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  1. #126
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    3,203

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    In all seriousness, I would love to hear about these things that herald- or archer-using Captains can do that banner-using Captains can't. I'll even start:

    1) My herald can be used as an aggro sacrifice to a bunch of mobs so that I can grab a quest item and run away without having to fight my way to it. My banner cannot.

    2) ...?

    (Edit: Oh, and I'm also interested in hearing about the "great many" situations in which a banner is not the optimal choice.)
    My archer (and warrior and Candaith) can mow down the baddies at Amon Sul while I hit the snooze bar? Archer is quite nice in skirmishes if you trait for it. Archer is also nice set to aggro everything if grinding below level deeds in an area with lots of targets. Also good for harvesting hides, say, pristine hides in the bear loop in evendim. Is that a few good reasons? I agree I mostly use my banner in PvE though.

  2. #127
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    2,135

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    In all seriousness, I would love to hear about these things that herald- or archer-using Captains can do that banner-using Captains can't. I'll even start:

    1) My herald can be used as an aggro sacrifice to a bunch of mobs so that I can grab a quest item and run away without having to fight my way to it. My banner cannot.

    2) ...?

    (Edit: Oh, and I'm also interested in hearing about the "great many" situations in which a banner is not the optimal choice.)
    I could write you a book of situations I have found the archer and herald to be of more beneift than banners, but I'll just limit it to two. And i'll give a general one, which can be applied throughout the game, and then a detailed one so you can't accuse me of being non-specific. I'll use Urugarth as the example area since that's where I'm deeding at currently.

    1. (General)You will generate more damage with your archer out than you will with your banner of war equipped. So basically anytime you want to put out more damage on something where survivalblity is not an issue it is the better choice.
    (Specific)I enter Urugarth and just want to kill the group of goblins as quickly as I can. Therefore I summon my archer, put her on aggressive, throw her the crit buff and let her loose on them. That way they die as quickly as possible after I attack them. Therefore, it was the "optimal choice".

    2. (General)Anytime you are up against multiple strong elites or couples of boss monsters where surivial is an issue, the Herald of Hope is your best choice. It makes for a very durable off-tank and will save you far more HP than ever your banner could.
    (Specific)I go to pull a large group of elite orcs in Ugurarth. 1 Lutinent, 2 Warriors, and a Sentry. Knowing there is no way I can live through all four attacking me at once, I smartly summon my Herald of Hope, throw Sheild of Dunedain on him and send him after the lutinent, the strongest of the group. While my Herald keeps them at bay I taunt the warrior, kill him - then take out the other two while my Herald keeps the lutinent busy. This pull would not have been possible using a banner, therefore it was the "optimal" choice.

    And just to prove to you I am not bias against banners, i'll give you an example (general and specific) to where banners are best.

    1. (General)Basically anytime you are up against a strong single enemey. Banners almost always prove more useful in these situations, especially if the boss has powerful area or frontal attacks, as they will kill your herald/archer or split your focus to the point it becomes more of a nuisance than an asset.
    (Specific)Halls of Crafting, last boss. Using your archer or herald in this fight is pretty pointless since the strong AOE will decimate your archer and you are better off receiving the passive bonuses of your banner to help you take down the boss quicker while expanding your own morale total. So this is one fight where the banner would be "Optimal".

    As I said, there is no one optimal choice for Captains, and banners are not always the best option. They have their place, as do Heralds and Archers, but to neglect one or the other in the belief one is "optimal" is actually holding you back.. All are good, and all have their place. By saying you prefer to use banners exclusively in the belief this makes you optimal is actually limiting what your captain is capable of. Archers and heralds are good for so much more than just keeping monsters busy while you snag quest items, and you are really missing out.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 09 2010 at 02:23 PM.

  3. #128
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    4,405

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    I could write you a book of situations I have found the archer and herald to be of more beneift than banners, but I'll just limit it to two. And i'll give a general one, which can be applied throughout the game, and then a detailed one so you can't accuse me of being non-specific. I'll use Urugarth as the example area since that's where I'm deeding at currently.

    1. (General)You will generate more damage with your archer out than you will with your banner of war equipped. So basically anytime you want to put out more damage on something where survivalblity is not an issue it is the better choice.
    (Specific)I enter Urugarth and just want to kill the group of goblins as quickly as I can. Therefore I summon my archer, put her on aggressive, throw her the crit buff and let her loose on them. That way they die as quickly as possible after I attack them. Therefore, it was the "optimal choice".

    2. (General)Anytime you are up against multiple strong elites or couples of boss monsters where surivial is an issue, the Herald of Hope is your best choice. It makes for a very durable off-tank and will save you far more HP than ever your banner could.
    (Specific)I go to pull a large group of elite orcs in Ugurarth. 1 Lutinent, 2 Will Breakers, and a Sentry. Knowing there is no way I can live through all four attacking me at once, I smartly summon my Herald of Hope, throw Sheild of Dunedain on him and send him after the lutinent, the strongest of the group. While my Herald keeps them at bay I taunt the will breaker, kill him - then take out the other two while my Herald keeps the lutinent busy. This pull would not have been possible using a banner, therefore it was the "optimal" choice.

    And just to prove to you I am not bias against banners, i'll give you an example (general and specific) to where banners are best.

    1. (General)Basically anytime you are up against a strong single enemey. Banners almost always prove more useful in these situations, especially if the boss has powerful area or frontal attacks, as they will kill your herald/archer or split your focus to the point it becomes more of a nuisance than an asset.
    (Specific)Halls of Crafting, last boss. Using your archer or herald in this fight is pretty pointless since the strong AOE will decimate your archer and you are better off receiving the passive bonuses of your banner to help you take down the boss quicker while expanding your own morale total. So this is one fight where the banner would be "Optimal".

    As I said, there is no one optimal choice for Captains, and banners are not always the best option. They have their place, as do Heralds and Archers, but to neglect one or the other in the belief one is "optimal" is actually holding you back.. All are good, and all have their place. By saying you prefer to use banners exclusively in the belief this makes you optimal is actually limiting what your captain is capable of. Archers and heralds are good for so much more than just keeping monsters busy while you snag quest items, and you are really missing out.
    Are you doing this stuff in Uru while you're around level 50? Or are you 65? I'll concede that a herald put on aggressive does make clearing below-level deeds go faster - I did the same w/my Captain at 60 when I was working on virtues. Summon WoodyHayes (ghost herald) or JohnnyArcher (ghost archer) and let them go to town. If the mobs are low enough level and respawn quickly enough, I can even go afk and let the herald do the work.

    If you're doing Uru with all the mobs being grey to you, then please allow me to risk being accused of "moving the goalposts". I'm more interested in how a herald can be better than a banner when doing on-level content.

    Also, it looks like you mentioned (and I was looking for) things that a herald-using captain can do that a banner-wielding captain cannot. Again, if we're talking about grey-conned Uru mobs, I'm pretty sure that I can handle either herald-specific situation that you described while I have my usual Banner of Hope equipped and planted. The first easily (since survivability is not an issue) and the second probably with little difficulty as well, since a HoH Captain is pretty hard to kill.

    If you're talking about doing this stuff in Uru while you're level 50ish, then that's a different story, of course.

  4. #129
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    2,135

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    Are you doing this stuff in Uru while you're around level 50? Or are you 65? I'll concede that a herald put on aggressive does make clearing below-level deeds go faster - I did the same w/my Captain at 60 when I was working on virtues. Summon WoodyHayes (ghost herald) or JohnnyArcher (ghost archer) and let them go to town. If the mobs are low enough level and respawn quickly enough, I can even go afk and let the herald do the work.

    If you're doing Uru with all the mobs being grey to you, then please allow me to risk being accused of "moving the goalposts". I'm more interested in how a herald can be better than a banner when doing on-level content.

    Also, it looks like you mentioned (and I was looking for) things that a herald-using captain can do that a banner-wielding captain cannot. Again, if we're talking about grey-conned Uru mobs, I'm pretty sure that I can handle either herald-specific situation that you described while I have my usual Banner of Hope equipped and planted. The first easily (since survivability is not an issue) and the second probably with little difficulty as well, since a HoH Captain is pretty hard to kill.

    If you're talking about doing this stuff in Uru while you're level 50ish, then that's a different story, of course.
    I was fighting solo in Urugarth since my mid to upper 50's. I'm still fighting there at my current level (61) because I still have a couple of deeds there I want to finish. Grey monsters still give you virtures afterall, plus i'm weird and like to finish all my deeds.

    But even at 65, which i'm not yet - I could probably find some pulls in Urugarth you could not do without your herald. And if it's true there, then it is true in other places also - especially considering they would be grey to you - which would only strength my point. If you need the herald for big pulls against grey monsters, then of course you will need them for pulls against non-grey ones.

    And I mistyped the situation in my earlier post. The pull I was referring to included two warrior uruks, not two will breaker orcs. Basically the pull right before going across the bridge to lagmas. I corrected it in my earlier post. Will-breakers are quite a bit easier than the warrior uruks.

    Now if you can do that pull without your herald out and using a banner instead, my hat is off to you, but I don't see how it could be done. I'll try it when I hit 65 to test what you say, but at my current level (61) I can't do it with a banner, and need my herald out. I also needed my herald out to defeat the goblin boss who summons adds, as I tired it with my banner and died, but do it comfortably with my herald. I also couldn't do the pull with the healing orc boss, troll, will breaker, and the warrior with the banner, and had to make use of my herald to win that as well. The number of pulls I could relate that I have been unable to do with banner but can do with my herald are countless, and I could name you many. Heralds have been helpling me down difficult pulls starting way back in my days of Agamar and Dol Dinin.

    Again - my basic point is this. A Captain using a herald instead of a banner CAN do a great many things the other cannot do. That has been my firm experience since I stepped into my first instance. But who knows, maybe i just suck at using banners - though I don't know how, considering all you do is stick it in the ground then spam muster courage. That seems to be the extent of banner-related strategy.

    Go try that pull in Urugarth without using your herald and see if you can down it at your level. If you can - I will go look for another specific pull to test your banner captain ^^ I'm sure i can find one that you will need your herald for.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Apr 09 2010 at 02:46 PM.

  5. #130
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1,651

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    In all seriousness, I would love to hear about these things that herald- or archer-using Captains can do that banner-using Captains can't. I'll even start:

    ....
    OK, I'll agree that the Banner is a better choice for 90% of solo content, and 99% of group content. But, a captain with an archer buffed with Precision and Loyalty does more damage than a captain in LtC. Also, a well buffed herald of hope has something like 5 to 6 thousand moral. SO, a few things you can do with them:

    1) You can kite master elites while your archer kills them. One Captain soloed the Grand Stairs final boss (at level 60) using his Archer.

    2) When defending a point you can plant your archer or herald on aggressive in order to draw incoming mobs. Works great in the Midnight Raid. I position myself, my archer, and another player around the central bonfire while our third member runs around and burns tents. The hordes of mobs never get to the bonfire.

    3) When running 3-man content solo, the Herald of hope is more than capable of tanking a boss while you clean up adds, and you can heal it far better than you can heal yourself.
    Last edited by SGWB; Apr 09 2010 at 04:35 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000003071/01008/signature.png]Kalbarad[/charsig]

 

 
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