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  1. #26

    Re: BG recommendations

    also /signed -- great list and good suggestions.
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  2. #27
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    Re: BG recommendations

    /signed

    Thanks for summarizing.

  3. #28
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    Thumbs up Re: BG recommendations

    Excellent summary Wyld
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  4. #29
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by IGolbezI View Post
    are you tanking or kiting at the end?
    Used to kite, switched to tanking. Our tanks have 10k and 9k morale respectively, and the backup tank last night had 8.5k.


    We had 2 minstrels and 2 captains healing the currently aggro'd tank full time, and yet durchest still can take down over 10k of morale in one swing (NOT a cleave, we all balled up near him to absorb those).


    It's complete nonsense.

  5. #30
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Signed and agreed. There is a definite line between challenging and annoying and I think now that the devs have tested it they should recognize what people are looking for and adjust.
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  6. #31
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir3 View Post
    Used to kite, switched to tanking. Our tanks have 10k and 9k morale respectively, and the backup tank last night had 8.5k.


    We had 2 minstrels and 2 captains healing the currently aggro'd tank full time, and yet durchest still can take down over 10k of morale in one swing (NOT a cleave, we all balled up near him to absorb those).


    It's complete nonsense.
    seems odd. do you have burg for disable?
    corruptions being kept low?
    LM -crit debuff on boss?
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  7. #32

    Re: BG recommendations

    I actually wouldn't get rid of the Sorc-warg, it just needs to be fixed so the stealth path mech isn't broken. It's one of the few interesting features of the trash mob progression and one of the rarest moments in raid pve where a hunter/tracker is actually useful, or would be if the dam thing just worked right.

    I also like the small amount of variability of the sorc pull, sometimes it's smooth as glass and sometimes it can be very awkward, even with the exact same actions, a little variation will forestall the stale feeling for at least a while.
    Last edited by Delirium; Mar 12 2010 at 11:11 AM.
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  8. #33
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    seems odd. do you have burg for disable?
    corruptions being kept low?
    LM -crit debuff on boss?
    Had burg last night. Sometimes we don't. The raiding portion of our kin keeps dwindling with every loss.

    Corruption removals are resisted a heck of a lot more than pre-book 1. We have a burst rotation of 2 RK's and 2 Hunters, as well as having the burg do an emergency burst, and everyone else tossing removals whenever they can. But there are times when we can't keep up do to crazy amounts of resists.

    No LM last night. Sometimes we do, but as I said, the raiding portion of our kin keeps dwindling. We could have had an LM if we sacrificed a captain, but we don't really feel that would have been a worthwhile tradeoff, since that would leave us with just one.

  9. #34
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Durchest should never hit you for 10k.

    If you put 2 people in front of Durchest (along with the tank) Cleave will hit for 2.2k amongst the three targets. I have heard of, but don't think I've seen, a Devestating Melee Attack that hits for 6-7k to one target. But if you're mitigating Cleave properly the DMA should never hit your tank when he's really vulnerable.

    Class makeup is key. Not having a Burg or Lore-master hurts. The Burg because of disable, mainly. The Lore-master for all the miss chance.

    I also firmly believe that MNS/MNS is NOT the way to go in BG. Can it work? Absolutely it can. But the ideal makeup is RK/MNS - especially if you're having trouble with incoming damage to a particular tank. The RK healer can maintain All Fates Entwined throughout the entire fight. That reduces all incoming damage [to the RK's group] by 10%. That is a huge benefit to mitigating the damage.

    So here's some numbers, including the Burglar.

    Burglar reduces base melee damage by 20%. We're at 80%. All Fates Entwined will reduce 10% of that 80%. That leaves you at 72%.

    Hard mode numbers are harder to do and I leave it to someone else. I don't know how the game would calculate. Whether it is a straight % reduction (so disable would take it from 175% -> 155%). Or if the reduction would be 20% of 175%. I'll leave that for someone else to answer.

    In short, class composition plays a key role in reducing incoming damage. If you're seeing too much spike damage ask yourself two questions: 1) do you have enough people absorbing DD and 2) are you using all avenues of damage down to help you out (healing RK, scrolls, burg, loremaster etc).
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  10. #35
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    Durchest should never hit you for 10k.

    If you put 2 people in front of Durchest (along with the tank) Cleave will hit for 2.2k amongst the three targets. I have heard of, but don't think I've seen, a Devestating Melee Attack that hits for 6-7k to one target. But if you're mitigating Cleave properly the DMA should never hit your tank when he's really vulnerable.
    We were running with, I believe, 6 people in melee last night for the distributed (but no Burglar). Our problem was we were getting the devastating hits on the tanks of ~6k, followed almost immediately by another attack of 2-3k (or vice versa). Even with full morale, that can be enough to kill the tank. And that doesn't account for a missed corruption or dread buildup either.

    With the emphasis this raid places on "Not Dying", and the stiff penalties across the raid for anyone being defeated, it shouldnt be possible to die just because you got unlucky. And to us right now, that's how it feels. Roll a die, oops you rolled poorly, tank is dead, cascade failure, raid wipe.
    Last edited by brasswire12; Mar 12 2010 at 12:05 PM.

  11. #36
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by brasswire12 View Post
    We were running with, I believe, 6 people in melee last night for the distributed (but no Burglar). Our problem was we were getting the devastating hits on the tanks of ~6k, followed almost immediately by another attack of 2-3k (or vice versa). Even with full morale, that can be enough to kill the tank. And that doesn't account for a missed corruption or dread buildup either.
    If you had a Burglar those numbers would be: 4800 and 1600 - 2400. Even if they occur back to back that is, at most, 4800+2400 = 7200. Then if you add in an RK healer that is further reduced to about 6480. That is survivable.

    As much as I hate to say it - and I've found it out the hard way - class composition is key to success in BG.

    edit: If you bring the correct raid composition, and still die, maybe you can chuck it up to bad luck. But if you don't take a Burglar, the only class that can put a pure -melee debuff on Durchest, you can't call his devestating melee attacks on you "bad luck"
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  12. #37
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    If you had a Burglar those numbers would be: 4800 and 1600 - 2400. Even if they occur back to back that is, at most, 4800+2400 = 7200. Then if you add in an RK healer that is further reduced to about 6480. That is survivable.

    As much as I hate to say it - and I've found it out the hard way - class composition is key to success in BG.

    edit: If you bring the correct raid composition, and still die, maybe you can chuck it up to bad luck. But if you don't take a Burglar, the only class that can put a pure -melee debuff on Durchest, you can't call his devestating melee attacks on you "bad luck"
    Sorry, I'm not trying to say that it's just "bad luck", only that is the way it feels right now. I totally realize and accept the fact that we may be doing things in a non-optimal way or that our strategies could use some tweaking.

    That being said, I do not like having an encounter balanced around a single debuff that can only be applied by a single class. But we will certainly see what we can do to get a Burglar in our next run. Unfortunately we have a very small number of raiding Burgs in our kin right now (hence why we didn't have one originally) so easier said than done, but we're certainly willing to give it a try.

  13. #38
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by brasswire12 View Post
    Sorry, I'm not trying to say that it's just "bad luck", only that is the way it feels right now. I totally realize and accept the fact that we may be doing things in a non-optimal way or that our strategies could use some tweaking.

    That being said, I do not like having an encounter balanced around a single debuff that can only be applied by a single class. But we will certainly see what we can do to get a Burglar in our next run. Unfortunately we have a very small number of raiding Burgs in our kin right now (hence why we didn't have one originally) so easier said than done, but we're certainly willing to give it a try.
    We both have beefs with the same thing. As I said in another thread I -hate- specific class compositions. I really wish we had the WoW approach - all classes are split into tank, heal, DPS with many hybrids. Obviously some fights favour one tank or one DPS over another, but in a general sense, and certainly non-raid content, any tank or any DPS or any healer can get it done.

    In LOTRO? Heh, choices are much more limited, and it really sucks sometimes.
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  14. #39
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    Re: BG recommendations

    We downed Durchest hard mode on our first night in after the changes, but it took us ..I think 3 wipes (i beleive it was the second attempt after the second clear of the gauntlet).

    The keys seem to be (this is for average groups, not the raiding aristocracy):
    1. Burg to keep damage Debuff on at all times.
    2. Well geared Guardian with lots of mit and melee defense and crit defense and morale. Fight is a survivability check.
    3. Well geared minstrel(s) who can heal a lot. I dont fully understand why, but I know there are huge differences in the amount of healing different mins put out.. I have noticed it on my champ, but since playing my guard I notice it even more. You need high quality mins. This fight is a healing check.
    4. Captain. You definitely need one in the tank group to buff their morale.

    And maybe an RK as the opposing healer. Though we dont generally do it, three healers will also help. Remeber its a healing/survivability check.
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  15. #40
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    Re: BG recommendations

    This raid favors rks over any other class and it saddens me.
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  16. #41
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    Durchest should never hit you for 10k.

    If you put 2 people in front of Durchest (along with the tank) Cleave will hit for 2.2k amongst the three targets. I have heard of, but don't think I've seen, a Devestating Melee Attack that hits for 6-7k to one target. But if you're mitigating Cleave properly the DMA should never hit your tank when he's really vulnerable.

    Class makeup is key. Not having a Burg or Lore-master hurts. The Burg because of disable, mainly. The Lore-master for all the miss chance.

    I also firmly believe that MNS/MNS is NOT the way to go in BG. Can it work? Absolutely it can. But the ideal makeup is RK/MNS - especially if you're having trouble with incoming damage to a particular tank. The RK healer can maintain All Fates Entwined throughout the entire fight. That reduces all incoming damage [to the RK's group] by 10%. That is a huge benefit to mitigating the damage.

    So here's some numbers, including the Burglar.

    Burglar reduces base melee damage by 20%. We're at 80%. All Fates Entwined will reduce 10% of that 80%. That leaves you at 72%.

    Hard mode numbers are harder to do and I leave it to someone else. I don't know how the game would calculate. Whether it is a straight % reduction (so disable would take it from 175% -> 155%). Or if the reduction would be 20% of 175%. I'll leave that for someone else to answer.

    In short, class composition plays a key role in reducing incoming damage. If you're seeing too much spike damage ask yourself two questions: 1) do you have enough people absorbing DD and 2) are you using all avenues of damage down to help you out (healing RK, scrolls, burg, loremaster etc).
    I am the leader of the group that you happen to be addressing here, so I just want to clear a few things up.

    We weren't getting 10k hits, but rather 6k-7k on "devastating melee attack" directly followed or preceded by cleave which still hits for 2.5k+ when distributed if you're in heavy dread like we were every time we wiped since we were on the last add 3 out of 4 attempts last night and on the 2nd to last add the other time. With out tanks being at 10k(guard) and 9.6k(warden) w/out dread you can handle this, but once dread takes them down to say 8.5k and 8k respectively (not sure of exact numbers since at that point I'm trying to just keep them alive) then they can effectively get 2-shotted before any heals can get to them after the first hit.

    Yes we had a burg w/ traited disable, and yes we had corruptions VERY under control w/ 3 people bursting plus 1 warden on full time removal and the other warden helping out, not to mention captains/minis and our champ helping when needed.

    I disagree about the mini/rk combo. That is what we USED TO USE before the patch when we had it on farm, and after failing 5 times with that make up we made the switch to mini/mini and it DEFINITELY went better. I think the ~1700 armor buff from the mini + the quick big heals are slightly more effective than what an RK healer can bring, but it's probably pretty close. We didn't have an LM last night which could have helped w/ crit chance and miss chance, but honestly I don't know how much of a difference it would have made.

    They just really need to tone down that "devastating melee attack" and I think this fight will be a nice challenge to start the instance but not flat out impossible to groups who don't have tanks w/ 150+ radiance. The reason the kins that were farming it for a LONG time before are not having trouble now has NOTHING to do w/ having a better strat and EVERYTHING to do w/ having more radiance, and I'm sorry but I would rather kill myself than farm easy mode for weeks on end just to try to get an extra 10-20 rad on every member or at least the tanks just so we can try HM again.
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  17. #42
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    Re: BG recommendations

    @davymaxwell

    Our tank (guard) last night only had 120 radiance. Obviously sample size is low but I don't know if radiance plays as much of a role as you may think.

    I also asked the guard if he ever saw devestating melee attack. He said no, and I don't remember seeing it myself.

    Especially in a raid environment -10% incoming damage > 1700 armour. There is absolutely no comparison. Plus having the -50% bubble every minute is extremely beneficial.

    I really would like to get some more information on devestating melee attack and what is triggering it. Maybe the guys from my group can correct me but I don't recall ever seeing it. Every time we saw a big hit it was always from Cleave.
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  18. #43
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    If you had a Burglar those numbers would be: 4800 and 1600 - 2400. Even if they occur back to back that is, at most, 4800+2400 = 7200. Then if you add in an RK healer that is further reduced to about 6480. That is survivable.

    As much as I hate to say it - and I've found it out the hard way - class composition is key to success in BG.

    edit: If you bring the correct raid composition, and still die, maybe you can chuck it up to bad luck. But if you don't take a Burglar, the only class that can put a pure -melee debuff on Durchest, you can't call his devestating melee attacks on you "bad luck"
    And if we don't have a burg available? "Oops too bad, no raid for you!" Is that what you're saying is an acceptable stance to take?

    The fact that you need such a specific makeup for a raid is ridiculous. People have lives. Organizing 12 people to get together to play a game is difficult. It often takes an hour or more to get it set up, after which we have a short time to play before it's time to go to bed. People have children and work to take care of.

    This is a very alienating raid.

  19. #44
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir3 View Post
    And if we don't have a burg available? "Oops too bad, no raid for you!" Is that what you're saying is an acceptable stance to take?

    The fact that you need such a specific makeup for a raid is ridiculous. People have lives. Organizing 12 people to get together to play a game is difficult. It often takes an hour or more to get it set up, after which we have a short time to play before it's time to go to bed. People have children and work to take care of.

    This is a very alienating raid.
    I'm sorry but I don't buy into this.

    My kinship like so many others have RL commitments. I, like many other kin leaders, recruit specific classes, organize, and coordinate raid times that work for everyone 90% of the time. I tend to over-recruit a bit too, in case someone is not available we can still go. We use web-based raid signup software. Organization takes less than 3 minutes.

    There are ways to make it work. I recognize in PUGs this is not an option, but that's also what static groups are for.

    Raiding kins have people who have lives, families, and other obligations. But we still get it done.

    Now if we move away from the organizational standpoint, let's look at the mechanics. If they were to create a raid that did not require a Guardian, a Lore-master, or whatever else, do you realize how dumbed down it would be? It would go something like this: well, groups may not have a dedicated tank or a lore-master to use fire-lore, so we have to tone down outgoing damage significantly so these groups can do it.

    No one wants that. It would mean a raid full of turtles. :/

    Restrictive class makeups, though I don't like it, are necessary to ensure sufficient difficulty within the current context of the game.
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  20. #45
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    I'm sorry but I don't buy into this.

    My kinship like so many others have RL commitments. I, like many other kin leaders, recruit specific classes, organize, and coordinate raid times that work for everyone 90% of the time. I tend to over-recruit a bit too, in case someone is not available we can still go. We use web-based raid signup software. Organization takes less than 3 minutes.

    There are ways to make it work. I recognize in PUGs this is not an option, but that's also what static groups are for.

    Raiding kins have people who have lives, families, and other obligations. But we still get it done.

    Now if we move away from the organizational standpoint, let's look at the mechanics. If they were to create a raid that did not require a Guardian, a Lore-master, or whatever else, do you realize how dumbed down it would be? It would go something like this: well, groups may not have a dedicated tank or a lore-master to use fire-lore, so we have to tone down outgoing damage significantly so these groups can do it.

    No one wants that. It would mean a raid full of turtles. :/

    Restrictive class makeups, though I don't like it, are necessary to ensure sufficient difficulty within the current context of the game.
    Whatever.....I should be able to roll through anything with my RK zippity zappity! Why should I have to bring a tank or even worse, a worthless burg...I dps and heal....I have no patience for the inferior lore based classes.

    You know what...just give me Inspired Greatness and I'll do BG myself...yeah...
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  21. #46
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    Re: BG recommendations

    This raid has made half my kin quit the game. It is boring and horribly made. I would greatly welcome all these changes.
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  22. #47
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Please stop telling me you "never see this devastating melee attack"! You can say it 'til you're blue in the face but it OBVIOUSLY exists as I am not the only one reporting it and it is clearly causing issues for many kins and static groups alike. If you're gonna post then post a way to avoid or deal with it, don't just say "oh you must be doing it wrong because it doesn't happen to us!"

    As far as group make up is concerned I agree with you for the most part, but here's what I think. Ever ROLE should be required to complete a raid, but not every CLASS. There are at least 2 classes for every role in this game, and I believe that as long as you fill those then it should be reasonable to complete the content. Should it be a little harder on "non-ideal" make-ups? Sure! But it should not be flat out impossible!

    It's not like we're bringing in an unbalanced group.

    2mins
    2cappies
    2wardens
    2hunters
    1guard
    1champ
    1burg
    1RK

    That was our make-up last night and every time it was working perfectly and then we'd be down to 1 HM add w/ Durchest under 30k and he'd 2-shot one of the tanks. It's stupid! Sure it would have been nice to have an LM to replace 1 warden but some nights we just don't have that option and it's absurd that despite doing everything right we can't beat it because our group make-up isn't 100% IDEAL! It's about 95% ideal, but sorry you need 100% ideal to win. Stupid... Just plain stupid!

    And by the way, you can tell me having an RK is better, but as I already said in my previous post we had a MUCH easier time and survived MUCH longer in 4 attempts w/ min/min combo compared to 5 attempts w/ min/rk combo. Sure it's a small sample size, but the difference seemed pretty drastic to me. Not saying min/rk CAN'T work, but we prefer it this way as of right now. I'm sure you'll tell me I'm wrong though...
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  23. #48
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    Re: BG recommendations

    I did not say DMA does not happen. I simply said I've never seen it and I'm curious for what triggers it. If one group never sees it, and another group does, that means there is something one group is doing that the other isn't that is causing it.

    I heal this fight often. Staring at green bars. I never seen an example of what is being reported as DMA. Whenever the tank gets a massive hit, we look at the combat log, and it's always Cleave.
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  24. #49
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    Re: BG recommendations

    As far as the devastating melee attacks, the one thing a RK brings to the table over a mini is Word of Exhaltation which is an amazing skill for a RK, if you have a RK healing any time your tank gets blasted with the melee attack you can save him by using Word of Exhaltation. HM was definitely a little rougher for us than pre patch but worse case scenario you can have a RK swap to healing and have 3 healers assuming you have 2 Minstrel's already once you get to the HM adds to help get over the hump especially if your down to the last add. It's not a definitive way to avoid the attack but it's something.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000dd969/signature.png]Squad[/charsig]
    Regulators-65 Rune-keeper-Nemesis
    XBox gamertag: L Squizzie

  25. #50
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    250

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by davymaxwell View Post
    Please stop telling me you "never see this devastating melee attack"! You can say it 'til you're blue in the face but it OBVIOUSLY exists as I am not the only one reporting it and it is clearly causing issues for many kins and static groups alike. If you're gonna post then post a way to avoid or deal with it, don't just say "oh you must be doing it wrong because it doesn't happen to us!"

    As far as group make up is concerned I agree with you for the most part, but here's what I think. Ever ROLE should be required to complete a raid, but not every CLASS. There are at least 2 classes for every role in this game, and I believe that as long as you fill those then it should be reasonable to complete the content. Should it be a little harder on "non-ideal" make-ups? Sure! But it should not be flat out impossible!

    It's not like we're bringing in an unbalanced group.

    2mins
    2cappies
    2wardens
    2hunters
    1guard
    1champ
    1burg
    1RK

    That was our make-up last night and every time it was working perfectly and then we'd be down to 1 HM add w/ Durchest under 30k and he'd 2-shot one of the tanks. It's stupid! Sure it would have been nice to have an LM to replace 1 warden but some nights we just don't have that option and it's absurd that despite doing everything right we can't beat it because our group make-up isn't 100% IDEAL! It's about 95% ideal, but sorry you need 100% ideal to win. Stupid... Just plain stupid!

    And by the way, you can tell me having an RK is better, but as I already said in my previous post we had a MUCH easier time and survived MUCH longer in 4 attempts w/ min/min combo compared to 5 attempts w/ min/rk combo. Sure it's a small sample size, but the difference seemed pretty drastic to me. Not saying min/rk CAN'T work, but we prefer it this way as of right now. I'm sure you'll tell me I'm wrong though...
    How is 1 grd and 2 wrds a balanced group?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000018bb48/01008/signature.png]Certhonion[/charsig]
    [URL]http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/haradel[/URL]

 

 
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