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  1. #101

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartare View Post
    well the watcher 3.0 was 6manned by a few groups and we regularly 8 or 9maned it on level. it was LM tanked on lvl as well as burg tanked and hunter(mellee) tanked. All of these factors imo make it easy to the point of being boring when run with 12ppl that know whats going on. You could walk in and do it with just about any class make up and be successful. IMO with a bit of practise this raid was too easy in this version.

    Now look at BG. Boss 1 and 2 has been done undermanned. Your a little bit more restricted on class make up, but nowhere near what people think. There is nothing in either of the fights mechanics that is difficult to work around. Boss 1 is basically just swapping agro on tanks and making sure only one of them is geting hit at a time. Yes they get hit hard sometimes but nothing bringing an extra healer cant fix. People complain that durchest HM cant be done or they wipe cus do not fall to lightning didnt work. Yes it suxs if a skill doesnt work but its been posted enough so u should realise that and think of other ways around it. have a lm pop stun immunity on healers and tanks. look at when ur pulling that add. pull it earlier in the fight when durchest is doing less dmg etc.
    Boss 2 is even simpler. the only thing that can really cause trouble is if people dont pay attention to what eyes they get and where they put them. or on the fire guy if ppl dont watch there bleed and switch agro etc accordingly. this doesnt come down to being an elite player its just paying attention and knowing the fight. both get better with practise.

    Thats why i dont consider boss 1 and 2 hard to complete. The LT is a different story and i never said the LT is easy. it is a challanging fight to get the kill with the big luck factor involved with the yellow eye and fear. but as i said if that gets fixed i expect alot more groups will be geting em kills at least.

    The one thing that makes boss 1 and 2 harder is going in undergeared.

    Thats just my opinion and im not going to be changing my mind anytime soon. i just get frustrated when threads like this get posted a week after the changes were made and people saying there ready to quit cus they didnt get the kill this week. I could understand if after a month or so a majority of groups were still struggling then yes, by all means it probly does need to be looked at again but after the first week or two id be working towards geting the kill instead of complaining.
    I appreciate your response -- I do. You IMO are raiding with a very elite group of people where everyone is beyond excellent at what they do. Watcher 3.0 was NOT easy -- just ask the kins full of good people who were simply unable to get it defeated. Yes I had it on farm too -- but I've also been in countless 6 man groups talking to someone who only experienced defeat with the encounter who was well equipped and knew their class. Now we can reply back *** l2play == but it doesn't change what IMO is a fact that the encounter had enough going on in it that missing a beat resulted in a wipe. The encounter was unforgiving to mistakes -- sure if all 12 people don't make a mistake the encounter feels like a /faceroll -- so does Durchest normal mode and same with Twins -- they all feel incredibly easy when everything goes next to perfectly. However, the encounters are very unforgiving to mistakes. Durchest goes beyond Watcher 3.0 IMO with an unforgiving death penalty.

    As per 6 manning watcher 3.0 -- that does nothing at all to prove it was easy. It just shows that 6 very very good players who knew the encounters exceedingly well and who were in top gear could achieve success. Same thing was true about Balrog -- another encounter i would put on the *medium* level.

    The issue with your perception that these encounters are easy is that it totally slaps the folks in the face who endured 70, 80 , 90 wipes from watcher 3.0. Yah yah -- welcome to raiding ...learn to play.

    Perhaps you would prefer the words hard or challenging be changed to unforgiving? Again you seem to misunderstand hard to mean impossible so unforgiving may be a more palatable word choice for you.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    you touch on a good point.

    reality is that from a developer perspective "hard" should be defined by relative success and foot traffic of playerbase.

    If people are avoiding it and only a few groups are beating it with minimal fuss then it's hard content no matter that xyz raiding kin can 6man it.

    tbh though some of the mechanics feel like an intentional way to extend life of content like with watcher2.0 and i am expecting things to be made less brutal when next cluster is released.

    I was very glad to hear friends of mine who had wiped repeatedly over 2 or 3 sessions last weekend, had success with durchest hardmode this weekend.
    They managed to adapt, no that doesn't mean all is well but it is good to know its not just hardcore/elite/watever raiding groups who have a hope at hardmodes.
    The hoops one has to jump to get to that point is still too much though.
    Last edited by wyldcyde; Mar 14 2010 at 10:37 PM.
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  3. #103
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    tbh though some of the mechanics feel like an intentional way to extend life of content like
    Don't mean to be rude but... no sh1t? Guldur Lights? Really? Force fear the entire raid for 10 seconds. That's not a time sink at all.
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  4. #104
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    Don't mean to be rude but...
    we are in agreement. i was just feeling generous with my words.
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  5. #105

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    Don't mean to be rude but... no sh1t? Guldur Lights? Really? Force fear the entire raid for 10 seconds. That's not a time sink at all.
    Yep it honestly doesn't get any more obvious than that mob -- *sigh* the worst mob in all MMO's ..ever.
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  6. #106
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    Don't mean to be rude but... no sh1t? Guldur Lights? Really? Force fear the entire raid for 10 seconds. That's not a time sink at all.
    Everyone should put that in their sig...

    BG isn't hard strategy wise, just artifically inflated. Orange mobs, corruption stacking with lots of resists, high gloom, high morale mobs to extend fights and hence chance of something going wrong.

    Set all mobs to 65 whille keeping hope positive and all kins would be cake walking it in. (apart from the spin the wheel who'll die next LT)
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  7. #107
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartare View Post
    The LT is a different story and i never said the LT is easy. it is a challanging fight to get the kill with the big luck factor involved with the yellow eye and fear.
    So, in your opinion, a hard fight is one where luck plays a significant role - ie, if you get unlucky, it really doesn't matter how well you know the fight, you're going to wipe. Maybe I'm misreading your posts, but I really don't see how that's fun...or at least, I don't see how it's fun when you're working with a time limit before all the trash respawns. As Lestache said, and I agree, BG is extremely unforgiving - which, in and of itself, isn't necessarily a bad thing. But you combine that unforgiving aspect of the boss fights (especially the HM versions of Durchest and Twins, which are so heavily dependent on radiance) with the Gauntlet and trash mob respawns, and you're pretty much guaranteeing frustration.

    Of course, one could argue that this raid is designed to frustrate most people, which guarantees that only a few will ever beat it. I never played WoW, but I heard about it back in the uber-hardcore days, and I'm really not interested in that type of raiding in LotRO.
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  8. #108

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartare View Post
    well the watcher 3.0 was 6manned by a few groups and we regularly 8 or 9maned it on level. it was LM tanked on lvl as well as burg tanked and hunter(mellee) tanked. All of these factors imo make it easy to the point of being boring when run with 12ppl that know whats going on. You could walk in and do it with just about any class make up and be successful. IMO with a bit of practise this raid was too easy in this version.

    Now look at BG. Boss 1 and 2 has been done undermanned. Your a little bit more restricted on class make up, but nowhere near what people think. There is nothing in either of the fights mechanics that is difficult to work around. Boss 1 is basically just swapping agro on tanks and making sure only one of them is geting hit at a time. Yes they get hit hard sometimes but nothing bringing an extra healer cant fix. People complain that durchest HM cant be done or they wipe cus do not fall to lightning didnt work. Yes it suxs if a skill doesnt work but its been posted enough so u should realise that and think of other ways around it. have a lm pop stun immunity on healers and tanks. look at when ur pulling that add. pull it earlier in the fight when durchest is doing less dmg etc.
    Boss 2 is even simpler. the only thing that can really cause trouble is if people dont pay attention to what eyes they get and where they put them. or on the fire guy if ppl dont watch there bleed and switch agro etc accordingly. this doesnt come down to being an elite player its just paying attention and knowing the fight. both get better with practise.

    Thats why i dont consider boss 1 and 2 hard to complete. The LT is a different story and i never said the LT is easy. it is a challanging fight to get the kill with the big luck factor involved with the yellow eye and fear. but as i said if that gets fixed i expect alot more groups will be geting em kills at least.

    The one thing that makes boss 1 and 2 harder is going in undergeared.

    Thats just my opinion and im not going to be changing my mind anytime soon. i just get frustrated when threads like this get posted a week after the changes were made and people saying there ready to quit cus they didnt get the kill this week. I could understand if after a month or so a majority of groups were still struggling then yes, by all means it probly does need to be looked at again but after the first week or two id be working towards geting the kill instead of complaining.
    Again, I don't think you see the point. 12 of the same people have been raiding together for 7 months. All of us have our full DN gear and now over half have 2 or more pieces. WE started BG as one group, that group had boss 1 and 2 down hard more and was working on LT easy mode. If we were able to do that with that class of players than, why do we have to replace them now. Some people like playing with kins, some like to pug and some, like us, like raiding with our friends. And again, we would not mind the changes if we knew there were changes coming in the first place.

  9. #109
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    We've been experiencing the Do Not Fall To ___ bug. The first couple times we didn't realize it was a bug, but by the 3rd or 4th time it clearly was not good RKs suddenly failing post-patch after being fine for weeks straight pre-patch. What we've experienced is that the RK in the group with the tanks always seems to die to the storm attack. Sure, we can rez the RK and continue with Durchest HM fine after that, but he'll get a heal, making this an annoying bug. Do Not Fall appears to work fine for the rest of the group, but the RK in question always dies. Other than that, haven't noticed any changes to Durchest/Twins.
    Last edited by Aestis25; Mar 15 2010 at 03:11 PM.
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  10. #110
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aestis25 View Post
    We've been experiencing the Do Not Fall To ___ bug. The first couple times we didn't realize it was a bug, but by the 3rd or 4th time it clearly was not good RKs suddenly failing post-patch after being fine for weeks straight pre-patch. What we've experienced is that the RK in the group with the tanks always seems to die to the storm attack. Sure, we can rez and complete Durchest HM fine after that, but this is an annoying bug. Do Not Fall appears to work fine for the rest of the group, but the RK in question always dies. Other than that, haven't noticed any changes to Durchest/Twins.
    thats very reassuring to know in the sense that if your kin is seeing it then it confirms what we were seeing as you guys most definitely have durchest on farm.

    thats why we just get lightning add out of the way first now... find out early on if we'll make it through or not... its too painful to wipe when durchest is at 6k
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  11. #111
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aestis25 View Post
    We've been experiencing the Do Not Fall To ___ bug. The first couple times we didn't realize it was a bug, but by the 3rd or 4th time it clearly was not good RKs suddenly failing post-patch after being fine for weeks straight pre-patch. What we've experienced is that the RK in the group with the tanks always seems to die to the storm attack. Sure, we can rez the RK and continue with Durchest HM fine after that, but he'll get a heal, making this an annoying bug. Do Not Fall appears to work fine for the rest of the group, but the RK in question always dies. Other than that, haven't noticed any changes to Durchest/Twins.
    Just speculating, but is it possible that the RK is using Fates Entwined at the same time? If so, the 10% absorb might remove his DNFTS buff, leaving him vulnerable to the full damage aimed at him directly.

    Just a thought.

    More generally, I would explore the possibility that the RK is taking Lightning damage from somewhere else and that DNFTS is working, but not on the attack you want it to.

  12. #112
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD View Post
    Just speculating, but is it possible that the RK is using Fates Entwined at the same time? If so, the 10% absorb might remove his DNFTS buff, leaving him vulnerable to the full damage aimed at him directly.

    Just a thought.

    More generally, I would explore the possibility that the RK is taking Lightning damage from somewhere else and that DNFTS is working, but not on the attack you want it to.

    I thought both of those things as well. It should be noted we never had a single death from that attack before the patch, and we have had 1 RK die every single time since. We've rotated 3 different RKs as well, and had the same thing happen to each in the tank group (meanwhile, any RKs in the other group are unaffected). It is not due to Fates Entwined--our RKs are usually DPS'ing and do not have this up. If it were the latter of the two suggestions you mentioned, this would reflect a change from the previous version of the fight, where there was only 1 big lightning attack easily absorbed. Off such a small sample size, the whole "tank group" thing is circumstantial and probably not indicative of the nature of what's happening. Can Do Not Fall be resisted now? If so, that might explain it, though the odds on that would be long, given we've never had anyone in the group die except the same RK (not the same person, but rather, the same role) every time.
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  13. #113
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aestis25 View Post
    I thought both of those things as well. It should be noted we never had a single death from that attack before the patch, and we have had 1 RK die every single time since. We've rotated 3 different RKs as well, and had the same thing happen to each in the tank group (meanwhile, any RKs in the other group are unaffected). It is not due to Fates Entwined--our RKs are usually DPS'ing and do not have this up. If it were the latter of the two suggestions you mentioned, this would reflect a change from the previous version of the fight, where there was only 1 big lightning attack easily absorbed. Off such a small sample size, the whole "tank group" thing is circumstantial and probably not indicative of the nature of what's happening. Can Do Not Fall be resisted now? If so, that might explain it, though the odds on that would be long, given we've never had anyone in the group die except the same RK (not the same person, but rather, the same role) every time.
    Are the RKs the only ones getting hit with the attack, or are they the only ones dying? If the latter, it's probably failing on everyone but the RKs are dying due to (likely) having the lowest morale. If it's the former, that's just weird and, um, good luck to your RKs.

  14. #114
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    Again, I don't think you see the point. 12 of the same people have been raiding together for 7 months. All of us have our full DN gear and now over half have 2 or more pieces. WE started BG as one group, that group had boss 1 and 2 down hard more and was working on LT easy mode. If we were able to do that with that class of players than, why do we have to replace them now. Some people like playing with kins, some like to pug and some, like us, like raiding with our friends. And again, we would not mind the changes if we knew there were changes coming in the first place.
    Raids change. It certainly wasnt ideal to bring the same class makeup from watcher 1.0 thru to watcher 3.0 especially as u learned the new encounters.
    What happens when the next raid comes out and the preferred class make up changes again?
    Do you complain or do you find something that works for your group. All im saying is people were really quick to start complaining. just look at when this thread was made and when the update came out. At least give the new version a chance. All im saying is put some time into the updated raid. Then sure if a month or so down the track most ppl still cant get it down then by all means call for it to be changed cus its to hard or watvea. and then im sure this whole process will start again with other groups being annoyed at the new changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    And again, we would not mind the changes if we knew there were changes coming in the first place.
    Yes it would of been nice to know the exact changes they planned on making, but since when do Turbine realease all the details about small changes they make to instances. they normally generalise with their comments unless adressing a specific bug. And so your saying if u knew there was changes coming it would have been ok, well im sure by now everyone knows the changes and so i dont see what the problem is now then, so it took u a couple of weeks figuring them out. who cares.
    Last edited by Tartare; Mar 16 2010 at 02:40 AM.
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    The changes are frustrating but I think for the better. From my point of view the raid is now alittle more balanced towards melee classes now for bosses 1 and 2. Groups use different strats of course but we do both bosses with 5-6 melee classes some times more. The extra heavy armour or burgs in your raid can really help a great deal now. Rks got a nerf in BG due to the amount of resists they now get, but thats ok as RKs were OP in there anyway. Frees up a slot of 2 for other classes. I think its better overall.
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  16. #116
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike8472 View Post
    The changes are frustrating but I think for the better. From my point of view the raid is now alittle more balanced towards melee classes now for bosses 1 and 2. Groups use different strats of course but we do both bosses with 5-6 melee classes some times more. The extra heavy armour or burgs in your raid can really help a great deal now. Rks got a nerf in BG due to the amount of resists they now get, but thats ok as RKs were OP in there anyway. Frees up a slot of 2 for other classes. I think its better overall.
    Are we playing the same game?

    Boss 1 has always been melee friendly. That hasn't changed. But how can you say boss 2 (HM) is more melee friendly? If anything it is less. There are considerably more puddles (which means more blue eyes). Melees when they get a blue eye = stops DPS. Ranged when they get a blue eye = continues DPS. Why stock up on melees who will constantly stop their DPS when ranged can keep going?

    Also subbing out RK's from a mere strategic standpoint is not desirable at all. Especially DPS RK's. Our -penetrate resistance legacy is nothing to scoff at. Even without it - or poorly ranked - you will not see many resists. Admittedly I usually heal on my RK, and while i have noticed resists, it is solely in the corruption removal realm. I haven't heard -any- of our DPS RK's complain of DPS-based resists to constitute any noteworthy "nerf".
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  17. #117
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Great discussion.

    I am approaching the point where I may quit (yeah right) or at least take a long break from the game. Difficult is not a bad thing. Even "bad luck causes a wipe" is something I can handle.

    But when you throw in repeat the Gauntlet and trash mob respawns... that is a lot of wasted time. Yes of course certain accomplishments in Lotro take time. Like learning instances and raids and big bad boss fights. But spending an extra 30-60 minutes of real life time to clear trash again is almost(?) a dealbreaker.

    Lately have been logging in... doing a few chores (check mail, auction house, craft something)... logging out. Tired of running the same things over and over. Yes could join a Barad Guldur raid but under the current circumstances... nah.

    I like this game. Genuinely appreciate the hard work the devs put in. But on this issue respectfully suggest something badly needs to be changed. More difficult (which is fine) combined with wasted time (which is not) = losing interest in this game.
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  18. #118
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartare View Post
    All im saying is put some time into the updated raid. Then sure if a month or so down the track most ppl still cant get it down then by all means call for it to be changed cus its to hard or watvea. and then im sure this whole process will start again with other groups being annoyed at the new changes.
    The problem is, changes were made - and now everyone has to spend a lot of time relearning strategies to beat encounters that were previously on farm, and for the same worthless loot. For many, including myself, this is a deal breaker.

    Make it harder... fine. Make it more random... fine - but at least give people a reason to go in there more than once.
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  19. #119
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    1,648

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    I dunno...we got our first Durchest and Twins HM kills since the "update" this weekend. Felt good to get the monkey off the back.

    With Durchest, we tried something, uh, new...hehe.
    We used to be kiters at the end....and we still are, kinda.

    We pull adds 6-9 with tank in place. Get Durchest's morale as low as possible (<5K). Once we pop the lever on the 10th add, the captain hits Make Haste and the tank takes off. We all start burning add. When MH is about to expire, tank hits (improved) Charge (or one of those nifty Loth run speed buff doodads) and keeps running. We kill lightning add, kill Durchest.

    When we did it Friday, Durch was down to 200 morale during the kite phase. Aye, 200. Needless to say, all we had to do was breathe on him and he went down before he could even start the lightning attack. I'd suggest a larger cushion than that, but all it takes is RAT discipline and you should be good.

    The problem may still be getting to that point, but a good suggestion was made earlier....and we've never tried it so I don't know if it's possible, but assuming you can pull that middle lever at any time, I'd say get it out of the way as soon as the first scripted add dies. We may have to try that next.

    Also, I'll need to post a screenie of the room after our Twins kill... OMG did they increase the eyes a little bit? Also seemed to even out the fires and shadows. Before it was more shadows for us all the time.

    Anyway, our kin was also in a funk the past few weeks. We held a meeting just confirming that it's the content and not us and the goal is to still have fun. We were taking it (and ourselves) way too seriously. ****** loot and luck mechanics aside, there's got to be a reason we keep coming back...a push of the reset button was in order. Of course, winning also cures most ills...but so does a deep breath and some QT with your kin mates.
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  20. #120
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Brampton, Ontario, CANADA
    Posts
    1,689

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Yes there are more puddles.

    It's crazy fun tho.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000001078d2/01001/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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  21. #121
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,648

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    Yes there are more puddles.

    It's crazy fun tho.
    You have to believe me when I say...that's nothing.

    When I get home I'll try to remember. It was to the point that no one could really move. Seriously.
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  22. #122

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    I dunno...we got our first Durchest and Twins HM kills since the "update" this weekend. Felt good to get the monkey off the back.

    With Durchest, we tried something, uh, new...hehe.
    We used to be kiters at the end....and we still are, kinda.

    We pull adds 6-9 with tank in place. Get Durchest's morale as low as possible (<5K). Once we pop the lever on the 10th add, the captain hits Make Haste and the tank takes off. We all start burning add. When MH is about to expire, tank hits (improved) Charge (or one of those nifty Loth run speed buff doodads) and keeps running. We kill lightning add, kill Durchest.

    When we did it Friday, Durch was down to 200 morale during the kite phase. Aye, 200. Needless to say, all we had to do was breathe on him and he went down before he could even start the lightning attack. I'd suggest a larger cushion than that, but all it takes is RAT discipline and you should be good.

    The problem may still be getting to that point, but a good suggestion was made earlier....and we've never tried it so I don't know if it's possible, but assuming you can pull that middle lever at any time, I'd say get it out of the way as soon as the first scripted add dies. We may have to try that next.

    Also, I'll need to post a screenie of the room after our Twins kill... OMG did they increase the eyes a little bit? Also seemed to even out the fires and shadows. Before it was more shadows for us all the time.

    Anyway, our kin was also in a funk the past few weeks. We held a meeting just confirming that it's the content and not us and the goal is to still have fun. We were taking it (and ourselves) way too seriously. ****** loot and luck mechanics aside, there's got to be a reason we keep coming back...a push of the reset button was in order. Of course, winning also cures most ills...but so does a deep breath and some QT with your kin mates.
    Thank you for the kind words and yes we too have had to hit the reset button and some peeps back on track. BG here we come..

  23. #123

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    If you have so many puddles that you no one can move at all then that is a good indication that your taking to long which implies your dps sucks
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000009281a/01008/signature.png]Handiir[/charsig]

  24. #124
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    5,862

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Handiir View Post
    If you have so many puddles that you no one can move at all then that is a good indication that your taking to long which implies your dps sucks
    Another shining example of Animus! Awesome. I feel bad for Ricky =/
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  25. #125
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,648

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Handiir View Post
    If you have so many puddles that you no one can move at all then that is a good indication that your taking to long which implies your dps sucks
    Heh, I know something else that sucks, but I won't get into it here...I'll just imply.


    Part of the issue was that we usually take folks with variable experience in there. Some are better-tuned to dropping them efficiently, others, not so much. In the end, it matters exactly none, right? Thought so.

    Anyway, I wasn't complaining or asking you to tell me something I already knew (BTW, hunter and RK on each boss - we don't stack for pretty screenshots or our "best" shot at winning, heh). In fact, it was one of the more exciting Twins HM kills we've had. Sucky DPS FTW, dooder.
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