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  1. #1

    Stop all the solo quest walls.

    We're grouped we're questing. Bam! Another freaking solo quest wall in the chain we're doing and we have to break up.

    Seriously NOT FUN to breakup and reform every few quests.

    There no reason you can't let 6 ppl go into a solo instance. You don't have to balance it for 6 ppl. Just let them go in and easy mode it.

    SOLO INSTANCE=no limit on how many can go in! Solo difficulty!

    When ppl say they want "more solo quests". They mean "Easier", as in "solo difficulty" that you can do solo or bring 2-6 ppl into when they want.

    It's fine to make solo quests, but really uncool to not allow us all to go into the solo instances and continue doing the Quest Chain.

    Allow 6 ppl to go into the solo's!
    Last edited by emirikol; Mar 03 2010 at 02:37 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    No thanks, but I'd still like to be able to enter solo instances while still in a group.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    It would be nice if the tech supported players running separate solo instances while remaining in a fellowship; if only to avoid this kind of frustration.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    This is frustrating for me as well. The only thing I can think of for why they can't do it is NPC repsonses to characters. For instance with 3.1.? (can't remember the chapter) where the Blue Lady comes in. I never did that quest chain on my Minstrel, so she was like, "Who are you?" But she recognized my husband when he did his solo instance. I'm not sure how they would handle stuff like that.
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  5. #5
    MadeOfLions is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frieja View Post
    This is frustrating for me as well. The only thing I can think of for why they can't do it is NPC repsonses to characters.
    That's one of the reasons. The other is that many solo instances depend on the designer knowing exactly where you are at certain points, in order to make all the moving pieces work properly. With multiple people in the space, we become less able to pull some of the fancy tricks we pull in those spaces.

    Orion's work to soloify Volume I means that we might be able to include more of the traditional instances in the Epic line, but I'm not really willing to give up the solo instances in which we can do so much story heavy-lifting.

    MoL

  6. #6
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Location of the solo quest in the chain is the most important, I think. The solo quest at the end of the Fem Armor chain in Angmar is fine, since you can do a 2-3 man group up to that point and afterward, the chain is done. A solo quest at the beginning of the chain is also fine to set a story up. It was a bit jarring in V3B1 to have a two public instances early on, where the rush of people made grouping up practical as a matter of efficiency, followed by several private solo instances, but with a bunch of travel in between everything that makes grouping with a Hunter so nice.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Personally I don't think it's any big deal. We broke up, did the solos at the same time and then re-grouped. And I have really enjoyed the 3.1 stuff.
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  8. #8

    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linwe-Elfmaiden View Post
    Personally I don't think it's any big deal. We broke up, did the solos at the same time and then re-grouped. And I have really enjoyed the 3.1 stuff.
    It's a very big deal for our six. Usually two ppl finish a solo and stand around, someones going to fail and have to redo while we all wait, someone may disappear during the solo and we don't know if we should wait for continue without them. If one person can't do it, it holds up the whole group.

    It's a gap in our fun and not worth it. We've decided if we hit a solo quest wall, we won't do the series. So, no skirmishes, a solo tutorial blocks it. No Vol 2, book 9. We'll check the new book today and see if its doable by group.

    Doing Book 9 has seven solo walls to breakup our group. Was more of a trail of patience waiting for everyone to finish the solo's than fun.

    Also the Skirmish tutorial has 2 solo walls I think.We've all done it twice, we aren't going to bother doing it 7 more times each.

    The tutorial for the skirmish should have an option to skip. Why do I want to do a solo tutorial for each of my nine characters? The idea of a skirmish is a quick game with some friends. Your blocking the "quick" part with a solo tutorial that I have to do over and over?

  9. #9

    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    i think there should always be the option to choose whether we'd like to do an instance by ourselves or in different groupings.

  10. #10

    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    That's one of the reasons. The other is that many solo instances depend on the designer knowing exactly where you are at certain points, in order to make all the moving pieces work properly. With multiple people in the space, we become less able to pull some of the fancy tricks we pull in those spaces.

    Orion's work to soloify Volume I means that we might be able to include more of the traditional instances in the Epic line, but I'm not really willing to give up the solo instances in which we can do so much story heavy-lifting.

    MoL
    I'm sure there's a way to get 6 ppl past a special solo only doable instance that Walls them off from the rest of the Quest Chain.
    -Put the other 5 ppl in noncorporeal spectator mode so they can watch, Frap and talk, but not interfere with the action. Let the groups best or most willing take on the instance. (Examples of spectator modes as in: Quakes player cam, GW's Pvp stationary Cam.)
    -Or allow ppl to skip solo's. No reward, but they can continue in the quest chain. By passing the solo wall.
    -Or the group could branch off the quest chain at the solo and converge when it isn't solo. Just another way of saying skip. Grouped go one way, solo go a different way.
    -Or bunch all the solo quests at the end of the series or off a branch the grouped players can ignore, but still do most of the content.
    -Or have the solo instances as optional branches, with rewards for completion they can do alone later. But make the quest chain doable entirely as a group.
    Last edited by emirikol; Mar 03 2010 at 03:41 PM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Agreed. "Solo only" quests are a poor fit in an MMO. Scaling the difficulty would be best, but even if the quest becomes "too easy" in a group, so what? This is supposed to be about fun and if people have more fun grouping, what's wrong with that?

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  12. #12
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    Post Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    What MadeOfLions said.

    When we place you in a guaranteed solo instance, we can make a whole different set of assumptions about how the space is going to be traversed than when we are making it for 2 or more players.

    That, and to be blunt we don't always want you to be able to trivialize the difficulty of content by zerging an instance as a group. In some cases we don't mind that - in others we do.

    On landscape that must always be the assumption, but in instances we're sometimes intentionally setting a bar that requires more than just effort - skill and preparedness can be a factor as well.

    Generally speaking, players stop learning and improving without occasionally facing adversity that must be overcome. On a similar tack, adventure should not always be entirely convenient or one gradually ceases to gain any fulfillment from it.

    But still, it is more about what MadeOfLions said originally - when we can guarantee that a single player is the center of attention for a time, then the story telling tools available to us become much more powerful.

  13. #13
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    What MadeOfLions said.

    When we place you in a guaranteed solo instance, we can make a whole different set of assumptions about how the space is going to be traversed than when we are making it for 2 or more players.

    That, and to be blunt we don't always want you to be able to trivialize the difficulty of content by zerging an instance as a group. In some cases we don't mind that - in others we do.

    On landscape that must always be the assumption, but in instances we're sometimes intentionally setting a bar that requires more than just effort - skill and preparedness can be a factor as well.

    Generally speaking, players stop learning and improving without occasionally facing adversity that must be overcome. On a similar tack, adventure should not always be entirely convenient or one gradually ceases to gain any fulfillment from it.

    But still, it is more about what MadeOfLions said originally - when we can guarantee that a single player is the center of attention for a time, then the story telling tools available to us become much more powerful.
    Excellent. There is a place in this game for group-only stuff, solo-only stuff and the 90% of content that is in between. Some people. No doubt a lot are the habitual duos who are so used to easy-mode landscape content they struggle with solo content, but I really don't know what the rest have a problem with.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post

    That, and to be blunt we don't always want you to be able to trivialize the difficulty of content by zerging an instance as a group. In some cases we don't mind that - in others we do.

    .
    May I be blunt?

    Too late, here I go. And I respectuflly apologize in advance because I'm terribly frustrated with the current status of the game and the apparent direction the game seems to be going in.

    I haven't seen anything solo that isn't trivial already. In fact it's far more of a challenge in this game to GET a group/raid than it is to DO 99% of the content with a group/raid.

    BG, the "toughest instance EVER": The most difficult part of it is convincing my friends to log in once a week to play LotRO to run the instance.

    What "solo" material are you talking about that is challenging even in the slightest?

    I was terribly disappointed at how trivial this book was. Not just that it was a bunch of "go talk to" quests, but that these HUGE open instances were just populated with chump mobs being rolled over by the lowest common denominator players. Don't get me wrong...as always the storytelling aspect and "cool" factor were HIGH...but the gameplay and challenge...not even close.

    I think it's pretty clear that Turbine has choosen to make EVERYTHING in this game achievable by the most casual, least skillful, most whiny players.

    And it's really too bad.

    There were challenges in SoA. The combat system allowed for it.

    Now every encounter is either a faceroll or just a flat dps race.

    Sorry, but I call shenanegans to the idea that you're putting solo quests in to challenge anyone. That may be the theory....but we're not challenged. I assure you.
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  15. #15

    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thane9 View Post
    Sorry, but I call shenanegans to the idea that you're putting solo quests in to challenge anyone. That may be the theory....but we're not challenged. I assure you.
    Your off topic. He was talking about not allowing 6 ppl into a solo instance to zerg it. He agrees with you about easy and doesn't want to make it even easier.

    Personally, I would love to zerg thru the solo instances.

    This thread is about Solo Quests blocking groups from the quest chains. As in 2.9.1 starts with a solo early on (Instance: Hilltop Assault) and has 6 solo's in 20 chapters. Or the 2 Solo skirmish tutorials, blocking the groups from doing skirmishes. And I think even the entry to Mirkwood requires being solo.
    Last edited by emirikol; Mar 03 2010 at 03:32 PM.

  16. #16
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    Cool Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thane9 View Post
    May I be blunt?
    What "solo" material are you talking about that is challenging even in the slightest?
    To you? Probably not much, but frankly we can't build most of our content around the expectations of our best players - or not those who purport to be, at any rate.

    Our statistics suggest that the game is quite a bit more difficult than the one you subjectively experience, but that is to be expected. YMMV according to personal skill and perseverance, as with any game.

    Prior to reaching cap, the easiest way to challenge yourself is simply to 'fight up' or fight aggressively through camps. After cap you may need to be a bit more creative at times if you find the game too relaxing.

    Might I suggest 'No Pants Thursday'? That was a favorite of one of my old guilds when we had some major raid or instance on boring farm status.

    Removing major armor segments tends to increase the challenge level of most content considerably. The fewer you can roll through with, the better your bragging rights.

    Better yet, our cosmetic armor system allows you do so while avoiding the embarrassment of exposing yourself to the forces of Darkness!

  17. #17
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Does that mean we can get an "Impressive Drunkenness" buff in Book 2 that will give us the Sad Panda effect for the entirely of the instance?
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  18. #18
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thane9 View Post

    I think it's pretty clear that Turbine has choosen to make EVERYTHING in this game achievable by the most casual, least skillful, most whiny players.
    It seems to me that some of the most skillful players are also the most whiny. Just sayin'. . . .

  19. #19

    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    On the other side of the coin, thanks for at least separating the solo-only instances from the group-allowed stuff. At least I can get a group together for the early chapters, then split off and do both the solo-only instances on my own.

    I think it's 3.1.6 and 3.1.7 that are the instances, right? Can you imagine how obnoxious it would be if 3.1.2 and 3.1.5 were the solo-only instances, and your group re-formed after the first one only to get split up again?

  20. #20
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    To you? Probably not much, but frankly we can't build most of our content around the expectations of our best players - or not those who purport to be, at any rate.

    Our statistics suggest that the game is quite a bit more difficult than the one you subjectively experience, but that is to be expected. YMMV according to personal skill and perseverance, as with any game.

    Prior to reaching cap, the easiest way to challenge yourself is simply to 'fight up' or fight aggressively through camps. After cap you may need to be a bit more creative at times if you find the game too relaxing.

    Might I suggest 'No Pants Thursday'? That was a favorite of one of my old guilds when we had some major raid or instance on boring farm status.

    Removing major armor segments tends to increase the challenge level of most content considerably. The fewer you can roll through with, the better your bragging rights.

    Better yet, our cosmetic armor system allows you do so while avoiding the embarrassment of exposing yourself to the forces of Darkness!
    Ok, that sounded a little condescending, as if you think we don't know how to take care of our gameplay. It really wasn't in line with the OPs request to not have walls in the middle of a quest line - what does that have to do with creatively challenging ourselves at endgame?

    I HATE solo-only instances because it splits me from my friends. And I get lost easily. I got so frustrated in the Forochel cavern I had to log and take a break before I could come back to relax a bit. Please tell me how that remotely improved my gameplay session.

    My friend is having issues with the dreaded Vol 2 Book 9 Ch 16 quest. As a result, he still doesn't have the Battle in the Tower skirmish so that's one less thing we can do together. Tell me how that obstacle has made the game more enjoyable for either of us.

    It really hit us in the face back in Vol 1 book 11 with that silly elf chick and the vignettes in Delossad - my hunter friend at level barely survived. Then again in book 14 when we had to split up groups twice to do the session plays. In fact it was almost impossible to get groups back together because so many people had trouble completing those session plays.

    It hit again pretty badly with Vol 2 books 7 & 8. Same reason.

    Putting solo-only instances into the middle of a quest line is disruptive. My minnie has a very hard time getting through solo instances unless I go trait her for dps, then retrait her back to heal a group.

    Putting solo-only instances off by themselves, like the Dolven or crafting instances, that's annoying because it's content we can't do together, but at least it's not right in the middle of a quest line. These would have been awesome to duo, yes zerg right through easy-mode, but have fun while doing some repetitive grind work.

    I'd really like to see consistency in the quest lines, so hopefully a group could form and stay together through the end. Even the 3-3-6 combination of instances in books 8 and 9 are an issue.

    And honestly, I'd like to see this story heavy-lifting get done in cut scenes and movies, less NPC dialogue, fetchandcarry and travel, and put more challenges and fights into the actual quests.

    Oh and second that request to be able to skip the skirmish tutorials please.
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  21. #21
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    I don't think Vastin is being condescending in the least. In fact, he makes a very good point that a lot of people don't seem to get: not all content is meant for all people.

    There are so many elements and facets to this game, and player skill and completion rates account for a lot of it. Some are at home leading large-scale raids in the highest of end-game instances. Others can barely get past three landscape quests without dying twice and restocking once. Just because a given player can faceroll content doesn't mean it isn't hard enough... it's just that it's more aimed at the middle than the top.


    But challenge and difficulty is another debate entirely.


    It seems to me that the heart of the OP's comment here isn't so much that people want to do content together in the same space. Rather, it's that it can be disruptive and downright annoying to have to break up a group repeatedly. If people were able to run solo-only instances without breaking up their group, and thus be able to communicate with each other easily while they were doing it, it would make the whole of the experience more enjoyable.
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  22. #22
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    To you? Probably not much, but frankly we can't build most of our content around the expectations of our best players - or not those who purport to be, at any rate.

    Our statistics suggest that the game is quite a bit more difficult than the one you subjectively experience, but that is to be expected. YMMV according to personal skill and perseverance, as with any game.

    Prior to reaching cap, the easiest way to challenge yourself is simply to 'fight up' or fight aggressively through camps. After cap you may need to be a bit more creative at times if you find the game too relaxing.

    Might I suggest 'No Pants Thursday'? That was a favorite of one of my old guilds when we had some major raid or instance on boring farm status.

    Removing major armor segments tends to increase the challenge level of most content considerably. The fewer you can roll through with, the better your bragging rights.

    Better yet, our cosmetic armor system allows you do so while avoiding the embarrassment of exposing yourself to the forces of Darkness!
    Seriously though. Did Anyone not just stroll through this last book?

    I can't even imagine needing to use a cooldown or a consumable to complete it all.

    Are you honestly saying people did? Really? Who are these people? Can you list their names. I'd be happy to help them out.

    Because unless they're disabled in some way, I honestly just can't see how this past book could've provided a skill challenge to anyone who has hit the level cap.

    or are you suggesting Volume 3 is to be done at L60 instead of 65?

    I'm honestly not trying to be snarky. It's mind boggling to me to think that those normy mobs and a smattering of solo sigs was anything more than just a 30s time sink between dialogue triggers.

    And now I will be a bit snarky:

    Pantless day? So it's now MY duty to challenge myself by not playing the game as intended? Are you really saying that the devs are happy catering to the lowest abled player possible and everyone else can just gimp themselves if they're looking for any kind of gameplay?

    I'm honestly confused. What would be wrong with a game where skill enters play more often than a couple boss fights for half a year at a time?
    Last edited by Thane9; Mar 03 2010 at 04:39 PM.
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  23. #23
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Better yet, our cosmetic armor system allows you do so while avoiding the embarrassment of exposing yourself to the forces of Darkness!
    And btw, cosmetics are turned off in the zone I spend 95% of my time while I wait for more/new/different content.

    So I can't even do that.
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  24. #24
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    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadzi View Post

    It seems to me that the heart of the OP's comment here isn't so much that people want to do content together in the same space. Rather, it's that it can be disruptive and downright annoying to have to break up a group repeatedly. If people were able to run solo-only instances without breaking up their group, and thus be able to communicate with each other easily while they were doing it, it would make the whole of the experience more enjoyable.
    A group from our kin did just that --we simply used ventrilo.

    As for the other "too easy" comments-- well not everyone is uber-leet-tastic. Yes for MOST of my toons 3.1 was pretty easy-- quite pleasant actually... oddly enough though on my minstrel the skirmish almost drove me to rage-quit. For some dumb reason I really had trouble doing that on my minstrel. Another minstrel in our kin likewise had a horrid time of it.

    Personally, I like the fact that you can crank up the level and tiers on the skirmishes and make life as difficult for yourself as you like.
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  25. #25

    Re: Stop all the solo quest walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Removing major armor segments tends to increase the challenge level of most content considerably. The fewer you can roll through with, the better your bragging rights.
    It really bugs me that magic robes and not heroic fortitude, skill and training is the focus of this game.
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