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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    477

    Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Random thought random question.

    Keep seeing new names of new kinships. Obviously people feel there is a need for them.

    Is there a point at which players are spread out so thinly among so many kinships that kinships might need to think about combining?


    "Hey we have 20 players average of 5-6 on each night... you have 10 average of 3-4 each night... how about we combine? Then we have 30 with 8-10 on each night?" and so on until they have enough for a raid or maybe 2-3 instances at the same time.

    Do not have any specific kinships in mind. Just curious what people think. And to what extent do alliances make combining unnecessary? Perhaps enough new players are joining the game that there is plenty of need for new kinships and ample opportunity for existing kinships to grow.

  2. #2

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    I think that there is value in some of these kins. I thougth about it as i was deeding in earlier areas and there was lots of chat about small kins. I think sometimes, even if we don't intenially try big and even medium sized kins (like ours) tend to be tough for newer players. I have to believe that as people from those kins rank up they often move on.

    Also our kin while decent size on it's on 208 members lifespan 9 usually is very self sufficient for most anything we have a "partnership" with a few smaller kins that we call on and vice-versa that works quite well. So maybe kins don't need to merge if they have there own way of doing things, but explore partnering up a bit.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    San Francisco, California
    Posts
    96

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    I think its true that there is a large influx of newer kinships recently. There are kins splitting into factions, other kins starting from unhappy players, etc. A lot more thought needs to be put into the reason why someone makes a kinship, because most of the time there is already one running with the same ideals.

    At the same time, when I started my kin, 10 months ago, the idea was that I didn't enjoy the way a lot of kins were run and thus I would run one myself.

    People will always do what they want, but I think more kinships should combine to consolidate things. I know its been on my mind. Ranks are spread thin because people may not even love their kin anymore, but are loyal to it. People don't usually leave a kin once they join, so things need to be more thought out.
    [left][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060000001077df/01001/signature.png]Thonorin[/charsig]
    [B][U]Dwarves[/U][/B]: Guardian Thonorin // Minstrel Thonor // Champion Bombour // Rune-keeper Dinn
    [B][U]Elves[/U][/B]: Hunter Thornborne // Rune-keeper Belias // Lore-master Londir
    [B][U]Men[/U][/B]: Captain Thonorir // Burglar Almah [/left]

  4. #4

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    I find that 90% of kins exist to reflect the awesomeness of their leaders/founders.

    Including mine!

    There will continue to be new kins for as long as egomaniacs exist.
    Last edited by TarPalantir; Feb 24 2010 at 10:02 PM.
    Once upon a time they called me Aed O'Brien of Coldeve
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060000000019f8/01007/signature.png]Telpehta[/charsig]

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    3,638

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Quote Originally Posted by TarPalantir View Post
    I find that 90% of kins exist to reflect the awesomeness of their leaders/founders.

    Including mine!

    There will continue to be new kins for as long as egomaniacs exist.
    I got lucky, my kin leader is a low level guard that never gets played!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c2140000000006e1/01004/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

    "...damn you burglars with your endless bag of tricks and utility belts." -Orion

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    225

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    I've noticed a ton of new kins on my server too. I think its because some of the older people are leaving end game, yet tons of new people are working their way up and making new groups. This has always happened, but I think its more pronounced now than anytime since I started a couple years back.

    Maybe the solution is a type of Super-kin or alliance system?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/062050100000c524c/signature.png]Krakh[/charsig]

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    San Francisco, California
    Posts
    96

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapiens17 View Post
    I've noticed a ton of new kins on my server too. I think its because some of the older people are leaving end game, yet tons of new people are working their way up and making new groups. This has always happened, but I think its more pronounced now than anytime since I started a couple years back.

    Maybe the solution is a type of Super-kin or alliance system?
    This has always seemed like a logical answer, but Turbine doesn't want to implement it. The usual answer is to just make a chat room that kinships can use together. Its not the same though.
    [left][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060000001077df/01001/signature.png]Thonorin[/charsig]
    [B][U]Dwarves[/U][/B]: Guardian Thonorin // Minstrel Thonor // Champion Bombour // Rune-keeper Dinn
    [B][U]Elves[/U][/B]: Hunter Thornborne // Rune-keeper Belias // Lore-master Londir
    [B][U]Men[/U][/B]: Captain Thonorir // Burglar Almah [/left]

  8. #8

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Thread Summary:
    My kinship is really small and I wish people in other small kinships would join mine because we're older and obviously better!
    People can, and will do whatever they want. If you're not offering them something unique that they can't get in their own smaller kinship why should they feel compelled to join yours?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    San Francisco, California
    Posts
    96

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Quote Originally Posted by laughterkillsme View Post
    Thread Summary:


    People can, and will do whatever they want. If you're not offering them something unique that they can't get in their own smaller kinship why should they feel compelled to join yours?
    Indeed. One needs to provide something to the members, otherwise there is no point. being older doesn't make you better, it just makes you older.
    [left][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060000001077df/01001/signature.png]Thonorin[/charsig]
    [B][U]Dwarves[/U][/B]: Guardian Thonorin // Minstrel Thonor // Champion Bombour // Rune-keeper Dinn
    [B][U]Elves[/U][/B]: Hunter Thornborne // Rune-keeper Belias // Lore-master Londir
    [B][U]Men[/U][/B]: Captain Thonorir // Burglar Almah [/left]

  10. #10

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    I do agree there have been a lot of "new" kinships forming up. One thing I noticed some of them are going for the same player base. What I mean is, I see these kinship post statements like "we are looking for active people to fill our raids. Looking for active raiders. Looking for people to attempt DN, BG, etc."

    You have a lot of kins trying to recruit into the same player base, which mean some of these kins will not make it. There are not enough people on Windfola to support the "need" for that type of player.

    Now, do I think some of these smaller kins should merge? Hmm, not sure about that. My experience in MMOs, some of the time a merger is a band-aid. It works for awhile but then the "new kin" will go back to its old ways. Now I said some mergers, mind you, not all. Sometimes it does work out but leadership needs to be strong. I think an alliance might be better (someome mentioned in this thread) but then again it, we did try that here and there where mixed results.

    For those people in smaller kins that want to raid one can always join a pug raid. I know people run away scared when it comes to pugs but if someone wants to stay in their kin but enjoy some kind of raiding thats a good option. Granted some pugs can turn ugly, but if you have good people leading them, then it can be an enjoyable experience. Reminds me, I have been slacking need to start BG pug raids. ;-)

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Calgary, AB, Canada
    Posts
    127

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmogaming View Post
    I do agree there have been a lot of "new" kinships forming up. One thing I noticed some of them are going for the same player base. What I mean is, I see these kinship post statements like "we are looking for active people to fill our raids. Looking for active raiders. Looking for people to attempt DN, BG, etc."

    You have a lot of kins trying to recruit into the same player base, which mean some of these kins will not make it. There are not enough people on Windfola to support the "need" for that type of player.
    I couldn't agree more... there seems to be a lot of interest in endgame content, we've had a continuous stream of application in our kin even though we're not recruiting... but honestly, it's not just the headcount you need for a successful raid, especially when you're exploring new dungeons like BG.

    I highly recommend the newer kins who are trying to start raiding to set certain expectations and rules - if someone is raiding just for the loot, don't expect them to stay around night after night wiping through the gauntlet... if you don't have a raid leader - get one, someone who's patient, can strategize and think on their feet, able to analyze situations (also beware of too many alphas, too many chefs in the kitchen = chaos)... and most of all - everyone else must listen and follow, when you're learning a new zone/encounter, everyone should be able to do their job and watch their surroundings, speak up when you see something and help the raid leader analyze the fights.

    We've also found tools like logwatch and CStats very useful.

    When you have a solid foundation of some of these key ingredients for a raid, people will start wanting to join your kin and you'll find yourself with more people than raid spots

    Good luck!

  12. #12

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    OP False assumption: Larger = Better.

    Some people would rather be in a kin with people they enjoy the company of than surrounded by immature whiners and jerks. Some people have no interest in raiding, or even 6 man instances, as well.

    How I manage to still be in a kin is a matter of much debate.
    I want my "The Venomous" title back.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    California....fornow
    Posts
    134

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmogaming View Post
    Reminds me, I have been slacking need to start BG pug raids. ;-)
    YES, YES you do :P And catch me when you are ready to do that - I always enjoyed our pug raids!!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060100001149c6/signature.png]Hunnycake[/charsig]
    Moxxii 85 Minstrel ~~ Arriangil 75 Burg

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Any Chat Channel Where Griefing Is Needed
    Posts
    417

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Quote Originally Posted by laughterkillsme View Post
    Thread Summary:


    People can, and will do whatever they want. If you're not offering them something unique that they can't get in their own smaller kinship why should they feel compelled to join yours?
    Being older and smaller just means you've been failing for longer, so new kinships don't want to merge cause they're newer and failing for less time, it's all about how much you want to fail, if you want to be a super fail you guys should totally merge.

  15. #15

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    And you assume that a small kinship = fail why? I've spoken with many people that are in small kinships and they are exactly what they are looking for in the game. Just because a kin isn't gigantic and raid every night does not mean it is failing.

    You sound pretty self important there.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnolas View Post
    And you assume that a small kinship = fail why? I've spoken with many people that are in small kinships and they are exactly what they are looking for in the game. Just because a kin isn't gigantic and raid every night does not mean it is failing.

    You sound pretty self important there.
    Well if your so small that you can't do anything(IRL to lawl) then it's kind of pointless to even have the kinship of 3-4 active players, and I never said you had to raid every night, up to the leader or if they can even meet the standards of the raid, but standing around running in circles doesn't seem appealing.

  17. #17

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Quote Originally Posted by OmgNah View Post
    Well if your so small that you can't do anything(IRL to lawl) then it's kind of pointless to even have the kinship of 3-4 active players, and I never said you had to raid every night, up to the leader or if they can even meet the standards of the raid, but standing around running in circles doesn't seem appealing.
    An example. I play with a few people from a kin that has only RL family members in it. I can't remember their kin name ATM but they are very small, just a handfull of players and their alts. They VERY good players and have alliances with a couple large/medium kins so are albe to do quite a lot. I think it's pretty cool.
    Last edited by Shawnolas; Feb 26 2010 at 11:56 AM.

  18. #18

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iracham View Post
    OP False assumption: Larger = Better.

    Some people would rather be in a kin with people they enjoy the company of than surrounded by immature whiners and jerks. Some people have no interest in raiding, or even 6 man instances, as well.
    Hello, nice to meet you too! I think y'all are overlooking something here though Iracham came closest to bringing it up. In a nutshell: Kinships serve different purposes to different players. But allow me to digress for a moment...

    There was a *big* change that happened when Mirkwood went live (I think it was tied to the Adventure's Pack actually). Players got two more character slots to bring the total up to 9. However the minimum number of characters it takes to keep a Kinship alive remained unchanged at 8. Ta-dah, solo Kinships are born!

    Personally, I do a lot of crafting and collect a lot of cosmetic items. Storage, for me, is a real issue. Filling out my character slots with alts, forming them into a Kinship and then purchasing a Kinship house purely for the storage it offers was (and still is) a very viable option for me.

    For the most part I play the game with 1 other person. We think alot alike, we get along well, we have similar in-game goals, etc. We actually formed two kinships between all our characters and each bought a Kinship house strictly for the storage.

    Our kins don't raid. There are never any "kinship events". We're not recruiting new players. We don't even have a website or a DKP system. None the less, I'm in the kinship I want to be in...and it succeeds brilliantly, I might add. It does everything I want it to and does it very well!

    Again, Kinships serve different purposes to different players. So, while being your own boss in a Kinship of one may not make sense or appeal to all players it certainly does to some, myself included. And I would suggest that some of the players you (the OP) see running around with obscure Kinship tags may well be members of Kinships like mine. This may not always be the case, but since the change it's at least possible now.

  19. #19

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Quote Originally Posted by OmgNah View Post
    Being older and smaller just means you've been failing for longer, so new kinships don't want to merge cause they're newer and failing for less time, it's all about how much you want to fail, if you want to be a super fail you guys should totally merge.

    Not sure why you wanted to quote Du and mention failure. So beacuse they (Kinship O) are small and been around a long time you want to call them a failure?? O is a small kinship but one hardly can call O a failure. Why say "older and samller kinship means you been failing for longer"?

    Not sure about that statement. UAO is a small kinship as well, once again from your definition, small and older kniship means they are a failure? Ah no they are not. So not sure why you would make statements like that.

  20. #20

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheREALify View Post


    Our kins don't raid. There are never any "kinship events". We're not recruiting new players. We don't even have a website or a DKP system. None the less, I'm in the kinship I want to be in...and it succeeds brilliantly, I might add. It does everything I want it to and does it very well!
    Well said!!!!!!

    The best kinship that is out there is the one your in! If you do not feel the current kinship you are in is not satisfying your game style then your in the wrong kinship.

  21. #21

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Once upon a time, Boogieman was a Guardian and United as One was a struggling casual kinship.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    Australia :o
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    1,304

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Quote Originally Posted by laughterkillsme View Post
    Once upon a time, Boogieman was a Guardian and United as One was a struggling casual kinship.
    Ooo is it story time now?

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Any Chat Channel Where Griefing Is Needed
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    417

    Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmogaming View Post
    Not sure why you wanted to quote Du and mention failure. So beacuse they (Kinship O) are small and been around a long time you want to call them a failure?? O is a small kinship but one hardly can call O a failure. Why say "older and samller kinship means you been failing for longer"?

    Not sure about that statement. UAO is a small kinship as well, once again from your definition, small and older kniship means they are a failure? Ah no they are not. So not sure why you would make statements like that.
    I actually just quoted him for the thread summary so noobs like yourself don't have to read the whole thing to know what's going on, nothing to do with O, but nice way to try and start drama..fail

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    220

    Lightbulb Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    As I have suggested (probably most ineloquently) the natural progression for LotRO would be to have a Kinship Alliance system of some sort. If you search the forums you will see myself amongst others talking on the nature of such things and exactly what that might entail so I won't bore you with the details here. However there are certainly kinships that have a tight knit of players who don't want to disband their kinship just to find out it wasn't for the best anyway and yet would still like to get into bigger end game content. They also know kinships that they trust and would like better ways of forming larger groups with a simpler interface. Currently setting up UserChat blah is ... well rubbish UX to be honest.

    The way I look at it the natural thing for the LotR lore message is to band together to fight the oncoming war. As the threat of evil gets bigger we need to stand together and form alliances to banish the evil.

    Just IMHO of course.
    Server/Kinship: Windfola / Dawning Eclipse
    Sparthir - Champion Sparcastor - Loremaster Sparcure - Minstrel Sparshadow - Burglar Spardor - Guardian
    Sparcap - Captain Spartavian - Champion Spararrow - Hunter Sparden - Warden

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    255

    Wink Re: Of the making of new kinships there is no end?

    I think alliances are an excellent way to gain access to more content. Our kin does have enough steady players to access end-game content, however lately we haven't been able to fuel our pool of lower-level players enough to provide enough interest for fellowships below cap level. That's why our kinship has several alliances. Instead of having 200+ total members, we're able to access three times that many through alliances.

    Alliances are easy to set up. Create a common chat channel and advertise the channels a lot. They certainly have helped us when looking for a sixth person or lower-level alts to play with. We even have done half-and-half raids with two raid leaders working together to get end-game gear for everyone in both kins.

    Kinships are about control imo. If you want that control, whether you're a parent who wants to fellow with your kids or you feel your friends are better suited to the type of game you want to play, you create and run a kinship. Smaller kinships can serve this purpose reasonably well, however the major problem is keeping everyone happy. Not everyone wants to do GA or Fornost with you. Some people prefer to solo but like having the company of kinchat. That's where alliances can help, even in small kinships of 10-12.

    I encourage all kinships to find like-minded kinships out there to ally with. It'll help you accomplish more, and you'll get more out of the game. Who knows? The other kinship may even like you enough that they'll offer to merge. We have done that as well.

 

 
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