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  1. #1

    Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    There was some debate on my server's GLFF a week or so ago about what to max out first on a bow. Consensus was to max out the DPS on the bow b/c it effects all shots and all damage we do. Do you all agree?
    I am encountering the same problem that has been mentioned before in discussions of traits to look for in weapons in that I do not have enough points on a level 65 3A to max everything. I have been maxing my dps first, then dumping points into Induction crit and Barbed Arrow. TBH, this leaves me with little points for anything else. This is particularly true since maxing DPS eats a lot of points.
    Thoughts?
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  2. #2
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Afuna View Post
    There was some debate on my server's GLFF a week or so ago about what to max out first on a bow. Consensus was to max out the DPS on the bow b/c it effects all shots and all damage we do. Do you all agree?

    ...

    Thoughts?
    Absolutely. DPS first, legs after.

    And one thing you might consider is to take legacies up to tier 7 or 8 rather than maxing them at 9, especially if you really have several legs that you like equally well, or nearly so. Those last one or two steps cost significantly more than the earlier ones, so you can save a lot of points to spread elsewhere at relatively little cost in missed benefits.
    Last edited by Angadan; Jan 26 2010 at 03:30 PM.

  3. #3
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Afuna View Post
    There was some debate on my server's GLFF a week or so ago about what to max out first on a bow. Consensus was to max out the DPS on the bow b/c it effects all shots and all damage we do. Do you all agree?
    - yes -
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  4. #4
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Yes.

    We are a DPS class and therefore upon our primary line of Killage you should but do not have to is focus on maximizing the available DPS you can have.

    How I look at it all is that the Bows have Legacies that help with the DPS but the DPS is always the most important.

    Our Melee Legendary Items are the opposite. You should work on the Legacies first then the DPS last. Or at least that I do. As much as I love my DPS on my Spear Im good to raise a Legacy before it.

    Hell my FA Spear has all maxed out Legacies and lvl 5 or 6 DPS so I cant argue with that . Then again my legacies are pretty high up in tier.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  5. #5

    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Thanks for the confirmation....but reading your post, my question is: max DPS completely and go just shy of max for other nice legacies (to conserve and wisely use my points).....or go for just shy of the max on all my legacies, INCLUDING dps?
    And I totally agree with not touching dps on my off weapon. I prefered to max the points on NH and Crit Precision, and then move on to other legacies. I do not see the need for dumping our limited number of points into dps on my dagger (or axe, or mace, or whatever non-bow weapon you choose).
    Last edited by Afuna; Jan 26 2010 at 03:38 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Now that we have the Scrolls of Renewal you can play with both.

    Try it out sometime. All my other classes I dont max out the DPS portion or other said bonus of the weapon beyond 6 and work on Legacies afterwards.

    My Hunter I strive for maximum potential so its just habit to spend that high cost of 70 LP to raise it up.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  7. #7
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Afuna View Post
    Thanks for the confirmation....but reading your post, my question is: max DPS completely and go just shy of max for other nice legacies (to conserve and wisely use my points).....or go for just shy of the max on all my legacies, INCLUDING dps?
    Absolutely max your dps. Consider going just shy on the legs if you have several you like a lot, to spread the points out more. But max your DPS at the very tip-top, first.

  8. #8
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    I agree. The minstrel should max out healing first and the DPS classes should max out DPS first. Also, spend some time on scrolls to get the tiers up. The higher the tier, the cheaper the upgrades cost.

  9. #9
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Afuna View Post
    Thanks for the confirmation....but reading your post, my question is: max DPS completely and go just shy of max for other nice legacies (to conserve and wisely use my points).....or go for just shy of the max on all my legacies, INCLUDING dps?
    In practice, I always max DPS. However, I think that's something that certainly bears looking into. The costs for the last tier or two for any legacy (including DPS) are pretty high. Thing is tho, even if there are times when you would be better off not taking the last tier of DPS, it's is gonna be a case-by-case decision.

    Say you have enough points to go up the last tier of DPS or 2 tiers of BA Bleed? BAB goes directly into DPS (only one skill obviously, but a skill that should be a constant contributor to your overall DPS), so maybe those 2 tiers of BAB benefit you more than the final tier of DPS.

    On the other hand, you're typically not going to have enough legacies that contribute so heavily to DPS that you're going to be in the situation to make that decision. Usually it's going to be something more like, last tier of DPS, or 2 tiers of ranged evade chance?

    I do think we should look into some numbers on this tho.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    I do think we should look into some numbers on this tho.
    Yeah, it would be interesting to see. My gut tells me maxing DPS is prolly always the right answer (for hunters at least). Because it affets 100% of every shot, just has to be huge compared to anything else. But you never know until some genius M-B runs the numbers!

  11. #11
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Yes, DPS first.*




    *There's a theoretical math point during leveling prior to level 10 or 20 where you CAN'T hit the next DPS tier before you hit the 10/20 reforge. BEFORE you reforge, you could then invest that remainder into other legs to help out. But @ reforge, slap it all back into DPS.

    @ 22 it's capped.

    DPS increases factor into every damage skill you have, as it increases the minimum damage and maximum damage calculated in all attacks. The legacies that increase damage directly modify the number rolled between that min-max range. While there may be some theorycraft combinations of Tier5 DPS Rank4 bleed for a level 17 weapon where you get = or slightly better damage per second, those instances would only exist for a fraction of a particular weapons lifespan - if they existed. Doing the math on that is also pretty impractical, since it's not a max-leveled weapon - so I'll pass on it.



    EDIT: Also, for a weapon you're planning on using ASAP...

    ... don't play around w/ legacy stuff after the 20 reforge. Pop everything to DPS, and then cap it @ 22. You're stuck w/ whatever you throw into it until reforge @ level 30, and if you don't have the pills to make it there, you don't want to get stuck w/ tier 5 or 6 in something while you're re-building enough points for the last DPS purchase. Patience, grasshopper!
    Last edited by kerryak; Jan 26 2010 at 04:55 PM.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Put it this way, would you rather have 1% more damage, or an extra 2.5% to your induction and focus critical multipliers?

    Answer: 1% more damage, the extra 2.5% critical multipliers only add ~0.25% to total dps.

    Overall our legacies are so piss poor maxing damage is more important. If we had legacies like Rune-Keepers that were broad in scope and high in impact it might be a different story. (Things like +10% Induction damage(+FoS), +10% Focus damage(+WoF), +35% ranged critical multiplier(+FoS Crit))
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  13. #13
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    My hunter is my co-main, and my original character in the game...I have more PT on it than any others, even though my RK outlevels him at the moment.

    That said, I have always built my bow and weapons much as everyone says up top (DPS first on bows, legacies first on weapons).

    I generally follow this Mantra (this is bows only, I wont talk about weapons):
    1. DPS (increase damage as much as possible)
    2. Power reduction (more shots of more damage, per 1)
    3. - varies on weapon. I like to have one bow that reduces threat as well for groups, but I also like to have an option to have increased crit magnatude, or BAB damage. You can play with this a bit, but the other 2 are absolute. Also note, I prefer induction power reduction over the other, since I use more inducted skills.

    The actual tiering process differs a bit. I tier DPS first, but when it starts to get too expensive, esp at lower weapon levels, dont hesitate to tier up the power reduction...in a long fight, it is kind of like upping DPS, as you will get off more shots before you have any power issues. Also - pay attention to the tiers. Weapons have a predisposition when you get them, by the tiers. A bunch of tier I legacies wont do you that much...tier I legacies are more expensive than higher tier (with 6 being king). A higher tier legacy requires fewer points to max out. If you are lucky, at reforge, you will get the chance to improve a legacy. If not, you should also know that for skirmish marks, you can buy scrolls that will up the legacy on a weapon a tier! It is a bit of a gamble with LIs....most will have moderately tiered legacies, and only a few of them to start off. You will have to choose one that looks promising, and then hope that through reforging you can improve tiers or have the option to add legacies you dont have along the way (with no gaurantee that the legacy you want will be offered), or spend the time to buy the scrolls to improve legacies you would like to improve.

    Anyway - maybe long winded, but that is my philosoply: 1 DPS, 2 Power reduc, 3+, players choice.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Gildonel View Post
    Also note, I prefer induction power reduction over the other, since I use more inducted skills.
    Is it better to favor induction skill power reduction or focus skill power reduction? On one hand, you have higher volume (more induction skills used), on the other hand, you have higher cost (focus skill have higher costs).

    The following is from a random soloing parse I happened to have laying around, and uses power costs from screen shots I had from the beta when I was L60 & in S:S. So take this with a grain of salt, but I think it points toward something that should be tested further.
    Code:
                        num     avg     power      Less      Amt
                       used    cost      used       10%    Saved
    Focus Skills        516     159    71,304    64,174    7,130
    Induction Skills    363      87    31,514    28,363    3,151
    Just looking at that one case, if I had only one -power cost legacy, the Focus one would have benefited me more by a significant amount. It would make more sense to use some parses from a group run, but that's what I had handy. The fact my power cost values were from a L60 in S:S shouldn't make too much difference since the power increases from L60 to 65 should be roughly even across focus vs induction skills. And the added costs of S:S vs S:P which you'd probably be using in a group should also affect both Focus and Induction skills evenly.


    EDIT: I just realized I was counting each hit from ISB since that's how it comes thru in the parse. Changed numbers to adjust for that (I'm assuming CStats tracked all ISB arrows, I don't think it actually tracks misses, or full BPEs, but I have no way to account for that, so there is some margin for error here). The same issue exists for RoA & RoT, but I have no way of knowing how many mobs were hit by those. I had a mix of multi-mob and single-mob situations in the parse I used, so I'm gonna say, on average, I hit 2 mobs per. I also changed the average cost to a weighted average instead of just showing the average cost of the skills for that category. The difference is fairly minimal: 159 instead of 158 for focus skills; 87 instead of 84 for induction skills (after adjusting the ISB counts).

    With the ISB counts adjusted, the difference is far more stark. Again, this was a random solo run, and has a couple issues that reduce the quality of the test, so not the best test, but I think with that wide of a gap, the difference more than likely will translate to group play as well. The gap may narrow some, but I can't imagine it would close that much.
    Last edited by Dom12; Jan 28 2010 at 12:20 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    Is it better to favor induction skill power reduction or focus skill power reduction? On one hand, you have higher volume (more induction skills used), on the other hand, you have higher cost (focus skill have higher costs).

    The following is from a random soloing parse I happened to have laying around, and uses power costs from screen shots I had from the beta when I was L60 & in S:S. So take this with a grain of salt, but I think it points toward something that should be tested further.
    Code:
                        num     avg     power      Less      Amt
                       used    cost      used       10%    Saved
    Focus Skills        516     158    82,948    74,653    8,295
    Induction Skills    625      84    62,692    56,423    6,269
    Just looking at that one case, if I had only one -power cost legacy, the Focus one would have benefited me more by a significant amount. It would make more sense to use some parses from a group run, but that's what I had handy. The fact my power cost values were from a L60 in S:S shouldn't make too much difference since the power increases from L60 to 65 should be roughly even across focus vs induction skills. And the added costs of S:S vs S:P which you'd probably be using in a group should also affect both Focus and Induction skills evenly.

    ^

    morewords.

    focus power > induction power, due to their costs, not frequency.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    But max your DPS at the very tip-top, first.
    Should be able to do this at level 22 or 23. The other 37 or 38 levels are for the other stuff. And with a scroll, 47 or 48.

    But yeah, I agree. Max out DPS first... legacy ranks are definitely secondary to a DPS-centric class like hunter, although still important.
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  17. #17
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Well, your question about power redux is valid, of focus vs. induction. If I can, of course, I prefer to have th legacy to reduce both if possible, and then you can choose which one you want to spend more points on to have the greater reduction. If you cant get both - well, then you are stuck with the one you get, or hold out for the one you want. BUT, overall, in real combat, I tend use more induction skills than focus. I use focus as I can, but a typical rotation, when grouped, uses a more Quick Shot, Barbed Arrow, Swift Bow, Penetrating shot, Swift Bow, Penetrating Shot (if ready). Grouped, I rarley use merciful shot, or Rain of Arrows....Mericufl burns off too much focus at once, and Rain can draw aggro I dont want, I just dont use it much. So, in combat for me, my rotation is induction heavy. Solo, it changes, and I will use some other induction skills more often, likes bards or distracting shot, as well as Rain of thorns...it varies,...but again, I use more of the induction skills most of the time.

    In general, since I need to use induction skills to get my focus skills up (after initial focus burnt off), I tend to think of them as the power burners. However, I have not looked at it as you have it. It should be tested....thanks Turbine for the scrolls of renewal! Now I can test it and not have any consequence!

    My overall point was that DPS is king, and you should always be mindful of your power usage as well, focus or induction - either will bear you fruit. Also implicated is what legacy has what tier. It may be cheap to max power redux on your focus if it is tier 6, and then you have a tier 4 focus. If that is case, by max level, you have a great chance to max both - and that is assuming you dont use scrolls to tier up the tier 4 legacy!

    BTW - I love this stuff - by sharing, I too have learned! Cant wait to test this!
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  18. #18

    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    I always max dps first on both melee and ranged weapons. I've always done that. I'm thinking of changing that now on my melee weapon. I've been looking at the damage numbers and they are just not high for my melee. Maybe I should say not as high as I would like. I find that I use melee for the parry bonus or slow or focus gen etc. I got a 65 mace that has at least 5 legs that I'd like to max out and I think that won't be possible if I dump so many points into the dps. I really like the idea of not max tiering though since it's always the last step that costs the most. I'm gonna try that out I think tonight and report back how successful I am.

  19. #19
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    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    I realized I hadn't accounted for CStats counting each ISB/RoA/RoT arrow, so I went back and adjusted the numbers accordingly in my Focus Power Reduction vs. Induction Power Reduction post back on page 2. More explanation is at the bottom of that post noted by the EDIT tag.

    In the end, the adjustment to ISB numbers made a pretty big difference, widening the gap significantly. End result being that I would have gained more than 2x as much power savings from a -focus power legacy than a -induction power legacy in that case.
    Last edited by Dom12; Jan 28 2010 at 02:48 PM.
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

    [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=92210"]Camp Site List[/URL] [/b][COLOR=#8C9FB2]||[/COLOR] [B][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?338615-Regen&p=4742372#post4742372"]Regen (PIC/MIC) from Fate[/URL] [COLOR=#8C9FB2][/B]||[B] Convert Ratings to Percent[/B]: [B][/COLOR][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4082215#post4082215"]BPE/Crit/Etc.[/URL][/B][/size]

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,051

    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    I realized I hadn't accounted for CStats counting each ISB/RoA/RoT arrow, so I went back and adjusted the numbers accordingly in my Focus Power Reduction vs. Induction Power Reduction post back on page 2. More explanation is at the bottom of that post noted by the EDIT tag.

    In the end, the adjustment to ISB numbers made a pretty big difference, widening the gap significantly. End result being that I would have gained more than 2x as much power savings from a -induction power legacy than a -focus power legacy in that case.
    Other way round :-P
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000018f9c7/signature.png]Felaedor[/charsig]

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    449

    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    IMO, DPS is by far the best use of your pts.

    -power costs are 2nd
    +Barbed Arrow Bleed is 3rd
    +Crit are 4th
    Have you hugged a star today?
    Antioch L65 Elf Hunter - Portly L65 Runekeeper
    FF
    Stickeye R9 Blackarrow

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    3,228

    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Quote Originally Posted by Felaedor View Post
    Other way round :-P
    Doh! (fixed)
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

    [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=92210"]Camp Site List[/URL] [/b][COLOR=#8C9FB2]||[/COLOR] [B][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?338615-Regen&p=4742372#post4742372"]Regen (PIC/MIC) from Fate[/URL] [COLOR=#8C9FB2][/B]||[B] Convert Ratings to Percent[/B]: [B][/COLOR][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4082215#post4082215"]BPE/Crit/Etc.[/URL][/B][/size]

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    234

    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Great Test! I am going to reconfig my bow and try it out! (Rep 4 u)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000020a33e/01008/signature.png]Electoric[/charsig]
    Electoric-65RK; Adanador-63Hnt; Misscreant-54Burg; Galock - BA

  24. #24

    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    Having been the one to start this thread, and having spent some time reviewing this and other posts and paying a LOT closer attention during instances such as SH, Warg Pens, DN Runs (more the bosses on DN runs)...I am noticing more and more that power is a major issue and that after DPS as the first thing to max out, attention needs to be paid to -power costs. I am inclined to agree with many posts that say when you have to start holding back, or waiting for the timer on a pot potion to run out (b/c LM is feeding power to mini or tank, etc.), you are actually doing less dps than you would if your power was being wisely conserved with -power legacies.
    I say this, noting that I typically run S:P. I know that S:S is a power drain and S:E will help conserve power, but isn't it all about balance? Does it not make sense to be able to use your most powerful shots more often thereby increasing your toon's effectiveness?
    I am leaning towards DPS being maxed than moving to BA being almost maxed and -power followed by +crit.
    These are just my observations. I understand fully that peole play their toons differently, have different emphasis on diff't stuff, and it all seems to work well for them.
    As always, enjoy your toon, enjoy the game, and have fun.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0120300000011d9cf/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    1,008

    Re: Maxing Bow DPS as first priority

    If you run out of Power in S:P then you definately have power problems. I would say that most hunters can run themselves out of power pretty easily is S:S unless they have "tuned" their hunter to regularly run in that stance.

    Obviously in S:E you should never run out of power, ever.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/07206000000040366/signature.png]Evad[/charsig]
    [color=silver][i]"Intelligence is my bow, cunning are my arrows, and wisdom is my armor"[/i][/color]
    [color=lightgreen][b]If you experience a lag spike in real life, would you notice?[/b][/color]

 

 
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