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  1. #1

    Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    I really need one of the Dev’s to answer this for me. About 7 months ago I put a group of 12 people together that wanted to raid. We all met through PUGGING DN. Together we learned how to clear DN and it was our goal to make sure everyone in our group had all their DN gear before we went into BG. Just over 4 weeks after SoM came out we all had our DN gear and on Jan. 6th we beat Durchest easy mode and than 3 weeks after that we got him down Hard Mode. With all the research we did and a few wipes we came up with a Strat that worked for our group. WE are not even a KIN, let alone a raiding kin, do you know how much AIR was sucked out of us when we learned that all of our WIPES, our hard work learning something that you put out on Dec. 1st was changed without warning??? Is this really TRUE? Is this what I am paying for? I can understand if this fight was made easy because it was too hard? But for the Casual Raider like us this is crazy. At least tell us in the release notes this is going to happen, so we can start learning the fight the way you meant it to be, don’t give us something to learn if its wrong in the 1st place. That is not fair to me or any other casual raider. And please note, I am not here saying please make this easy, I am just asking for a honest answer, do we really need to learn a new Strat to beat Durchest Hard Mode or will he one day start to Slow again. And if anyone else here is upset by this change without notice, please sign here……

  2. #2

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    The resist rate increase will adversely effect taunts -- however there is a thread in the sticky section addressing this hopefully we'll get some answers about BG specifically in there.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    yes there were ninja changes or at least ripple effect from changes made elsewhere.

    this is not a casual raider problem. I personally know of at least 4 kinship groups that had durchest hardmode on farm that ran into significant difficulty and unexplainable behavior in the encounter. And its not just resists.

    I do wonder who the target audience is for this raid. Perhaps devs felt too many groups were making progress with hardmodes which should be off limits to them.

    It reaches a point where some encounters are just too difficult... case in point watcher2.0 but that was different because it was the only show in town. I don't see why the initial bosses in BG should be so brutal and unpredictable.

    Thats probably it... the new regime is that unpredictable and random = challenge... so expect more bosses where even if you have on farm banking on first attempt kill is unwise... add in respawns and the pressure dial is really turned up. Personally i think its out of touch with bulk of raiding playerbase.
    Last edited by wyldcyde; Mar 09 2010 at 07:59 PM.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    I canceled my sub over this issue. Not this one alone, but it was the last straw in a long list of things.

    We had Durchest on farm. Went in after patch and wiped 3 times and we couldn't even finish EM. That was it for me... I don't need to relearn content that has been made more difficult for the same POS rewards.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    You know what I've heard here?

    Blah blah Theres a problem blah blah I wont tell anyone what is is blah blah blah.


    How bout we try explaining what we're complaining about, hmm?
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  6. #6
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    What exactly was changed?
    "And Men spoke thereafter not of Elenna, nor of Andor the Gift that was taken away, nor of Númenórë on the confines of the world; but the exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue."

  7. #7

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    So rather than deal with the change you choose to come here and moan? Seriously? Don't you think it would be more productive to discuss strats rather than just whining? People are still beating Durchest just fine, post-patch. Maybe if you can't figure it out, try asking around in the Instances & Raids forum?
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  8. #8

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Are they? Are they really beating him? All I've heard about is people on Elendilmir getting frustrated and rage quitting in some instances. If it's just about learning a new strat, then fine. But the consensus to me was that people were 1) getting curbstomped, 2) barely making it for buggy or rubbish loot. I gave up either way.
    never mind I quit, sub ending in May. Good luck everyone.
    [s][b]How come there have been no responses to this official community thread from [u]May 29, 2009[/u].[/b] [url=http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=270349]" Tell The Community Team - 5/29/09 "[/url] [b]"Question 3: What three changes would you make to the [u]LFF panel[/u]?"[/b] We need better LFG TOOLS![/s]

  9. #9
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agarwaen26 View Post
    What exactly was changed?
    this is what we're scratching our heads to figure out exactly.

    we know the bosses no longer slows at low health.

    we know resists are up by an unknown %

    Then there are other things happening with mileage variation from group to group.
    Do not fall to lightning not working reliably?
    Extra attack from durchest or increased dmg output?
    Threat debuff changed somehow?
    Distributed damage change?

    Our group got hardmode after some wipes. Theoretically we could have gotten lucky and beaten it first try... and then likely we would not have complained about changes to the encounter. Sample size.
    In a way those groups that wiped more had greater sample size with which to determine if something was in fact different.

    "last straw" indeed. turbine needs to acknowledge this raid had issues from day1... so far the subsequent changes have not for the most part addressed them.
    If the target audience for predictable enjoyment of BG is top % of hardcore raiders then sigh but so be it... maybe everyone else should focus more on skirmish raids.

    If i wanted unpredictable outcomes after putting in the time to gear up and learn strats... i would just stick to pvp raids. occasional wipes for the top raiding kins can translate to impasse for other groups.
    Last edited by wyldcyde; Mar 09 2010 at 09:02 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    We wiped the first time we tried to kite him in HM post-patch. Got him down the next attempt. Didn't seem to make that much difference in the fight.

    Thanks for posting some specifics Wyld, will keep an eye out this week.
    Last edited by umrebel; Mar 09 2010 at 08:54 PM.
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  11. #11

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    I really need one of the Dev’s to answer this for me. About 7 months ago I put a group of 12 people together that wanted to raid. We all met through PUGGING DN. Together we learned how to clear DN and it was our goal to make sure everyone in our group had all their DN gear before we went into BG. Just over 4 weeks after SoM came out we all had our DN gear and on Jan. 6th we beat Durchest easy mode and than 3 weeks after that we got him down Hard Mode. With all the research we did and a few wipes we came up with a Strat that worked for our group. WE are not even a KIN, let alone a raiding kin, do you know how much AIR was sucked out of us when we learned that all of our WIPES, our hard work learning something that you put out on Dec. 1st was changed without warning??? Is this really TRUE? Is this what I am paying for? I can understand if this fight was made easy because it was too hard? But for the Casual Raider like us this is crazy. At least tell us in the release notes this is going to happen, so we can start learning the fight the way you meant it to be, don’t give us something to learn if its wrong in the 1st place. That is not fair to me or any other casual raider. And please note, I am not here saying please make this easy, I am just asking for a honest answer, do we really need to learn a new Strat to beat Durchest Hard Mode or will he one day start to Slow again. And if anyone else here is upset by this change without notice, please sign here……
    If you had NO fun in playing and beating it with friends than Yes, you did all that hard work for nothing.

    If you enjoyed yourself and had a helluva time then you did it for something

  12. #12
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by rolston View Post
    Are they? Are they really beating him? All I've heard about is people on Elendilmir getting frustrated and rage quitting in some instances. If it's just about learning a new strat, then fine. But the consensus to me was that people were 1) getting curbstomped, 2) barely making it for buggy or rubbish loot. I gave up either way.
    Not everyone is rage-quitting or getting their *** handed to them.

    Our post-patch experiences:

    Last Tuesday we had the LT down to 100k in a HM attempt, and would've probably finished it off had my purple-eye having self not gotten in the way of an RK who had the yellow eye and killed him.

    After locks reset:

    Durchest HM - Completed on first attempt using same strategy that we always have (aggro-swap). We did lose one tank (a Warden) due to back-to-back 4k+ crits, but we finished that same run with a shieldless Champ taking over the Warden's spot tanking Durchest. (We did rez the Warden, but he just switched to add duty rather than try to climb back up the aggro list). We were still able to kite Durchest, although he did seem faster than before. Champ sprint = win when kiting, even with only a 15s duration. I'm not sure how the Guardian managed to kite him, but he did.

    Twins HM - Unable to complete it, but not due to changes. In our case, it was having our only two Hunter mains unavailable and thus having to use a lesser-geared, lower morale Hunter kiting the shadow dude, which didn't work out so well. We also had pugged one spot and brought along someone who had never seen the HM mechanic, and the person struggled accordingly (did fine throughout the raid, but had the same trouble with the eyes that we all did our first time in there). We ended up doing EM instead, which was quite simple.

    Yes, resists were up a little bit, but nothing unmanageable.

    I know that the changes are frustrating, but they haven't made the fights unbeatable.

  13. #13
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    We wiped on our first attempt at Durchest HM after the update, so we adjusted our strat a little, and we are doing ok again. There is however an element of luck involved that is a result of the randomness Turbine seem so keen on putting into encounters now. If you get two crits in a row on your tank, its goodnight.

    I don't really get why the devs feel the need to constantly fiddle with raid bosses that are not broken, Durchest HM was not the toughest fight, but given it was the first boss in the raid, it did not need to be made harder. There are heaps of other bugs they could spend their time on fixing.

  14. #14
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    We ended up doing EM instead, which was quite simple.
    hey if one of only a handful of kins to beat LT HM can be reduced to that i don't feel so bad we ended up doing twins EM as well due to class setup.

    agree with jayssen

    luck/random factor impacting too much on chance of success is not good for fun factor... especially when failure can mean being forced to clear trash again !

    I know of one group that worked on durchest HM for 3 sessions over the past few days when they were beating regularly beforehand. Not sure what was going wrong but I feel for them... that's epic perseverance.

    honestly I think many raiders were ok with LT being beyond their reach this side of nerfs to the encounter... its ok for the hardcore to have LT to themselves generally speaking... but the whole raid being their domain is unfair. Though I think a bit part of LT challenge is what it takes to get to the point you can put in some solid attempts.

    its going to be a brave dev to wade into this forum atm. me thinks they are trying to figure out what went exactly has changed.
    Last edited by wyldcyde; Mar 09 2010 at 09:25 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    I think the complaints always take one of two forms -

    a) why change something after people have spent a lot of time learning it?

    b) why not announce the change in the notes?

    Having beaten Watcher 1.0 in a legitimate (not overpower ranged) group one week before the change was annoying. Making the change something minor was tolerable though our group ended up disbanding in frustration after another 2-3 weeks of attempts.

    In the case of BG I do think you have a majority of people that have been working on the instance including at least two regular pug groups on my server. These groups are dedicated to doing end game for a variety of reasons and work through difficulties to finally have a strategy and then get disheartened when fundamental changes like this are made.

    The problem is not that the solution to this mentality that the devs seem to have is not a clear one. While I don't want a boring instance and boss fight I would say that perhaps a more noteable difference should exist between easy mode and hard mode. Leaving the boss kiteable during all adds and decreasing melee devs makes the fight challenging and the only thing left out is the need for 'luck' (for lack of a better word) in avoiding devastate attacks. That way groups have the chance to upgrade with non-HM gear and move farther through the instance and can then have a better chance at beating hard mode.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    This is one of the reasons why I don't even bother Raiding.

    Turbine, in their wisdom, sees now how hard it's going to be for them to actually get to Minas Tirith, much less Mordor, and they are now scrambling in every way they know how to 'stretch' the value (longevity) of their present content.

    They know that this game is going to quickly be passed up by newer, faster game engines and graphics, because they chose what was cheap when they started.

    They are desperate to wring every dime they can out of it.

    They hired a HUGE staff to do Moria, and were so unsure of it that even after release they were still sending out polls on content to beta testers.

    They can't afford that kind of staffing again, because of the cost, and the economy.

    What do they do?

    The 'Release in Asia' was successful, but all of Asia does not even equal the revenue of California alone, (if that) because of exchange rates.

    The 'Global Market' for them means making things in Asia at Asian wages FOR Asia, you can't expect to wallow in cash here from profits there.

    And you can't expect to survive here by moving there, people will reject you for firing the U.S. staff.

    Plus, the boss can't speak a second language, much less see a way out of this box.

    The artwork created for the Asian Servers is far too Kabuki/Anime for U.S. markets anyway.

    So, their solution is to make everything, literally everything, a grind.

    For LI's this means Dropping the Exp Rune value from the once juicy 175,000 to a 650 point spit in the face.

    It means that now only 1 on 100 LI's for your class comes up with 3 legs (of moderate value), and maybe 1 in 10,000 will have four to start with.

    For raids, it means making bosses much harder, Farming NOT ALLOWED.

    For general play it means that almost all mobs are harder, have more resists, do more damage, and cost more in repairs.

    This however does not mean a lower spawn rate though, so, where you once roamed freely, you now MUST group to survive.

    The failure of this 'plan' is that it looks at the content as a BUSINESS, not a game, not as FUN, only as a way to milk cash and make subscriptions last longer.

    But how long will the subscriptions last if the game is no longer any fun to play, for anyone?

    They've pissed of the Tolkien Fan, with RK's tossing around spells in a world where they do not belong.

    They've pissed of the hard core and casual raiders, by making both the loot and the hard fought strategies worthless.

    They've pissed off the general population of players at endgame by totally destroying LI's, and making weapons vendor trash, in a world that is SUPPOSED TO revere it's lineage, it's history, and honor the hallowed hands that wielded it before you.

    They've turned the opening content into a rocket ride to this endgame, creating a class of players who really do not understand the skills they are playing.

    On the tactical and technical proficiency of newer players, have you not run into a level 50 or higher that hasn't even purchased and equipped all of his available skills, much less know how to use them?

    I have seen more than a few.

    So, what's left?

    What do we do?

    What does Turbine do?

    Personally, I'd be happy with no new content for several years, IF, and not just capital, but a big IF, they devote what resources they have to polishing everything, from Michel Delving to Mirkwood.

    There is already so much between those two it's still full of things so many haven't done.

    Make Housing something the people like and want.

    If LI's are going to be trash, (really bad idea) make it a quick turn around again, so they can at least not be stuck so long with something that COSTS THEM MONEY in repairs, to have to use.

    Get rid of all the glitches and imbalances.

    Clean up the clutter and work on the 'evergrowing' lists of 'Honey Do's' that all the previous content left us with, rather than adding more and pushing down into the mire stuff that SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIXED.

    So sorry, but pixels will never turn into crude oil.

    Stop the race to more, newer, bigger, and start looking at what Tolkien is, and what it is not, because no matter what they do, there will come a day when all they have left are Tolkien Fans, here because it's Middle-earth.

    It's a GAME, and they better figure out a way to bring the fun back, or the money is going to go to something that is fun to play, made by people who love to play it, not some cashsuck made by businessmen.

    Most of this is my opinion, but this next part isn't-

    BUSINESS ONLY HAPPENS FOR THOSE WHO PROVIDE SOMETHING THE PEOPLE WANT!
    Last edited by Beloth; Mar 09 2010 at 10:05 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    BG like any other piece of content can either go from strength to strength or go downhill depending on treatment in subsequent patches.

    fixation on stopping emergent behavior can mean raid is unexploitable but has significant polish issues.

    its easy to see that when comparing BG to DN. one can clearly see the priority is different... that cartoon someone linked is relevant.
    Otherwise we would have seen bugged warg fixed before LT and durchest changes made... the former jsut means more wipes for players, the latter means encounter is too easy or players are using strategy not WAI (kiting, leaving LT in yellow, ranged stack).

    I can guarantee that bugs and lack of polish is far more detrimental to success of raid than encounters being too easy.
    Last edited by wyldcyde; Mar 09 2010 at 10:04 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    I don't really subscribe to any conspiracy theories. They just don't have enough people to adequately develop and test the game anymore. Therefore we get expansions with no character advancement, content-less updates, skirmishes in place of real content, and mysterious bugs that come and (occasionally) go with no warning. The fact that nobody even realized or documented the ginormous change to resists looks to me like just one obvious example of too few people spread too thin over too big a project.

    Hats off to the folks who *are* still working on the game; given how few they appear to be, they are no doubt making heroic efforts to keep things from being even worse. The problem looks to me like management cutting a lot of corners on staffing. Six developers, no matter how good they are, can't do the job of twelve. Ten can't do the job of twenty, etc.

  19. #19
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    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    It's pretty obvious Resources are elsewhere at this point.
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  20. #20

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    as jayssen said, if you got the tank swapping part sorted, adapting your strat to do HM again wont take long, maybe one wipe and you will have it back in farming mode in no time. So, dont give up!

    I can totally see the OP point. Yes, it shouldnt be a problem to re-learn a strat IF you have an incentive to do it.

    30 minutes trash between bosses (much more if you are still learning the trash pulls), bad (SERIOUSLY BAD) loot and a not really good armour set (and lame bonuses) doesnt justify increasing the difficulty.

    Bad loot (no one in my kin even roll for the stuff) + moving the end goal (strategy that changes) + good changes of getting pwned by the RNG = not fun

    And Turbine, kitting is an valid strategy for the Lt. fight phase 1 (the only option really) why is kitting not valid for durchest? if PUGs want to kite the first boss? who cares? I'd love to see that multiple strats can solve the same problem, not just 1 strat with 1 group setup using only 1 gear set
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  21. #21

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Quote Originally Posted by cspartano1978 View Post
    as jayssen said, if you got the tank swapping part sorted, adapting your strat to do HM again wont take long, maybe one wipe and you will have it back in farming mode in no time. So, dont give up!

    I can totally see the OP point. Yes, it shouldnt be a problem to re-learn a strat IF you have an incentive to do it.

    30 minutes trash between bosses (much more if you are still learning the trash pulls), bad (SERIOUSLY BAD) loot and a not really good armour set (and lame bonuses) doesnt justify increasing the difficulty.

    Bad loot (no one in my kin even roll for the stuff) + moving the end goal (strategy that changes) + good changes of getting pwned by the RNG = not fun

    And Turbine, kitting is an valid strategy for the Lt. fight phase 1 (the only option really) why is kitting not valid for durchest? if PUGs want to kite the first boss? who cares? I'd love to see that multiple strats can solve the same problem, not just 1 strat with 1 group setup using only 1 gear set
    Yeah, we are not giving up, just have to change our group make up a little. We had 2 Guards, a champ, 2 hunters, 2 rk's. lm, burg, 2 mini's and a cappy. We are changing 1 guard for a cappy now. And again, I don't mind earning things, but don't let us learn it one way if we are going to be FORCED to learn it another.... At least tell us its going to change too. They told us SG was changing...

  22. #22

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Um, not exactly hardcore here. I tend to post in agreement with the folks who complain that something or other is unnecessarily difficult (i.e., the opening Mirkwood instanced area for ungrouped players).

    But I don't see anything inherently wrong with raid fights changing. To me there's nothing duller than memorizing a strat for a raid boss and repeating it over and over, week after week, month after month.

    So, yeah, the Durchest fight changed with the patch. We went in over the weekend and wiped a couple of times. Repair bills, etc. Frustration. Then we figured it out and beat it HM and went on to get our first Twins HM kill the same evening. It was challenging, but there really weren't *that* many things we had to do differently.

    I have no real problem with the raid itself. My problem is with the lousy loot.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000040133/01008/signature.png]Ardeth[/charsig]
    [CENTER][SIZE="2"][COLOR="Cyan"]Ardeth --75 minstrel; Mirianor--75 RK; Philippa--75 captain;[/CENTER][CENTER]Brynna--68 burg; Ellaril--72 hunter; Irulan--67 loremaster[/COLOR][/SIZE][/CENTER]

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    5,862

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    Lously loot, respawning raid, buggy encounters ------------> Sad panda.
    .

    You currently have 1337 reputation point(s).

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Christchurch New Zealand
    Posts
    3,569

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    book1 would have been an excellent opportunity to make changes like:
    1. guaranteed symbol drops from hardmodes.
    2. add some more teal/orange rares.
    3. fix the last sorcerer/warg pull.
    4. disable respawns, or for lock 2 and 3 make timer only start when last mob killed.
    5. fix the set bonuses, some don't work.
    6. polish encounters so having 4 ranged and 1 max champ isn't the default config for majority of groups (not just some that already had raid on farm)

    tick tock
    Last edited by wyldcyde; Mar 10 2010 at 12:19 AM.
    [center][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/wyldcyde"]WyldCyde[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Chn [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/rafael"]Rafael[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 LM [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/delenn"]Delenn[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Hnt [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/tendai"]Tendai[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 RK [/COLOR][B][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/weirdo"]Weirdo[/URL][/B] [COLOR=cyan]65 Brg [/color][COLOR="Gray"]secret[/COLOR] [COLOR="Cyan"]65 Hnt[/COLOR][/center]
    [center][URL="http://off-peak.guildlaunch.com/"]OFF PEAK Kinship (Elendilmir)[/URL][/center]

  25. #25

    Re: Was all our hard work for nothing in learning BG before the last Update?

    im not sure what all the complaining is about, the only issue i saw on first 2 boss fights is more resists and durchest is no longer slowed, these problems arent hard to work around, our group, which is not a kin wiped once on durchest and killed twins with no difficulty at all both HM then went on to kill LT easy mode. Even with changes the instance is really not that much harder until you get to LT. Being able to improvise and think on your feet is important in raiding, the strats really did not change for the first 2 fights just need to work around resists, im very sorry to read that ppl are canceling their accounts because something got a bit more difficult but to each their own i guess.

 

 
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