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  1. #101
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Sorry on that.... too many math classes in college, and I started to write a proof XD Apologies if it's difficult to understand.

    Think of the relationship below like an equation for a second:

    banner + banner item + SfW = herald + armament

    If the restriction is removed from SfW, where it can be slotted and used at any point, the equation would change to:

    banner + banner item + SfW = herald + armament + SfW

    And since that restriction is removed, it really doesn't matter if it's banner vs herald, so you might as well remove SfW from the equation, which would give:

    banner + banner item = herald + armament

    Compared to the original:

    banner + banner item + SfW = herald + armament
    banner + banner item = herald + armament

    The banner side has "lost" SfW, because it's not as restrictive anymore. This change would easily make SfW one of our best traits - a good self heal on a 20s cooldown with no drawbacks, other than increased power consumption?
    Here is your problem. You are saying you have "lost" SFW because you've forgotten what your equation represents. Your equation DOES NOT represent the options available. It represents the balance between them. Putting SfW on both sides means it no longer needs to be considered from the standpoint of Herald vs Banner balance. It is ABSOLUTELY STILL available to the banner users and they have lost nothing, no matter how much theoretical mathemagical justification and semantics you throw at it, nothing is lost by this change.

    I consider it intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.

  2. #102
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Either way, by removing the restriction from SfW, SfW becomes one of the, if not THE, best captain traits. Do we really need to give captains yet another reason to spec HoH just to fix the herald?
    You are acting from the perspective that people are not doing this already. I think that's false assumption. Additionally, nothing about HoH spec will have improved, nor will this trait have been improved - you will merely have the option to use it under more circumstances.

    It doesn't even fix the herald all by itself. It just allows you to gimp yourself less by choosing the herald.

    You seem to be having problems understanding the fact that people who want to use SfW are already doing so. This just allows people who, for whatever reason, would like to use the pet, to choose SfW if they want.

    Lend Will needs to have it's cool down halved, it's costs to the herald reduced (let's rip away 1/4 it's morale and a good chunk of it's power for a mediocre heal at best), and the healing amount buffed so that it's somewhat comparable to a traited SfW.... let alone MC + SfW + legacy
    So... you propose that we make large changes to a herald skill so that the herald skill can still be inferior to SfW?

    I'm frankly in favor of both improving lend will AND letting herald users use SfW. This will mean that the Captain who chooses to forego the banner bonuses and go to the trouble of managing a pet will be significantly more survivable than a captain who decides to run the banner - and therefore recieve the extra morale, DPS, and lack of pet management.

  3. #103
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    You are acting from the perspective that people are not doing this already. I think that's false assumption. Additionally, nothing about HoH spec will have improved, nor will this trait have been improved - you will merely have the option to use it under more circumstances.

    It doesn't even fix the herald all by itself. It just allows you to gimp yourself less by choosing the herald.

    You seem to be having problems understanding the fact that people who want to use SfW are already doing so. This just allows people who, for whatever reason, would like to use the pet, to choose SfW if they want.
    Soo... instead of actually fixing the problem, we should go with a solution that basically makes Lend Will getting fixed harder to justify? Why fix Lend Will if a captain can just slot SfW with the herald? This is the problem with the "easy" fixes... they usually muck things up worse than if the herald was overhauled to begin with.

    And breaking SfW isn't going to help this line.... How many times do I have to keep repeating myself: Let's not give HoH yet another reason to keep one of their traits permanently slotted.

    How many of us have Now For Wrath slotted 24/7? (All of us - it helps with our power regen).
    How many of us would slot SfW after the change you've suggested (All of us - You'd be stupid not to).

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    So... you propose that we make large changes to a herald skill so that the herald skill can still be inferior to SfW?
    The difference I'm referring to is Lend Will being a 90% to SfW's 100%. Still inferior, but since you're giving up the herald and spending a trait slot for a skill, SfW's healing should be better.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    I'm frankly in favor of both improving lend will AND letting herald users use SfW. This will mean that the Captain who chooses to forego the banner bonuses and go to the trouble of managing a pet will be significantly more survivable than a captain who decides to run the banner - and therefore recieve the extra morale, DPS, and lack of pet management.
    There's a lot to be said for sticking the herald on passive/assist, and letting it take care of itself, especially in group situations. Then the challenge becomes keeping your herald alive long enough for it to be useful.

    Let our herald's OT something in a group? Even traited, it still can't pull the agro, hold agro, or survive long enough to be considered anything other than a redshirt. That needs to be fixed.

    As for damage? I thought the tradeoff of herald vs archer was the choice between buff or damage?

    To much self healing and it comes down to running us out of power before we die. That's kinda OP - and will open up tons of doors to abuse content. Do you really want to see another nerf because we figured out how to abuse our skills again? **cough** IHW **cough**

    I'm also all in favor of adding stats to the armaments, maybe +ICPR, or something different from +damage and +morale on the banner. Getting higher level armaments with said stats on them would do a lot towards making our herald/arcer better. Everyone that's currently running a herald is using either the critted level 40 armaments or the ghost armaments. It's time we saw some new armaments anyway.

    That would leave just the herald skills to be addressed....
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  4. #104
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    Yea, you know captains already barely even use heralds. I know at least a couple of you sitting here arguing about this trait line have never even use a herald in a real raid. Even for me at current I still can't find use for my herald, because the game has already catered to the people who hate pets so much that useing a herald is an automatic gimping of your personal capabilities.

    So sure Lets just ignore heralds because they are a footnote in a trait line that was made for heralds. Lets make the yellow Trait line into a super duper buffing line with no focus on heralds at all so they can fade into memory then turbine can just take the herald summoning skills out of the game with a patch and no one will even notice.

    If you can't tell i am being extremely sarcastic =)


    It really piss's me off when people ignore that captain is a -----> Pet Class <----
    Why turbine ever decided to give cop out banners to everyone is beyond me.
    Why does it have to be a "pet class" what a horrible outdated sterotype dating back to the dark ages of gaming. Anyway I loath heralds and have never used one, of any sort, in anger since I got my first banner. If they did away with them completely I'd be happy for sure. Sorry.
    Last edited by findorin-gilrain; Mar 11 2010 at 02:30 PM.
    [FONT=Arial][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0820700000014ca6b/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig][/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Pendarion of Gilrain, Level 75 Captain, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Arafin of Gilrain, Level 75 Elf Lore-master, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Grimbor of Gilrain, Level 75 Dwarf Guardian, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]
    Findorin of Gilrain, Level 70 Elf Hunter, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Grimwise of Gilrain, Level 65 Dwarf Minstrel, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Gilgaran of Gilrain, Level 65 Elf Warden, [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Arafindor of Gilrain. Level 65 Man Champion, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Andarfin of Arkenstone, Level 65 Man Lore-master, G[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]ilgarion of Arkenstone, Level 65 Elf Rune-keeper, [/SIZE][/FONT]

  5. #105
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vormaerin View Post
    Durability and the existance of alternatives. If there were no banners, people would suck it up and use a herald. They'd just learn not to rely on the buff because it would get AoE'ed out of existance at some crucial point anyway.
    If heralds did not exist people would just suck it up and use a banner. Oh wait, quite rightly most of them do already. Get rid of heralds imho, even with better armaments they would be very situational at best.
    [FONT=Arial][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0820700000014ca6b/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig][/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Pendarion of Gilrain, Level 75 Captain, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Arafin of Gilrain, Level 75 Elf Lore-master, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Grimbor of Gilrain, Level 75 Dwarf Guardian, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]
    Findorin of Gilrain, Level 70 Elf Hunter, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Grimwise of Gilrain, Level 65 Dwarf Minstrel, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Gilgaran of Gilrain, Level 65 Elf Warden, [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Arafindor of Gilrain. Level 65 Man Champion, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Andarfin of Arkenstone, Level 65 Man Lore-master, G[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]ilgarion of Arkenstone, Level 65 Elf Rune-keeper, [/SIZE][/FONT]

  6. #106
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post

    Precisely. Ideally, I'd want LoM to be the line that makes your fellowship do lots of damage. If HoH is for making the fellowship durable, LoM should be for making the fellowship deadly.
    This. Don't care how as long as heralds are not part of the equation. I'm Aragorn leading an army with my inspirational banner flying over the battlefield giving heart to my fellows.

    I certainly don't want a lacky following me and all my men losing their inspiration when he is not around. I am the leader, not my lackey.
    [FONT=Arial][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0820700000014ca6b/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig][/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Pendarion of Gilrain, Level 75 Captain, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Arafin of Gilrain, Level 75 Elf Lore-master, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Grimbor of Gilrain, Level 75 Dwarf Guardian, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]
    Findorin of Gilrain, Level 70 Elf Hunter, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Grimwise of Gilrain, Level 65 Dwarf Minstrel, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Gilgaran of Gilrain, Level 65 Elf Warden, [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Arafindor of Gilrain. Level 65 Man Champion, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Andarfin of Arkenstone, Level 65 Man Lore-master, G[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]ilgarion of Arkenstone, Level 65 Elf Rune-keeper, [/SIZE][/FONT]

  7. #107
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    The difference I'm referring to is Lend Will being a 90% to SfW's 100%. Still inferior, but since you're giving up the herald and spending a trait slot for a skill, SfW's healing should be better.
    This is my biggest problem with your whole argument. Banners are better than the herald already. You are not "giving up" anything to use SfW _now_ because losing the Herald isn't a loss. If there were no banners in the game, then yes, SfW would need to be better than the Herald Heal because you would be losing something. As it is, your DPS goes _up_ by equipping a banner. Your personal morale goes up by using a banner.

    At best, you might argue that the herald and the banner are _equal_ if you don't consider SfW (Though I don't know why you would argue that, since you are trying so desperately to get the herald improved). So why should the heal for Herald be inferior? Because SfW is a trait? Great. You've successfully pigeonholed us into the very situation you say you're trying to avoid.

    There's a lot to be said for sticking the herald on passive/assist, and letting it take care of itself, especially in group situations. Then the challenge becomes keeping your herald alive long enough for it to be useful.
    What is killing your herald when you do this? And why is there "a lot to be said for this" when you are losing DPS and personal morale to do it?

    Let our herald's OT something in a group? Even traited, it still can't pull the agro, hold agro, or survive long enough to be considered anything other than a redshirt. That needs to be fixed.
    Why? Do you have real people offtanking in groups? If so, they'll always do better than a pet.

    As for damage? I thought the tradeoff of herald vs archer was the choice between buff or damage?
    Archer could probably stand some DPS improvement too, IMHO.

  8. #108
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by findorin-gilrain View Post
    This. Don't care how as long as heralds are not part of the equation. I'm Aragorn leading an army with my inspirational banner flying over the battlefield giving heart to my fellows.

    I certainly don't want a lacky following me and all my men losing their inspiration when he is not around. I am the leader, not my lackey.
    Yeah, but what's a leader without a lackey? Aragorn didn't carry his own standard on the battlefield, Halbarad did. Halbarad is also one of the listed casualties of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Coincidence? I think not.

    I have a clever new idea. Let's do away with Armaments, (Okay, so we'll lose herald appearance customization. Work with me here. We can solve that one later) and have the captain have a banner equipped at all times. He can summon a herald who will carry the banner, but if the herald dies, he can plant the banner at any time, or just skip the whole 'herald' thing entirely and use banners exactly as he does now.

    This takes the imbalance of stats out of the equation. The captain can provide the buff himself, or the herald can provide it, without needing to swap stuff around. This makes the herald the "bonus" and the banner the "baseline", vs the way it is right now, where the captain with -neither- is the "baseline" and both herald and banner are imbalanced bonuses on top of that.

  9. #109
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Point taken, the LM pets do not provide the big group buffs that the heralds do. However, some of the LM pets do some serious damage (and the raven even provides a group buff). It is not uncommon for a lynx to kick out 1900 damage (and that's without the pet buffing deed). Compared to that the archer's dps is simply laughable. What makes the archer even worse it his/her extremely low morale. Even low-level aoe effects will down them quickly. Similarly, the herald could do with some extra morale or armour. As has been suggested, give us higher level armaments.

  10. #110
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    I apologize if this has already been discussed:

    What if the herald planted the banner upon defeat? A bit of a last stand, plunk the banner in the ground before he/she keels over... This would negate the fellowship buff loss normally associated with losing a herald while "inspiring" the captain with the banner's personal buff.

    This would make for an intriguing modification/addition to the capstone trait. Plus it would be kinda cool... heh!

    Just a thought.

  11. #111
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    I don't really think captain as a class needs sfw, I believe it has just made us lazy gits who don't use revealing mark properly. Revealing mark is a godlike skill that allows us to last much longer against any target we choose. It is also a more reliable and faster heal then sfw if used properly. Inc heal bonus effects this amount as well as any bonus to your personal dps, for instance oathbreakers allows for 35% more dmg which means you are getting 35% more back from Revealing mark during the duration.

    And if you really can't hack it without sfw equip the new mirkwood gloves for solo, 15% chance to give 73 morale on any dmg including each tick of a bleed. Combine that with Revealing mark and seriously who needs sfw for solo? http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Armou...f_the_Gloaming
    I double checked Revealing Mark last night. The incoming healing rating does not improve the mark. You receive exactly 15% of damage done as healing.

    I will not deny that a captain's self healing in HoH is outrageous for solo play. SfW is over powered for solo, especially on top of every other self heal we have. However, I think the real purpose for having SfW as part of the Captain trait set, and why they introduced a new legacy to improve it, is for main healing. Which is why I suggested replacing it with a trait that makes our shield bother's attacks heal us for a percentage of their damage.

    In LtC and having the banner of war equipped, I figure that I'm healed for about 2.25k moral per minute by Revealing Mark. If I use an archer I loose about 450 moral per minute in self healing because I'm loosing the banner's 20% personal DPS advantage. With Precise Ally and Loyalty my archer does about 65 DPS, so if I could trait 10% of her damage to be returned to me as healing that would be about 390 moral per minute. That balances well and is not overpowered. It's a lot less than the 1.1k per minute I currently get from SfW and less than the roughly 1K moral per minute I get from my normal In-Combat Moral Regen. When using a herald, Lend Will only returns about 400 moral per minute, when it works, but the herald does a lot less damage than the archer so it would be returning less moral through damage and the fights would last longer.

    Now, If I used that in a group and I had shield Brother on a champ, Hunter, or RK I'd get quite a bit more healing. That may be overpowered for groups where I'm not the primary healer. But, when I'm solo healing I find that my biggest challenge is in keeping myself alive. Many times I've got everyone else healed up but I'm dying. I've burnt my man heal, my pots are on cooldown, and I'm spamming SfW and Valiant strike every chance I get. If I'm main healing I'm also not DPS'ing at maximum speed in order to conserve power for healing, so I'm also loosing healing from Revealing Mark. Cases like this are when Captains need self healing.

    Those gloves you mention are way over powered for solo play. I could see cases where you are getting hit several times per second, restoring thousands of moral per minute. I may have to find a pair . However, I think they'd be next to useless for a healing captain. They may let me last a touch longer when things go sour, but they won't help me heal up if the group gets things under control again. In boss fights the hits tend to be slow paced big hits, not rapid fire small ones, so the gloves would not help at all if I got the boss's aggro.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    Yeah, but what's a leader without a lackey? Aragorn didn't carry his own standard on the battlefield, Halbarad did. Halbarad is also one of the listed casualties of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Coincidence? I think not.

    I have a clever new idea. Let's do away with Armaments, (Okay, so we'll lose herald appearance customization. Work with me here. We can solve that one later) and have the captain have a banner equipped at all times. He can summon a herald who will carry the banner, but if the herald dies, he can plant the banner at any time, or just skip the whole 'herald' thing entirely and use banners exactly as he does now.

    This takes the imbalance of stats out of the equation. The captain can provide the buff himself, or the herald can provide it, without needing to swap stuff around. This makes the herald the "bonus" and the banner the "baseline", vs the way it is right now, where the captain with -neither- is the "baseline" and both herald and banner are imbalanced bonuses on top of that.

    So, would that mean I would get my 20% DPS/10% moral, 10% DPS/20% moral, or 10% DPS/10% moral/10% power buff regardless of using a herald? If that were so, I'd guess that the banner self buffs would become part of the trait line set bonuses or capstone traits and that the banners or heralds would just provide the group aura buffs. I don't like this for one reason. In this scenario heralds would be just a little icing on top. We would have our full capabilities with our without the heralds, therefore it would be OK for them to have no substance. Heralds would never get a revamp. I desperately want adjustments to the heralds to make them a more vibrant and relevant part of this class. I've been lobbying in these forums since launch for herald changes. It's not so much that I want to play a pet class. If I wanted to play a real pet class I would have stuck with the LM I rolled in the open beta. It just really bugs me that we have three pets that bring almost nothing to the class.
    Last edited by SGWB; Mar 11 2010 at 04:56 PM.
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  12. #112
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whimper View Post
    Point taken, the LM pets do not provide the big group buffs that the heralds do. However, some of the LM pets do some serious damage (and the raven even provides a group buff). It is not uncommon for a lynx to kick out 1900 damage (and that's without the pet buffing deed). Compared to that the archer's dps is simply laughable. What makes the archer even worse it his/her extremely low morale. Even low-level aoe effects will down them quickly. Similarly, the herald could do with some extra morale or armour. As has been suggested, give us higher level armaments.
    Here's my take on the LM/Captain pets situation.

    The thing that really separates our pets from the LM is the versatility. The fact that LM's were conceived from the start to be a pet class, where as captains were not, means that each pet brings something special to the party. The Bear is a solid tank. The lynx has an AOE attack. The Sabertooth does more single-target damage. (I might have those 2 mixed up.) The Raven provides a 15% shadow resistance for the group and I believe it does more of these flanking maneuvers for the LM that I'm not quite clear on the purpose. The Bog-Lurker is fairly effective for starting fellowship maneuvers. The Eagle rezes the LM, provides a group In-Combat Power Regen, and can interrupt mob inductions.

    On the captain side, all pets effectively nerf our personal DPS, moral, self healing, and sometimes power pool (if you would otherwise run with the power banner). In exchange, the Heralds can fulfill an off tank roll and provide meager DPS, a weak heal for the captain (by sacrificing it's power and moral), and make the banner buff mobile. The Archer further sacrifices the Captain's aura buff all together and does not heal the Captain at all. However, the Archer does provide somewhat more DPS than the captain could do alone, and it has the interesting benefit of providing ranged DPS. In a fight with lots of AoE, a captain can plant the Archer out of the combat area and have it range the mobs, hopefully staying out of the AoE attacks.

    The banner being too good is not the real problem, in my estimation. The problem is that When the Heralds were introduced, Captains were nerfed for moral, DPS, and self healing (Words of Courage could be used to self heal at one time), and the Captains aura was moved to the heralds. The Herald should have been made good enough to make up for the personal nerf. Unfortunately, they were not. They were a good off-tank for solo play, but they were mostly a liability in group content. In response to people complaining so loudly about the heralds, they introduced the banners to restore our moral and DPS to where they were pre-herald and to provide an unkillable aura buff. They could have also fixed the heralds to be relevant, but instead they basically forgot about them. With Moria and subsequent changes, the Herald has just become more and more obsolete. As a case in point, people mention using a herald to handle 2-3 mob pulls safely, while in Hands of Healing, I feel comfortable pulling 3-5 mobs safely, depending on the mobs. The only Captain pet that was well conceived, in my opinion, was the archer which debuted with Moria and does bring some unique options to the class.
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  13. #113
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    I've been trying to figure out what would be decent stats for armaments (not +power/morale/damage), because the armaments need to feel like we're not gimping ourselves by equipping them.

    What if higher level armaments gave us something like a personal super shield bro buff (+100 ICMR +100ICPR) in addition to everything else the herald does. Or would that be considered OP for armaments?

    I'm trying for something that's just as good as the banner item buffs, but completely different.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  14. #114
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Just found this thread. Holy cow have we needed this for a loooonng time. I'm new to lotro and the captain is my first char. What I was very surprised at was the lack of choice in the captain builds. Supposedly we have 3 options to trait for....rubbish. We have 2 viable options in Hands of Healing and Lead the Charge and one very confused and jumbled build in Leader of Men. Even then, if you don't want to solo you're basically stuck with Hands of Healing otherwise you're quickly labeled as a noob captain. Lame. I love the captain class, I just hate how your build (Halberd and Hands of Healing) are chosen for you unless you like to suck. (Currently I suck as I am in denial that this is the best way to build a captain).

    Suggestions for improvement:
    1.Composure - Who knows, just do something to it....anything
    2.Add more group buffs only available in Leader of Men
    3.Add drastic cooldown reduction with the rez trait
    4.Increase the Oathbreaker Archer's fighting ability...somehow...anyhow!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/132130100000577d8/signature.png]Gogogog[/charsig]

  15. #115

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aelythia View Post
    Just found this thread. Holy cow have we needed this for a loooonng time. I'm new to lotro and the captain is my first char. What I was very surprised at was the lack of choice in the captain builds. Supposedly we have 3 options to trait for....rubbish. We have 2 viable options in Hands of Healing and Lead the Charge and one very confused and jumbled build in Leader of Men. Even then, if you don't want to solo you're basically stuck with Hands of Healing otherwise you're quickly labeled as a noob captain. Lame. I love the captain class, I just hate how your build (Halberd and Hands of Healing) are chosen for you unless you like to suck. (Currently I suck as I am in denial that this is the best way to build a captain).

    Suggestions for improvement:
    1.Composure - Who knows, just do something to it....anything
    2.Add more group buffs only available in Leader of Men
    3.Add drastic cooldown reduction with the rez trait
    4.Increase the Oathbreaker Archer's fighting ability...somehow...anyhow!
    Three things: Composure is actually a strong trait, especially with the ToN CD legacy. I'm already able to have Escape from Darkness on a 150s cooldown, lower it anymore and it is beyond overpowered. And a dev already stated that the LoM capstone is being looked at.

  16. #116
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100 View Post
    Three things: Composure is actually a strong trait, especially with the ToN CD legacy. I'm already able to have Escape from Darkness on a 150s cooldown, lower it anymore and it is beyond overpowered.
    Thanks for the correction. I'm not interested in playing an o/p class so scrap that I idea, but since I am relatively new would you mind to explain what the ToN CD legacy is and how you're able to get the Escape from Darkness cooldown to 150s?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/132130100000577d8/signature.png]Gogogog[/charsig]

  17. #117

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aelythia View Post
    Thanks for the correction. I'm not interested in playing an o/p class so scrap that I idea, but since I am relatively new would you mind to explain what the ToN CD legacy is and how you're able to get the Escape from Darkness cooldown to 150s?
    ToN= Time of Need. With composure, ToN resets the reactive res, Cry of Vengeance. As for the res cooldown, you get -10m from the legendary trait, the legacy will give you an additional -10m. How do I get rid of the other 7.5m? Well that would be a good question now wouldn't it (here's a hint, its been capable since lvl 60, but I only recently figured out how)

  18. #118

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Apart from the capstone trait that seems a bit weak, there are two traits that stick out to me as needing some love.

    Tactical Prowess- This trait has been completely duplicated by and is inferior to the To Arms duration weapon legacy. The trait adds only +5 seconds while the legacy which is inexpensive to raise at higher tiers goes up to +15 seconds on my weapon. Maybe change the effect of this trait instead of just duplicating the legacy?

    Blood of Numenor- This is the weakest and most narrow trait in the set. It is the only trait in the line that has no effect on a soloing Captain at all. It slightly improves one skill that can't even be used until a player is defeated. The deed is advanced using both Captain res skills, so how about having the bonus effect both Captain res skills? One other thing it could do is improve the 4 second induction timer of Escape from Darkness.

  19. #119
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse32100 View Post
    As for the res cooldown, you get -10m from the legendary trait, the legacy will give you an additional -10m. How do I get rid of the other 7.5m? Well that would be a good question now wouldn't it (here's a hint, its been capable since lvl 60, but I only recently figured out how)
    If its the way I'm thinking of then its been available since lvl 58. However, good luck getting to glory rank 6 and farming the delving when the creeps hold the keeps ~60% of the time. All that for armor that isn't as good as the moria rad gear, but able to do the quick rez...darn trade offs! Unless you want the better set of gear that requires more delving action and glory rank 9. I've said too much.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/132130100000577d8/signature.png]Gogogog[/charsig]

  20. Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    Yeah, but what's a leader without a lackey? Aragorn didn't carry his own standard on the battlefield, Halbarad did. Halbarad is also one of the listed casualties of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Coincidence? I think not.
    This line is pure "win."

  21. #121
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    I haven't read the thread because of time issues on my schedule, so please forgive any inaccuracy here.

    I feel the biggest problem with LoM is the herald, as I've seen many posts say. His appearance, his reputation, even his skills are garbage under most circumstances. He's looked down on because, let's face it, he looks like a homeless person, a fat friar, or an "okay"-looking soldier. Nothing impressive at all. Sure, that's not gameplay mechanics, but it does affect you. How many people use the Eagle just because it looks cool? I know I do; it thankfully is effective enough to not be garbage, though. How many use the lynx because its sneak attacks and growls are cool to watch/hear? If I were to offer a solution, it'd be the following:

    • Scrap heralds completely. They were created with the assumption that the Captain needed a banner-carrier on the battlefield. Banners solve that problem today, and not using a banner is the dumbest and weakest thing in the world, even if you use herald instead. Instead, change the herald to a Skirmish-like Soldier. Make it about DPS. Call it a Squire instead or something, and have a melee version, a ranged version, and maybe even a tactical version, to replace the 'Herald of Hope/Victory/War', since Banners now fill that role. Captains have no DPS anymore anyway in Mirkwood.
    • Allow "Squires" or whatever to be present while banners are active. Seperating them would be silly anymore under the precident that the pet is no longer the banner-wielder.
    • Take out any and all pet traits, except for maybe one that is a 'catch-all' trait for buffing your pet all around (more morale, more damage, more defense, all that goodness). Make the Squire's skills do considerably more damage when working in tandem with the Captain, especially when traited Lead the Charge. Again, Captains can't output good DPS anymore. Let them do it via their DPS pet. Logically, retain key traits for the Capt like higher chance to crit on dev/pressing and faster battle shouting, but in general, let the pet be the meat. You can even do things like give the pet a skill that does more damage when the mob is under the effect of Blade of Elendil's DoT, or when under the effect of Marks. Make the pet work WITH the Captain, but not so much that the Captain's useless if he dies.
    • Change Leader of Men to be a purely fellowship-buffing traitline. Like stated above, let Lead the Charge focus on the pet AND the Captain, rather than just the Captain. Let the Captain do the threat and the pet do the DPS. Like, when in positional, let the pet do more damage on a skill or a chance for an effect (similar to Coordinated Tactics that currently exists). The idea is to make petplay dynamic enough, whether tanking or not, that the Captain WANTS the pet around (and thankfully, since it'd be a DPS pet, it'd take little micro management to retain its effectiveness). Right now they don't, because no one respects a homeless dude in rags carrying a flag that you can just stick on a pole yourself and get more out of it.


    tl;dr summary version: Change Herald into Squire. Make Squire all about DPS. Make Leader of Men all about fellowship buffing and remove all pet buffs. Make Lead the Charge about Captain threat and pet buffing. Leave Hands of Healing alone. Make Banner and Squire out at the same time.

    Again, the main focus here is to ensure that the pet is wanted, and DPS is something the Captain sorely lacks in. You even add a ranged DPS component for when ranged is necessary by change war to Melee, Hope to Ranged and Victory to Tact, or something else entirely. Additionally, this also serves to letting the Capt help out a little bit everywhere, like he's used to doing. And in present-day endgame, more DPS is never, ever a bad thing. More importantly, it lets the Captain do something else while busy elsewhere, which is what the Captain's great at.

    Some may retain they want to keep their DPS from Lead the Charge, but really, they only care because of beeg numbarz, and half of LtC's focus is about threat anyway, which nobody takes LtC for anymore. So who cares? Let the class unfold like it should. Let the Capt tank and introduce pets as DPS-only for Captains. This aids in the lore aspect as well, because no longer does the Captain have a silly little fat monk who does nothing but hold a stick while wearing a robe against beasts like the Watcher, Thaurlach and the Mistress of Pestilence like some old fool, but instead the Captain has an ally, a soldier dedicated to lending his sword-arm to his mentor, his master. It's his duty to stay and fight, and he actually prepares for it by looking good out there with gear fit for war, not gear fit for long walks on the beach. Isn't that what the Captain is all about?

    I've no solutions about LoM or LtC capstones, as I'm sure devs are smarter than me. I mostly just wanted to establish that the theme of the heralds and the direction of the LoM traitline needs adjustment.

    Just my two cents on the subject. Heralds are simply generally rejected for more reasons than the banner being superior, by far. They're a dead aspect anymore, and no one likes them. The real question is, will Turbine invest enough resources and time to make any significant changes to the herald/Leader of Men - not necessarily mine, but ANY changes - or will they simply exist forever and rot away? Unfortunately, based on past experience, I'd bet on the latter, but it's no secret that this is a very lacking spot in a very important class in the game, and it really could use some serious attention and overhauling.
    Last edited by Feybobiam; Apr 06 2010 at 03:44 PM.
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  22. #122
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feybobiam View Post
    [pure logic]
    /signed

    I'd LOVE for the herald to be a useful, solid aspect of the captain again, not just for the sake of rounding out the class, but for appearance/roleplay's sake as well!
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  23. #123
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    QFT

    I hated Standards when they came out, I felt it was a cop out move for a pet class. I still hate standards >.> lol. But for certain fights they give no dps whatsoever, in fact the blind one and the mistress both 100% immune to common dmg altogether lol.
    Yes "certain fights" I suppose, but they are rare. A lot of boss fights banner is probably way to go as there is a lot of AOE damage and the herald will be a added burden if he starts taking damage. But these are rare occurences, and the majority of most instances, at least the ones I have been in, the herald acts just fine as a mobile banner, giving the group the same buffs without the hassle of planting flags every few steps. There is a lot more to instances afterall than just the boss fights.

    I also feel the archer is underestimated as well, and there are times, even in fellowships, that the added DPS it brings can out-weigh the benefits of the herald/banner buff. Captains who exclusively use banners and nothing else are missing out.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 07 2010 at 05:38 AM.

  24. #124
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    Although this certainly isn't your fault, what you're telling us is that the bad coding that allowed people to exploit the Turtle with their heralds still exists and can be taken advantage of for bosses 1, 2, and 4 in SG?



    It takes one second to replant your banner.

    The only instance in the game where you're really moving all that quickly is the Gauntlet in BG, and even then it's move -> fight for a couple minutes -> move. (And Skumfil HM, I suppose, but most of the time I feel that it's safe to assume that such discussions are focusing on level-cap content).

    As a Captain, one of your many contributions to the group is being a damage sponge when times get rough. If you have your Banner of Hope equipped and thus are at 8k or 9k+ morale you're more likely to be able to use In Harm's Way without having to burn Last Stand as well. Obviously, you're less likely to be able to do this when you're sitting somewhere in the 5ks or 6ks because you have a herald out instead.

    However, this is all personal choice, I suppose. I choose to make my Captain optimal, others can choose otherwise. If I've learned anything from the LOTRO forums, it's that just about anything is a valid playstyle.
    You don't have to be moving quickly, the range of banners is not very forgiving and you don't have to move far before you have to plant it down again. It's annoying, and I rather spend that time marking my target and setting up hots instead of having to plant a flag every few feet. I'm glad it doesn't bother you, but it does me.

    I rarely use banners except on boss fights where AOE damage is an issue, or I feel I need the extra HP as you pointed out. But on this same vein, i'd just like to point out that the herald of hope makes a nice damage sponge in itself, and perhaps adding a talent that lets you use In Harms Way on your herald would go a long way to making Leader of Men trait line more effective. So there is an idea.

    I also take issue with your implication that choosing to use banners makes your captain "optimal". A captain skilled at using either his herald or archer will be able to do things a captain with a banner equipped could never do. Banners do have their place, but they are no where near the "optimal" choice for captains. Different situations merit different choices, and banners are not the optimal choice for a great many of them.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 07 2010 at 06:05 AM.

  25. #125
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    You don't have to be moving quickly, the range of banners is not very forgiving and you don't have to move far before you have to plant it down again. It's annoying, and I rather spend that time marking my target and setting up hots instead of having to plant a flag every few feet. I'm glad it doesn't bother you, but it does me.

    I rarely use banners except on boss fights where AOE damage is an issue, or I feel I need the extra HP as you pointed out. But on this same vein, i'd just like to point out that the herald of hope makes a nice damage sponge in itself, and perhaps adding a talent that lets you use In Harms Way on your herald would go a long way to making Leader of Men trait line more effective. So there is an idea.

    I also take issue with your implication that choosing to use banners makes your captain "optimal". A captain skilled at using either his herald or archer will be able to do things a captain with a banner equipped could never do. Banners do have their place, but they are no where near the "optimal" choice for captains. Different situations merit different choices, and banners are not the optimal choice for a great many of them.
    In all seriousness, I would love to hear about these things that herald- or archer-using Captains can do that banner-using Captains can't. I'll even start:

    1) My herald can be used as an aggro sacrifice to a bunch of mobs so that I can grab a quest item and run away without having to fight my way to it. My banner cannot.

    2) ...?

    (Edit: Oh, and I'm also interested in hearing about the "great many" situations in which a banner is not the optimal choice.)

 

 
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