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  1. #76

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Savery I think you are lucky to be leading such an exceptional crew -- while I do see your point, I think you are over looking the fact that most raid crews simply don't have the ability to adapt as quickly as yours does and that requires time spent. Yah yah we should all l2play but still -- not everything is as obvious to everyone else as it is to the more successful kins.

    Also a lot of kins are experiencing increasingly rapid turn over and burn out as a result of these changes -- so as the person you quoted stated, many of us are standing at a crossroads trying to decide to press onward with BG and it's low incentive system to complete it or do we give up on the end game all together and maybe play a different game.

    The time spent though is in how long it takes the individual crew to sort out how to adapt -- and at this point some folks are too frustrated already to wait for the spoilers from some of the more talented crews (like yours).

  2. #77
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    That is your post on another thread. So maybe I did put it wrong by saying Hard Core Kins, maybe it should have just been Kins. We have been 12 people raiding together for 7 months and we were all having fun together learning BG together and doing bosses 1 and 2 in hard mode. Prety much the same group we started DN with is the 12 we have now. WE dont have a pool of people we can go to when something is not working becuase that could mean lossing someone who has been with us from the start, is that fair??? If we were beating hard mode one way with the people we have now, why should we tell someone now that we unless you have an alt that can do what we need, you will have to be replaced. I myself have one toon, where does that leave me? As many people will tell you about me, I take my friends first over Kin, always have, always will and that is the one thing I am not going to change..
    What you're raising - having to sub people out because they have only one or an unwanted character - is something we've had to grapple with as well. I've had to tell Champs to ride the bench, to take my RK over my Burg (Burg being my main). But that's what you do. It ultimately comes down to this: do you want success or be with friends? Most people who raid (I think) want success. I don't like the specific class compositions more than anyone else, but I recognize it as a necessity to ensure continued success.

    Savery I think you are lucky to be leading such an exceptional crew -- while I do see your point, I think you are over looking the fact that most raid crews simply don't have the ability to adapt as quickly as yours does and that requires time spent. Yah yah we should all l2play but still -- not everything is as obvious to everyone else as it is to the more successful kins.

    Also a lot of kins are experiencing increasingly rapid turn over and burn out as a result of these changes -- so as the person you quoted stated, many of us are standing at a crossroads trying to decide to press onward with BG and it's low incentive system to complete it or do we give up on the end game all together and maybe play a different game.

    The time spent though is in how long it takes the individual crew to sort out how to adapt -- and at this point some folks are too frustrated already to wait for the spoilers from some of the more talented crews (like yours).
    I understand your point as well. Though I like to think of myself as a mediocore player at best, the kinships who have cleared BG are above (whatever it is) the rest. But the more I think about it the more I wonder what it boils down to.

    Is it really skill?

    I'm not so sure on that point. It can be gear, traits, legacies, radiance, coordination, whatever. All of the above can be fixed. Even skill can. There is enough skilled players in this game that can teach skill, to make weak players strong players.

    In short what I mean is this: we throw around excuses, but I think with enough focus - not necessarily time investment - any group can progress and feel good about themselves if they prepare and execute properly. The latter, of course, is open to anyone who puts the work in.
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  3. #78
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    I too feel like I'm at a crossroads with my kin. We worked very hard to get where we were. We had Durchest HM on farm, and the Twins were probably gonna go down in HM our next time in as we were getting very close on our most recent attempts (we even almost took them down in HM AFTER the patch because we already had the locks).

    We have now had 9 straight wipes on Durchest HM, 4 of which were last night. I can honestly say last night that everyone there played their ABSOLUTE BEST! I couldn't point a finger at anyone and say "well maybe if you did this a little faster or different we might have gotten it." No, everyone played great. 3 of the 4 wipes were with Durchest at or below 30k and with only 1 HM add left. How did they happen? The stupid fu#^ing "devastating melee attack" followed or preceded by a cleave. Yes we were grouped up around him to distribute the cleave. The kick in the balls to top off the night was the fact that before that last HM attempt we agreed that if we didn't get it we would just do easy mode to get the lock and at least something for our effort, only to have the gauntlet reset literally seconds before everyone could release. And this would not have happened if we hadn't gotten the unlucky link dead just before our last attempt. We had already cleared the gauntlet twice, and too many people just couldn't invest the time to do the gauntlet + Durchest EM as it was already past midnight.

    It's gotten to the point where we have several core raiding members playing full time creep side on another server because they're sick of all the BS w/ this raid! For the first time in 2 and a half years of playing this game I feel like quitting! What the hell is the point anymore? I have 3 characters maxed and w/ at least 120rad, and I'm close to maxing a 4th. And what is it all for? Nothing now apparently. God forbid people like raiding rather than doing Turbine's useless a s s skirmishes! There was literally talk last night in vent about how much all of us can't wait to go form a guild in SW:TOR when it comes out!

    I have loved this game so much for so long, and I've made some great friends through it. I would gladly remain here to the fires of Mt. Doom if Turbine would just stop screwing us over at EVERY TURN! It's almost like they are trying to drive all the raider's out of the game so they can just make their stupid solo-friendly fluff without any complaint from anybody. I can't believe I'm getting so worked up over this, but I guess after investing 3000+ hours of my life into this game I feel like I and people who enjoy the same type of content as me deserve at least a little attention! What's the point though? Turbine doesn't listen to us...............
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  4. #79

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Again I will say this: If we were doing hard mode before the last patch with the same make up we have now, and were beatting it hard mode, why should we be forced to change that make up now? Also, I would like to point out one other thing, 6 of the 12 of us are married and one of those happens to be MY WIFE. Yeah, that is going to go real well, "hey baby, they dont need you tonight but I am still going."
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  5. #80
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    Again I will say this: If we were doing hard mode before the last patch with the same make up we have now, and were beatting it hard mode, why should we be forced to change that make up now? Also, I would like to point out one other thing, 6 of the 12 of us are married and one of those happens to be MY WIFE. Yeah, that is going to go real well, "hey baby, they dont need you tonight but I am still going."
    Why? Because that's how raiding works - not just in this game but every game. Fights change for various reasons. It's abundantly clear that Turbine did NOT want you kiting Durchest. Now because 90% of groups have to do it hard mode becomes... well hard. They obviously didn't want Twins to be so easy (I considered it easy pre-patch) so puddles increased.

    Raiding - especially hard modes - are not suppose to be walks in the park. The first two locks (to Turbine) were apparently not hard enough. Their perogative. So if you want to continue pushing yourself, beating the hardest content they have to offer, you have to adapt and change. If you're unwilling to do that, then you won't beat content.

    Again, I sympathize with you, but anyone who has raided (outside of LOTRO) this is not surprising at all. Welcome to raiding!
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  6. #81
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    Again I will say this: If we were doing hard mode before the last patch with the same make up we have now, and were beatting it hard mode, why should we be forced to change that make up now? Also, I would like to point out one other thing, 6 of the 12 of us are married and one of those happens to be MY WIFE. Yeah, that is going to go real well, "hey baby, they dont need you tonight but I am still going."

    So glad my wife doesn't play MMO's...always leads to drama...

  7. #82
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    Again, I sympathize with you, but anyone who has raided (outside of LOTRO) this is not surprising at all. Welcome to raiding!
    It's also not surprising why raiding is done by such a small part of the community.
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  8. #83

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    The thing I just can;t understand is that were a ton of people complaining about how easy BG was? and if so where people quitting the game over it? Was it causing some type of imbalance in the game world (you know with all the awsome BG loot flooding the world /sarcasm)?

    If not why change anything? Especially when it causes frustration to the degree that people stop playing and spending money on the game. And it's not even like this is the first time they have gone down this same path.

  9. #84
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    tbh the real rub is that people were working on hardmodes and now realistically need to go back to farming normal modes to build experience and gear.
    No that is not fun because its a setback and it means lots of trash clearing for less loot.

    but then again durchest + twins normal mode in one night is heck of a lot better than wiping on durchest and people getting depressed.

    I do know of more 'casual/inexperienced/whatever' groups that are having success in BG because they are taking it slow nailing normal modes.
    Heck last week when we realized we just didn't have the class makeup for twins hardmode we did normal mode instead... even PM did.
    So called hardcore kins adapt if need be, so too can everyone else. No way would i spend a whole weekend wiping on durchest hardmode... rather just do normal mode and press on.

    If I was still leading a kinship and they were struggling with durchest and twins hardmode... i would focus on trying to get 2 normal mode clears per week instead. As a leader keeping up momentum is huge otherwise you're at the mercy of developers.

    You do have options and yes its lame... my numerous posts show I consider this serious issue but it is what it is... change from watcher1.0 to 2.0 i guess prepared some of us for this sort of thing.
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  10. #85

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenR View Post
    It's also not surprising why raiding is done by such a small part of the community.
    numbers? .
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  11. #86

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    It ultimately comes down to this: do you want success or be with friends? Most people who raid (I think) want success.

    Is it really skill? I'm not so sure on that point. It can be gear, traits, legacies, radiance, coordination, whatever.

    I think with enough focus - not necessarily time investment - any group can progress and feel good about themselves if they prepare and execute properly.
    There are many factors that make a player strong or weak.
    1> knowing the battle (knowledge of the maps, mob behaviors and skills, add locations and timing)
    2> knowing your characters skills and being able to choose and execute appropriate ones in a timely fashion
    3> having good infrastructure (radiance, appropriate high tier relics, appropriate virtues, food, appropriate high tier legacies on LIs).

    Then there are other (less tangible) factors that make particular raiding groups stronger.
    1> players all using the same strategy
    2> players built (virtues, traits, legaciess, food choice, etc) to match their role in the group
    3> players knowing the playstyles of the other players in the group

    My impression from the hardcore raiding kins is that they have restrictions that force members to have certain levels of infrastructure and then train them in the battles and strategies and thus have a more uniform playstyle that gives them greater success even when running alt groups. What I mean by consistent playstyle is they can count the champ in fight x is going to do action y when expected, regardless of which player is the champ this run. Its the uniformity, I believe, that allows them to have consistent successes.

    For casual groups/kins who have to take whomever is logged in, you have alot more variance in both infrastructure, build and playstyle which means you get much more variance in performance and luck plays a greater role in your success (or lack thereof). If instances are made hard enough to be difficult for groups that prepare hardcore, casual groups will be constantly frustrated with difficulty in that content.

    LotRO is at its core a very casual questing game with (up until now) fairly casual endgame content. Difficult enough to challenge a casual raiding group but easy enough that hardcore groups could do it fairly shorthanded.

    I dont know that there is really anything more to it than that. BG is LotROs first raid designed more for hardcore raiders.

    I am admittedly a casual raider. I work on my class traits and virtues but would rather play a few alts up to 90% capability than a single one up to 99%. I would rather have fun times running strange class combinations through SG or questing with lower level alts in some of the beautiful regions of middle earth that Turbine has created than grind LIs, relics and legacies up to top tiers. For now I will resign myself to enjoying our weekly runs through the gauntlet (by far my favorite current endgame fight) and consider any successes we have beyond that lucky breaks.
    Last edited by dhatcher1; Mar 12 2010 at 08:05 PM.

  12. #87
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhatcher1 View Post
    For now I will resign myself to enjoying our weekly runs through the gauntlet (by far my favorite current endgame fight) and consider any successes we have beyond that lucky breaks.
    they key for your group imo is focusing on durchest and twins normal mode. that is well within your capability and will help prepare you for hardmodes. It's not much different to going back to DN or VM to prepare. Remember many of the groups now farming BG hardmodes post bk1 had significant gear advantage.

    the unforgiving nature of hardmodes is such that the aim should never be to 'scrape' through but rather to ace them. If you can't nail them then they're not on farm and its back to the drawing board.

    a semi casual/hardcore group can have success as long as they readjust their goals.
    If goals are not readjusted that is leadership failure. Y'know back in the day with watcher2.0 we went so far as to bring in friends with more experience to help us identify what we were doing wrong. Success before ego.

    BG is LotROs first raid designed more for hardcore raiders.
    Yes i do think its a problem too much of this raid is brutal. LT normal mode should in my opinion be doable without need to be able to beat the other hardmodes.
    Or put another way if LT if off limits to so many people as it is now then at least 1 and 2 hardmode should be very doable.

    there are 6 encounters so to speak... i would agree that 4 of them are tough and i think thats too much relative to playerbase.
    Last edited by wyldcyde; Mar 12 2010 at 08:20 PM.
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  13. #88
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhatcher1 View Post
    ...
    My impression from the hardcore raiding kins is that they have restrictions that force members to have certain levels of infrastructure and then train them in the battles and strategies and thus have a more uniform playstyle that gives them greater success even when running alt groups. What I mean by consistent playstyle is they can count the champ in fight x is going to do action y when expected, regardless of which player is the champ this run. Its the uniformity, I believe, that allows them to have consistent successes.
    ...
    I'll share something from my experience with many that joined and stayed with us. It might be a boring read, so I warn you lol
    For the most part, the desire to make the characters better comes from the players themselves. They inspect current members, ask questions, share their point of view, and when they feel they can improve their characters, they go for it. And not because we told them to, or forced them to trait this or that, build this or that way. And it's not just the new members, but old ones as well. When you change something, try something new and people notice, they are curious, always adapting, sharing findings. Of course, there are some that need a push sometimes, but they're not the majority.
    In my mind that happens because when someone is looking for a raiding kinship, they are already trying to push themselves to be better (most of the time). And I'm not saying this isn't the same for others, but I've been in a casual kinship before, and there are some players that settle for so little. But they're happy with it and want to stay that way, I'd never question that, everyone has fun in their own way.

    In the end your point about the raiding kinships is, in my opinion, valid. With time we all know each others play style, we get used to they way we do things, and learn what to expect from them. And then take all of that and use it to figure it out how to beat the content.
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  14. #89

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Can someone mention how ****** radiance is? Remember when people could bring ANY FREAKING ALT?????



    I think that just about killed every kinship who had members with other things to do than grind for rad gear 5/6/7x over.

  15. #90
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsion_Reborn View Post
    Can someone mention how ****** radiance is? Remember when people could bring ANY FREAKING ALT?????



    I think that just about killed every kinship who had members with other things to do than grind for rad gear 5/6/7x over.

    Couldnt agree more. I leveled alts to keep myself busy in game,and to fill in the gaps in group content when the kin needed it. So now I'm almost finished my 7th 65,but most of them cant get into the raid because I would need to live in SH/SG for a weekend for each of them. I know this is a seperate issue, but if the radiance gate wasnt there,it would make things alot less stressful and time consuming because it would be alot easier to fill in spots.

  16. #91
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    the kinships who have cleared BG are above (whatever it is) the rest. But the more I think about it the more I wonder what it boils down to.

    Is it really skill?

    I'm not so sure on that point. It can be gear, traits, legacies, radiance, coordination, whatever. All of the above can be fixed. Even skill can. There is enough skilled players in this game that can teach skill, to make weak players strong players.

    In short what I mean is this: we throw around excuses, but I think with enough focus - not necessarily time investment - any group can progress and feel good about themselves if they prepare and execute properly. The latter, of course, is open to anyone who puts the work in.
    EXACTLY. we are a small kin and by no means elite. it took us a while to get our first BO kill in dn and we struggle to get 12 ppl together to raid one night a week. Yet we still manage boss 1 and 2 hms, before and after the patch. Yes we had to change some things but it didnt take long, yes sometimes we need to ask someone to sit out and we pug a better class, but we make sure next week that person is in the raid. we may not get the kill first attempt each week but we do get the kill. To everyone that is complaining that the instance is to hard now it really isnt apart from the LT fight. Also its only been 2 weeks since the update, really how much time have u put into trying the updated version of this instance. if you give up this quickly its not surprising that u were having trouble.

    This raid isnt hard, you dont need to be elite to kill boss 1 and 2 HM. you dont need to invest alot of time. You just need to stay focused during the boss fights and execute the strats that are going around.

  17. #92
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartare View Post
    This raid isnt hard
    If its not hard what is a better word you would use? Easy? It's not easy! It is difficult and hard. It challenges everyone in the raid to perform at their best ability. If it were easy people woudl be gloating about doing Durchest and twins with only 6 people already.

    Yes the changes are really annoying because it unbalanced groups that previously were doing well. It isnt easier now and you could argue it is now more difficult but its just different now.

    And the different bit causes the frustation, I'm sick of people saying it is easy, there are no foolproof strats out there on the forums on how to down any of the bosses, there is a lot of room for error and it only takes 1 death in the boss fights to cause a wipe depending on the situation. There is a lot of luck involved, obviously if you never miss a corruption removal and nothing ever gets resisted you are in for an easy kill but you get 3-4 resists in a row on corruptions and things are suddenly out of control of any raid.

    Durchest is buggy, the corruptions say nothing about giving him extra melee damage yet the corruptions definitely affect the "Devastating Melee attack" that is causing people grief, thats just dodgy mechanics.

    The pulls on the way to twins are more of a cross your fingers and hope for no wipe. The buggy warg, the random pulls that change every week you try them.

    The randomness on the fears why shoudl 1 person get 3 in a row? thats hardly random! thats just stupid.

    We finally got Durchest down HM tonight for the first time post patch without too much random BS. he didnt pull his "I think i'll bypass your do not fall to lightning buff" trick on us which was a bonus. a couple of people died maybe out of stupidity it didnt help our situation but we did it and it was not easy it was hard.
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  18. #93

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    The Dorchest fight prepatch was by no means easy..It was right on par with what a first boss fight should of been....

    Unfortunately Im going to have to agree with most the people in this thread...The ninja change to the fight was lamers and has cause alot of /rage quit....I myself have spent 3 years at this already and i used to have love for this game but this change reeks of watcher days that almost caused the demise of my Kin...Is the fight still doable, yes, but why do we need to keep fixing things that arent broken....Boggles my mind how it took over 3 months to fix the doors in the Moria instances yet Turbine sees fit to change raids that arent even broken asap......

    I dont wanna re-learn a new strat for the same boss over and over and over again..."It isnt fun turbine" and why they think it is IDK

    IMO the developers of this game lack imagination and direction and most likey dont even play thins game. Example: Why would a Dev create a new book that makes you run all over the world back and forth back and forth....and the dialog between the npc takes almost as long as the traveling...IMO a 12 yrs old could of put this book together Im sure they worked all of 3 hrs to do this.....Dev are killing their own game thru lack of imagination and ignorance...The communities have been screaming about sertain issues for months now and Turbine turns a blind eye..........Thier fix is to make the raid instance even harder then it was before in attempts to block or slow everyone down or loose players .I dont see this changing any time soon


    So the question for me is, if this is no longer fun, maybe its time to move on...........

  19. #94
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartare View Post
    This raid isnt hard, you dont need to be elite to kill boss 1 and 2 HM. you dont need to invest alot of time.
    well no its not rocket science but compared to other content in this game BG is definitely harder. i assume by your comment your group has beaten LT both normal and hardmode?

    now i've been in kin groups where we have undermanned BG bosses, beaten hardmode on first attempt etc, but doesn't mean its easy... one has to appreciate the journey the group takes to get to that point.

    it's a lot of time dedicated to strategy, planning, gearing up etc.

    i'll believe this raid isn't hard when we see way more people beating LT or many groups regularly beating 1 & 2 hardmode without wipes.

    no doubt when the next cluster is released BG will be made easier... imo it intentionally got buffed to extend its life.
    [center][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/wyldcyde"]WyldCyde[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Chn [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/rafael"]Rafael[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 LM [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/delenn"]Delenn[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Hnt [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/tendai"]Tendai[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 RK [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/weirdo"]Weirdo[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Brg [/color][COLOR="Gray"]secret[/COLOR] [COLOR="Cyan"]65 Hnt[/COLOR][/center]
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  20. #95
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia,PA
    Posts
    498

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsion_Reborn View Post
    Can someone mention how ****** radiance is? Remember when people could bring ANY FREAKING ALT?????



    I think that just about killed every kinship who had members with other things to do than grind for rad gear 5/6/7x over.
    I don't have too big of a problem with the radiance system but the one thing it hurts is how many raids we can put together per week. Pre-Moria my kin was running 3-4 different Rift raid groups per week so we were getting everybody in there consistantly and getting people's alt's in there. We were trying to get 3 DN groups running weekly pre-Mirkwood but it was infinitely harder than the Rift was with no radiance requirements
    Last edited by Streetpunk08; Mar 13 2010 at 05:19 PM.
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  21. #96
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    239

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laetitia View Post
    If its not hard what is a better word you would use? Easy? It's not easy! It is difficult and hard. It challenges everyone in the raid to perform at their best ability. If it were easy people would be gloating about doing Durchest and twins with only 6 people already.


    No requiring 6ppl to do 12man content is pathetically easy. ie watcher 3.0 Requiring 12 ppl to do a 12 man raid isnt hard. requiring them to pay attention to what is going on is not hard. It is what should be expected and is normal.

    Yes the LT is hard but boss 1 and 2 arnt and that seems to be what most people are complaining about.

    Fix the one issue on the LT with yellow eye and fear and i think u have a readily doable LT fight with practise on easymode and a challanging encounter on HM.
    Last edited by Tartare; Mar 14 2010 at 12:24 AM.

  22. #97

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartare View Post
    No requiring 6ppl to do 12man content is pathetically easy. ie watcher 3.0 Requiring 12 ppl to do a 12 man raid isnt hard. requiring them to pay attention to what is going on is not hard. It is what should be expected and is normal.

    Yes the LT is hard but boss 1 and 2 arnt and that seems to be what most people are complaining about.

    Fix the one issue on the LT with yellow eye and fear and i think u have a readily doable LT fight with practise on easymode and a challanging encounter on HM.
    *sigh* if you honestly feel bosses one and two are easy then we just have a different definition of the word *hard* i suppose.

    You even go on to say that watcher 3.0 was pathetically easy. Therefore the many players who've never beaten watcher 3.0 are pathetic players?
    -
    Here's a comparison tool for you -- watcher 2.0- hard, watcher 3.0 -medium, watcher 1.0 -easy.

    A word like hard is very difficult to define -- however, from what I can tell from you you view hard as equal to impossible.

    Sooooo I'd be curious in your definition. You stated requiring raid members to pay attention doesn't make a raid hard -- I'd counter that by stating this.

    Watcher 1.0 -- easy -- yet all 12 members had to pay attention
    Watcher 2.0 -- hard -- all 12 members had to pay attention
    Watcher 3.0 -- medium - all 12 members had to pay attention.

    Whether a fight is easy or hard -- all 12 members have to pay attention. Loremaster root on watcher 1.0 anyone? Requiring people to pay attention IS the norm. That by no means proves your point that BG is not hard.

    So maybe let me phrase my question directly -- how can a raid that hasn't been beaten by more than a handful of crews on each servor be considered *not hard*?

    IMO the raid is the same level of difficulty watcher 2.0 was which IMO is *hard*.

  23. #98
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    239

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    well the watcher 3.0 was 6manned by a few groups and we regularly 8 or 9maned it on level. it was LM tanked on lvl as well as burg tanked and hunter(mellee) tanked. All of these factors imo make it easy to the point of being boring when run with 12ppl that know whats going on. You could walk in and do it with just about any class make up and be successful. IMO with a bit of practise this raid was too easy in this version.

    Now look at BG. Boss 1 and 2 has been done undermanned. Your a little bit more restricted on class make up, but nowhere near what people think. There is nothing in either of the fights mechanics that is difficult to work around. Boss 1 is basically just swapping agro on tanks and making sure only one of them is geting hit at a time. Yes they get hit hard sometimes but nothing bringing an extra healer cant fix. People complain that durchest HM cant be done or they wipe cus do not fall to lightning didnt work. Yes it suxs if a skill doesnt work but its been posted enough so u should realise that and think of other ways around it. have a lm pop stun immunity on healers and tanks. look at when ur pulling that add. pull it earlier in the fight when durchest is doing less dmg etc.
    Boss 2 is even simpler. the only thing that can really cause trouble is if people dont pay attention to what eyes they get and where they put them. or on the fire guy if ppl dont watch there bleed and switch agro etc accordingly. this doesnt come down to being an elite player its just paying attention and knowing the fight. both get better with practise.

    Thats why i dont consider boss 1 and 2 hard to complete. The LT is a different story and i never said the LT is easy. it is a challanging fight to get the kill with the big luck factor involved with the yellow eye and fear. but as i said if that gets fixed i expect alot more groups will be geting em kills at least.

    The one thing that makes boss 1 and 2 harder is going in undergeared.

    Thats just my opinion and im not going to be changing my mind anytime soon. i just get frustrated when threads like this get posted a week after the changes were made and people saying there ready to quit cus they didnt get the kill this week. I could understand if after a month or so a majority of groups were still struggling then yes, by all means it probly does need to be looked at again but after the first week or two id be working towards geting the kill instead of complaining.
    Last edited by Tartare; Mar 14 2010 at 07:00 PM.

  24. #99
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3,924

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    I would say BG is not so much hard as unforgiving. Some of the trash pulls are actually harder than the bosses, in terms of difficulty of execution.

    But by unforgiving I mean that a single mistake by any one of 12 people can make the situation unrecoverable, to an extent you didn't have in the Rift or DN boss fights.

    This in turn means that 10 or 11 people who are doing their jobs properly may *not* be able to make up the slack for 1 or 2 people who aren't, which is certainly different than what people are used to.
    Last edited by LagunaD; Mar 14 2010 at 07:19 PM.

  25. #100
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Christchurch New Zealand
    Posts
    3,569

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    very very well said lagunad

    thats what it boils down to for me. strategies for most encounters in BG are fairly straight forward.

    There is no need for diagrams like we had with balrog, thorog, watcher etc.

    but one mistake or bad luck and it hits the fan big time in BG.

    and if you wipe you're staring down the barrel of painful trash respawn.

    deaths are harder to recover from in boss encounters as well... all 3 bosses penalize deaths which we have not seen before.
    [center][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/wyldcyde"]WyldCyde[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Chn [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/rafael"]Rafael[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 LM [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/delenn"]Delenn[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Hnt [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/tendai"]Tendai[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 RK [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/weirdo"]Weirdo[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Brg [/color][COLOR="Gray"]secret[/COLOR] [COLOR="Cyan"]65 Hnt[/COLOR][/center]
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