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  1. #26
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Here's a thought.... make the armaments choose the damage type, but leave it inactive until the capstone trait is slotted.

    So:
    Oathbreakers & Elves: Beleriand
    Race of Men: Westerness
    Dwarves: Ancient Dwarf

    There also needs to be a stat buff on the armament for the captain, so it lessens the difference between the armament and the banner.

    hmm Lore wise I think Oathbreakers would more likely be westernesse. probbaly not a good idea to tie damage type to hearld race.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000018bb48/01008/signature.png]Certhonion[/charsig]
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  2. #27
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    Solid point here - if the trait line just buffs the herald, it's still useless in groups. If it gives very significant buffs to the SB, or greater buffs to the group as a whole, then it might be viable.
    Did you read my original post? Do you think that is too dependant on buffing the herald? There are only two pet traits in the whole line. What do you think is too much 'pet buffing' vs 'group buffing'?

  3. #28
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    Did you read my original post? Do you think that is too dependant on buffing the herald? There are only two pet traits in the whole line. What do you think is too much 'pet buffing' vs 'group buffing'?
    I was responding directly to the person I quoted. Specifically, their comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by seyahat View Post
    So if LoM is basically about an upgraded pet, it will be a solo line.
    Presumably, seyahat's response was directed mostly at the posts preceding his/hers that were focusing primarily on herald-specific buffs. I can't say for sure, since seyahat didn't quote anyone, but that's my guess.

    Even taken independently, my statement of "if the trait line just buffs the herald, it's still useless in groups" is pretty clear. If your idea isn't a trait line that just buffs the herald (which it isn't), then I'm not talking about your post.

  4. #29
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    I desperately want this line to work for something. Here is what I mainly do to play and toy with it a bit. I use the pet line and some power stuff and use a oath archer, then slot 2 DPS traits to get some DPS going, works pretty good in Skirmishes. But in a group, yuck, we could add so much more.

    On a fun note though, I did run with Leader of Men in Forges. When fighting O'l Kranky I used the pet to follow us around and give us the power buff while fighting him around the forge. This is so I would not have to replant my banner ever few steps. It worked! I was so excited that I actually found a use for my pet in an instance, he also did some impressive off tanking and kept up without anyone healing him. But then every run after that he would perish in the fire and I could never duplicate my accidental success ever again. This trait line does need some work.
    Last edited by 4u2nv; Feb 26 2010 at 04:56 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060000000c5598/signature.png]Tychicus[/charsig]

  5. #30
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Yeah, it's pretty obvious that if it's -just- a pet line, it would be solo, but making this a line that only buffs the pet is A) Not what the line is now B) Not what I proposed the line should be and C) A really really stupid idea.

    So why are we talking about it? :P
    Last edited by mpureka; Feb 26 2010 at 05:06 PM.

  6. Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpureka View Post
    Yeah, it's pretty obvious that if it's -just- a pet line, it would be solo, but making this a line that only buffs the pet is A) Not what the line is now B) Not what I proposed the line should be and C) A really really stupid idea.

    So why are we talking about it? :P
    To be clear, my comments were not directed at your original post, which I thought was very helpful.

    I think the train has left the station, but I'd really like to get rid of the whole Oathbreaker-pet-as-capstone idea entirely. Not likely in this lifetime, however.

    I love, however, the idea of a percentage chance that Shield Brother skills be given to the whole of the fellowship. Even if it is 10% chance, it is the sort of trait line bonus that will get us thinking seriously about going heavy down this line.
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  7. #32
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    What if the LoM capstone trait also boosted the buff from the herald (in addition to what it does now), but ONLY the buff from the herald, not the banner.

    Also, after thinking about damage type, we'd need recipes for armaments similar to what they do with the instruments for minis, at least for west and bel damage - this would help separate out appearance from damage type, for the most part

    Rep heralds could offer anc dwarf (Thorin's Hall) and damage combinations (bel + orc, etc).

  8. #33
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    What if the LoM capstone trait also boosted the buff from the herald (in addition to what it does now), but ONLY the buff from the herald, not the banner.

    Also, after thinking about damage type, we'd need recipes for armaments similar to what they do with the instruments for minis, at least for west and bel damage - this would help separate out appearance from damage type, for the most part

    Rep heralds could offer anc dwarf (Thorin's Hall) and damage combinations (bel + orc, etc).
    I am not sure i agree with heralds having buffs like banners.

    Banners were put into the game to give captains an alternative to heralds the buffs on banners are there to offset what you lose by not useing a herald which is a lot.

    Giving armaments inherent buffs to the captain would essential unbalance an already balance equation.

    It could be argued that for instance a Banner of war that gives +20% melee dmg is not in balance with a Banner of war Herald with loyalty equipped and yellow capstone. Perhaps we do need some balanceing but i think damage type changes for heralds would solve that mostly.

    edit: I miss my herald =(
    Last edited by ydoc; Feb 27 2010 at 12:46 AM.

  9. #34
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    I am not sure i agree with heralds having buffs like banners.

    Banners were put into the game to give captains an alternative to heralds the buffs on banners are there to offset what you lose by not useing a herald which is a lot.

    Giving armaments inherent buffs to the captain would essential unbalance an already balance equation.

    It could be argued that for instance a Banner of war that gives +20% melee dmg is not in balance with a Banner of war Herald with loyalty equipped and yellow capstone. Perhaps we do need some balanceing but i think damage type changes for heralds would solve that mostly.

    edit: I miss my herald =(
    There needs to be some buff to the captain for the armaments.... otherwise, a herald will NEVER be accepted in a raid, simply because the herald makes the captain weaker.

  10. #35
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    There needs to be some buff to the captain for the armaments.... otherwise, a herald will NEVER be accepted in a raid, simply because the herald makes the captain weaker.
    Lately i have been noticing pets in general just ignore damage from certain boss's things that would normally one shot them. It seems like Turbine is trying at least to keep pets viable even in big raids.

    One of the ideas i think i posted in the captain dps thread was that the yellow capstone could give a melee attack that pulls a small amount of power from both the herald and captain like 63, and has an interesting effect. Like perhaps a 10% melee dmg bonus to the herald for 5 seconds, and the skill is on a 10 or 15 second cool down. This would give a reason to trait into 5 yellow at the very least, by giving us another melee attack to use in our rotation and apply a buff to the herald.


    But so far i really like the ideas of heralds getting ancient dwarf westernesse or bell dmg, and i really like the idea of attacking them to specific heralds. this has some real potential i think to be a game changer on heralds dps, matching up with banners.
    Last edited by ydoc; Feb 28 2010 at 01:16 AM.

  11. Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Have we already run out of ideas on how to fix this, the most neglected and-in-need of help, of the trait lines?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000033326e/01008/signature.png]doronor[/charsig]

  12. #37

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    I like the idea of different armaments giving the herald different damage types, but would also be kinda cool if different armaments gave your herald different bonuses, like a +threat armament you could use to make herald a more useful offtank, or a "healing" armament to make his/her heal skill more powerful (would help make up for no strength from within), a DPS armament (I know, we have an archer already), etc.

    And just kinda heralds are generally kinda plain-looking, maybe visually upgrade them, using previous examples a threat/tank herald could have heavy armor and a large shield, DPS herald a nice big 2H axe, etc.

    Just an idea, would make heralds more useful IMO.
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  13. #38
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    This was posted by Orion today about the Book 1 Solo options that will soon be available. I think it applys to our dilemma as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by redwoodtreesprite View Post
    I am wondering about pets though. I have captains and loremasters, and have read that the pets do not get any buffs, so die very fast in the going solo versions. Is this going to be corrected?
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    For landscape areas, yes. The tech is just not there to transfer the ability to them as well...not yet.
    Edit: Did i forget to mention that Orion is a Dev =p
    Last edited by ydoc; Feb 28 2010 at 03:36 PM.

  14. #39
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Turbine needs to make our heralds not suck... so that when groups see us running with our heralds out, they don't go "USE A BANNER NOOB!!! LAWL!!!".

    I would hope that the capstone and relevant traits would bring the archer up to the DPS strength of the highest DPSing LM pet, with the herald putting out a decent (but not great) amount of damage, to compensate for having the group buff. I still think having the ghosty on the capstone is a good idea - mainly cause it's a nice piece of fluff.

    I like the Time of Need idea for the 4 trait bonus.

    Overall, the Leader of Men traits need to be focused and do one thing well

    I don't understand the hate for heralds. They bug out sometimes, which I admit is annoying, and their dps is pretty bad - but they make durable off tanks and can help you out a lot when soloing. Their pluses outweigh the negatives to me.

    There are some group situations where they may not be the best option, but overall the concept and game-play surrounding the herald is cool, and beats running around planting flags every few seconds - which I find lame and irritating. If you like it, fine - enjoy, but I don't.

    Best way to fix Leader of Men trait line is easy - just make the ghost herald a lot more powerful so that he can put out significant dps. Problem solved.

  15. #40

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    The fundamental problem with heralds in full groups is that they don't do anything that a banner doesn't do and they sometimes get you killed if you forget to keep an eye on where they are running to at all times.

    Yes, they can off tank normal mobs. Handy for solo. But normal mobs in 6 and 12 man content are trash the champion kills incidentally while he's doing something important. There's no way a herald will have aggro in a full group and if it did, it would be killed very quickly (depriving everyone of its buffs).
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0420800000004152b/01008/signature.png]Vormaerin[/charsig]

  16. #41
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vormaerin View Post
    The fundamental problem with heralds in full groups is that they don't do anything that a banner doesn't do and they sometimes get you killed if you forget to keep an eye on where they are running to at all times.

    Yes, they can off tank normal mobs. Handy for solo. But normal mobs in 6 and 12 man content are trash the champion kills incidentally while he's doing something important. There's no way a herald will have aggro in a full group and if it did, it would be killed very quickly (depriving everyone of its buffs).
    I love the sentence I bolded above. Made me laugh, man.

    ----------------------------

    As for pets not receiving Inspired Greatness, that really sucks for LMs, since their pets are pretty important to their soloing. Not a big deal for Captains, though - strap on your Banner of Hope or Banner of War, and roll through the content. Just like you would do solo, if you weren't so intent on making your little meatshield worth anything more than a sacrifice.

  17. #42
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vormaerin View Post
    The fundamental problem with heralds in full groups is that they don't do anything that a banner doesn't do and they sometimes get you killed if you forget to keep an eye on where they are running to at all times.

    Yes, they can off tank normal mobs. Handy for solo. But normal mobs in 6 and 12 man content are trash the champion kills incidentally while he's doing something important. There's no way a herald will have aggro in a full group and if it did, it would be killed very quickly (depriving everyone of its buffs).
    It's handy for more than just solo. It's useful in many group situations too. Your herald may not be off-tanking in 6 or 12 man raids, but there is a lot of group content in LOTRO where herald off-tanks are very useful. I would have never got through my Dol Dinen quests way back when for example if not for my herald. So their off-tanking does come in handy outside of a strictly solo experience.

    Also, if your herald dies then you can just throw down your banner, so it's not a big deal. This isn't to mention just the fact your herald saves you the migraine of having to plant a flag every few seconds is something in itself.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Feb 28 2010 at 04:31 PM.

  18. #43
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    I love the sentence I bolded above. Made me laugh, man.

    ----------------------------

    As for pets not receiving Inspired Greatness, that really sucks for LMs, since their pets are pretty important to their soloing. Not a big deal for Captains, though - strap on your Banner of Hope or Banner of War, and roll through the content. Just like you would do solo, if you weren't so intent on making your little meatshield worth anything more than a sacrifice.
    Well I can't speak for you, but I can solo content with my herald that I coudn't with my standard of hope or war equipped. So at least for me, it improves what I can do, and isn't just an equal alternative to using a standard.

    The passive increases from the standards are nice, but in no way enable me to simply "roll through the content". The herald time and time again proves more valuable to me than a little more damage and HP.

  19. #44
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Well I can't speak for you, but I can solo content with my herald that I coudn't with my standard of hope or war equipped. So at least for me, it improves what I can do, and isn't just an equal alternative to using a standard.

    The passive increases from the standards are nice, but in no way enable me to simply "roll through the content". The herald time and time again proves more valuable to me than a little more damage and HP.
    lol I have to agree with this, heralds offer so much more then a banner does.

    I have a really long post comparing the accurate bonus's/lackings of the whole Heralds Vs Banner argument. you can look at it here... http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=309603
    Last edited by ydoc; Feb 28 2010 at 05:58 PM.

  20. #45

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Also, if your herald dies then you can just throw down your banner, so it's not a big deal. This isn't to mention just the fact your herald saves you the migraine of having to plant a flag every few seconds is something in itself.
    Or you could just throw your banner down in the first place. :P The second comment is just a playstyle preference. One could just as easily say "using the banner saves you the migraine of micromanaging the pet hotbar to make the thing actually useful."

    Its not that heralds are worthless...though they come pretty close to that in raids, imho. Which, for better or worse, is the standard many use for value... its that for most people its too much hassle to get the full value out of them. That and the fact that all the traits associated with them are opaque and hard to judge the value of.
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  21. #46
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    I'm not trying to hate on the herald, as I've found great usage out of them - and use mine a lot solo.

    However, there are situations in group content when I really don't want to focus on keeping the herald alive IN ADDITION to my team mates, while doing minor DPS to boot.

    Looking at SG, the herald would probably do alright on the trash (so long as they don't activate a bone pile), might do OK on the first boss, pretty much dead on the second boss, a liability if not on passive/assist on the third boss, and basically toast on the fourth boss. Compared to a banner, which is dropped at the beginning of the fight, and maybe once more during the fight.

    After clearing several Moria and DG instances using a banner, you drop it a lot less than you think you would, probably around once every couple of minutes, roughly as often as an RK summons their rune stone - except that the banner doesn't draw agro like the rune stone does.

    Then comes the most glaring difference to me, the personal stats on the item itself. The banners are guaranteed to give us +10% morale and +10% damage. Combined with the other captain morale buffs, that's a huge chunk of morale (around a thousand from my experience). To me, this makes the banner/herald debate extremely lopsided towards the banner.

    This is why I would like to see some stats (maybe not +morale or +damage, but something different) on the armaments. The herald NEEDS help to make it studier in group content, so that it can essentially be kept alive by the captain spamming Rallying Cry.

    Since Leader of Men has the most herald traits out of all of the lines, it would be ideal if speccing down LoM would not only buff the herald and give it decent DPS for a pet, excellent for an archer, but also give the captain enough tricks that it makes it a valid raid choice for this line. There needs to be other alternatives to HoH for raid specs for captains.

  22. #47
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I'm not trying to hate on the herald, as I've found great usage out of them - and use mine a lot solo.

    However, there are situations in group content when I really don't want to focus on keeping the herald alive IN ADDITION to my team mates, while doing minor DPS to boot.

    [b]Looking at SG, the herald would probably do alright on the trash (so long as they don't activate a bone pile), might do OK on the first boss, pretty much dead on the second boss, a liability if not on passive/assist on the third boss, and basically toast on the fourth boss.[b/] Compared to a banner, which is dropped at the beginning of the fight, and maybe once more during the fight.

    After clearing several Moria and DG instances using a banner, you drop it a lot less than you think you would, probably around once every couple of minutes, roughly as often as an RK summons their rune stone - except that the banner doesn't draw agro like the rune stone does.

    Then comes the most glaring difference to me, the personal stats on the item itself. The banners are guaranteed to give us +10% morale and +10% damage. Combined with the other captain morale buffs, that's a huge chunk of morale (around a thousand from my experience). To me, this makes the banner/herald debate extremely lopsided towards the banner.

    This is why I would like to see some stats (maybe not +morale or +damage, but something different) on the armaments. The herald NEEDS help to make it studier in group content, so that it can essentially be kept alive by the captain spamming Rallying Cry.

    Since Leader of Men has the most herald traits out of all of the lines, it would be ideal if speccing down LoM would not only buff the herald and give it decent DPS for a pet, excellent for an archer, but also give the captain enough tricks that it makes it a valid raid choice for this line. There needs to be other alternatives to HoH for raid specs for captains.
    In response to the bolded part, I have done SG with Loyalty and Precise ally slotted. And this is how it went.

    I used Power Herald for 1st boss he did not die or take dmg from the fire.

    I used Archer herald for the2nd boss and on a different attempt I used Power Herald on the 2nd boss. The herald is completely unaffected by the lightning and can dps the boss without issue.

    3rd boss I used Power herald no issues he did not die but he was taking minimal dmg.

    4th boss, Archer herald caused some problems with placing he was standing in the way of the flow of bones i fixed that easy enough and he was completely uneffected by the green flames.

    I should have parsed it but i didn't I don't really know how much dps the herald added to the fight. I know at least for the second boss he did more dmg then me which was none i was in the corner healing the hunters.
    Last edited by ydoc; Mar 01 2010 at 06:13 AM.

  23. #48
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vormaerin View Post
    Or you could just throw your banner down in the first place. :P The second comment is just a playstyle preference. One could just as easily say "using the banner saves you the migraine of micromanaging the pet hotbar to make the thing actually useful."

    Its not that heralds are worthless...though they come pretty close to that in raids, imho. Which, for better or worse, is the standard many use for value... its that for most people its too much hassle to get the full value out of them. That and the fact that all the traits associated with them are opaque and hard to judge the value of.
    Well I personally enjoy commanding my herald. That is what Captains are suppose to do anyway - command things. We are captains.

    But if you dislike giving orders simply put your pet on passive, then he/she will just follow you around and do nothing. Basicaly a mobile banner, so I don't get what causes the migraine.

    The standard doesn't move with you. You have to put it down again everytime your group moves. This is annoying. That is time i could be spending doing something else, not to mention it is equally annoying how the max power and health bonuses often time go to waste because when you put the banner down it doesn't fill the bars. With a herald this isnt' the case, as they move with the group and everyone retains their full benefits while on the move.

    There are some instances where the standard > than the herald, but they are far and few between in my opinion. I really don't care for standards....at all. I think they were a lame unimaginative addition to the Captain, and would much rather see heralds tweaked and improved.

  24. #49
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    There are some instances where the standard > than the herald, but they are far and few between in my opinion. I really don't care for standards....at all. I think they were a lame unimaginative addition to the Captain, and would much rather see heralds tweaked and improved.
    QFT

    I hated Standards when they came out, I felt it was a cop out move for a pet class. I still hate standards >.> lol. But for certain fights they give no dps whatsoever, in fact the blind one and the mistress both 100% immune to common dmg altogether lol.

  25. #50
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Well for the record, I hate the pet.

    I am a banner lover . But seriously I think everything should have choices. Clearly the hearld needs some love because he is not a choice, but once you solve speccing him, I liked the idea focused on improving skills. The point being if you make SB better it helps a herald or it help a fs member. That is a choice. Give me things that make me choose.
    ****************************
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