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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Christchurch New Zealand
    Posts
    3,569

    BG recommendations

    Just incase constructive feedback is being lost in the sea of complaints at the moment, here's some things that need attention in BG.

    1. you guessed it the last sorcerers+warg pull prior to twins.
    Wiping our way to victory is not fun, with trash being on a respawn timer every wipe hurts. Yes sometimes this area can be cleared without wipe.
    The warg often gets bugged... please look into his pathing.
    Personally I would just get rid of the warg altogether.
    2. fear+yellow eye on LT and fear+purple eye or the jackpot fear+purple eye+yellow eye.
    A logic check needs to be in place to prevent these from happening. Even with solid execution and strategy, these just add too much randomness to the encounter and do in many cases 'force' a wipe.
    3. broken record... respawns.
    These just add insult to injury. Even on durchest 45mins is too short. A few deaths on durchest and an afk before starting him and attempts can be limited to 1 or 2 before its time to reclear the gauntlet.
    Yes gauntlet can be done in 15-20mins, but the groups that don't get durchest first attempt often take longer in gauntlet.
    This sort of thing is greatly hindering people from focusing on the meat of the raid which is hardmode attempts and actually getting to see the LT regularly let alone beat him.
    Lock2+3 are also quite taxing with high health on armors and then wight count... respawns are unnecessary addition.
    4. loot.
    the 5 piece set bonuses for all classes need to be functional. It's bad enough these are the worst set bonuses to date, situation is compounded by non functional bonuses. bug reports have been filed. Thanks graal for acknowledgement.
    5. more on loot.
    not going to beat the dead horse re purple raid gear. Symbols should be guaranteed drop from hardmodes. The chance to actually craft something that is an upgrade is low. It's just not intuitive when one considers effort + risk vs reward.
    It wouldn't hurt for trash in lock 2+3 to drop some valuables... ixp for example.
    6. Resists.
    they are up and it is having significant ripple effect. It can be the last straw as encounters were already brutal prior to vol3bk1.
    It's hindering burgs from being effective corruption removers, its impacting tank utility and threat building skills, it's adding to risk of pretty much every encounter due to corruptions and unforgiving dynamics (sorcerers).
    Part of the solution imo is removing -skill level effect penalty from dread.
    7. polish,
    Death in each lock should send person to beginning of lock not to entrance to BG, unnecessary timesink

    Especially when one thinks of the advantage of ranged vs melee dps in boss encounters.
    I don't have the answers but the causes of problem are the following:
    Fast stacking and powerful corruptions (RK/HNT > CHN/BRG)
    Massive melee attacks (Cargaraf and fellbeast)
    Nasty melee debuffs, forcing melee to constantly move/reposition (Morgaraf and fellbeast)
    No inductions to interupt (less need for CHN/BRG)
    Mobs immune to CJs (less need for BRG)
    Aoe dps only useful for gauntlet and wights.

    The hard question needs to be asked by turbine... just how much can we expect from the average raider. We know there is a segment of players who will log in and press on no matter what, but for many others they play for fun and very important to note is that people who were ploughing through previous raid content are now either struggling or increasingly frustrated.
    Last edited by wyldcyde; Mar 26 2010 at 05:35 PM.
    [center][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/wyldcyde"]WyldCyde[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Chn [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/rafael"]Rafael[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 LM [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/delenn"]Delenn[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Hnt [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/tendai"]Tendai[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 RK [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/weirdo"]Weirdo[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Brg [/color][COLOR="Gray"]secret[/COLOR] [COLOR="Cyan"]65 Hnt[/COLOR][/center]
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  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    433

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    Just incase constructive feedback is being lost in the sea of complaints at the moment, here's some things that need attention in BG.

    1. you guessed it the last sorcerers+warg pull prior to twins.
    Wiping our way to victory is not fun, with trash being on a respawn timer every wipe hurts. Yes sometimes this area can be cleared without wipe.
    The warg often gets bugged... please look into his pathing.
    Personally I would just get rid of the warg altogether.
    2. fear+yellow eye on LT and fear+purple eye or the jackpot fear+purple eye+yellow eye.
    A logic check needs to be in place to prevent these from happening. Even with solid execution and strategy, these just add too much randomness to the encounter and do in many cases 'force' a wipe.
    3. broken record... respawns.
    These just add insult to injury. Even on durchest 45mins is too short. A few deaths on durchest and an afk before starting him and attempts can be limited to 1 or 2 before its time to reclear the gauntlet.
    Yes gauntlet can be done in 15-20mins, but the groups that don't get durchest first attempt often take longer in gauntlet.
    This sort of thing is greatly hindering people from focusing on the meat of the raid which is hardmode attempts and actually getting to see the LT regularly let alone beat him.
    4. loot.
    the 5 piece set bonuses for all classes need to be functional. It's bad enough these are the worst set bonuses to date, situation is compounded by non functional bonuses. bug reports have been filed. Thanks graal for acknowledgement.
    5. more on loot.
    not going to beat the dead horse re purple raid gear. Symbols should be guaranteed drop from hardmodes. The chance to actually craft something that is an upgrade is low. It's just not intuitive when one considers effort + risk vs reward.
    It wouldn't hurt for trash in lock 2+3 to drop some valuables... ixp for example.
    6. Resists.
    they are up and it is having significant ripple effect. It can be the last straw as encounters were already brutal prior to vol3bk1.
    It's hindering burgs from being effective corruption removers, its impacting tank utility and threat building skills, it's adding to risk of pretty much every encounter due to corruptions and unforgiving dynamics (sorcerers).
    Part of the solution imo is removing -skill level effect penalty from dread.
    7. polish, especially when one thinks of the advantage of ranged vs melee dps in boss encounters.
    I don't have the answers but the causes of problem are the following:
    Fast stacking and powerful corruptions (RK/HNT > CHN/BRG)
    Massive melee attacks (Cargaraf and fellbeast)
    Nasty melee debuffs, forcing melee to constantly move/reposition (Morgaraf and fellbeast)
    No inductions to interupt (less need for CHN/BRG)
    Mobs immune to CJs (less need for BRG)
    Aoe dps only useful for gauntlet and wights.

    The hard question needs to be asked by turbine... just how much can we expect from the average raider. We know there is a segment of players who will log in and press on no matter what, but for many others they play for fun and very important to note is that people who were ploughing through previous raid content are now either struggling or increasingly frustrated.
    QFT! Thanks for consolidating things here Wyld! Your posts are ALWAYS appreciated by me and I'm sure many others. You are one of the people in the community that I think Turbine is insane for not offering a job!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000069a6c/signature.png]Eletheian[/charsig]
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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,979

    Re: BG recommendations

    +rep Wyld, great list.

    Did we ever have a list this long of things fundamentally wrong with the Rift? Could be I'm pining for the "good ol' days," but I sincerely doubt it. The overall shoddiness of BG is well highlighted here.
    solien
    armor-plated since SoA alpha 3
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    Brampton, Ontario, CANADA
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Well said and fully agreed.
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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    1,801

    Re: BG recommendations

    /signed, thanks Wyldcyde.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    402

    Re: BG recommendations

    /agree

    /signed
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  7. #7

    Re: BG recommendations

    +1 rep! good summary

    About point 1. We haven't wiped there in a long time, we found a way to do that pull fairly doable (I wont say easy)...but we run with 2 LMs....
    But yes, that pull is harder than Durchest and also the bugged warg is just annoying. You have to send someone to pull it to reset it, "fixing" the pathing and dying in the process.

    100% agree with all the rest and probably add to the list reducing the amount of trash (or reduce the armours and wrights health to make it going faster). Just a time wasting thing that doesn't give you ANY rewards
    [color=#F84FFF][i]“I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend”[/i][/color]
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  8. #8

    Re: BG recommendations

    /signed

    But whats the point? This thread will be ignored just like the hundreds out there. And all we are doing is wasting time. I'm really getting tired of being treated like another number here.

    I would like system where the Devs would give us some options based on feedback and the community would vote to decide. The vote would only be valid if we can get a significant numbers of votes/signatures.

    For example if we can get 5000 votes saying that HM should drop a symbol, I would say that is a pretty darn good reason to put 1 in.

    @Devs (if you exist) Please look into a system like this where there is some kind of a feedback loop to the system. Thanks.
    Yunaleska - 65 Hunter | Tiedus - 65 RK | Yunileska - 65 Captain | Cefiroth - 65 Burg

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  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia,PA
    Posts
    498

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    Just incase constructive feedback is being lost in the sea of complaints at the moment, here's some things that need attention in BG.

    1. you guessed it the last sorcerers+warg pull prior to twins.
    Wiping our way to victory is not fun, with trash being on a respawn timer every wipe hurts. Yes sometimes this area can be cleared without wipe.
    The warg often gets bugged... please look into his pathing.
    Personally I would just get rid of the warg altogether.
    2. fear+yellow eye on LT and fear+purple eye or the jackpot fear+purple eye+yellow eye.
    A logic check needs to be in place to prevent these from happening. Even with solid execution and strategy, these just add too much randomness to the encounter and do in many cases 'force' a wipe.
    3. broken record... respawns.
    These just add insult to injury. Even on durchest 45mins is too short. A few deaths on durchest and an afk before starting him and attempts can be limited to 1 or 2 before its time to reclear the gauntlet.
    Yes gauntlet can be done in 15-20mins, but the groups that don't get durchest first attempt often take longer in gauntlet.
    This sort of thing is greatly hindering people from focusing on the meat of the raid which is hardmode attempts and actually getting to see the LT regularly let alone beat him.
    Lock2+3 are also quite taxing with high health on armors and then wight count... respawns are unnecessary addition.
    4. loot.
    the 5 piece set bonuses for all classes need to be functional. It's bad enough these are the worst set bonuses to date, situation is compounded by non functional bonuses. bug reports have been filed. Thanks graal for acknowledgement.
    5. more on loot.
    not going to beat the dead horse re purple raid gear. Symbols should be guaranteed drop from hardmodes. The chance to actually craft something that is an upgrade is low. It's just not intuitive when one considers effort + risk vs reward.
    It wouldn't hurt for trash in lock 2+3 to drop some valuables... ixp for example.
    6. Resists.
    they are up and it is having significant ripple effect. It can be the last straw as encounters were already brutal prior to vol3bk1.
    It's hindering burgs from being effective corruption removers, its impacting tank utility and threat building skills, it's adding to risk of pretty much every encounter due to corruptions and unforgiving dynamics (sorcerers).
    Part of the solution imo is removing -skill level effect penalty from dread.
    7. polish, especially when one thinks of the advantage of ranged vs melee dps in boss encounters.
    I don't have the answers but the causes of problem are the following:
    Fast stacking and powerful corruptions (RK/HNT > CHN/BRG)
    Massive melee attacks (Cargaraf and fellbeast)
    Nasty melee debuffs, forcing melee to constantly move/reposition (Morgaraf and fellbeast)
    No inductions to interupt (less need for CHN/BRG)
    Mobs immune to CJs (less need for BRG)
    Aoe dps only useful for gauntlet and wights.

    The hard question needs to be asked by turbine... just how much can we expect from the average raider. We know there is a segment of players who will log in and press on no matter what, but for many others they play for fun and very important to note is that people who were ploughing through previous raid content are now either struggling or increasingly frustrated.
    I think pretty much anyone who has ran BG will agree with this but it's such a ball breaker when there's obvious flaws/glitches/bugs that go months with no fixes. I may be wrong but I think at least a few of the issues were reported during the beat testing. *** is the point of a beta test if nothing gets fixed and everyone gets ignored. The trash just goes way too far, it's obvious they tried to flood the raid with tedious amounts of trash pulls to extend the time spent in there. There's as much trash as rift or DN but half the bosses, the respawns are a joke.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000dd969/signature.png]Squad[/charsig]
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  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Christchurch New Zealand
    Posts
    3,569

    Re: BG recommendations

    Thanks
    I'm aware mileage varies from group to group. Some groups are dealing with BG fine, motivation is high, frustration low.

    The kinship I am in will adapt ok and continue clearing BG, but I want this raid to be a success for many people.

    Hopefully we will see some positive patch notes soonish.
    Last edited by wyldcyde; Mar 11 2010 at 07:46 PM.
    [center][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/wyldcyde"]WyldCyde[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Chn [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/rafael"]Rafael[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 LM [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/delenn"]Delenn[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Hnt [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/tendai"]Tendai[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 RK [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/weirdo"]Weirdo[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Brg [/color][COLOR="Gray"]secret[/COLOR] [COLOR="Cyan"]65 Hnt[/COLOR][/center]
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  11. #11

    Re: BG recommendations

    Guys plz don't quote the full suggestions like that. We are all talking about the same thing here. Not sure about you guys, but when I see a thread full of quotes and no real content i turn my eyes away. All you are doing is decreasing the value of the thread.
    Last edited by Yunaleska; Mar 11 2010 at 08:03 PM.
    Yunaleska - 65 Hunter | Tiedus - 65 RK | Yunileska - 65 Captain | Cefiroth - 65 Burg

    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000001bf533/01001/signature.png]Tiedus[/charsig]

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    1,063

    Re: BG recommendations

    So much truth in this thread. /agreed on everything wyld posted.

    My two cents on the last pull before the Twins:

    1. Move the right Sorcerer a few steps toward the middle of the hall. He's currently out of LOS because of the scaffolding, requiring the mezzer to get closer than the one on the left.

    2. Move the armors to the top of the stairs, or to the door to the twins, so mez-pulling the sorcerers doesn't activate one or both.

    3. Extend the warg's pathing all the way up to the top of the stairs behind the Sorcerers.

    3.a. Fix the damn stealth and warg pathing already.
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  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3,924

    Re: BG recommendations

    On Lt, I think Purple eye + Fear is something a group should be able to deal with. I see this as a legitimate difficulty mechanic.

    Similarly, Purple eye + Yellow eye can be dealt with (probably happened a dozen times during our 1.0 HM kill, and since only tanks got purple eyes then, the Lt was usually aggroed on the recipient too).

    The only real "Checkmate" scenario is Yellow Eye + Fear. Yellow eye means you must keep moving or die, and fear means you can't move.

    A lesser issue on the Lt is adds randomly pathing out of the arena and resetting the whole fight. While this can be avoided (don't die) the adds should not be able to path through the closed gate.

    Finally, I think retreating to the last boss cleared, rather than the start of the instance, would be a very welcome change (especially if trash respawn isn't removed). 11 people waiting almost 10 minutes for a rezzer to make it all the way back up the stairs isn't fun, period. If you have beaten the Twins, you should revive in that room. Otherwise if you have beaten Durchest, you should revive in his room.

  14. #14

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunaleska View Post
    Guys plz don't quote the full suggestions like that. We are all talking about the same thing here. Not sure about you guys, but when I see a thread full of quotes and no real content i turn my eyes away. All you are doing is decreasing the value of the thread.
    simple solution - scroll down. it's not decreasing the value of the thread, just makes it annoying lol

    anyway good list and agree. the warg and eye/fear are just dumb.

    how many of us are just not signing up for raids anymore? just curious.

    and ^ do you really have to make people run all the way back up the tower? there are many useless time sinks in the game, this one is not only a time sink but a deterrent to casual raiding kins trying to learn content. there are a few things in this raid are just a deterrent for raiding. should probably fix those at some point or acknowledge them or something. idk.
    Last edited by IGolbezI; Mar 11 2010 at 11:53 PM.
    Kraken, Thesungodra

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Christchurch New Zealand
    Posts
    3,569

    Re: BG recommendations

    my annoyance with that final sorc/warg pull was highlighted during our raid tonight.
    hardmode durchest and twins on first attempt but 2 wipes in sorcerer area, was kinda lol. Though wiping on trash is common in raids looking back, its just that was usually due to lack of player concentration not suspect design.
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  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    my annoyance with that final sorc/warg pull was highlighted during our raid tonight.
    hardmode durchest and twins on first attempt but 2 wipes in sorcerer area, was kinda lol. Though wiping on trash is common in raids looking back, its just that was usually due to lack of player concentration not suspect design.
    The funny part was, first pull, 1 sorcerer and 1 armour come, as they should. Then after the accident with Am, I pull the sorcerer and we get both of them (2 sorcerers).
    Last edited by Insan0; Mar 12 2010 at 02:21 AM.
    .
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  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    575

    Re: BG recommendations

    9th wipe in a row on Durchest HM now. We haven't gotten HM since Book 1 came out, and we had it on farm before. Basically my entire kin said they're going to quit and go to SW:KOTOR when it comes out for sure now, because they're just so sick of how ridiculous this raid is.


    Good work there, Turbine.



    /sigh

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    5,862

    Re: BG recommendations

    Been trying to figure out the best solution. All I've come up with is remove gloom permanently from raids and change the resists of 'skull' type mobs.
    .

    You currently have 1337 reputation point(s).

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    222

    Re: BG recommendations

    /signed

    Thanks for summarizing.
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  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,196

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir3 View Post
    9th wipe in a row on Durchest HM now. We haven't gotten HM since Book 1 came out, and we had it on farm before. Basically my entire kin said they're going to quit and go to SW:KOTOR when it comes out for sure now, because they're just so sick of how ridiculous this raid is.


    Good work there, Turbine.
    Same situation here. It's funny because prior to V3:B1 we had Durchest on farm and the twins were a challenge. Now we've pretty much given up on Durchest hard mode, tonight we barely got him down in easy mode. But we've gotten a lot better at the Twins hard mode, mostly just through experience.

    We've only seen the LT a few times because it's such a boring, ridiculous slog up the tower. Too much trash and too few locks. Too much waiting for pathing and rezzers, and too many points where you just fail if you're unlucky. Our kin is among the top 3 or 4 raiding kins on our server and we just don't care anymore. We still run it once a week because we're raiders, that's what we do, but we don't even really enjoy it and the loot is complete garbage.

  21. #21

    Re: BG recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir3 View Post
    9th wipe in a row on Durchest HM now. We haven't gotten HM since Book 1 came out, and we had it on farm before. Basically my entire kin said they're going to quit and go to SW:KOTOR when it comes out for sure now, because they're just so sick of how ridiculous this raid is.


    Good work there, Turbine.



    /sigh
    are you tanking or kiting at the end?
    Kraken, Thesungodra

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Christchurch New Zealand
    Posts
    3,569

    Re: BG recommendations

    i think for some groups realistically to get durchest hardmode back on farm 3 things need to happen.

    1. more robust strategy to deal with the two key issues, threat and lightning add.
    We have modified how we approach those two challenges. YMMV

    2. radiance and gear... there is just a lot of incoming damage and a few resists at wrong time can be nasty.
    not fun to need to farm normal modes or DN i know

    problem with just doing normal modes is thats decent amount of work for very little reward

    3. class makeup. 2 captains, 2 RKs, plenty of burst removers.

    No I am not saying l2p... just that unless turbine makes changes there are still ways to adapt but as others have said it can get to a point people just throw in the towel.

    understandably so as I know people who have wiped more on durchest recently than I could handle... reminds me of how failure on watcher2.0 impacted groups.
    Last edited by wyldcyde; Mar 12 2010 at 03:34 AM.
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  23. #23

    Re: BG recommendations

    /Signed.

    Excellent suggestions.

    Turbine take note: raid sign-ups are declining among people I know, despite there being more folks with enough radiance and experience to raid. Dissatisfaction is higher than I've ever seen it, FWIW.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000040133/01008/signature.png]Ardeth[/charsig]
    [CENTER][SIZE="2"][COLOR="Cyan"]Ardeth --75 minstrel; Mirianor--75 RK; Philippa--75 captain;[/CENTER][CENTER]Brynna--68 burg; Ellaril--72 hunter; Irulan--67 loremaster[/COLOR][/SIZE][/CENTER]

  24. #24
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    136

    Re: BG recommendations

    Just to add another recommendation:

    Document changes in the patch note.

    All this shock wouldn't happen and cause all this if Turbine had documented the changes on the bosses in 3.1 patch note.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b000000039ea9/01008/signature.png]Enoahce[/charsig]

    [size=1][color=#FFBF00][b]Echa[/b][/color] - Elf Chick Warden[/size]

  25. #25

    Re: BG recommendations

    I agree here Lots of room for very needed improvement.
    But since ive stopped running BG because of this bs I seriously doubt they will ever fix it
    He that breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.

 

 
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