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  1. #1
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    Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    As suggested in the Lead the Charge thread, a seperate one for Leader of Men. Since I am full of "good" ideas, I have a few to get the ball rolling.

    First, the major problem with this trait line is that it lacks a purpose. It's a mishmash of traits that were pretty much what was leftover from the other trait lines when they got consolidated. Even the Trait Line bonuses are all over the place.

    So the first step here seems to be to figure out what the traits in this line do, and whether any of them need to get tossed, wholesale.

    A little bit of nosing around gives us the following breakdown of traits:

    Buffing/Group improvement:
    Captain of War
    Captain's Victory
    Tactical Prowess

    Pet Improvement:
    Loyalty
    Precise Ally

    Who the heck knows/Panic buttons:
    Defiance
    Blood of Numenor
    Composure

    The first two categories synergize fairly well in theory, since a captain + a pet is kinda like a group. This breaks down a bit in that most captains don't actually USE their pets in groups. The third category, meanwhile, doesn't really seem to fit well at all. Defiance is a nice trait, but not particularly group oriented, Blood of Numenor is obviously group oriented but is a rez trait, so ends up doing nothing a lot of the time. Composure, IMHO, is just a weak trait, and is used essentially only for being able to reset Cry of Vengeance.

    It seems like the theoretical goal of this trait set must have been in line with the name - a captain who wants not to Lead the Charge Personally, or spend all his time healing, but instead to direct his allies to great deeds. The problem is that a lot of he traits don't really synergize well with that at all. This leaves us two tasks that we really need to accomplish - bringing together the "pet" side of things with the "group" side of things, and just generally improving the benefits of this line to make it worth traiting over the others - ideally, this is what a captain in a fellowship that doesn't need him to be healing too much SHOULD be traiting. (As opposed to small fellowship or solo captains, who in theory should be running Lead the Charge)

    First, lets go over individual Traits. We'll start with the ones that play to what this trait line is supposed to do.

    Captain of War: This one is on the right track. It's a bonus that is kinda okay with a couple of people, but scales up pretty nicely to a full fellowship. The bonus could probably stand to be bumped from 15% to 20% though.

    Captain's Victory: This one isn't a perfect fit, but it's not bad. It's kinda the "Well, War goes with Lead the Charge and Hope goes with Healing, so I guess Leader of Men gets the Other Improved Banner." It's a decent trait, but victory isn't really a 'useful all the time' kind of banner. This should be improved to add +Tactical damage and possibly +healing, which is an area where Captains are weak in terms of group support. That would make Improved Standard of Victory a powerful offering in most situations.

    Tactical Prowess: I'm personally not a huge fan of this one, but some people seem to like it. It's not a 'group' benefit, but it does require a Shield Brother, which means it fits in here. Perhaps just bumping it up to +10s would be good.

    Now that's the 'core' functionality of the line. Now we have the pet stuff:

    Loyalty and Precise Ally are both pretty decent traits for what they do. The problem here is that A) A lot of captains perceive our pets as being too weak or too much work (Partly because pets scale poorly) and B) Captains often don't use pets in groups. Neither of these traits needs tuning, but our pets overall need some sort of adjustment if these traits are to fit in with a 'grouping' trait line - a pet related set bonus at 3 or 4 might work, as would improving the capstone trait significantly. Simply increasing the baseline DPS of our herald would be a big step in the right direction and start making the "Herald vs Banner" debate more of a debate.

    That leaves us with the "other" traits.

    Defiance is a very solid trait. It modifies a very good skill that gets used in all kinds of circumstances. I would modify the Heal-on-expiry to scale better though. At level 65 getting back 400 morale when Last Stand ends isn't really worth mentioning. Maybe 20morale/level as the heal would be good there.

    Blood of Numenor is nice, but too specific in utilization. It really improves one skill, but that one skill is a revive, which is rather selective in use. As a result, I think this trait needs some additional bonus to make it worth having the -rest- of the time. (i.e. during all those times when you DON'T need to rez someone). Since this already has powerful (but specialized) group utility, maybe something simple like +2 ICPR/Level would help? ICPR also seems more in line with the Trait name than the current function.

    Composure: Okay. Frankly, I think this one is a mess. In no small part because the underlying skill that it modifies is so shoddy (I'll be honest. The only time I use Time of Need is BEFORE a fight. I can hit it, use war cry, regen my morale out of combat relatively fast, and go in with the attack speed bonus). If we want to keep it as some sort of Time of Need modifying trait, it needs to be pretty strong, and give powerful group utility. I have lots of ideas for this, but none of them -really- have the effect I'd like. Some possibilities include:

    Changes Time of Need to In the Final Hour: Removes the morale Cost from Time of Need, but it can only be used when below 50% Morale. In the Final Hour will also reset cooldowns on cries etc.

    Add a "song of aid" sort of effect, so that a Composure'd Time of Need also unlocks gated skills for the fellowship for a few seconds.


    So that's traits. Now we need to look at set bonuses:

    2 Traits: Reduced Mark Cooldown. This one is JUST FINE. In fact, right now it's one of the best things this line has going for it. Good group utility, even handy while solo. Thumbs up.

    3 Traits: -15% Shield brother skill power cost. I've gone on the record before as saying I think this bonus -sucks-. It doesn't even fit in very well with this trait line, since two of the three Shield Brother skills are HEALING skills. Scrap this wholesale. This would be a good place to put in some pet boosting, or, alternatively some sort of group/shield brother boosting capabilities - maybe in keeping with our new level 64 skill, this could add some damage bonuses to our Shield Brother.

    4 Traits: 10% Chance for kick to start a fellowship maneuver? What kind of garbage is this? I realize they're trying to go for some way of giving us fellowship maneuvers (group synergy again) without stepping on Burglars' toes too badly. Fine. Time of Need now initiates a Fellowship Maneuver on your target. Presto. Time of Need sucks less, Composure gets better by association, and even the legacies for Time of Need become more valuable.

    Alternatively, my other idea for the 4 trait set bonus was to give a 10% chance for Shield Brother skills to affect the whole fellowship. So every once in a while you'd heal the group with inspire, or To arms the whole group, or Strength of Will the whole group. Seems sexy to me.

    Capstone: Master of Oaths. This one is sadly the greatest joke in the whole line. The Oathbreaker Armaments do functionally nothing, and the actual bonus for the trait appears to be tiny. The first step in fixing this trait is to make it DO what it says on the label and give our heralds and archers "greatly increased offensive and defensive abilities.". We're talking like 50% more damage here, and a big ol' chunk of morale even if we're unwilling to improve their mitigation any further. But that's just step 1. For this to be a Legendary trait, it needs to be better than just a big pet boost. Here's a good chance to apply some extra loving. Any sorts of good group bonuses would be nice here. Sky's the limit. 5% run speed for the group? Sure. +1% BPE for the group? Okay. +5% more attack speed on War Cry? That's fine. Just pick a couple of good, meaningful, group affecting bonuses and add them on here.

    That's my first draft. Pick it apart, folks.
    Last edited by mpureka; Feb 25 2010 at 09:06 PM.

  2. #2

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Far too long of a post to dissect atm, but two basic things- the 3 & 4-trait bonus are indeed a joke. I cannot remember where, but there was a dev response saying Master of Oaths is being improved significantly.

    Also, I've long held the opinion that Captain of War, Tactical Prowess, Composure, and Blood of Numenor should all be made passive and replaced with pet and fellowship-buff traits (as all fellowship buffs sans IDOME affect heralds as well).

    As for the 4-trait bonus being changed to a small chance (needs to be a lot smaller than 10%) to apply SB buffs to the whole fellow, brilliant.

    As is, LoM works, it just doesn't work that well and a lot of the time you have to grab straws for the last trait.

    One last thing.... FOR THE SANITY OF CAPTAINS EVERYWHERE, GIVE US HIGHER LEVEL ARMAMENTS!

  3. #3
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Turbine needs to make our heralds not suck... so that when groups see us running with our heralds out, they don't go "USE A BANNER NOOB!!! LAWL!!!".

    I would hope that the capstone and relevant traits would bring the archer up to the DPS strength of the highest DPSing LM pet, with the herald putting out a decent (but not great) amount of damage, to compensate for having the group buff. I still think having the ghosty on the capstone is a good idea - mainly cause it's a nice piece of fluff.

    I like the Time of Need idea for the 4 trait bonus.

    Overall, the Leader of Men traits need to be focused and do one thing well
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  4. #4

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    It is sort of the "umm, we don't have any other place for these traits" drop zone.

    The core problem is the 3rd and 4th tier line bonuses are close to useless and heralds/archers are problematic in groups. The traits aren't individually bad, though I can't think of five I'd prefer over the alternatives.

    Blood of Numenor is the only one that jumps out at me saying "make me better, please".

    I don't think Composure needs to be boosted. I think Time of Need does.

  5. #5
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Well... why is it that LM pets are "not problematic" in groups, yet captain's herald/archers "are problematic"?

    A minion's a minion... why is there that distinction?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  6. #6
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Well... why is it that LM pets are "not problematic" in groups, yet captain's herald/archers "are problematic"?

    A minion's a minion... why is there that distinction?
    I don't think it's really the case of anyone's pet's being "problematic" in groups. I think the difference is primarily:

    Loremaster Pets are a bit more durable
    Loremaster Pets, if they die, all that happens is the LM loses whatever benefits were being provided. A dead herald costs the whole group a buff.
    Loremasters don't have any alternative - if they want the benefits of their pets, they have to have their pets, they can't cheat and use a banner.

  7. #7
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Well... why is it that LM pets are "not problematic" in groups, yet captain's herald/archers "are problematic"?

    A minion's a minion... why is there that distinction?
    If I had to guess...

    1) LMs rely a lot more on their pets than captains do, and so most of them probably know how to actually control their pets.

    2) A few LM pets give nice group bonuses: Raven/Shadow Mit., Eagle/ICPR; Bear/mob armor debuff.

    "But wait, don't Captain heralds give bonuses as well?"

    3) Yes, but they give the same bonuses that a Banner does, and a Banner doesn't move all over the place, making it easier to keep your people within range of the buff.

    "I can just make my herald stand in one place, then!"

    4) Sure. But if you're going to do that, why not use the banner and get yourself an extra 10-20% morale, power, or damage?

    That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more reasons.

  8. #8

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Durability and the existance of alternatives. If there were no banners, people would suck it up and use a herald. They'd just learn not to rely on the buff because it would get AoE'ed out of existance at some crucial point anyway.

    LM pets are functionally just an unreliable DoT in groups. They go around doing damage somewhere until they are dead and, usually, no one notices when it happens. When 800 max morale or 300 ICPR vanish from everyone, people notice. Since you can make that not happen AND make the captain better at the same time, heralds just lose out in a big way in groups.

  9. #9
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vormaerin View Post
    Durability and the existance of alternatives. If there were no banners, people would suck it up and use a herald. They'd just learn not to rely on the buff because it would get AoE'ed out of existance at some crucial point anyway.

    LM pets are functionally just an unreliable DoT in groups. They go around doing damage somewhere until they are dead and, usually, no one notices when it happens. When 800 max morale or 300 ICPR vanish from everyone, people notice. Since you can make that not happen AND make the captain better at the same time, heralds just lose out in a big way in groups.
    Sooo.... if the herald could be buffed so they didn't die as often, then it would be ok to use a herald.

    On that note.... I think heralds would return if Turbine made recipes for the higher level armaments that have buffs on them. Not necessarily the same as the banner, but something different, they roughly equal.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  10. #10
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Sooo.... if the herald could be buffed so they didn't die as often, then it would be ok to use a herald.

    On that note.... I think heralds would return if Turbine made recipes for the higher level armaments that have buffs on them. Not necessarily the same as the banner, but something different, they roughly equal.
    how about higher lvl armaments having a dmg buff that applys to the herald itself.

    and on the note of cheating useing banners. I never liked the idea of banners I felt it was a cop out for pet class. Captain was a pet class for a long time before banners came out i don't know why turbine listened to the few whiners that could not control there pets.

    Tactical Prowess: suggestion, This trait goes unused mostly because there is a weapon legacy which is better and increases it for longer then this trait. My suggest would be to remove the legacy and up the trait bonus. or make the trait bonus 15 seconds and the LI 10
    Last edited by ydoc; Feb 26 2010 at 02:53 AM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    The armaments need to have a buff for the captain, otherwise, we're still going to feel like we're losing something when we use the armaments instead of the banners.

    It needs not be a "one buffs me, the other doesn't" situation, but rather an "apples or oranges" decision.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  12. #12

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    My question for LoM since MoM beta has been:

    You designed it as a solo build so we can have a stronger pet (who still can't tank for us..)

    But it has group-oriented set bonuses. Which is it?!

    All of the Captain trait sets need to be refocused- except probably Hands of Healing. But I won't get into the "HoH is OP, comparatively" discussion here.


    I like the idea of ToN creating a CJ on our target instead of the kick CJ chance.

    Honestly, I have actually used the kick CJ in group, to very little effect. More often than not, I end up wasting it trying for a FM and miss something that I should have interrupted. The fact that it's only a 10% chance for a 1m base skill (30s with legacy) makes it sort of like a joke. It's an added bonus to a skill you may not ordinarily use in some situations (like Uru/CD for example) but it's so minimal that it's still ineffective and practically worthless.


    Love the idea of making several of the "line" bonuses PASSIVE and replacing the traits with something more beneficial.

    The capstone needs a serious revision as well.

  13. #13
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingsmidgens View Post
    My question for LoM since MoM beta has been:

    You designed it as a solo build so we can have a stronger pet (who still can't tank for us..)

    But it has group-oriented set bonuses. Which is it?!

    All of the Captain trait sets need to be refocused- except probably Hands of Healing. But I won't get into the "HoH is OP, comparatively" discussion here.
    This is where we start. Just as LtC now struggles with it's identity much less the skills and traits, is it dps or is it tanking, LoM does not have a clear focus.

    My take is buffs be they herald, sb, or party, as that is in keeping with the name, Leader of Men (sorry ladies ).

    Now again I am a big believer in choices, so scale the banners and make the heralds in line with LM pets. For this line the power banner just needs icpr and maybe a crit buff (not really for damage but for defeat responses). Any healing buff should go to the morale banner and any damage buffs should go to the war banner.

    As for specific comments most ideas are fairly good. Blood of Numenor and Defiance both need heavy revamps.

    Now for the trait bonuses...

    3Y- Lets really buff the SB. Like you said give us damage and all

    4Y- I love the idea of a small chance the party recieves the sb bonuses.

    Capstone- Fix it or change it. Insulting now.

    Thanks for the work .

  14. #14

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Its pretty important to define the objectives in a goal like this. Are we trying to suggest ways to make this a raid build worthy trait line or just less of a mess for the solo/small fellow types that mainly use it now? The first requires a wholescale revision and upgrade in power. The other just requires some tweaks.

    As far as Shield brother goes, we do have a little boost coming to that on Monday.

  15. #15
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vormaerin View Post
    Its pretty important to define the objectives in a goal like this. Are we trying to suggest ways to make this a raid build worthy trait line or just less of a mess for the solo/small fellow types that mainly use it now? The first requires a wholescale revision and upgrade in power. The other just requires some tweaks.

    As far as Shield brother goes, we do have a little boost coming to that on Monday.
    Well To be honest there is no way to fix this trait line to be raid viable short of taking banners out of the game. The moment banners were put in captains have an alternative which means raid leaders expect us to use it. Lore masters have no alternative so they are allowed pets in raids.

    But my guess would be tweaks to make it more viable in solo 3 and 6 man content. Turbine has been making some raid boss's immune to common dmg and our heralds are 100% common dmg.

    Edit* i think i got it =O Make the capstone give heralds Westerness or ancient dwarf type dmg for useing the capstone this would be a real bonus that would not be over powered and would have lasting effects on our pet line.
    Last edited by ydoc; Feb 26 2010 at 06:44 AM.

  16. #16
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    Well To be honest there is no way to fix this trait line to be raid viable short of taking banners out of the game. The moment banners were put in captains have an alternative which means raid leaders expect us to use it. Lore masters have no alternative so they are allowed pets in raids.

    But my guess would be tweaks to make it more viable in solo 3 and 6 man content. Turbine has been making some raid boss's immune to common dmg and our heralds are 100% common dmg.

    Edit* i think i got it =O Make the capstone give heralds Westerness or ancient dwarf type dmg for useing the capstone this would be a real bonus that would not be over powered and would have lasting effects on our pet line.
    Here's a thought.... make the armaments choose the damage type, but leave it inactive until the capstone trait is slotted.

    So:
    Oathbreakers & Elves: Beleriand
    Race of Men: Westerness
    Dwarves: Ancient Dwarf

    There also needs to be a stat buff on the armament for the captain, so it lessens the difference between the armament and the banner.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

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  17. #17
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Here's a thought.... make the armaments choose the damage type, but leave it inactive until the capstone trait is slotted.

    So:
    Oathbreakers & Elves: Beleriand
    Race of Men: Westerness
    Dwarves: Ancient Dwarf

    There also needs to be a stat buff on the armament for the captain, so it lessens the difference between the armament and the banner.
    like to see an idea rolling, maybe even make some hard to get armaments and put them in 6 man chests or raids, or the recipe for them. Like a Ghost that does shadow dmg.

  18. #18
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    like to see an idea rolling, maybe even make some hard to get armaments and put them in 6 man chests or raids, or the recipe for them. Like a Ghost that does shadow dmg.
    Lossoth herald would be an excellent candidate for west + frost damage.
    Also, a (new) Galadhrim herald would be a good choice for bel + orc damage

    If we have loot only heralds, recipe should be single use.... we want them rare... not common.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

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  19. #19
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Lossoth herald would be an excellent candidate for west + frost damage.
    Also, a (new) Galadhrim herald would be a good choice for bel + orc damage

    If we have loot only heralds, recipe should be single use.... we want them rare... not common.
    I like your thinking, + rep if i could give it =p darn restrictions.

    Edit: Thought of another one, Since our Strength from within has gotten so many buffs lately. Perhaps one of our not useful yellow traits could improve the herald heal.
    Last edited by ydoc; Feb 26 2010 at 08:38 AM.

  20. #20
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Here's a thought.... make the armaments choose the damage type, but leave it inactive until the capstone trait is slotted.

    So:
    Oathbreakers & Elves: Beleriand
    Race of Men: Westerness
    Dwarves: Ancient Dwarf

    There also needs to be a stat buff on the armament for the captain, so it lessens the difference between the armament and the banner.
    Quite coming up with all the great ideas.. you are making the rest of us look bad .

  21. Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Some very interesting ideas here. I would love to see heralds upgraded and made more useful... and yet...

    If I am doing group work (whether it is duo, three man, six man, raid...), I am not going to be shield-brothering my pet, no matter how upgraded she is. I am going to be shield brothering either a dps fellowship member or a tank. So if LoM is basically about an upgraded pet, it will be a solo line. I don't have any problem with this per se, but it means it will always be the step child of our lines. From my perspective, significantly buffing the herald, while nice, is not going to make a lot of difference and so the question I have is how can we make this line more useful for grouping.

    The other problem is the weakness of the traits themselves

    The one's that I have used for group work:

    Fairly frequently
    Tactical Prowess
    Defiance

    Once in a blue moon
    Captain's Victory
    Composure

    That's four. And when I say I use the last two infrequently, I mean *really* infrequently.

    Solo I frequently use:

    Loyalty
    Precise Ally

    Nothing else

    So how do we make this a line that is worth going deep in, either for grouping or solo. With so many weakish traits, it would take some remarkable trait line boosts to make me think about it.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000033326e/01008/signature.png]doronor[/charsig]

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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by anaraion View Post
    Quite coming up with all the great ideas.. you are making the rest of us look bad .
    I am totally going to sleep, so please guys enough with the sarcastic comments and non productive arguments about useless facts. When I wake up I expect to see suggestions and conversation between brain stormers on viable ways to fix both lines 5r and 5y we have threads for both.

    And anaraion I know I come of harsh when I post but you always seem to maintain a happy disposition in your posts almost all of them, and even the trolls don't get you down keep it up.

  23. #23

    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    What everyone seems to forget, myself included since Im a banner jock, is that the captain banner pets also provide us a self heal.

  24. #24
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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelofDth View Post
    What everyone seems to forget, myself included since Im a banner jock, is that the captain banner pets also provide us a self heal.
    I don't forget it. I remember constantly that the heal from Strength from Within can be used 3-5 times more often (Depending on your Muster Courage cooldown Legacy) and heals for nearly as much once you factor in the fact that the Strength from Within heal is modified by the captain's +healing gear, and the Lend Will heal is not.

    It would be nice to see Lend Will increased in magnitude a LOT (Like 2x or so) to represent the fact that we are giving up the chance to use the SfW heal, and the fact that it costs the herald morale, so diminishes their offtanking ability as well. It would also be very nice to see a reduced Lend Will cooldown somewhere in the list.

    My goals for this line, I thought I laid out pretty clearly: It's to make it a good line for grouping or small fellows by increasing the groups' power/damage output. Lead the Charge is our "self improvement" line, Hands of Healing is our Healing line, so Leader of Men should be our group synergy line (non healing.) Improving pets enough to make them a viable choice in groups is a secondary objective (one that is better off being performed seperately, for the most part, though some of that bonus can be built into this trait line - so long as it's a good/acceptable choice for a captain 3-4 traits deep in this line to run with a pet in a group if he wants.) because making pets viable in a group both A) Increases the number of 'members' in a group to benefit from group wide effects and B) Increases the "captain as a small group all by himself" feeling you get when running skirmishes with a herald/archer.

    So it's a little bit up in the air for me where the pet improvements need to come from - I think at least _some_ of it should be innate, or that there should be new, higher level armaments that improve us/the pets in ways other than armor factor, but I also feel there should be a couple of places in the set bonuses for this line (My personal leaning is 3 and 5) where a pet boost is applied. It should not be the SOLE bonus of those those traits, and in fact, it should be a relatively small part of the capstone trait, but it should be there.

    Are people mostly in agreement about the proposed changes to traits, at least?

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    Re: Leader of Men: How do we fix it.

    Quote Originally Posted by seyahat View Post
    Some very interesting ideas here. I would love to see heralds upgraded and made more useful... and yet...

    If I am doing group work (whether it is duo, three man, six man, raid...), I am not going to be shield-brothering my pet, no matter how upgraded she is. I am going to be shield brothering either a dps fellowship member or a tank. So if LoM is basically about an upgraded pet, it will be a solo line. I don't have any problem with this per se, but it means it will always be the step child of our lines. From my perspective, significantly buffing the herald, while nice, is not going to make a lot of difference and so the question I have is how can we make this line more useful for grouping.

    The other problem is the weakness of the traits themselves

    The one's that I have used for group work:

    Fairly frequently
    Tactical Prowess
    Defiance

    Once in a blue moon
    Captain's Victory
    Composure

    That's four. And when I say I use the last two infrequently, I mean *really* infrequently.

    Solo I frequently use:

    Loyalty
    Precise Ally

    Nothing else

    So how do we make this a line that is worth going deep in, either for grouping or solo. With so many weakish traits, it would take some remarkable trait line boosts to make me think about it.
    Solid point here - if the trait line just buffs the herald, it's still useless in groups. If it gives very significant buffs to the SB, or greater buffs to the group as a whole, then it might be viable.

    Quick note to you, seyahat - you left out Captain of War, which is probably the best trait in that line (for grouping).

 

 
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