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  1. #51
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    In response to the bolded part, I have done SG with Loyalty and Precise ally slotted. And this is how it went.

    I used Power Herald for 1st boss he did not die or take dmg from the fire.

    I used Archer herald for the2nd boss and on a different attempt I used Power Herald on the 2nd boss. The herald is completely unaffected by the lightning and can dps the boss without issue.

    3rd boss I used Power herald no issues he did not die but he was taking minimal dmg.

    4th boss, Archer herald caused some problems with placing he was standing in the way of the flow of bones i fixed that easy enough and he was completely uneffected by the green flames.

    I should have parsed it but i didn't I don't really know how much dps the herald added to the fight. I know at least for the second boss he did more dmg then me which was none i was in the corner healing the hunters.
    Although this certainly isn't your fault, what you're telling us is that the bad coding that allowed people to exploit the Turtle with their heralds still exists and can be taken advantage of for bosses 1, 2, and 4 in SG?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    The standard doesn't move with you. You have to put it down again everytime your group moves. This is annoying. That is time i could be spending doing something else, not to mention it is equally annoying how the max power and health bonuses often time go to waste because when you put the banner down it doesn't fill the bars. With a herald this isnt' the case, as they move with the group and everyone retains their full benefits while on the move.
    It takes one second to replant your banner.

    The only instance in the game where you're really moving all that quickly is the Gauntlet in BG, and even then it's move -> fight for a couple minutes -> move. (And Skumfil HM, I suppose, but most of the time I feel that it's safe to assume that such discussions are focusing on level-cap content).

    As a Captain, one of your many contributions to the group is being a damage sponge when times get rough. If you have your Banner of Hope equipped and thus are at 8k or 9k+ morale you're more likely to be able to use In Harm's Way without having to burn Last Stand as well. Obviously, you're less likely to be able to do this when you're sitting somewhere in the 5ks or 6ks because you have a herald out instead.

    However, this is all personal choice, I suppose. I choose to make my Captain optimal, others can choose otherwise. If I've learned anything from the LOTRO forums, it's that just about anything is a valid playstyle.

  2. #52
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    Although this certainly isn't your fault, what you're telling us is that the bad coding that allowed people to exploit the Turtle with their heralds still exists and can be taken advantage of for bosses 1, 2, and 4 in SG?



    It takes one second to replant your banner.

    The only instance in the game where you're really moving all that quickly is the Gauntlet in BG, and even then it's move -> fight for a couple minutes -> move. (And Skumfil HM, I suppose, but most of the time I feel that it's safe to assume that such discussions are focusing on level-cap content).

    As a Captain, one of your many contributions to the group is being a damage sponge when times get rough. If you have your Banner of Hope equipped and thus are at 8k or 9k+ morale you're more likely to be able to use In Harm's Way without having to burn Last Stand as well. Obviously, you're less likely to be able to do this when you're sitting somewhere in the 5ks or 6ks because you have a herald out instead.

    However, this is all personal choice, I suppose. I choose to make my Captain optimal, others can choose otherwise. If I've learned anything from the LOTRO forums, it's that just about anything is a valid playstyle.

    Actually I have noticed any content Damage that is avoidable damage by a PC, does not seem to affect my herald. where as unavoidable dmg usually does not sure if its on purpose or what.


    Seriously the bolded part... I am not gonna say what i want to say about it =) but you know its wrong in more ways then one to say something elitist like that.

  3. #53
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    What level are you herald advocates? Have you _tried_ running Strength from Within with a Hope banner? Seriously tried it? As a class that has relatively limited self healing, the Strength from Within heal is huge. Massive. Even with relatively mediocre legendary items, you're looking at 500+pts of "outgoing" healing (i.e. just from the tooltip - not what actually hits you, which will be bigger) every 25 seconds. Plus herald DPS is so terrible that 10% of my DPS is about what I lose for not having him.

    The inherent buffs on the banner are roughly equivalent to the herald. That's fine and balanced. It allows people to choose whether they want to be "annoyed" by planting a banner every time they move, or whether they want to be "annoyed" by actually having to change states on their pet once every 5 minutes. (Personally, I find the former much more annoying than the latter.) The problem is that there's no substitute for Strength From Within. It's not even CLOSE. In a fight that lasts any sort of duration, you're looking at literally thousands points of morale healed. I was futzing around in Scuttledells the other day and ran into some level 64 elite, which I pulled without paying attention... and then I killed it without even needing to use a potion, nevermind Last Stand or Strength of Morale. Do not underestimate the potency of Strength from Within.

    Heralds desperately need some sort of boost to compensate for this trait. Whether it's another trait, or whether it's just a serious boost to their Lend Will ability, or something, there really isn't any contest right now, which makes me sad, because I would _prefer_ to use the herald, but my testing has indicated quite clearly that, at my gear level at least, not traiting Strength from Within would be incredibly foolhardy. The boost in my ability to kill tough single mobs is absolutely invaluable - and I don't even have an emblem with Vocal Skills healing on it, nor is my Muster Courage cooldown maxxed out, so I could be getting around 40% _more_ healing out of this trait with 15% Vocal Skills Healing and maxxed out Muster Courage cooldown.

    The Ease of Use for Heralds and Banners is roughly equivalent. The problem is that right now, Banners win for BOTH survivability AND Damage output thanks to SfW. If Heralds offered enough healing to make up the survivability loss for SfW+Banner Morale, that would be good. If Heralds did enough DPS to beat the 20% from the Standard of War, that would be good. As it is, they don't do either one. They can offtank moderately well, but that's not useful in groups and it's of no value when you're trying to beat down a a big solo elite.

    Heralds need some serious attention. I suggest a combination of DPS increases and improvements to Lend Will. This isn't even really a trait issue - though if you gave me a trait that made Lend Will tons better, I'd probably slot it in place of Strength from Within - it's really just a native pet power issue. I love Heralds. I'd far rather command a pet than plant a dinky little stick in the ground (Aside: The visual for our banners is still pitiful. They should be larger and more glamorous. At least at high levels.) but right now, the numbers just don't lend themselves to it.

  4. #54
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    In one thread, or maybe a dev diary, a developer commented that they have been trying to make area damage effects not damage pets. That doesn't mean AoE attacks from mobs, just effects that do or don't hit a player based on where they are standing. They experimented with coding the pet AI to move out of damage areas, but it caused strange effects.

    Oddly enough, even though they don't have moral pools, banners can be slain by instant kill area effects. When doing "Death from Below", if I leave my banner in the last chamber where the troll pops, I frequently notice a chat message saying that my banner has been slain by goblin explosion.


    In any case, I think that rehabilitating LoM and rehabilitating pets are separate issues.

    The problem with Heralds is that they can't do much other than off-tank. Even traited up, they just become better off-tanks. Or I should say, the Herald of Hope is a good off tank. With the banner buff it has more moral and better health regen that any other herald. The problem is that they can't really hold up against much healing aggro. The heralds need differentiation beyond just the banner buffs. The Herald of War should be a better tank, maybe not as good as the LM Bear, but better than the Herald of Hope. The Herald of Hope should have a group healing role. The Herald of Victory needs something else, but I'm not sure what. Maybe a snare, a reliable stun, or an interrupt. The Archer is pretty good on it's own. It does respectable ranged DPS, and that is a tremendous asset in many encounters. If I time To Arms correctly and the Archer gets a crit I sometimes find myself fighting it for aggro. It's become part of my standard solo build (4 red/2 yellow/1 blue). The only problem with the Archer is that the Capstone trait doesn't do it justice.


    I'd like Leader of Men to morph into an enhanced buffing/wipe prevention line/group utility line. I may be repeating others in this thread, I apologize if I do. By no means do I wish to steal your thunder. Some of these suggestion could also stack with legacies to make skills over-powered. I think this a symptom of legacies being used to make up for deficiencies in classes, not just to enhance abilities. Also, in looking at the traits in the line, It struck men that there are only 3 buff related traits in the yellow line: Captain of War, Captain's Victory, and Tactical Prowess. There isn't much there to improve, really.

    Blood of Númenor - have it improve Cry of Vengeance to rez players with half moral.

    Defiance - Allow Last Stand to also prevent induction knock-back. Currently, when a mini goes down I hit In Harms Way + Last stand expecting to buy me a little time to rez, but now all the mobs are on me and I can't get Escape from Darkness off due to skill knock-back.

    Composure - have it remove or drastically reduce the moral cost for Time of Need

    Captain of War - 20% rather than 15% improvement for war cry.

    Tactical Prowess - 10 second improvement rather than 5.

    3 trait bonus - In Harms Way also prevents induction knock-back for our allies and will continue to mitigate 50% of damage if or when the captain runs out of moral, unless the captain is dead.

    4 trait bonus - move the FM starter to Grave wound and make it 15% or 20%

    Capstone Trait - Defy Corruption should become the capstone trait and it should provide some kind of group effect in addition to the rez. Maybe a power restore over time, perhaps 1K power over the space of a minute.

    Valiant Strike - OK, I know that this is in Hands of Healing but hear me out. The HoH capstone trait's ability to heal 1K moral to every player every 1.5 minutes is so good, that It's hard to give up no matter what the other trait lines can do. Outside of HoH, Valiant Strike is woefully underpowered for a skill with a 2 minute cooldown. When I'm not in HoH Valiant strike just becomes an occasional DPS skill. I'd like to see the Valiant Strike Initial heal increased to 300 moral, and cut the skill's damage output in half and increase it's power consumption. That would make the trade off more palatable for me without, in my opinion, making it over powered. As I recall it's only a 100 point heal normally and 200 points on initial use with HoH.

    Strength From Within - remove the pet/SfW mutual exclusion. It's obsolete and it makes me less likely to trait for pets. in a group.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000003071/01008/signature.png]Kalbarad[/charsig]

  5. #55
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Not sure why I didn't think of removing the "no pets" restriction from Strength from Within. That'd go a good ways to making them more viable under solo circumstances anyway.

  6. #56
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Why is the "no pets" aspect of Strength from Within obsolete?

    The name of the trait itself means that you're getting strength from within rather than without (i.e., a herald's Lend Will).

    How is it obsolete? What's changed since the class trait came out to make it obsolete?

  7. #57
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    Why is the "no pets" aspect of Strength from Within obsolete?

    The name of the trait itself means that you're getting strength from within rather than without (i.e., a herald's Lend Will).

    How is it obsolete? What's changed since the class trait came out to make it obsolete?
    The fact that banners are inequivocally the best choice for a captain with that trait available? The problem, I suppose is that the SfW heal (I hesitate to speculate upon the original design goal of this trait since it would come out like 'This trait lets you give up something you don't like anyway, to cover one of your biggest weaknesses'. Ookaaaay.) scales absurdly with all the heal boosting options available in Legendary form to literally double or more the original power of the trait.

    Is it obsolete? No. Is the reasoning that people might for some reason choose a Herald with this trait as an option? Yes.

  8. #58
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    While I'll solo, and poke around Moria 6-mans without SfW.... It get slotted when running PUG SG runs, and most 3 man content, 'cause guess what? I'm the healer. And the healer needs to heal themselves.

    The big problem with SfW, is that it completely NERFS this entire tree. LoM Capstone with SfW? What's the point?

    However, removing the restriction on SfW would make it a completely broken must have....

    So the herald/archer and armaments must be buffed so they make the choice to slot SfW an actual choice, instead of a no-brainer - which is what I've been saying throughout most of the thread.

    And for the love of all that's right, DON'T NERF STRENGTH FROM WITHIN.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  9. #59
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    Seriously the bolded part... I am not gonna say what i want to say about it =) but you know its wrong in more ways then one to say something elitist like that.
    Not really. Bottom line is this is a game of numbers and very simplistically...


    Damage out vs Damage in minus healing.


    Now for sure this game can be rather forgiving, but the reason a minority of players have taken down the Lt is so many refuse to deal with trying to find that optimal. I mean seriously if that was NOT the case why are we pounding our heads into the wall over two of our trait lines?

    You can call that elitist or anything else you want, but there are bad builds, good builds and better builds... sorry .
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  10. #60
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    I'd like this line to be good enough that I don't feel gimped (like I do when I trait down it currently) compared to the other two lines.

    Before it can be fixed, it needs to be focused.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  11. #61

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    I only ever slot 2 of these at any time to get the mark CD removed. In groups I do better healing traited, and solo I do better DPS traited. I think the only way they're going to make this trait line useful is to either focus it on buffing, or focus it on being a viable DPS source for pets. Doing some kind of mish-mash in the middle benefits no one. I really do think they should look at the captain's herald and buff it up to banner standards.

    In my head I keep coming back to the idea of adding buffs for fellowship and captain but having it tied to a herald's life. Kinda like the soldiers in skirmishes. They die, you lose the buffs. But in longer fights, that'd really suck if it can't be replaced by the banner. I spose I'm a little bitter that a low ranked soldier is more useful than a herald because I get to choose what I need a soldier to do to complement my playstyle.
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  12. #62
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    I've been asking for the LoM capstone to allow us to resummon our pets in battle as well. This, to me, would make it 10X better. So if it would give the heralds a significant boost to dps and defense as well as allow us to resummon them I would be one happy captain.

  13. #63
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    Why is the "no pets" aspect of Strength from Within obsolete?

    The name of the trait itself means that you're getting strength from within rather than without (i.e., a herald's Lend Will).

    How is it obsolete? What's changed since the class trait came out to make it obsolete?
    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    The fact that banners are inequivocally the best choice for a captain with that trait available? The problem, I suppose is that the SfW heal (I hesitate to speculate upon the original design goal of this trait since it would come out like 'This trait lets you give up something you don't like anyway, to cover one of your biggest weaknesses'. Ookaaaay.) scales absurdly with all the heal boosting options available in Legendary form to literally double or more the original power of the trait.

    Is it obsolete? No. Is the reasoning that people might for some reason choose a Herald with this trait as an option? Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    While I'll solo, and poke around Moria 6-mans without SfW.... It get slotted when running PUG SG runs, and most 3 man content, 'cause guess what? I'm the healer. And the healer needs to heal themselves.

    The big problem with SfW, is that it completely NERFS this entire tree. LoM Capstone with SfW? What's the point?

    However, removing the restriction on SfW would make it a completely broken must have....

    So the herald/archer and armaments must be buffed so they make the choice to slot SfW an actual choice, instead of a no-brainer - which is what I've been saying throughout most of the thread.

    And for the love of all that's right, DON'T NERF STRENGTH FROM WITHIN.

    If you ask me I think Strength From Within never should have been added to the game, I know I have voiced my opinion on this many times but I still think banner/sfw is nothing but a cop out for a pet class. I do not disagree that it is a good thing to trait and use, but I would have preferred if banners and SFW never became an option for captains.

    Using heralds since the begging of the game has skewed my opinion of course as keeping an eye on my herald and finding places for him to stand/fight in not safe battles is second nature to me. Sometimes very simple things like ensureing your pet is behind the boss instead of in front of him makes all the difference in the world. Most people don't take the time to do that. Buffing and healing your pet is much easier than most people ever try to understand. Target forwarding allows you to set your pet on a boss/monster while still having your pet targeted for heals. You can literally switch between boss/herald without ever stopping your auto attack roll or melee skills and still heal both the tank and herald with surprising efficiency.

    Banner's just always seemed the greedy way to me, Personally gaining dmg and morale, in exchange for group wide benefit of having the herald move with you even get knocked back with you. I realized a long time ago that having 10-20% of your melee dps separate from you is a good thing.

    But lately I have been feeling that heralds dps has been either going down or just not going up to match new content.


    Quote Originally Posted by anaraion View Post
    Not really. Bottom line is this is a game of numbers and very simplistically...


    Damage out vs Damage in minus healing.


    Now for sure this game can be rather forgiving, but the reason a minority of players have taken down the Lt is so many refuse to deal with trying to find that optimal. I mean seriously if that was NOT the case why are we pounding our heads into the wall over two of our trait lines?

    You can call that elitist or anything else you want, but there are bad builds, good builds and better builds... sorry .
    Although I understand what your saying anaraion, I respectfully disagree.

    There is a big difference between the elitism statement he made and yours.

    If all he had said was this "I choose to make my Captain optimal, others can choose otherwise." I would not have said anything as it is a boorish statement on its own. But he specifically quoted his own personal way of playing the class and called his way optimal. Summarizing it he basically said if you don't have 8-9k morale(with banner) as a captain so you can use IHW without needing heals you are not an optimal captain. When in truth all you have to do is tell the mini in voice chat your useing IHW, and he/she will gladly toss you a heal more then making up for not having 9k morale.

    What you are saying is fundamentally sound, a Captain chooses the optimal way to trait after taking into account all aspects of a situation being raid/6man/3man/solo Content, Raid makeup, Class composition, group structure, and how each particular person is traiting in that group.

    But a bad build for one thing can be the optimal build for another.

    His optimal build for IHW could very easily get him killed in certain content with large aoe dmg spikes. Certain boss's have very nice 3k dmg aoe attacks easily absorbed by the fellowship, IHW turns 3k to all into 1.5kx6 to you which is 9k dps not counting extra melee dmg.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beorthelion View Post
    I've been asking for the LoM capstone to allow us to resummon our pets in battle as well. This, to me, would make it 10X better. So if it would give the heralds a significant boost to dps and defense as well as allow us to resummon them I would be one happy captain.
    Would certainly make me want to trait 5 yellow =) summoning herald in battle to match situational needs sound nice.
    Last edited by ydoc; Mar 02 2010 at 11:06 AM.

  14. #64
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SGWB View Post
    Strength From Within - remove the pet/SfW mutual exclusion. It's obsolete and it makes me less likely to trait for pets. in a group.
    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    Not sure why I didn't think of removing the "no pets" restriction from Strength from Within. That'd go a good ways to making them more viable under solo circumstances anyway.
    Since SfW replaces Herald heal with Muster Courage self-heal, how about having SfW greying out the Herald heal rather than preventing the use of the Herald altogether? That way, Captains are still limited to one minor self-heal, but can still use Heralds.
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  15. #65
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    Why is the "no pets" aspect of Strength from Within obsolete?

    The name of the trait itself means that you're getting strength from within rather than without (i.e., a herald's Lend Will).

    How is it obsolete? What's changed since the class trait came out to make it obsolete?
    The mutual exclusion is obsolete because SfW can heal several times more moral over time than Lend Will. Lend Will is on a much longer cool down and the amount of healing per use is comparable. Lend Will is also unreliable because it is an attack. The Herald can miss with the attack, spending the power and moral cost and the cooldown, but the captain isn't healed. SfW always works as long as the captain has power. The Heralds themselves are also somewhat obsolete now that the Archer pet is so much more effective for providing additional DPS, and the archer can not use Lend Will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier View Post
    Since SfW replaces Herald heal with Muster Courage self-heal, how about having SfW greying out the Herald heal rather than preventing the use of the Herald altogether? That way, Captains are still limited to one minor self-heal, but can still use Heralds.
    I think that's a great idea.
    Last edited by SGWB; Mar 02 2010 at 12:10 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000003071/01008/signature.png]Kalbarad[/charsig]

  16. #66
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    However, removing the restriction on SfW would make it a completely broken must have....
    Please explain how that it is different from how it is now.

    Seriously. Most of the people posting here pick banners without even MENTIONING SfW. If they're that far ahead ON THEIR OWN, how is this trait not already a broken must have? Because being able to get another 600pt heal every 90 seconds on top of SfW would totally push us over the top?

  17. #67
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    Please explain how that it is different from how it is now.

    Seriously. Most of the people posting here pick banners without even MENTIONING SfW. If they're that far ahead ON THEIR OWN, how is this trait not already a broken must have? Because being able to get another 600pt heal every 90 seconds on top of SfW would totally push us over the top?
    'Cause if the healer in the group is halfway competent, this trait is redundant. By also healing yourself, and spamming Muster Courage, you are also depriving the group of removing fears when they need it - since you are only removing fear whenever you feel you need to be healed, which can cause significantly MORE damage over the fight.

    The only reason this trait is balanced at the moment is because it denies us our heralds. Remove that restriction, and this trait WILL be slotted by every single captain. That kind of self heal should be a legendary trait - it's just that good.

    SfW is a very good trait, but a must have? Pssst... hardly.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  18. #68
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    'Cause if the healer in the group is halfway competent, this trait is redundant. By also healing yourself, and spamming Muster Courage, you are also depriving the group of removing fears when they need it - since you are only removing fear whenever you feel you need to be healed, which can cause significantly MORE damage over the fight.
    So how does this change with removing the pet denial? It doesn't, so this is irrelevant. Also, frankly, your description is only accurate if you play like an idiot. You will still use MC to remove fear if there are fears worth removing (sorry, but a lot of fear effects are completely irrelevant.) - and hey, you'll get a heal when you do. But you'll also have this available as an emergency heal. Who knows. Maybe the healer goes LD. Maybe you ARE the healer. Your scenario is excessively specific.

    The only reason this trait is balanced at the moment is because it denies us our heralds.
    But would we be using them WITHOUT this trait? Solo? Maaaaybe. In groups? No. Therefore, we're not losing anything by using this trait.

    Remove that restriction, and this trait WILL be slotted by every single captain. That kind of self heal should be a legendary trait - it's just that good.
    Again, explain how that is different from now.

    SfW is a very good trait, but a must have? Pssst... hardly.
    So how does removing the irrelevant 'no pet' restriction make a difference, since everyone is all "screw the herald, use a banner" anyway?

    You are failing to address the fact that the limitation really doesn't bother anyone except the small number of captains that would -like- to use the pet for whatever reason. Why should they be penalized for taking what is already the generally inferior option?

    Look at it like this:

    Do you think Heralds and Banners are balanced WITHOUT this trait? If you think that Banners are better, OR if you think they are balanced without it, then there is no reason to restrict this trait. The only time the pet restriction makes sense is if pets are actually better than banners without this trait. And I don't think you'll find many people willing to make that argument.

    Here, we'll do this like math. The ideal scenario looks like this:

    Herald~Banner (That's herald is equivalent to banner)

    What we have now looks like this:

    Herald~Banner + SfW.

    This implies that:

    Herald > Banner (without SfW)

    since that is pretty patently not the case, it stands to reason that we might want to try:

    Herald + SfW ~ Banner + SfW

    You with me yet?
    Last edited by mpureka; Mar 03 2010 at 12:47 PM.

  19. #69

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Well, I think you missed a slight detail, in that with SFW, as I understand it, you can get the self buff portion of the banner, but you can't plant the banner to get the aura. If I'm mistaken on that, you can ignore the rest of this, but that's what it sounds like people are saying (I still have to finish up SfW myself, since I've been lazy about it). So it's basically:

    Archer vs
    Herald abilities + aura vs
    Banner selfbuff + aura vs
    Banner selfbuff + SfW.

    Toss out the archer, and you get

    Herald + Aura ? Banner selfbuff + aura ? Banner Selfbuff + SfW.

    Assume for the moment that the Herald's native abilities are roughly equal in value to the Banner selfbuff (which can be argued, but leave that for the moment), and you're basically trading the aura vs SfW. Now, if you don't weight the Herald and the Selfbuff the same, then it's a little more complicated.

  20. #70
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,714

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    Here, we'll do this like math. The ideal scenario looks like this:

    Herald ~ Banner (That's herald is equivalent to banner)

    What we have now looks like this:

    Herald + LW ~ Banner + SfW.

    This implies that:

    Herald + LW > Banner (without SfW)

    since that is pretty patently not the case, it stands to reason that we might want to try:

    Herald + SfW ~ Banner + SfW

    You with me yet?
    Just thought I'd add in the Herald self-heal, Lend Will (LW) since it's an important (albeit minor) part of the equation.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060000000ad326/01008/signature.png]Hunberht[/charsig]

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1,651

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    'Cause if the healer in the group is halfway competent, this trait is redundant. By also healing yourself, and spamming Muster Courage, you are also depriving the group of removing fears when they need it - since you are only removing fear whenever you feel you need to be healed, which can cause significantly MORE damage over the fight.

    The only reason this trait is balanced at the moment is because it denies us our heralds. Remove that restriction, and this trait WILL be slotted by every single captain. That kind of self heal should be a legendary trait - it's just that good.

    SfW is a very good trait, but a must have? Pssst... hardly.

    I'll agree with you that SfW is not a must have. But, I submit the conjecture that very few Captains use a herald when doing serious content anyway, so most of them slot the trait. I believe that the SfW/Pet mutual exclusion only serves to rule out pet use for the greater portion of Captain players. How I use the trait depends on the content. For some content it only makes sense to self heal as much as possible. Maybe there are no fears to be concerned about and you want to take as much load as possible off the healer. Also by using SfW I generate healing aggro against every mob in the combat, which can help if I have to tank or off-tank something.

    At one time SfW vs herald was a fair trade off. The self heal was roughly equivalent to Lend Will. But, Captain pet use has been mostly ignored by the devs since launch. The only significant changes since then have been the Archer, which can not heal us, Oathbraker Armaments, which are cosmetic only, and Master of Oaths, which adds a little moral but has virtually no effect otherwise. Herald DPS and durability has not scaled well. I did the math on my character, and SfW can return 2.64 times as much self healing as Lend Will can, and I don't even have the Muster Courage cool down legacy. Even so, The SfW self heal is less effective than Rallying Cry for self healing which can give me 1K+ moral every 15 seconds and return more power than it uses. On top of that, in order to trait the pet for decent damage and durability I have to use up 2 class trait slots, and I still have to use Now For Vengeance or else my pet is constantly running out of power.

    The point being, that having a less than 100% reliable, underpowered, over costly heal on a pet is no compensation for loosing the self heal from SfW. The only time I currently use a pet these days is for solo work or some group content because it makes things go a bit faster or because it is some fringe case where the pet is useful. 9 times out of 10, if I use a pet it'll be the archer for the DPS, in which case I don't even get the benefit of Lend Will, and the archer's moral is too low for it to do a lot of tanking for me. This would be a very different conversation if heralds brought special capabilities like Lore Master pets do. But, Captains are NOT really a pet class. Heralds were an afterthought tacked onto Captains late in development as a nerf. The only Captain pet that does anything interesting is the Archer with it's ranged DPS. Heralds can certainly be a part of a useful strategy, but I have to hang my head in pity every time I see a Captain running around with an Oathbreaker pet, which absolutely do not live up to their promise.
    Last edited by SGWB; Mar 03 2010 at 02:09 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000003071/01008/signature.png]Kalbarad[/charsig]

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1,651

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omethelon View Post
    Well, I think you missed a slight detail, in that with SFW, as I understand it, you can get the self buff portion of the banner, but you can't plant the banner to get the aura.
    ....
    That is not true. I can plant my banner and get the self buff + the Aura + SfW self healing all at the same time.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000003071/01008/signature.png]Kalbarad[/charsig]

  23. #73

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    That's interesting. I could've sworn the trait said that you couldn't use the banner. Looks like the Lorebook is out of date some - the text listed on the main Captain page says you can't summon Heralds, Archers, OR Banners, but when I click on the link for the trait the text on that page only lists Heralds and Archers.

    Very interesting. In which case, yeah, unless you put serious weight on the Herald's native capabilities, there's no point in using it vs SfW unless you don't have room for SfW for some other reason. Time for me to get off my butt and get that trait.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b0000000f66fc/01003/signature.png]Belten[/charsig]

  24. #74
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    6 Long Street, Hamglen, Breeland
    Posts
    748

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SGWB View Post
    Strength From Within - remove the pet/SfW mutual exclusion. It's obsolete and it makes me less likely to trait for pets. in a group.
    This. The only reason I don't slot Strength from Within is that it removes my ability to summon pets. If I could at least use my archer with this trait slotted, I would slot it and never let it go. I know that it removes your ability to use heralds because of the herald heal, but not only does that heal cost the poor herald more morale than it's worth, the archer has NO heal associated with it, making it even more difficult to keep myself alive during a tough battle against two sigs and their friends, all the more so since I use my archer almost exclusively when soloing.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    203

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier View Post
    Just thought I'd add in the Herald self-heal, Lend Will (LW) since it's an important (albeit minor) part of the equation.
    I disagree. Lend Will is PART of the Herald. Strength from Within is independant of the Banner.

    But I see that other people have corrected the other confusions and misconceptions regarding this.

    Heralds simply don't have enough value for the equation to be balanced with Strength from Within ONLY on the Banner side of things.

 

 
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