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  1. #51
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by musicman2000 View Post
    Yes I realize you're just echoing Turbine's stance that they don't want certain bosses to be kited -- I'm honestly not being intentionally obtuse there. What I am curious about though is why you stated previously think kiting is a bad strategy. As for Turbine they seem to want all their boss fights scripted to have one particular way of beating them -- no idea why there I personally think it's insanely silly but it is what it is -- the raiding community really should be accustomed to this by now =P.

    But I am curious about your opinion -- kiting having been a valid strat for a decade in MMO's-- why do you personally consider it to be such a bad strategy?? I'm usually of the point of view if it's not clearly an exploit and the mechanics allow for it then the strategy is fair game. It's no more *leet* so to speak to tank a boss in place then it is to run it around the room IMO.
    I didn't say it was a *bad strategy.* (A bad strategy would be one that doesn't work, or doesn't work consistently.) I just, personally, think that it's silly (in the context of a raid boss). I mean, you have one person running around in circles, trailing a boss, while 8 or 9 people whack away at its heels like some twisted conga line. Fraps it, speed it up, throw in some Benny Hill music and tell me it doesn't look comedic.

    Again, that's just my personal opinion.
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  2. #52

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by IGolbezI View Post
    the tact resist rate (pre patch) was bugged to be lower than normal. so they changed it to what it was "supposed" to be
    So they haven't even tested their so called "working as planned" config yet, gee what a surprise.

  3. #53
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by jayssen View Post
    If that statement doesn't sum up the situation at Turbine, I don't know what will....if they are unable to justify the cost of animating key moments from the books, then what hope is there for much else.
    That is pretty bad.
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  4. #54
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    We never kited Durchest so it's the same fight for us.

    But, I would really encourage Turbine devs to check out BG now that resists have been "fixed."

    One resist - one measly resist! - on a corruption removal can wipe 12 people.

    Can that really be WAI? *shrug*

  5. #55
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianrial View Post
    We never kited Durchest so it's the same fight for us.

    But, I would really encourage Turbine devs to check out BG now that resists have been "fixed."

    One resist - one measly resist! - on a corruption removal can wipe 12 people.

    Can that really be WAI? *shrug*
    Ehehehehe I laugh at the encourage devs to test BG...

    Uruviel and PM had to offer themselves, almost begged in BR to go there and report bugs and such... What we have know is a lot to do what PM did by offered themselves to test and we have to be thankful to them and others (Maelstrom). Otherwise I have a feeling BG would be closed by now ala Turtle when it came out...

    Devs testing BG? I doubt they had set foot in there after the changes...

  6. #56
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalthyn View Post
    So rather than deal with the change you choose to come here and moan?
    The problem with "dealing with the change" is that in my world getting 12 players to log into LotRO these days is getting nearly impossible.

    My friends list has ONE name on it with a login more recently than last Saturday.

    My kin list has 3 of us who have played in the past 6 months, not counting their alts.

    I WISH I could run this over and over to get new strats down. And yeah, to reiterate what others have said. I've never kited him, so I doubt it'll change much for us. If we ever run the instance again that is.
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  7. #57
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel View Post
    Devs testing BG? I doubt they had set foot in there after the changes...
    Mithlin and LiuTsieng did come in there a few times and asked us about bugs/what we thought about the encounter. Mithlin helped set up a few runs with gear etc, so kudos to him. He did his job well by helping to facilitate our testing. However, I don't think that our complaints about the instance were taken seriously enough. I said at the beginning that the LT was a ranged fest. Obviously, melee were nearly useless. I said that melee being unable to hit Cargaraf was stupid: that her Away with you should have changed at least to be distributed so if 12 people grouped up the attack would only do 400 or so to each of them. Melee can contribute in boss two but why bother if you can bring rks and make it go easier. I dunno, bugs were fixed for sure but the overall design of the instance seems rushed.
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  8. #58
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by jayssen View Post
    If that statement doesn't sum up the situation at Turbine, I don't know what will....if they are unable to justify the cost of animating key moments from the books, then what hope is there for much else.
    I agree, that's pretty bad.

    The next paid expansion will be make or break for Lotro imo. We can't really expect them to make monumental changes with free content updates but if they can't right a lot of the wrongs (LIs, radiance gear, sub-par rewards, etc.) with the next paid expansion I have a feeling that they won't have enough capital coming in to continue releasing content at all.

    Of course this is all speculation but I think that Turbine, instead of taking progress slow and steady with it's expansions, poured a lot of money into the development of content that hasn't paid off in the long run. In any business model that is a bad sign.

    I hope they do make the changes necessary to continue going... I would love to re-sub, but right now I can't really justify paying for a service I don't use.
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  9. #59
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by rawlingsst7 View Post
    I didn't say it was a *bad strategy.* (A bad strategy would be one that doesn't work, or doesn't work consistently.) I just, personally, think that it's silly (in the context of a raid boss). I mean, you have one person running around in circles, trailing a boss, while 8 or 9 people whack away at its heels like some twisted conga line. Fraps it, speed it up, throw in some Benny Hill music and tell me it doesn't look comedic.

    Again, that's just my personal opinion.
    This was my exact point also. The Benny Hill reference is classic and I am smiling just thinking about it.

    Also, I was saying that it is obvious that, for the most part, Turbine is of the same opinion, judging by the changes they have made over the past year plus. Me personally, I play a guardian as a 2nd main and it never occurs to me to kite things. When I read you could on Durchest it was the 1st time it ever crossed my mind.

    I am guessing the main reason that it is a staple in MMOs over the years is that there aren't a ton of design options to prevent it from happening besides making you fight in a very tight area or have them do big attacks when you attempt it. And people continue to do it because, when done properly, it's a powerful tool.
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  10. #60
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by jhwort View Post
    The next paid expansion will be make or break for Lotro imo. We can't really expect them to make monumental changes with free content updates...
    III.1 was not a "free content update". It was a content-free update...

    Unless the next updates include more than a couple hours of non-repeatable content at the level-cap, who will be around for the next paid expansion?

  11. #61
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel View Post
    Uruviel and PM had to offer themselves, almost begged in BR to go there and report bugs and such... What we have know is a lot to do what PM did by offered themselves to test and we have to be thankful to them and others (Maelstrom). Otherwise I have a feeling BG would be closed by now ala Turtle when it came out...
    IIRC, more corruptions were added at the suggestion of the some of these guys so I wouldn't be thanking them too much
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  12. #62

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by rawlingsst7 View Post
    I didn't say it was a *bad strategy.* (A bad strategy would be one that doesn't work, or doesn't work consistently.) I just, personally, think that it's silly (in the context of a raid boss). I mean, you have one person running around in circles, trailing a boss, while 8 or 9 people whack away at its heels like some twisted conga line. Fraps it, speed it up, throw in some Benny Hill music and tell me it doesn't look comedic.

    Again, that's just my personal opinion.
    Thanks for the reply and the chuckle hehe -- I'm now going to have Benny Hill music in my brain every time something is being kited ROFL.

  13. #63

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thane9 View Post
    The problem with "dealing with the change" is that in my world getting 12 players to log into LotRO these days is getting nearly impossible.

    My friends list has ONE name on it with a login more recently than last Saturday.

    My kin list has 3 of us who have played in the past 6 months, not counting their alts.

    I WISH I could run this over and over to get new strats down. And yeah, to reiterate what others have said. I've never kited him, so I doubt it'll change much for us. If we ever run the instance again that is.
    I understand that elite players want hard content. I however don’t think it is always what’s best for the game. I have no data to back this up except my own experience, but I think that more end game players leave this game for that reason than any other. I know that Watcher 2.0 killed my last kin and dwindled down my friends list. Players do not have unlimited tolerance for failure and frustration. My active and successful kin, fractured and fell about because they could not beat the Watcher (after having him on farm for weeks), and did not even see it as a possibility in the near future, so they stopped logging on and moved on to games that offered more fun and satisfaction for their time investment.

    I don’t know how many kins were able to beat the Watcher during that period, but I know it was not many. I guess Turbine could not see the potential downside of creating content that all players were funneled to by the instance clusters, that was not beatable by 95% of the community. The sad part is that even if the Watcher was too easy, my guild would have happily farmed the Watcher for mains and alts, and been ready to go when DN came out. Instead, at least 15 players in my kin quit the game entirely until we could barely get 6 people online at one time, and I never even got a chance to run DN.

    It is baffling to me that they just ignored the past and looks like they want to repeat it. This time not just is the Lt off limits to the vast majority of players, but the loot in BG absolutely blows. The boots for my guardian are actually WORSE than the +25 radiance boots I got from 5 SH runs. I was really optimistic about the future of raiding going into Mirkwood. I had all kinds of ideas for how they would be able to keep the lvl 60 raids relevant, and instead they made no attempt at all. I am an advocate of not letting raid gear far outpace the quality of non-raid loot by too far, and still I am appalled at the crappiness of the BG loot. They had it right with the Rift IMO. Good gear, but not leaps ahead, and a couple really good prizes to be had off the Rog. It looks like they didn;t even try to offer anything good in BG.

    For the first time since I been playing (since closed beta), I am not really optimistic about the direction of the game. I am starting to lose the feeling that the game will get better since time after time they keep making the same mistakes.

    Turbine should think about this. Did making the Watcher harder add more players to the game or keep more players happy or did it cost more players in the end? Will making Durchest unkitable (after it has already been released) improve overall sentiment about the encounter or somehow improve the game, or just annoy people? Will having raid gear that is WORSE than instance gear 5 levels lower, keep players happily farming the raid, or just make them feel meh about it?

    Maybe the answers to those questions are not what I would expect, but I find it really hard to think that the decisions they are making are actually resulting in acquiring new players and keeping old players happy.
    Last edited by Ragnborg; Mar 11 2010 at 03:58 PM.

  14. #64
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnborg View Post
    I have no data to back this up except my own experience, but I think that more end game players leave this game for that reason than any other.
    Funny we were doing our 20th (it seems) failed attempt at the LT last night and I literally thought, "this ****ing raid is going to make me stop playing this game."

    Watcher 2.0 was vastly different from BG. We had 1.0 on farm, like everyone else, and went in to 2.0 and wiped like everyone else. We killed him 3-4 time before watcher 3.0 released. Each attempt we made a bit more progress, we could see the light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah it took 5 weeks but we did it. Sure, it helped that there was no hour clear to get there. We also had great motivation beyond our own satisfaction of getting 2.0 down. Watcher had GREAT loot. The best at the time. Finish off your Moria set and get a chance at the best weapons (first ages) in the game and great jewelry. BG has none of this, and after 8 weeks of LT attempts we see zero progress, and have almost zero motivation. BG is like a raid version of LI's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnborg View Post
    For the first time since I been playing (since closed beta), I am not really optimistic about the direction of the game. I am starting to lose the feeling that the game will get better since time after time they keep making the same mistakes.
    Same here. Why no melee in BG? Didn't they learn from watcher 1.0 at all? And I'm saying that as a hunter who tanked the watcher.

    Everything they seem to be doing now is, to me, going down the wrong path. Everything.
    Last edited by lwk1138; Mar 11 2010 at 08:00 PM.
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  15. #65
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by lwk1138 View Post
    BG is like a raid version of LI's.


    So, so true.

    The only part of the raid I enjoy is the Gauntlet, which is great fun but too short. The rest, I really wouldn't mind never doing again - even without downing the Lt yet. It's just not worth the frustration of 1 thing - a small thing even - wiping everyone when there's nothing you could have done about it.

  16. #66
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    Mithlin and LiuTsieng did come in there a few times and asked us about bugs/what we thought about the encounter. Mithlin helped set up a few runs with gear etc, so kudos to him. He did his job well by helping to facilitate our testing. However, I don't think that our complaints about the instance were taken seriously enough. I said at the beginning that the LT was a ranged fest. Obviously, melee were nearly useless. I said that melee being unable to hit Cargaraf was stupid: that her Away with you should have changed at least to be distributed so if 12 people grouped up the attack would only do 400 or so to each of them. Melee can contribute in boss two but why bother if you can bring rks and make it go easier. I dunno, bugs were fixed for sure but the overall design of the instance seems rushed.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're talking about BG when it first came out.

    I was refering to BG post b1 meaning did the devs bothered to test the LT with yellow eye + fear stack? Did they feel the frustration of wipe and wipe and wipe again if they happen to have bad luck and perfect execution?

    Did they bother to test things since judging by their recent history (therefore I mentioned you and PM as an example), ppl need to offer themselves to test content and try to make it as bug free as possible?

    I have to stop tbh... Complaining is contagious and I don't want to seem like a little brat here... I'm 31 and don't have much time/patience for these kind of things... Enjoy the game all...
    Last edited by RicardoFurriel; Mar 12 2010 at 11:28 AM.

  17. #67

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by lwk1138 View Post
    Funny we were doing our 20th (it seems) failed attempt at the LT last night and I literally thought, "this ****ing raid is going to make me stop playing this game."

    Watcher 2.0 was vastly different from BG. We had 1.0 on farm, like everyone else, and went in to 2.0 and wiped like everyone else. We killed him 3-4 time before watcher 3.0 released. Each attempt we made a bit more progress, we could see the light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah it took 5 weeks but we did it. Sure, it helped that there was no hour clear to get there. We also had great motivation beyond our own satisfaction of getting 2.0 down. Watcher had GREAT loot. The best at the time. Finish off your Moria set and get a chance at the best weapons (first ages) in the game and great jewelry. BG has none of this, and after 8 weeks of LT attempts we see zero progress, and have almost zero motivation. BG is like a raid version of LI's.

    I will definately concede that point. At least the Watcher had stuff that people really wanted. I still would love to get a Black Pearl for my guard. What does BG have, armour that's overall crappier than what I was wearing at 60? Or I can get a new shiny 2nd age so I can feel better about losing the 1st age I was using at 60. /mindboggle

    While I do agree they are different I think my point about players not having unlimited tolerance for failure and frustration holds true. Many people can't handle 5 weeks of attempts with nothing to show for it but huge repair bills. I am more patient than some, but can honestly say that it is not fun, and I can understand that at some point people decide that it is not worth spending time in a GAME that is offing no pleasure to them. I don;t want everything to just be easy, but is it too much to ask that content not be tuned to be only acheivable by the top 5% of players or even less.

    I will say that the game is still fun to me, but these things certainly do not help, and I understand why people are leaving. I hope Turbine gets this stuff straightened out or at least attempt to help us understand what there reasoning is, because it this point it seems that it is simply poor judgment.

  18. #68

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're talking about BG when it first came out.

    I was refering to BG post b1 meaning did the devs bothered to test the LT with yellow eye + fear stack? Did they feel the frustration of wipe and wipe and wipe again if they happen to have bad luck and perfect execution?

    Did they bother to test things since judging by their recent history (therefore I mentioned you and PM as an example), ppl need to offer themselves to test content and try to make it as bug free as possible?

    I have to stop tbh... Complaining is contagious and I don't want to seem like a little brat here... I'm 31 and don't have much time/patience for these kind of things... Enjoy the game all...

    You would think things like raid content and pvp balance would be among the first thing devs would want to jump on en masse to experience for themselves. It seems alien to me that testing those items would be looked at with such indifference, however judging by things like Dev interviews, at Turbine they spend more time worrying about pie baking quests, hobbit dresses and deed titles.

    Well Ric complaining might be contagious or it might just be people agree with you only didn't want to be the first to say anything. There will always be the fanboi base that will jump to challenge anything they perceive as unfair criticism of their heroes, LoTRO is no exception. They are also the self anointed arbiters of whats legitimate who believe they know better and should direct others behaviour, ie the "do as I say, not as I do" crowd.

    Fact is Turbine has created some serious concerns in their most avid player base and if people don't want to hear it, they should just step away. It seems things are going to get worse before they get better.
    Last edited by Delirium; Mar 12 2010 at 12:08 PM.

  19. #69
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're talking about BG when it first came out.
    Yes, and no, I didn't do any testing recently. I don't think they like me much .
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  20. #70
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwswim03 View Post
    I don't think they like me much .
    They should listen to you. Not only you and others are willing to help them and have the time to do so, your crticism should be seen as constructive and not destructive even though you come out as a big a s s troll sometimes. Some ppl are just too sensitive to take criticism and prefer to suck than do something someone else told them to do...

    It's called pride...And like Al Pacino said in the Devil's Advocate or Marsellus Wallace in Pulp Fiction... Screw pride...

  21. #71

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    So here is the update Turbine: My group of 7 months of 12 people getting together to raid every week has now lost 5 of them since this UPDATE came out. The rest of us aare getting togehter Sunday to see where we will go from here. We are all a group of Raiders who all have kids, all have jobs and we can not be raiding everyday of the week for hours to learn something like maybe some Hard Core Kins can, BG has now become not fun anymore. So now all my hard work of 7 months keeping 12 people together to learn and beat BG has all been for NOTHING. Where once we were beating bosses 1 and 2 and working on the LT to where we now have people who don't even want to try. Thank You. Thank you. Now I am at a cross road, do I try and join a Hard Core Kin so I might be able to see end game, do I just step back and keep doing other boring things in game but have fun with my in game FRIENDS or do I just leave the game altogether.
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  22. #72

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    fixation on stopping emergent behavior can mean raid is unexploitable but has significant polish issues.
    I still wonder why the Developers allowed Thrang to be LOS'd, and so many other bosses to be kited et cetera ... but took a stand in BG.


    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD View Post
    III.1 was not a "free content update". It was a content-free update...

    Unless the next updates include more than a couple hours of non-repeatable content at the level-cap, who will be around for the next paid expansion?
    SoM was Forochel 2.0, with a single raid and a single 6-man that nobody in my kin even enjoys anymore. Mirkwood hurts really badly if you're in a group that finished gearing eveybody up with VM and DN a long time ago ...

  23. #73
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    So here is the update Turbine: My group of 7 months of 12 people getting together to raid every week has now lost 5 of them since this UPDATE came out. The rest of us aare getting togehter Sunday to see where we will go from here. We are all a group of Raiders who all have kids, all have jobs and we can not be raiding everyday of the week for hours to learn something like maybe some Hard Core Kins can, BG has now become not fun anymore. So now all my hard work of 7 months keeping 12 people together to learn and beat BG has all been for NOTHING. Where once we were beating bosses 1 and 2 and working on the LT to where we now have people who don't even want to try. Thank You. Thank you. Now I am at a cross road, do I try and join a Hard Core Kin so I might be able to see end game, do I just step back and keep doing other boring things in game but have fun with my in game FRIENDS or do I just leave the game altogether.
    While I have sympathized with you, I can't let the bold go.

    What do you really think hardcore kins are? My kinship, Animus, is perceived to be a hardcore raiding kin. Despite the fact that I dispel it, here are some things for you. First, we raid (at most) 3 nights a week. Two clears of 1&2 and one clear of the Lt. Each of these raids last from 2 to 3 hours. If, for whatever reason, one night doesn't go well, I don't book another night to get it right. Second, I do that because all of my raiders have RL committments. I could not, even if I wanted to, book raids 5 nights a week. Too many of my guys and gals have jobs, families, school, or what have you.

    Long story short? You do not need to spend hours learning raid content. We went into BG last week - first time since the patch. Durchest changed and we spent our 2-3 hours on Thursday figuring him out (we never kited before). Got the HM kill. On Friday we spent the two to three hours figuring out Twins. Didn't get the HM kill but we got a better feel for it.

    This week? Heh, group went in last night and flawlessly did locks 1&2 in HM. What did we do? Re-think strategies, execution, class composition, and then applied it. It worked. No hours of time investment.

    LOTRO never has, and never will, require hours of investment. Most raiders, I'd say, have tremendous RL commitments. Don't blame that for your troubles.

    Heck, the only time you see anyone going "hardcore" is for server firsts, and that is more lax than you'd expect.
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  24. #74
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    1,055

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magian View Post
    LOTRO never has, and never will, require hours of investment. Most raiders, I'd say, have tremendous RL commitments. Don't blame that for your troubles.
    YMMV. Obviously, some groups are going to do things better/faster/more efficiently than others. I don't think the issue is whether or not Quantar's raid group objectively, hands-down REQUIRES hours and hours of practice and commitment, but their PERCEPTION of necessity. Because it's that perception that's driving his comrades to quit his group or LOTRO as a whole - almost half his raid crew is gone.

    More and more I'm reminded of Watcher 2.0, which was attempted for MONTHS by groups that never managed to get it down. Plenty of people perceived the Watcher as "impossible without being in a hardcore kin" back then too. It wasn't true, but those perceptions still fueled plenty of discontent. Kins broke up because of it. Kins are breaking up now because of the same perceptions.
    Nemesis - Brandywine
    Jenith 100 Hunter || Gavigan 78 Guardian || Kazamir 76 Captain
    Gjorn 65 Champion || Anavel 65 Burglar || Thissis 100 Warden || Mezimus 70 Loremaster

  25. #75

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    "If you had a Burglar those numbers would be: 4800 and 1600 - 2400. Even if they occur back to back that is, at most, 4800+2400 = 7200. Then if you add in an RK healer that is further reduced to about 6480. That is survivable.

    As much as I hate to say it - and I've found it out the hard way - class composition is key to success in BG."

    That is your post on another thread. So maybe I did put it wrong by saying Hard Core Kins, maybe it should have just been Kins. We have been 12 people raiding together for 7 months and we were all having fun together learning BG together and doing bosses 1 and 2 in hard mode. Prety much the same group we started DN with is the 12 we have now. WE dont have a pool of people we can go to when something is not working becuase that could mean lossing someone who has been with us from the start, is that fair??? If we were beating hard mode one way with the people we have now, why should we tell someone now that we unless you have an alt that can do what we need, you will have to be replaced. I myself have one toon, where does that leave me? As many people will tell you about me, I take my friends first over Kin, always have, always will and that is the one thing I am not going to change..
    Ramble On's Channel: [url]http://www.youtube.com/user/QuantarLOTRO?feature=mhee[/url]

 

 
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