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  1. #1301

    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    The case of Androg is really a tough one. My initial inclination was that Androg would not count because his misdeeds were committed as part of an outlaw band, and he essentially remained an outlaw throughout the story. My thinking was that he was never caught by the authorities and punished for his crimes (c.f., Sauron, Saruman and Morgoth), and then returned to his misdeeds. However, this is just a friendly trivial thread and believe it or not I do try to construe my riddles liberally. So, after careful consideration, I think we can get there by focusing on two particular instances of Androg's conduct and Turin's role as the master of the band (e.g., the government). I don't have the texts handy, but here is an excerpt from the Lotr Wiki for Androg:

    "When Túrin first appeared among the outlaws and slew one of their men, Andróg quickly perceived both Túrin's superiority and the Curse of Morgoth that followed him, but still esteemed him and became one of his closest followers. Later Túrin spared Andróg despite his participating in Forweg's attempt to trap Larnach's daughter, and Andróg supported him in becoming the leader of the band. After Beleg was captured by the outlaws, Andróg egged them to kill him, coveting Beleg's bow Belthronding, and he showed no favour to the Elf even after his release by Túrin."

    Here, Androg's transgression is the attempted mistreatment of Larnach's daughter. Turin punishes the misconduct (was this was the reason that Turin killed Forweg and took over as leader of the band?), but pardons Androg for his role in it. Later Androg mistreats the captive Beleg (who can be seen as standing in as similar role as the daughter), even though Turin had established that such conduct was not acceptable in the band under his leadership. Voila, recidivist.
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  2. #1302
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    About Androg:

    Remember what he did at the final episode of his life.

    From Wikipedia:

    During the sack of Amon Rûdh, Andróg led some of the band to the top of the hill by a secret stair that he discovered some time before. There he fought more valiantly than any, but fell mortally wounded by an arrow. When Mîm attempted to slay Beleg, who had been tied down by orcs, Andróg used the last of his strength to take up a sword and ward off the dwarf. He cut Beleg's bonds and then died, saying: "Not even your healing can mend my hurts".
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  3. #1303

    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Thanks Boraxxe. That is a good counterexample to the point I made a few posts back about mercy not appearing to be much rewarded in Tolkien's works.
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  4. #1304
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    actually, what I had in mind was when he killed Mim's son and then later took up a bow again despite the fact that Mim had 'cursed' him. Im actually pretty new to tolkien books and just finished children of Hurin so if Im wrong, please correct me.
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  5. #1305

    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Quote Originally Posted by Elangr View Post
    actually, what I had in mind was when he killed Mim's son and then later took up a bow again despite the fact that Mim had 'cursed' him. Im actually pretty new to tolkien books and just finished children of Hurin so if Im wrong, please correct me.
    Well, what you recite did actually happen in the book, but I wouldn't consider that a case of recidivism as the word is generally used in American english. I believe that the word has a strong connotation of returning to wrongful behavior after having been caught and punished (or pardoned) by the authorities. For our purposes I have broadly interpreted "authorities" to include any figure in a position of authority over the wrongdoer, including authority by conquest (e.g., Treebeard over Saruman) and by possession of a talisman of lordship (Frodo over Gollum). In Gollum's case, we also have the wood-elves who showed him lieniency as his jailors. The more I think about it, including Turin (as master of the warband) over Androg works for establishing the necessary authority. I wouldn't consider Mim to work in this sense because he was a captive of Androg's warband at the time of his curse. Also, I don't think merely taking up the bow again would really qualify for the prong of "returning to wrongful behavior." Androg's misdeed here was shooting Mim's son in the back as he fled. I don't think that mere continued use of the bow in carrying out the warband's operations really fits the sense of recidivism.

    Regardless, I still give you credit for solving the riddle, even if the solution works in a way other than you had intended.
    Last edited by Vilnas; Nov 30 2011 at 11:53 AM.
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  6. #1306
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilnas View Post
    Well, what you recite did actually happen in the book, but I wouldn't consider that a case of recidivism as the word is generally used in American english. I believe that the word has a strong connotation of returning to wrongful behavior after having been caught and punished (or pardoned) by the authorities. For our purposes I have broadly interpreted "authorities" to include any figure in a position of authority over the wrongdoer, including authority by conquest (e.g., Treebeard over Saruman) and by possession of a talisman of lordship (Frodo over Gollum). In Gollum's case, we also have the wood-elves who showed him lieniency as his jailors. The more I think about it, including Turin (as master of the warband) over Androg works for establishing the necessary authority. I wouldn't consider Mim to work in this sense because he was a captive of Androg's warband at the time of his curse. Also, I don't think merely taking up the bow again would really qualify for the prong of "returning to wrongful behavior." Androg's misdeed here was shooting Mim's son in the back as he fled. I don't think that mere continued use of the bow in carrying out the warband's operations really fits the sense of recidivism.

    Regardless, I still give you credit for solving the riddle, even if the solution works in a way other than you had intended.
    Ok, thanks. I will have a new riddle very soon.
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  7. #1307
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    This should be eeeeaaasy:

    Vampire
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  8. #1308
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Quote Originally Posted by Elangr View Post
    This should be eeeeaaasy:

    Vampire
    Thuringwethil, the vampire that Luthien temporarily used the identity of.
    [URL=http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=279975]My first raid idea.[/URL]
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  9. #1309

    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Thuringwethil is one of my favorite Tolkien names of all time. I love how The Silmarillion incorporated the concepts of both vampires and werewolves in a way that wasn't Halloween gothic.
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  10. #1310
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylux14 View Post
    Thuringwethil, the vampire that Luthien temporarily used the identity of.
    no

    (more letters)
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  11. #1311

    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Quote Originally Posted by Elangr View Post
    no

    (more letters)
    But Thuringwethil is one of the few places in the entire canon where Tolkien actually uses the word vampire. Unfortunately I don't have access to the text of The Silmarillion right now, but here are a few reference links.

    http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/thuringwethil.html
    http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/v/vampires.html
    http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Thuringwethil

    The other vampire reference that comes to mind is in the same chapter, where Sauron takes a vampire form and flies away from Luthien and Huan. Of the two, I think Thuringwethil is the better answer because the only thing we know about her is that she appeared in vampire bat form, whereas Sauron was clearly a different sort of being, and merely took the vampire form at one time.

    For your riddle, since you have rejected Thuringwethil, I would say the bats in the Battle of Five Armies, which fastened vampire like upon the stricken.
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  12. #1312
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilnas View Post
    But Thuringwethil is one of the few places in the entire canon where Tolkien actually uses the word vampire. Unfortunately I don't have access to the text of The Silmarillion right now, but here are a few reference links.

    http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/thuringwethil.html
    http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/v/vampires.html
    http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Thuringwethil

    The other vampire reference that comes to mind is in the same chapter, where Sauron takes a vampire form and flies away from Luthien and Huan. Of the two, I think Thuringwethil is the better answer because the only thing we know about her is that she appeared in vampire bat form, whereas Sauron was clearly a different sort of being, and merely took the vampire form at one time.

    For your riddle, since you have rejected Thuringwethil, I would say the bats in the Battle of Five Armies, which fastened vampire like upon the stricken.
    lets say that the thing is not a vampire. i am comparing it to a vampire.
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  13. #1313

    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Quote Originally Posted by Elangr View Post
    lets say that the thing is not a vampire. i am comparing it to a vampire.
    The bats from the Battle of Five Armies weren't vampires, Tolkien merely compared them to vampires by means of a simile ("fastened vampire-like upon the fallen"), so under your clarifying guidelines that answer should have worked.

    Could you let us know how are Thuringwethil, Sauron and the 5 Armies bats wrong answers? No offense intended, but the custom of the group in these riddle threads has generally been to accept qualifying answers even though they may not be one answer the riddler had originally intended. Rejecting otherwise qualified answers until the intended answer is provided causes the riddle game to devolve into an exercise of "guess what I am thinking" which tends to be less satisfying for the guessers. If an answer appears to qualify but should be rejected, we try to give a reason why the suggested answer doesn't quite work. Sometimes it is as simple as there being some other "best" answer. One example is the clue "Great Fortress." On its face it would seem that there are any number of acceptable answers (e.g., Minas Tirith, Barad-dur). However, in that case Belegost is the "best" answer because the name is a direct translation of "Great Fortress." For the "vampire" clue, I am scratching my head to see a way in which Sylux's offering of Thuringwethil isn't the best available solution from the texts.

    If we are going to play the guess-what-I-am-thinking game, my next offering is Gollum, as described by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond when he told of the blood-drinking creature in the night that terrorized the Woodmen.
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  14. #1314
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Ok sorry about that. Indeed they are all acceptable answers, but you were on the right track when you said gollum was "blood-drinking"
    see if you can think of anything else that 'drinks blood'. (Hint: drinking blood is a figure of speech, even though that term is used by one of tolkiens characters)
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  15. #1315
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    The Flies of Mordor, drank blood apparently.
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  16. #1316
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    No, sorry, that's not what I was thinking. If someone wants to ask a new riddle, be my guest, unless you guys want to see if you can guess what I had in mind. Otherwise, sylux gets the next riddle.

    (Still new to this, so if anyone would like to correct my tolkien-trivia ettiqitte, please do)

    Morthaur was on the right track with the blood drinking though.
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  17. #1317
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    How about Shelob?

    I think the text has her drinking the blood of elves and men.
    "Just like Mary Shelly, Just like Frankenstein, Break your chains, And count your change, And try to walk the line"

  18. #1318
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Anglachel?

    Sorry, I dont have the Silmarillion but found this in Wikipedia...
    "Hail Gurthang! No lord or loyalty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee. From no blood wilt thou shrink. Wilt thou therefore take Túrin Turambar, wilt thou slay me swiftly?"
    And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: "Yes, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly."
    "Aurë Entuluva!"

  19. #1319
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Quote Originally Posted by Elenluin-Menelloth View Post
    Anglachel?

    Sorry, I dont have the Silmarillion but found this in Wikipedia...
    "Hail Gurthang! No lord or loyalty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee. From no blood wilt thou shrink. Wilt thou therefore take Túrin Turambar, wilt thou slay me swiftly?"
    And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: "Yes, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly."
    Haha yes!! Good job
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  20. #1320
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    I'm glad it was correct but I can't think up a riddle at the moment, probably because I have exams tomorrow. So I'm handing the riddle-mantle to anyone who wants it.
    "Aurë Entuluva!"

  21. #1321
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Here's one:

    Masthead.

    Have fun with it.

  22. #1322
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Quote Originally Posted by CarsontheSage View Post
    Here's one:

    Masthead.

    Have fun with it.
    Wasn't it Queen Berúthiel that was last seen in a ship sailing past Umbar with one of those legendary cats on the masthead?
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  23. #1323
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Quote Originally Posted by Boraxxe View Post
    Wasn't it Queen Berúthiel that was last seen in a ship sailing past Umbar with one of those legendary cats on the masthead?
    Correct.

    That was rather fast....

  24. #1324
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    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    Quote Originally Posted by CarsontheSage View Post
    Correct.

    That was rather fast....
    I have to admit I had to do some Googling to get there.

    It has been many years since I read Unfinished Tales.

    BTW: that is the only place that masthead and Tolkien connect.

    LOTR, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, The Children Of Hurin ... none of those would have got you there.

    Quite a poser. I congratulate you.

    Now I have to come up with a clue.

    Ok, how about "Blemish"

    "Just like Mary Shelly, Just like Frankenstein, Break your chains, And count your change, And try to walk the line"

  25. #1325

    Re: One-word Tolkien Trivia

    A synonym for "Pimple" which was a derogatory nickname given to Lotho Sackville-Baggins.
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