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  1. #76
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    Heralds simply don't have enough value for the equation to be balanced with Strength from Within ONLY on the Banner side of things.
    This is why I have been saying that the herald needs a buff, and to NOT screw with Strength from Within.

    What are you trying to say mpureka? That we need to nerf the banner so that the herald can be comparable?

    On the contrary, we need to BUFF the herald and the armaments, so that:

    armament + herald = banner + banner item + SfW

    This way, SfW is left alone - which would prevent nerfing the banner without really addressing the real issue, the herald needs to be stronger across all trait configurations.

    I'll say it one more time to make it clear:
    The herald needs to be stronger across all trait configurations.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  2. #77
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    What I'm "trying to say" is that removing the arbitrary "no pets" requirement from SfW is a quick and easy way to help with this problem without needing to completely rebuild our pets from the ground up. Why are you being so antagonistic? Did I not say multiple times in this thread that I am in favor of improving the herald? Or did you not read my original post? Is improving the herald somehow mutually exclusive with removing the restriction on SfW? Why are you so opposed to making a simple adjustment to a trait? Removing the restriction makes the balancing process simpler, so there is less work to be done, and that after all the buffing of the herald you propose, that banners don't come out looking like the "Oh, you have to trait SfW for them to be competitive" option.

    Look at your own math. If:

    Herald + Armaments ~ Banner + Banner Item + SfW

    Then you are forced to commit to a trait for banners to be the equal of a herald. And while that's an interesting reversal of fortune, it hardly strikes me as balanced. Why are you accusing me of trying to get banners nerfed? Seriously.

    I'm kindof amused though, that the quote you decided to choose that raised your ire was just me describing the current status quo.

  3. #78
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    What I'm "trying to say" is that removing the arbitrary "no pets" requirement from SfW is a quick and easy way to help with this problem without needing to completely rebuild our pets from the ground up. Why are you being so antagonistic? Did I not say multiple times in this thread that I am in favor of improving the herald? Or did you not read my original post? Is improving the herald somehow mutually exclusive with removing the restriction on SfW? Why are you so opposed to making a simple adjustment to a trait? Removing the restriction makes the balancing process simpler, so there is less work to be done, and that after all the buffing of the herald you propose, that banners don't come out looking like the "Oh, you have to trait SfW for them to be competitive" option.

    Look at your own math. If:

    Herald + Armaments ~ Banner + Banner Item + SfW

    Then you are forced to commit to a trait for banners to be the equal of a herald. And while that's an interesting reversal of fortune, it hardly strikes me as balanced. Why are you accusing me of trying to get banners nerfed? Seriously.

    I'm kindof amused though, that the quote you decided to choose that raised your ire was just me describing the current status quo.
    Cause quite honestly, the status quo sucks, and I really don't want to maintain it by supporting an idea that would do exactly that. And honestly, why support a change that gives people even more reason to spec HoH instead of LoM? Isn't that going against what this thread is trying to accomplish?

    Because of the increase in stats from the banners, SfW, and the general unkillable nature of the banner, there is enough clout for us to argue that our herald should be buffed and our armaments need to have stats on them.

    By removing SfW from the equation, the power gap between banners and heralds narrows, not because the heralds were buffed, but because a banner only trait is now longer part of the (relative) picture.

    Yeah, the suggested change to SfW is quick and easy, but in the long run, it's going to hurt us more as captains, because it's easier to justify the herald's sorry state of existence.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  4. #79
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Cause quite honestly, the status quo sucks, and I really don't want to maintain it by supporting an idea that would do exactly that. And honestly, why support a change that gives people even more reason to spec HoH instead of LoM? Isn't that going against what this thread is trying to accomplish?
    It would be against what this thread was trying to accomplish if I were trying to get people to trait 7 yellow. I'm not, so it doesn't really enter into it.

    Because of the increase in stats from the banners, SfW, and the general unkillable nature of the banner, there is enough clout for us to argue that our herald should be buffed and our armaments need to have stats on them.

    By removing SfW from the equation, the power gap between banners and heralds narrows, not because the heralds were buffed, but because a banner only trait is now longer part of the (relative) picture.
    Yes. But as long as the gap gets closed, I don't care. And frankly, I think we have a better chance of getting an easy change that narrows the gap than we do a massive overhaul to close it.

    Yeah, the suggested change to SfW is quick and easy, but in the long run, it's going to hurt us more as captains, because it's easier to justify the herald's sorry state of existence.
    I don't really see why. If anything, it'll get people to use the herald a bit so they can understand the shortcomings, instead of just going "Yeah, herald, whatever, who cares, use a banner." If something is a completely irrelevant choice, as herald's very nearly are, it's far less likely to get any fixing than something that seems 'just a bit' out of balance.
    Last edited by mpureka; Mar 03 2010 at 11:37 PM.

  5. #80
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    *completely stupid idea that i think would be great*

    Get rid of heralds, replace them with the ability (for the captain only) to summon our skirmish soldier into battle outside of skirmishes, with an appropriate group buff. (Even if this was the LoM legendary...)

    OP as hell, but awesome!

    ./2centsandderail
    [URL="http://catalyst.guildlaunch.com"][/URL][SIZE=1] [/SIZE][SIZE=1]Votan | Xeyila | Grisburnakh
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  6. #81

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocatequil View Post
    *completely stupid idea that i think would be great*

    Get rid of heralds, replace them with the ability (for the captain only) to summon our skirmish soldier into battle outside of skirmishes, with an appropriate group buff. (Even if this was the LoM legendary...)

    OP as hell, but awesome!

    ./2centsandderail
    *laughs* Yeah, I mentioned that in another thread a couple weeks back. Well, the LoM legendary being the ability ot use a soldier in other instances instead of a regular herald. It would be pretty sick
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000004152b/01008/signature.png]Vormaerin[/charsig]

  7. #82
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    It would be against what this thread was trying to accomplish if I were trying to get people to trait 7 yellow. I'm not, so it doesn't really enter into it.
    Yeah, but it would be nice if this thread could provide justification, and some way to make a 5 yellow traiting raid-worthy. Hands of Healing is our strongest line, let's not make it stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    Yes. But as long as the gap gets closed, I don't care. And frankly, I think we have a better chance of getting an easy change that narrows the gap than we do a massive overhaul to close it.
    Well, to be honest, the heralds need a massive overhaul to be made relevant again, anyway. That's one of the primary reason why I can not pull my herald out of retirement for some of the newer group content - it's just too much of a liability if I'm not spec'ed yellow - and even then, I still feel gimped. The Leader of Men line needs an overhaul, end of story.

    A larger part of this issue is no high level armaments (last was at 40 that most captains can use). Closing that power gap should be done by buffing up the armament and the herald, rather than taking something away from the banner - which makes seeing a stronger herald a better possibility.

    Also, Lend Will should be buffed so it is basically a really good pot that doesn't seriously hurt the herald when used. Right now, I can get two of these off when I'm playing the herald before she's toast in extended combat - normally, I can't get this skill off because when I need it, my herald is out of power.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    I don't really see why. If anything, it'll get people to use the herald a bit so they can understand the shortcomings, instead of just going "Yeah, herald, whatever, who cares, use a banner." If something is a completely irrelevant choice, as herald's very nearly are, it's far less likely to get any fixing than something that seems 'just a bit' out of balance.
    Right.... and that's still not addressing the issue as to why the heralds suck to begin with.....

    Everyone already knows that they need help to begin with... Making a class trait from a good one to the best one we have is not a good way to solve this issue.

    HoH does not need another buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocatequil View Post
    *completely stupid idea that i think would be great*

    Get rid of heralds, replace them with the ability (for the captain only) to summon our skirmish soldier into battle outside of skirmishes, with an appropriate group buff. (Even if this was the LoM legendary...)

    OP as hell, but awesome!

    ./2centsandderail
    I like this idea... what if there could be some way to use skirmish traits for the herald?
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Mar 04 2010 at 04:41 AM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  8. #83
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Maybe completely revamp the capstone, something like increasing the number of people we can shield brother to 2-3 people. Maybe adding +10 to all the stats from IDoME. Honestly a buffing line in which the capstone legendary allows us to summon a squishy pet with pathing issues and nothing more only makes an already weak trait line only seem less desirable.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/01203010000025086/signature.png]Haji[/charsig]
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  9. #84
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Yeah, but it would be nice if this thread could provide justification, and some way to make a 5 yellow traiting raid-worthy. Hands of Healing is our strongest line, let's not make it stronger.
    But this doesn't make HoH stronger. The ability to use a herald with SfW, as heralds currently stand, is only a boon for people who want to use heralds. People who want to do a strong HoH build will do exactly what they are doing now.

    Well, to be honest, the heralds need a massive overhaul to be made relevant again, anyway.
    I don't really think this is true. A DPS boost, a new ability or two, and you have a perfectly viable herald. Would it be everything you could dream of and more? No. Would each different herald have a completely different role? No. But it could certainly be relevant without that.

    That's one of the primary reason why I can not pull my herald out of retirement for some of the newer group content - it's just too much of a liability if I'm not spec'ed yellow - and even then, I still feel gimped. The Leader of Men line needs an overhaul, end of story.
    Two related but non-synonymous issues here.

    A larger part of this issue is no high level armaments (last was at 40 that most captains can use).
    Again, I disagree. We don't really know how armaments work. If the level 40 armament is giving a % modifier to the herald, then it's just as good now as it was at level 40. We just don't know.

    Is improving the armament in some way a viable path to fixing the herald? Maybe. Is the lack of armament upgrades necessarily part of the problem? No.

    Closing that power gap should be done by buffing up the armament and the herald, rather than taking something away from the banner - which makes seeing a stronger herald a better possibility.
    Again, the Armament doesn't need, necessarily, to be part of the equation. You are fond of these very broad pronouncements which, while generally correct, tend to sweep up a lot of stuff that's not necessarily accurate. Yes, it's better to improve the herald than to "take something away" from the banner, but nowhere in this discussion has anyone proposed doing such a thing, so stop arguing against it.

    Saying: "Strength from Within should be reversed, so you can only use it with a herald, not a banner" is "taking something away" from the banner. Suggesting that it be usable with either is not, and if you say otherwise, I'm afraid you are objectively incorrect.

    Also, Lend Will should be buffed so it is basically a really good pot that doesn't seriously hurt the herald when used.
    I can agree with this; An improvement to lend will would be a good step.

    Right now, I can get two of these off when I'm playing the herald before she's toast in extended combat - normally, I can't get this skill off because when I need it, my herald is out of power.
    Well, turn off Intimidating Tactics. Your herald is physically incapable of running out of power by using only Coordinated Attack and Lend Will. Unless something else is drawing his power, running with only Coordinated Attack on "auto-use" will ensure your herald always has enough power to Lend Will. Also...your combats usually last more than 90 seconds? o.O

    HoH does not need another buff.
    Again, you are willfully misconstruing - no buffs to HoH have been provided, only making it more compatible with being part of other builds. This is good for the other builds, not for HoH.

  10. #85
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    But this doesn't make HoH stronger. The ability to use a herald with SfW, as heralds currently stand, is only a boon for people who want to use heralds. People who want to do a strong HoH build will do exactly what they are doing now.
    To me, it does. I have Strong Voice and Now For Wrath perma-slotted, because they are worth it. The change you suggest for Strength from Within brings the trait from good trait with a very annoying side-effect, to a trait the level of our good legendaries. We get a self heal with no drawbacks - you would be stupid NOT to have that trait slotted at all times. The only 2 traits that the same could be said about the captain class are Oathbreaker's Shame and In Defense of Middle Earth.

    Using that logic, yes, that suggestion is a buff to HoH, because there are 3 good traits that you should probably have slotted regardless of your spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    I don't really think this is true. A DPS boost, a new ability or two, and you have a perfectly viable herald. Would it be everything you could dream of and more? No. Would each different herald have a completely different role? No. But it could certainly be relevant without that.
    I'd beg to differ... one of the advantages of using a herald while soloing is it's ability to OT, which enables you to safely pull 2-3 mobs at a time.

    From my experiences, the herald cannot reliably OT in a group setting. I honestly could care less about the damage, I just want the herald to OT and not red-shirt 10 seconds into the fight, which sets a mob loose and the captain needs to drop a banner.

    If all I'm going to be doing in an endgame instance with the herald in an instance is Passive/Assist, I might as well go with a banner, so I can get the damage and morale boost, and make the healer's life a little easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    Again, I disagree. We don't really know how armaments work. If the level 40 armament is giving a % modifier to the herald, then it's just as good now as it was at level 40. We just don't know.

    Is improving the armament in some way a viable path to fixing the herald? Maybe. Is the lack of armament upgrades necessarily part of the problem? No.
    My main gripe with the herald is not so much DPS (I could care less about that to be honest) but survivability. Giving the herald stronger armor by giving us better armaments, would help fix that issue. I do know that better armaments gives the herald better survivability.

    If Turbine were to put some sort of stat increase on the armaments, so it's not so much a "dead" item to us, that would make using a herald a little more attractive. Banners are guaranteed to give us at least +10% damage and +10% morale. Armaments do not currently do this - but they should give us a different, yet equivalent, buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    Again, the Armament doesn't need, necessarily, to be part of the equation. You are fond of these very broad pronouncements which, while generally correct, tend to sweep up a lot of stuff that's not necessarily accurate. Yes, it's better to improve the herald than to "take something away" from the banner, but nowhere in this discussion has anyone proposed doing such a thing, so stop arguing against it.

    Saying: "Strength from Within should be reversed, so you can only use it with a herald, not a banner" is "taking something away" from the banner. Suggesting that it be usable with either is not, and if you say otherwise, I'm afraid you are objectively incorrect.
    Let's look at how each affects me directly as a captain: the banner buffs my morale and increases my damage. The armament does not. I'm going to slot one of these two if I'm using a herald or a banner. Trying to remove the armament from the equation is a gross misunderswtanding of how a captain is geared with either a banner or herald out.

    That said, currently the banner has Strength from Within self heal. If we look at this relationship:

    banner + banner item + SfW = herald + armament

    If we do as what you suggest:

    banner + banner item + SfW = herald + armament + SfW

    Simplified:

    banner + banner item = herald + armament

    Thus, by removing SfW from the banner vs. herald debate, you have taken something away from the banner. This is the very definition of a nerf.


    What follows is a Deconstruction and reassembly of the relationship between banner and herald, and how they should be balanced. Assume that the banner is the tier 6 critted banner, and the herald has the effects of the l40 critted armaments or armaments of the oathbound, whichever provides the better buff.

    Looking at the banner/herald by themselves:
    banner ~= herald

    The herald can be used to OT, whereas the banner cannot. Yet the herald can die, and the banner cannot. The herald does provide self healing with lend will, which is something the banner itself cannot do, and it's the self healing that tips the scale towards the herald. However, since the herald is in serious need of help, with both damage, mitigations, and morale, the comparison moves back towards the middle.

    This should be:
    banner < herald

    And this should be balanced by:
    banner + SfW = herald

    Since:
    SfW > herald's Lend Will

    This shifts the balance towards the banner, when:

    SfW = herald's lend will

    Should be true. This is why I have been advocating against removing the restriction for SfW, because that would shift the balance towards the herald, and neither should be the clearly better option.

    Ignoring the banner and herald for a moment, currently:

    banner item > armament

    However, this should be:

    banner item = armament

    This is why I have been advocating for stats on the armaments because:

    banner + banner item + SfW > armament + herald

    Is so one-sided towards the banner it's not even funny.

    Ideally, it should be:
    banner + banner item + SfW = armament + herald

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    Well, turn off Intimidating Tactics. Your herald is physically incapable of running out of power by using only Coordinated Attack and Lend Will. Unless something else is drawing his power, running with only Coordinated Attack on "auto-use" will ensure your herald always has enough power to Lend Will. Also...your combats usually last more than 90 seconds? o.O
    I'll look at the herald skills again and re-evaluate how I'm using them. I haven't done in at least 20 levels, if not longer, which would put that sometime around book 1.12 or so.

    When I need Lend Will, it's usually following a mis-pull while I'm soloing, and I'm surrrounded by too many mobs, fighting to survive. I'm also going to use a pot, LS, and/or man heal in the same fight. In those situations, the fight usually lasts over 90s, and sometimes I can pull it out. I can get off the first lend will pretty reliably, the second is hit or miss, and by the time the third comes around (if I even got a second), the herald is OOP. Other than situations like what I just described, I don't use Lend Will, becasue I don't need it.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Mar 05 2010 at 07:01 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  11. #86
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    On the SFW argument i think the trait should be removed from the game =) that is just me of course. I already provided justification for my statement a couple days back, but since this thread has turned into yet again another Heated discussion of HOH traits i feel its necessary for me to say before i reply with my suggestion.


    Now here is my suggestion to bring a bit of allure back to the Heralds.

    Step 1 Differentiating the Heralds more to provide reason for useing them.

    #1 Herald of war - This guy needs a dps boost for useing the war banner and more dps orientated Skills. Make him a herald of war not a herald of horrible common dmg, so he can actually help you instead of being a third leg. ( For the love of god fix the trait so the war banner actually gets an upgrade.)

    #2 Herald of Power - This guy also needs a dps boost but less then the herald of war. Give this guy some new attacks that are power based. For instance this herald could get an attack that has a 20% chance to restore 150 power to the captain while Blade of elendil is up on the target. Also the power cost of the skills could be reduced by 10% for this herald only.

    #3 Herald of Morale - This guy would get an identical dps increase in line with the Herald of power. This heralds attacks would be simpler, a reduced cool down for Lend will and less morale cost for lend will. Also most of us generally think of the Hope Herald as the off tank herald so lets also give him A little more threat on his infuriating tactics.


    Step 2 Give captains a reason to actually use the herald other then they die a lot and path into walls. We all know these are attractive quality's in a herald.

    #1 Let's face facts Banners went too far! My herald of war does not do 20% of my dps, neither does my herald of hope do 10% of my dps. Lend will vs SFW is a joke of a comparison now. Using the archer herald who has much better dps net's no self heal at all.

    Lend will is on a 1min 30 second CD timer
    The only advantage lend will has at current is that it is a direct heal and not a hot. We all know Hot's can fail in a lot of situations where a Straight heal doesn't.

    SFW is now on a 20 second CD timer
    This skill is OP now, I didn't like it before now with the CD reduction all turbine did was flog a dead herald.

    As it is right now, no one traits heralds for lend will and why should they it sucks. The cool down needs to be adjusted on lend will to make it comparable to SFW or SFW needs to be nerfed.

    #2 Give Heralds a applicable Debuff or buff of some type that would make them desired in a group setting.

    The debuff or buff could be anything lets go over a few idea's i have and i am open to suggestions as well.

    Coordinated attack has a 20% chance to start a fellowship maneuver With yellow capstone.

    Infuriating tactics could give the herald a temporary parry buff of 2%.

    With 5 Yellow Traited Lend will could be improved to pass back a slow healing Hot onto the herald allowing them to slowly recover from giving away there morale.

    Coordinated attack could give a small debuff to a monsters crit chance. A debuff that would have like a 15% chance to proc.

    Coordinated attack could reduce that monsters evade chance by 2% if a stun lands.

    #3 Common damage has become a liability in raids, and our heralds are swimming in it.

    We need to be able to buff our heralds damage types to Ancient dwarf or westernesse with yellow capstone slotted. This alone would provide some of the much needed dps increase to heralds who still disappoint me greatly. The archer herald is the only one that can actually solo a on par lvl monster within 2 minutes and without dieing. I can generally kill 10 monsters in the time it takes my herald to remove 1500 morale from a single target.
    Last edited by ydoc; Mar 08 2010 at 08:16 AM.

  12. #87
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    You know the herald needs help when the skills for the bannerman soldier are far more desireable.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  13. #88
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    You know the herald needs help when the skills for the bannerman soldier are far more desireable.
    I question the merit of this statement. Soldiers are designed to be closer to having another real player, not a pet. Herbalist Soldier has very good healing. Protector soldier tanks way better than the loremaster bear. Archer and Warrior Soldiers do tons more damage than the various 'damage pets' in the game.

    The fact that Bannerguard soldier has better abilities than our heralds should not be surprising at all.

  14. Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    A lot of this discussion is still centered on the heralds: I agree they need a buff, but I don't really see that as the solution to the Leader of Men trait line problem.

    For me the most interesting idea would be to remove the current capstone, which is largely cosmetic, and replace it with something that does what this trait line is supposed to do, namely buff one's fellowship. The best idea that I have seen so far is a percentage chance for any shield brother skill to affect the entire fellowship. With a lowish percentage chance (10 - 15% perhaps) this would still be a remarkable skill and tasty enough to consider going heavy LoM. The basic test of the trait lines should be "Does it force me to make hard choices between good options"? This would certainly make the LoM traitline a real alternative to HoH for fellowships and raids.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000033326e/01008/signature.png]doronor[/charsig]

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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by seyahat View Post
    A lot of this discussion is still centered on the heralds: I agree they need a buff, but I don't really see that as the solution to the Leader of Men trait line problem.
    I concur, as you can tell from looking at my original post.

    For me the most interesting idea would be to remove the current capstone, which is largely cosmetic, and replace it with something that does what this trait line is supposed to do, namely buff one's fellowship. The best idea that I have seen so far is a percentage chance for any shield brother skill to affect the entire fellowship. With a lowish percentage chance (10 - 15% perhaps) this would still be a remarkable skill and tasty enough to consider going heavy LoM. The basic test of the trait lines should be "Does it force me to make hard choices between good options"? This would certainly make the LoM traitline a real alternative to HoH for fellowships and raids.
    Precisely. Ideally, I'd want LoM to be the line that makes your fellowship do lots of damage. If HoH is for making the fellowship durable, LoM should be for making the fellowship deadly.

    Pets are a footnote - there are only two pet traits in the line - and while improving the pet helps leverage this line, pets are only a small part of the line and a huge Herald overhaul will do comparatively little for the viability of the trait line.

  16. Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    If HoH is for making the fellowship durable, LoM should be for making the fellowship deadly.
    This sentence is *win* and nicely sums up what LoM lacks and where it needs to go.
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  17. #92
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    If HoH is for making the fellowship durable, LoM should be for making the fellowship deadly.
    So how does LtC fit in with this?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  18. Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    So how does LtC fit in with this?
    Ideally, *personal* dps and off-tanking. As another thread relates, that is a trait line in need of love as well.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000033326e/01008/signature.png]doronor[/charsig]

  19. #94
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by seyahat View Post
    Ideally, *personal* dps and off-tanking. As another thread relates, that is a trait line in need of love as well.
    Personal DPS, offtanking, soloing, small fellowship work where you're not the healer - part of the idea of LoM in my mind is that it would become more powerful the more people you have in your fellowship, so in smaller groups, Lead the Charge should have more relative value.

    Lead the Charge should be a direct personal "force" addition.
    Leader of Men should be a force multiplier for your fellowship.

  20. #95
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Yea, you know captains already barely even use heralds. I know at least a couple of you sitting here arguing about this trait line have never even use a herald in a real raid. Even for me at current I still can't find use for my herald, because the game has already catered to the people who hate pets so much that useing a herald is an automatic gimping of your personal capabilities.

    So sure Lets just ignore heralds because they are a footnote in a trait line that was made for heralds. Lets make the yellow Trait line into a super duper buffing line with no focus on heralds at all so they can fade into memory then turbine can just take the herald summoning skills out of the game with a patch and no one will even notice.

    If you can't tell i am being extremely sarcastic =)

    It really piss's me off when people ignore that captain is a -----> Pet Class <----
    Why turbine ever decided to give cop out banners to everyone is beyond me.

  21. #96
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    To me, it does. I have Strong Voice and Now For Wrath perma-slotted, because they are worth it. The change you suggest for Strength from Within brings the trait from good trait with a very annoying side-effect, to a trait the level of our good legendaries. We get a self heal with no drawbacks - you would be stupid NOT to have that trait slotted at all times. The only 2 traits that the same could be said about the captain class are Oathbreaker's Shame and In Defense of Middle Earth.

    Using that logic, yes, that suggestion is a buff to HoH, because there are 3 good traits that you should probably have slotted regardless of your spec.
    There is a drawback to the SfW self heal. It costs power. It's one of our more power hungry skills. We also have to look at this in context. It's a self heal that can help us by about 1k moral per minute, possibly 1.5k per minute with a legacy. Compare that to Rallying Cry, which can heal me for 1K moral every 15 seconds, less with the Dar Narbug armor set, and return power every time I use it. In fact, the only time I find that Lend Will is really essential is when solo healing or when playing solo and there is only one mob to beat down. The only thing that makes SfW look so good is that Lend Will is so bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I'd beg to differ... one of the advantages of using a herald while soloing is it's ability to OT, which enables you to safely pull 2-3 mobs at a time.
    This hasn't been true since Shadows of Angmar. Back in the day, I used to handle 3-4 blue mob pulls by sending in the herald first to get aggro, I'd kill a mob, use war cry, kill a second, then use rallying cry, and mop up was left. I'd generally put revealing mark on the herald's target for the aggro-free healing because the herald aggro generation and DPS were so poor that he couldn't usually hold a mob against me direct healing him. The one really good thing about the herald, and I have no empirical data for this, is that I'd swear that it could mitigate damage better than I could.

    These days I can trait HoH, equip a war banner, and handle 3-5 white conned mobs, depending on the mob. Anything with bleeds tends to tear me up. SfW is part of that equation, obviously, but mostly that's because I'm hitting all 5 mobs with Pressing attack, giving me a better than not chance for rallying cry every 15 seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    From my experiences, the herald cannot reliably OT in a group setting. I honestly could care less about the damage, I just want the herald to OT and not red-shirt 10 seconds into the fight, which sets a mob loose and the captain needs to drop a banner.

    If all I'm going to be doing in an endgame instance with the herald in an instance is Passive/Assist, I might as well go with a banner, so I can get the damage and morale boost, and make the healer's life a little easier.



    My main gripe with the herald is not so much DPS (I could care less about that to be honest) but survivability. Giving the herald stronger armor by giving us better armaments, would help fix that issue. I do know that better armaments gives the herald better survivability.

    If Turbine were to put some sort of stat increase on the armaments, so it's not so much a "dead" item to us, that would make using a herald a little more attractive. Banners are guaranteed to give us at least +10% damage and +10% morale. Armaments do not currently do this - but they should give us a different, yet equivalent, buff.
    I think we all agree that Heralds need help, but we don't agree on the method. I don't think the Armament is the problem because even if the armament had some bonus, I still would not use a herald in raids. The only way the Armament would make me use a herald is if the the buff was better than what the banner provides, because the heralds don't bring any useful skills to 6 - 12 man groups. They can't even reliably hold aggro against healing threat. If the heralds were good for anything besides off-tanking, something absolutely not needed in 6 and 12 man content, I would consider it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Let's look at how each affects me directly as a captain: the banner buffs my morale and increases my damage. The armament does not. I'm going to slot one of these two if I'm using a herald or a banner. Trying to remove the armament from the equation is a gross misunderswtanding of how a captain is geared with either a banner or herald out.

    That said, currently the banner has Strength from Within self heal. If we look at this relationship:

    banner + banner item + SfW = herald + armament

    If we do as what you suggest:

    banner + banner item + SfW = herald + armament + SfW

    Simplified:

    banner + banner item = herald + armament

    Thus, by removing SfW from the banner vs. herald debate, you have taken something away from the banner. This is the very definition of a nerf.
    I don't follow. With no SfW vs pet mutual exclusion the banner does not loose anything. It makes the herald a little easier to cope with. It's a buff to the pets. It may not be a buff to the yellow line in general, but going 5 yellow with the capstone plus SfW and Now for Wrath sounds pretty cool to me. At least it would be if the capstone were worth a darn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    ....
    Should be true. This is why I have been advocating against removing the restriction for SfW, because that would shift the balance towards the herald, and neither should be the clearly better option.
    ....
    I snipped a bunch here.

    My goal is not to make one or the other the better option, and it's not to make then interchangeable. Interchangable means booring, and that neither option is very good. A loftier goal, in my opinion, is to make each herald a better choice for some situations, for the archer to be the better choice for some situations, and for a banner to be a better choice for some situations. I don't think that is an unobtainable goal. I think we can accomplish that by giving each herald a distinctive and effective skill, and to remove the SfW vs Herald mutual exclusion. I'd just like to be able to trait and go into an instance or raid or zone and be able to decide that my banner or archer or herald of war, hope, or victory is the better choice for this, and then adjust as needed. If that means SfW provides no healing when I have a herald out than I'm OK with that. If that means Lend Will doesn't work when SfW is slotted then I'm OK with that too.

    But the absolute worst scenario, and it is the one we are currently saddled with now, is that if I do choose to use a herald and it dies, I then have to slot up my banner, costing me power, costing my group a chunk of moral or power from the Herald of Hope or Victory dying, and I've lost my self healing for the rest of the fight. It's better to start with the banner and stick with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I'll look at the herald skills again and re-evaluate how I'm using them. I haven't done in at least 20 levels, if not longer, which would put that sometime around book 1.12 or so.

    When I need Lend Will, it's usually following a mis-pull while I'm soloing, and I'm surrrounded by too many mobs, fighting to survive. I'm also going to use a pot, LS, and/or man heal in the same fight. In those situations, the fight usually lasts over 90s, and sometimes I can pull it out. I can get off the first lend will pretty reliably, the second is hit or miss, and by the time the third comes around (if I even got a second), the herald is OOP. Other than situations like what I just described, I don't use Lend Will, becasue I don't need it.
    Back in the day, I used to run with the Herald of Victory because the increased in-combat power regen meant that he could use both skills on auto-fire and still have power to spare for Lend Will

    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    On the SFW argument i think the trait should be removed from the game =) that is just me of course. I already provided justification for my statement a couple days back, but since this thread has turned into yet again another Heated discussion of HOH traits i feel its necessary for me to say before i reply with my suggestion.
    ....
    I'm a little torn on this. I agree that for solo play SfW can be overpowered. But, after main-healing some of the 3-man content, I wouldn't like to do it again without having SfW slotted. I have had several very close calls and the SfW self heal only barely got me through. Likewise, I have had several raids where SfW just barely kept me up untill the healer could send me some moral. However, solo play in L the Charge or Leader of Men is where the loss of self healing would hurt the wost, but maybe that is a good thing.

    If SfW is abolished, we should get another way to self-heal that is only effective in groups. Maybe a percentage of the damage that our shield brother does could be sent back to us as healing. That would help us self heal some with a herald or archer pet, which is when I really feel the lack of self healing, even more so than when soloing in the red traitline and using a banner.
    Last edited by SGWB; Mar 08 2010 at 04:01 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000003071/01008/signature.png]Kalbarad[/charsig]

  22. #97
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SGWB View Post
    If SfW is abolished, we should get another way to self-heal that is only effective in groups. Maybe a percentage of the damage that our shield brother does could be sent back to us as healing. That would help us self heal some with a herald or archer pet, which is when I really feel the lack of self healing, even more so than when soloing in the red traitline and using a banner.
    I don't really think captain as a class needs sfw, I believe it has just made us lazy gits who don't use revealing mark properly. Revealing mark is a godlike skill that allows us to last much longer against any target we choose. It is also a more reliable and faster heal then sfw if used properly. Inc heal bonus effects this amount as well as any bonus to your personal dps, for instance oathbreakers allows for 35% more dmg which means you are getting 35% more back from Revealing mark during the duration.

    And if you really can't hack it without sfw equip the new mirkwood gloves for solo, 15% chance to give 73 morale on any dmg including each tick of a bleed. Combine that with Revealing mark and seriously who needs sfw for solo? http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Armou...f_the_Gloaming

  23. #98
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Here's something I would like to see, each herald, the archer, and the banners are designed for a specific situation, but since they are inherently different, they all have the same, equivalent value, so it's like a giant rock, paper, scissors set-up. Right now, we've got a 20T boulder with banner spray painted on it that was dropped on a piece of paper and a pair of scissors....

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Let's look at how each affects me directly as a captain: the banner buffs my morale and increases my damage. The armament does not. I'm going to slot one of these two if I'm using a herald or a banner. Trying to remove the armament from the equation is a gross misunderswtanding of how a captain is geared with either a banner or herald out.

    That said, currently the banner has Strength from Within self heal. If we look at this relationship:

    banner + banner item + SfW = herald + armament

    If we do as what you suggest:

    banner + banner item + SfW = herald + armament + SfW

    Simplified:

    banner + banner item = herald + armament

    Thus, by removing SfW from the banner vs. herald debate, you have taken something away from the banner. This is the very definition of a nerf.
    Sorry on that.... too many math classes in college, and I started to write a proof XD Apologies if it's difficult to understand.

    Think of the relationship below like an equation for a second:

    banner + banner item + SfW = herald + armament

    If the restriction is removed from SfW, where it can be slotted and used at any point, the equation would change to:

    banner + banner item + SfW = herald + armament + SfW

    And since that restriction is removed, it really doesn't matter if it's banner vs herald, so you might as well remove SfW from the equation, which would give:

    banner + banner item = herald + armament

    Compared to the original:

    banner + banner item + SfW = herald + armament
    banner + banner item = herald + armament

    The banner side has "lost" SfW, because it's not as restrictive anymore. This change would easily make SfW one of our best traits - a good self heal on a 20s cooldown with no drawbacks, other than increased power consumption?

    Considering that we're probably in melee range of the target, it will likely have the BoE debuff on it, so we can take a chance and use Defensive Strike (which is probably being spammed with Inspire to begin with) to get some power back, or traited Rallying Cry - it's not as bad of a power drain as you might think.

    Quote Originally Posted by SGWB View Post
    If SfW is abolished, we should get another way to self-heal that is only effective in groups. Maybe a percentage of the damage that our shield brother does could be sent back to us as healing. That would help us self heal some with a herald or archer pet, which is when I really feel the lack of self healing, even more so than when soloing in the red traitline and using a banner.
    Honestly, I haven't had much of an issue soloing with a 0/2/5 traiting using Master of War, Now For Wrath, and the cry cost reduction trait - and I've done a lot of content including the Mirkwood stuff with the herald out (usually a Herald of War), and have not had an issue with taking 2-3 mobs. 4 + can be a bit hair, and anything over 6 is pretty much death waiting to happen, or a lot of blown cooldowns. Self healing, at least for me, hasn't been much of an issue - although I do have a lot of the legacies that takes Rallying Cry from a good skill to horribly broken, so that might be affecting my perception on what a captain can do.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  24. #99
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    ...
    Sorry on that.... too many math classes in college, and I started to write a proof XD Apologies if it's difficult to understand.
    ....
    The banner side has "lost" SfW, because it's not as restrictive anymore. This change would easily make SfW one of our best traits - a good self heal on a 20s cooldown with no drawbacks, other than increased power consumption?
    I understand the math, I just don't agree with your assumptions. Using math to justify subjective judgments is dubious. If you remove the SfW/pet exclusion, it does not make the banner worse, it only makes the herald a little better. I think that if the self healing imbalance were removed it would become easier to balance banner vs herald in the long run.

    In context, the SfW heal is not all that impressive. I get about 1.1 k moral per minute from it.

    My in-combat moral regen is about 1k moral per minute
    Lend will only heals an average of .4k per minute

    In comparison, traited 4 red I'm doing around 230 DPS, healing myself for something in the neighborhood of 2k moral per minute at no additional power cost.

    Rallying Cry can heal for somthing in the neighborhood of 4k moral per minute and return power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Honestly, I haven't had much of an issue soloing with a 0/2/5 traiting using Master of War, Now For Wrath, and the cry cost reduction trait - and I've done a lot of content including the Mirkwood stuff with the herald out (usually a Herald of War), and have not had an issue with taking 2-3 mobs. 4 + can be a bit hair, and anything over 6 is pretty much death waiting to happen, or a lot of blown cooldowns. Self healing, at least for me, hasn't been much of an issue - although I do have a lot of the legacies that takes Rallying Cry from a good skill to horribly broken, so that might be affecting my perception on what a captain can do.
    Yes, for solo play Strength from Within is not so important. I'm talking mostly about main-healing content, when there is no one else to heal you and the Ralling Cry opportunities are not forthcoming. Turbine obviously thought we needed the increased self healing because the keep making it better in the effort to turn us into main healers.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000003071/01008/signature.png]Kalbarad[/charsig]

  25. #100
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SGWB View Post
    I understand the math, I just don't agree with your assumptions. Using math to justify subjective judgments is dubious. If you remove the SfW/pet exclusion, it does not make the banner worse, it only makes the herald a little better. I think that if the self healing imbalance were removed it would become easier to balance banner vs herald in the long run.

    In context, the SfW heal is not all that impressive. I get about 1.1 k moral per minute from it.

    My in-combat moral regen is about 1k moral per minute
    Lend will only heals an average of .4k per minute

    In comparison, traited 4 red I'm doing around 230 DPS, healing myself for something in the neighborhood of 2k moral per minute at no additional power cost.

    Rallying Cry can heal for somthing in the neighborhood of 4k moral per minute and return power.
    Either way, by removing the restriction from SfW, SfW becomes one of the, if not THE, best captain traits. Do we really need to give captains yet another reason to spec HoH just to fix the herald?

    Lend Will needs to have it's cool down halved, it's costs to the herald reduced (let's rip away 1/4 it's morale and a good chunk of it's power for a mediocre heal at best), and the healing amount buffed so that it's somewhat comparable to a traited SfW.... let alone MC + SfW + legacy
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

 

 
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