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Thread: Trapper of Foes

  1. #1
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    Thumbs up Trapper of Foes

    So I was playing around with a 2/5/0 hunter on Bullroarer, since its a good place to experiment.


    Anyhow, it occurred to me that, "Wow! This is actually a viable CC build."


    Most hunters probably wouldn't give it a chance because they rolled a dps class, not a CC class, why try a CC build?

    It's so good that I would even take a CC hunter into a lot of instances (including SG) in place of a LM or burg if I couldn't find one, its much more effective than people would realize.

    Between Explosive Arrow, RoT, Bard's Arrow, Pen shot root, combat traps, crafted traps (especially triple traps), the forgotten lure traps, tripwires (now there's something even a LM can't do), and occasionally cry of the predator, a hunter can have some seriously competitive CC and the dps still ain't shabby.

    The only thing to remember is to turn off the option that'll automatically turn on auto-attacks upon skill usage, then switch auto attack on and off as needed to avoid breaking your Pen shot root.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Trapper of Foes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChampionSword View Post
    Between Explosive Arrow, RoT, Bard's Arrow, Pen shot root, combat traps, crafted traps (especially triple traps), the forgotten lure traps, tripwires (now there's something even a LM can't do), and occasionally cry of the predator, a hunter can have some seriously competitive CC and the dps still ain't shabby.
    Problem with ToF is, that all the CC you just mentioned (except Explosive Arrow 30s mez and lolPS root), is available with 1 Trapper trait and no DPS hit. Roots are great, but useless against ranged/tactical mobs like all the sorcerors in SG. A Hunter/Minstrel combo can keep one mob perma-feared without even Strong Intimidation.

    The only place I used to find ToF useful was in Forges, subbing for an LM. Now that the trolls on boss 2 are fear-immune there's no point though. I'm sure it has use in PvP, especially raided up, but can't really speak to it myself.

    There's so many problems with that line I just can't bring myself to trait it, even when I had a bow with both Distracting Shot legacies maxed out. All it really has going for it is the 30s mez, and even then you need a legacy to chain-mez, and another to drop the resist rate (only mez in the game subject to B/E/Miss/&resist, yay!).

    • +ICPR? Great, I can't burn power in this build if I tried, with PenShot on a 10x longer cooldown.
    • -RoT resist rate? How about a cooldown reduction instead?
    • -PenShot root? Great, sacrifice a staple DPS skill for a minor anti-melee CC state that's broken by an auto-attack if you don't tab away the instant it goes off, and the state lasts 1/3 of the cooldown of the skill.
    • Trap Cooldown? Terrific, yet another root, and one that can't come into play until the middle of a fight when everything's probably in melee range anyway.
    • -25% combined DPS hit that's really more like -40% because of the brutalized PenShot cooldown. Plus the opportunity cost of losing all Bowmaster damage bonuses and all Huntsman induction bonuses.


    I guess this ended up as a ToF gripe post, so I may as well try to be constructive:

    • Either get rid of the Penetrating Shot root, move it to another skill like Merciful Shot, or fiddle with the duration/cooldown to it can be kept up indefinitely. And fix the state break/override auto-attacks like fears/mezzes do.
    • Change the RoT set bonus to a 60-90 second cooldown reduction.
    • Allow us to drop skill snare traps in combat. DPS is so gimped in this line, an additional single-target DoT is in no way overpowered.
    • Remove trap inductions completely.


    And for good measure:

    • Change Distracting Shot (base) into a 0.5 second induction Interrupt with no mez component and a 1-minute cooldown. Explosive Arrow would add the 30 second mez.
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  3. #3

    Re: Trapper of Foes

    There was a good discussion on this not long ago. Skim the first page or three of the forums and you'll find it. It's a good read.

    I won't repeat the entire contents of that thread, or my feelings therein, but I would like to make one comment. I don't take a Burglar or LM along just for crowd control. They both bring a lot to the table even if they never use a single mez all night. Quite often I want them for those other things as much (if not more) than for their crowd control. Bringing along a fully traited ToF Hunter to "replace" a Burglar or LM really isn't replacing them, and you can quite often do without the full power of Explosive Arrow in any setting that does "require" CC (like SG).

    Edit:
    The only place I used to find ToF useful was in Forges, subbing for an LM. Now that the trolls on boss 2 are fear-immune there's no point though. I'm sure it has use in PvP, especially raided up, but can't really speak to it myself.
    I chuckled. "We can't keep them from walking somewhere that resets the fight when feared...just make them immune!" Nice.
    Last edited by NameAlreadyTaken; Feb 19 2010 at 11:08 AM.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Trapper of Foes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChampionSword View Post
    It's so good that I would even take a CC hunter into a lot of instances (including SG) in place of a LM or burg if I couldn't find one...
    That's part of the problem. It's still third best, and both LMs and burglars are useful for other things when performing the CC role. A ToF hunter is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by rawlingsst7 View Post
    And fix the state break/override auto-attacks like fears/mezzes do.
    We actually got a dev response that confirmed this is impossible to do. They can't make Improved [sic] PS disable autoattacks without making normal PS do the same thing. Best thing you can do is switch over to manually turning AAs on and off (takes a day or two to get used to, and does have other advantages) and just turn it off before firing an I[sic]PS.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Trapper of Foes

    Quote Originally Posted by rawlingsst7 View Post
    • Either get rid of the Penetrating Shot root, move it to another skill like Merciful Shot, or fiddle with the duration/cooldown to it can be kept up indefinitely. And fix the state break/override auto-attacks like fears/mezzes do.
    • Change the RoT set bonus to a 60-90 second cooldown reduction.
    • Allow us to drop skill snare traps in combat. DPS is so gimped in this line, an additional single-target DoT is in no way overpowered.
    • Remove trap inductions completely.

    Devs in MoM Beta said they can't change the state break for IPS w/o changing it for PS, which would be bad bad bad.

    I agree the RoT set bonus should be changed to CD.

    IMHO IC traps should include snares. snares ain't gonna make/break our DPS, lol.

    I disagree about trap inductions, but I'm a big big fan of crafted traps. I'd have sex w/ them if they weren't digital. or traps. ouch.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Trapper of Foes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChampionSword View Post
    So I was playing around with a 2/5/0 hunter on Bullroarer, since its a good place to experiment.


    Anyhow, it occurred to me that, "Wow! This is actually a viable CC build."


    Most hunters probably wouldn't give it a chance because they rolled a dps class, not a CC class, why try a CC build?

    It's so good that I would even take a CC hunter into a lot of instances (including SG) in place of a LM or burg if I couldn't find one, its much more effective than people would realize.

    Between Explosive Arrow, RoT, Bard's Arrow, Pen shot root, combat traps, crafted traps (especially triple traps), the forgotten lure traps, tripwires (now there's something even a LM can't do), and occasionally cry of the predator, a hunter can have some seriously competitive CC and the dps still ain't shabby.

    The only thing to remember is to turn off the option that'll automatically turn on auto-attacks upon skill usage, then switch auto attack on and off as needed to avoid breaking your Pen shot root.
    Since the introduction of Trapper of Foes in Mines of Moria I have fully enjoyed the bonus of the Trait line minus the one major fall it gives. The DPS cut.

    This is a trait line as mentioned that would be great for group play with overall lack of CC from another source. Ive more than once slotted full into ToF with some HM added in to boot and held my CC to its fullest.

    I just really dont like dealing about 200 damage on a crit with a QUICK SHOT or almost 300 on a PENETRATING SHOT when slotted deep into the ToF line. Just pisses me off because Im no longer my what I should be Primary Roll.

    Now if this is the case of thought for the DEVs on ToF altering the class line why such a cut on DPS? My LM can CC like a mother ducker even when caught up in MoNf line. I can still Root anything that comes around and I can still stun like its going out of style with my pet tanking something for me.

    MoNf then also increases the Fire DPS the LM has. Course Mezzing is out of the question cept to daze em out for 5 seconds.

    But all in all my LM can still do its primary Roll while DPSing and will out DPS a Hnt hands down who is ToF lined.

    Why should the Hunter lose that much DPS if we want to CC that well? If it was a Maximum of 10% reduction I could tolerate that because then Str Stance would offset that or even with Crit Magnitude in Precision would offset the DPS cut when running Precision which I normally do when Im CCing so I dont see EVADE pop up on my screen.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Trapper of Foes

    I have always rolled three deep in ToF. I enjoy the added CC but I can't stand being 4 deep because it makes PS too weird. I couldn't get used to it. Still I feel naked now without that little bit of extra CC ability. Combat traps are nice and my RoT is rarely resisted.

    Still I understand hy people would not want to takt eht DPS hit.
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  8. #8
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    Re: Trapper of Foes

    Yeah, I vaguely remember the explanation for the PS root-breaking now. I still think manually fiddling with auto-attacks is a kludgy workaround. Just get rid of that silly root entirely and [youtube]"Leave PenShot Alone!!"[/youtube]

    We already have a considerable amount of CC at our disposal with no Trapper traits (Bard's, RoT, CotP, skill trap, crafted traps, DS 10s mez). Even adding Combat Traps & Strong Intimidation goes a long way. Traiting deeper in ToF doesn't make sense unless you're going all the way to the capstone, and even then you need a specialized LI to get the full potential out of the mez.

    So what does ToF really bring to the table? One mez. A ton of roots, when roots are easily the worst form of CC imaginable (outside of the moors anyway). Roots are great for solo work, and maybe even small fellow stuff if you're being super careful about pulls and only want to fight one thing at a time. But in 3 and 6-man instances it's always faster and commonly smoother to mez/fear one or two important targets and AOE the rest. How many times do you find yourself asking "Wow, we really NEED some mezzing for this instance, but can't find a Burg or LM... what ever will we do?" Anything that can be mezzed can usually be feared anyway.

    Take SG for example... Roots are useless in there; all the Sorcerers/LMs/Summoners are just as dangerous at range and the Brutes are immune to everything. I can't remember if Guards can be rooted; but you want to be DPSing them anyway to get to the Brute through the blood-pact. Or Warg-pens, where CC is actually dangerous because it can break the meat-eating script, causing you to fail hard mode. BG? The only thing that *needs* to be CCed in there are the Sorcerors, and even then I wouldn't recommend a ToF hunter because of the gimped corruption removal; we'd need an RK babysitting each Sorc to wipe the corruption before re-mezzing.

    I can understand the reasoning behind trading off a primary role in order to significantly buff a secondary role; I just don't think the sacrifice is worth it in the case of ToF. So we sacrifice an absolute truckload of DPS to get a 30s mez and some roots. What about the other two CC classes?

    LM DN set bonus is +5s mez duration, yes? So even fully DPS-specced they can lock down a mob 2/3 of the time (barring resists) in addition to all the roots/stuns. Feint-built Burgs only lose the +5s mez duration of MM line (itself just a kludge to get around the Riddle animation, and even that bonus is effectively duplicated with a single yellow trait).

    So yeah, I agree that the loss of PenShot as a DPS skill, on top of the flat -25% damage set penalty, is too much. We already give up our best DPS traits and line-bonuses by going 5 yellow. Getting rid of the silly gImpedPS root/cooldown, and setting the max DPS penalty to -10% would go a long way towards making it a viable build.
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  9. #9

    Re: Trapper of Foes

    I have traited TOF only to be really disappointed in the useless traps. I didn't mind the lower dps if ONLY the traps would function. You are supposed to be this great trapper, yes? But must of the time the foe runs right thru them or is held for 2 sec. and then your lack of dps really hurts. Why not make this a viable trait set for the hunter that doesn't mind not being the dps king? There are lots of us out there...how about some tweaking here so we aren't cookie cutter?

  10. #10
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    Re: Trapper of Foes

    I would never take my hunter into a group with the role of CC, especially after rolling a Burg. Had the worst pug group ever in SG last night, when a hunter thought that his role was to CC the Loremasters.... what a mess. Failed 6 times at Gorothul when the hunter shot my mezzed Loremaster EVERY TIME! He was doing it on purpose, saying we needed to kill it... NOT! While he was pew-pewing away at it, it was raising it's hands and calling it's buddies to kill us. I just don't get it, especially when I told him 2 times not to shoot it. It's fine to pick up CC role when you need to, but not when you're in the group as primary dps. People need to realize that Burgs and LM's cannot just mez on command.. we have cooldowns.
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  11. #11

    Re: Trapper of Foes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChampionSword View Post
    So I was playing around with a 2/5/0 hunter on
    tripwires (now there's something even a LM can't do)....
    LM's Bog Guardian can open a cj...
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  12. #12
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    Re: Trapper of Foes

    Think we've covered this a few times.

    The conclusion:

    ToF rules--and is completely unnecessary.
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  13. #13
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    Re: Trapper of Foes

    Pretty much the last post, hehe.
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