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  1. #1

    dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Greetings all.
    This evening in the moors, and your typical OOC drama were creeps complaining about the local triple boxer running 3 BAs and wiping the freeps out one by one.
    At first I really paid no attention to it but other creeps observed something that at first I did not notice: the fact that they were literally all moving at the same time, to the same place and all firing at the exact same moment, etc.
    It was almost impossible to read the names because their avatars were literally inside one another.. that is how in sync they were.
    Obviously it was some sort of bot or macro...

    So, my logic at first to other creeps: don't like it report it and let the GMs handle it.
    And other creeps response was simply: turbine does not care... they say it's okay to run things like this.
    In disbelief, I submitted a ticket and the GM that responded told me there is no rule against running multiple accounts with macros and such so what this player is doing, well as lame as it is, it's perfectly okay and if I wanted I could submit feedback about it.

    So, now I am in head scratcher mode.... it's okay to run bots and macros to triple box?
    Since my ticket is just closed by the GM without a chance to even respond... I don't even have a chance to point out this from the section of the EULA entitled 'code of conduct'
    18. You may not create, post, use or distribute any utilities, emulators or other third party software tools without the express written permission of Turbine (including, without limitation, macroing programs, botting programs, server emulators, client hacks, map hacks, and data gathering utilities).
    Since these creeps were all high ranking creeps, and I have seen them running around for quite some time, it's clear that this part of the EULA I either misinterpret or they have concluded that this player is not breaking it, yet I fail to see how this is the case.

    So, as players what should we say or do when we come across this and the GMs are unwilling or unable to listen?

  2. #2

    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoyalServant View Post
    Greetings all.
    This evening in the moors, and your typical OOC drama were creeps complaining about the local triple boxer running 3 BAs and wiping the freeps out one by one.
    At first I really paid no attention to it but other creeps observed something that at first I did not notice: the fact that they were literally all moving at the same time, to the same place and all firing at the exact same moment, etc.
    It was almost impossible to read the names because their avatars were literally inside one another.. that is how in sync they were.
    Obviously it was some sort of bot or macro...

    So, my logic at first to other creeps: don't like it report it and let the GMs handle it.
    And other creeps response was simply: turbine does not care... they say it's okay to run things like this.
    In disbelief, I submitted a ticket and the GM that responded told me there is no rule against running multiple accounts with macros and such so what this player is doing, well as lame as it is, it's perfectly okay and if I wanted I could submit feedback about it.

    So, now I am in head scratcher mode.... it's okay to run bots and macros to triple box?
    Since my ticket is just closed by the GM without a chance to even respond... I don't even have a chance to point out this from the section of the EULA entitled 'code of conduct'


    Since these creeps were all high ranking creeps, and I have seen them running around for quite some time, it's clear that this part of the EULA I either misinterpret or they have concluded that this player is not breaking it, yet I fail to see how this is the case.

    So, as players what should we say or do when we come across this and the GMs are unwilling or unable to listen?
    Double/Triple boxing does not apply, as it doesn't affect LotRO specifically, and it certainly requires there to be someone controlling them. Usually the applications/hardware that allows this essentially allows you to do the same thing on three instances of the game using a single keyboard/mouse. However, since the individual character is still being controlled, and doesn't gain any more advantage than normal characters would in a group - there's really no exploit here.

    Now sure, that particular player is benefiting, but they're the ones who spent the extra money to buy three accounts. The question you have to ask is if 3 individuals all had high-ranking BAs, would they fare any differently? Most likely not.
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  3. #3
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    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Most multi-boxers I know do it with multiple machines, and multiple keyboards. They play 2 or 3 at once and they consider it a challenge.

    I think it is arguably kind of lame in PvMP, but hey that's just my opinion. On the other hand, I know some two-man teams that search for triple boxers and take them out. Easy Rep if you know how to do it. They are really quite vulnerable if you get them twisted up and behind them.

    Also, FWIW, this subject has been beaten to death a hundred times. On multiple servers.

    Turbine allows it as long as each character can respond to a tell from a GM. Most of the time, they can. The policy is pretty well established.

  4. #4

    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Even if it was plainly obvious that there was some form of software/hardware that was relaying data to 3 clients either on a single computer or any combination of computers?

    If this person was controlling all 3 of those accounts with such precision then I will eat my socks tomorrow for dinner.
    Being a programmer converted from electrical engineer I am certain I could come up with such a command and control system in either a hardware or software solution, the question is whether or not such systems should be allowed under this section of the EULA.

    I had no idea that the system in place that decides macro or bot was based on the fact that the user could respond to a tell, and that requirement is so easy to satisfy that it may as well not exist.

    Certainly this player is controlling them, of that I have no doubt.
    The question that lingers is the mechanism of that control, which is obviously some form of software or hardware solution aimed at relaying input to each client.

  5. #5

    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoyalServant View Post
    Even if it was plainly obvious that there was some form of software/hardware that was relaying data to 3 clients either on a single computer or any combination of computers?

    If this person was controlling all 3 of those accounts with such precision then I will eat my socks tomorrow for dinner.
    Being a programmer converted from electrical engineer I am certain I could come up with such a command and control system in either a hardware or software solution, the question is whether or not such systems should be allowed under this section of the EULA.

    I had no idea that the system in place that decides macro or bot was based on the fact that the user could respond to a tell, and that requirement is so easy to satisfy that it may as well not exist.

    Certainly this player is controlling them, of that I have no doubt.
    The question that lingers is the mechanism of that control, which is obviously some form of software or hardware solution aimed at relaying input to each client.
    Like I said though - the important part is that some real person is controlling a character. All three of those characters at once are no better or worse than the player controlling them - so it's essentially as if there were three players. If the person in question was only controlling a single character, and grouped with two friends, would there be any different result?
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  6. #6

    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Could that be a company program such as the one for power leveling? I have heard people say that is what is going on when you see that.

  7. #7

    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonsee View Post
    Could that be a company program such as the one for power leveling? I have heard people say that is what is going on when you see that.
    It would certainly be a good way to power level, just as if you had two friends that always grouped with you. However, selling accounts, gold, or other game items is against the EULA.
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  8. #8
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    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoyalServant View Post
    If this person was controlling all 3 of those accounts with such precision then I will eat my socks tomorrow for dinner.
    Being a programmer converted from electrical engineer I am certain I could come up with such a command and control system in either a hardware or software solution, the question is whether or not such systems should be allowed under this section of the EULA.
    What you described can be done with 1 primary character and 2 other characters on autofollow. That gives you the effect of 2 characters standing on top of each other - usually just behind the leader character, although he can try to fake you out by backing the lead chararacter back on top of the two autofollowers. A second keyboard, perhaps wireless, can be added to on the 2 autofollow computers. (Note the autofollow computers can have a normal keyboard as well. They can be fully standalone systems.) The player works with two keyboards and one mouse. One hand working the mouse and main keyboard for the lead characters. That one does all the targeting. The other hand is just on wireless keyboard feeding commands simultaneously to the 2 autofollow computers, resulting in the simultaneous firing you observed. Typically just a few commands are used, like 1,2,3,4,5, and so on.

    The autofollow characters are almost always Ranged DPS (e.g Hunter). I don't think melee classes are very doable, but I'm sure some multiboxer has figured out how to make it work.

    The guy has 3 accounts he's paying for. He probably has 3 computers too. The only hardware "trick" *might* be a wireless keyboard.

    There is no botting. There is no macroing. No client hacks. Nothing that is listed in the EULA. Really. Just one guy running 3 accounts. And yes, those folks are a little nuts.

    As far as PvMP is concerned, treat it as a tactical challenge. If he gets the drop on you, yeah, you are toast. If you get the drop on him, well, then it's all the sweeter isn't it? :-)

    My recommendation is don't sweat it. There aren't too many of these guys around. Everyone announces where they are in OOC when they come out to play. It can be fun to chase them down. They really are easier to kill than 3 individual players. :-)

  9. #9
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    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    I should also add that this topic is very polarizing. There are players that HATE HATE HATE multiboxers. They are absolutely of the opinion that what they are doing is cheating. Somehow. And that Turbine should disallow it and ban it. Somehow.

    While I concede the frustrations that are generated when one of these guys gets the drop on you, I actually don't think it's worth worrying about. And certainly not worth having Turbine spend valuable time and resources trying to block or prevent it.

    JMO, of course.

    Read this thread for LOTS more on this subject: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=253454
    Last edited by Tokomak; Jan 13 2010 at 02:58 AM.

  10. #10
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    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    I box. I software box on one machine. I can run as many clients as I wish and make custom key bindings to control actions of all the slave clients while I control them all via the master client.

    This is where its 'legal'
    I do not use software that enables repeater functions. That is, for every single action for each slave client I have to press a key. I am effctivly playing each character.
    The moment I use a repeater, and have the software play the game for me Im breaking rules and risk a ban.

    I am by no stretch an advanced boxer, but I can box just about any instance I want when ever I want.

    Its a ton of fun, I've got so bored with the game in recent months that I've needed to find something to keep me playing. Boxing keeps me logged on.
    That is why Turbine doesn't care if you box or not.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000000fd8b5/signature.png]Grampsith[/charsig]

  11. #11
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    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    It's completely legal, and there's no "bots" hacking, or anything else illegal about it involved. I'm certainly no expert, but it wasn't hard for me to get two clients up and running on my computer at home- started one, logged in, minimized, started it again and logged in on second account. Woila, I'm multiboxing.

    Playing around a little more with my keyboard commands, I found I was able to send a couple of simple commands to the client version of my choice, and even had a couple where I was able to get both clients to shoot off an attack at the same time. That was using solely Lotro and the hardware already on my computer. And if I can manage to do that as a complete novice who's never multi-boxed before, I can imagine it wouldn't be that difficult to set it up very efficiently with 3 or more computers.

    There are also a few of the devs that openly admit multi-boxing (Orien comes to mind). So it's perfectly legal- as long as there is actually a person running each character. They might be running them simultaneously, but it's still being directly controlled by a player.
    Firefoot: Elendale (hunter) Galorlas (champ) Grimlaff (warden) Corny (warg)

  12. #12
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    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    I personally cannot stand multiple clients played at the same time. Just a opinion but it goes against the thought of 'being a character' in a world created. Minic real life, play as like real life, be that character. That's just my opinion. You can question the designs of mmo's lately. If they gave us the stuff to do as a character in game, The alt wars more than likely wouldn't be as great as they are.

  13. #13
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    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoyalServant View Post
    Greetings all.
    This evening in the moors, and your typical OOC drama were creeps complaining about the local triple boxer running 3 BAs and wiping the freeps out one by one.
    At first I really paid no attention to it but other creeps observed something that at first I did not notice: the fact that they were literally all moving at the same time, to the same place and all firing at the exact same moment, etc.
    It was almost impossible to read the names because their avatars were literally inside one another.. that is how in sync they were.
    Obviously it was some sort of bot or macro...

    So, my logic at first to other creeps: don't like it report it and let the GMs handle it.
    And other creeps response was simply: turbine does not care... they say it's okay to run things like this.
    In disbelief, I submitted a ticket and the GM that responded told me there is no rule against running multiple accounts with macros and such so what this player is doing, well as lame as it is, it's perfectly okay and if I wanted I could submit feedback about it.

    So, now I am in head scratcher mode.... it's okay to run bots and macros to triple box?
    Since my ticket is just closed by the GM without a chance to even respond... I don't even have a chance to point out this from the section of the EULA entitled 'code of conduct'


    Since these creeps were all high ranking creeps, and I have seen them running around for quite some time, it's clear that this part of the EULA I either misinterpret or they have concluded that this player is not breaking it, yet I fail to see how this is the case.

    So, as players what should we say or do when we come across this and the GMs are unwilling or unable to listen?
    We have foour or five of these guys one brandywine. They are all 5 boxers in other words one main toon and the other 5 following. I have always felt this is cheeting but I guess the guy has 6 accounts. There are a few others.

    I know multiple folks over the years have turned in tickets and nothing has ever happened ever. So I would guess that Turbine does not consider it cheating, I know my tickets were closed with no answer attached as others were as well.

    So it is clear to me that this kind of thing turbine considers ok, otherwise these same folks and I see them every day would no longer be playing.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000000310b/01003/signature.png]Isest[/charsig]

  14. #14

    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokomak View Post
    What you described can be done with 1 primary character and 2 other characters on autofollow. That gives you the effect of 2 characters standing on top of each other - usually just behind the leader character, although he can try to fake you out by backing the lead chararacter back on top of the two autofollowers. A second keyboard, perhaps wireless, can be added to on the 2 autofollow computers. (Note the autofollow computers can have a normal keyboard as well. They can be fully standalone systems.) The player works with two keyboards and one mouse. One hand working the mouse and main keyboard for the lead characters. That one does all the targeting. The other hand is just on wireless keyboard feeding commands simultaneously to the 2 autofollow computers, resulting in the simultaneous firing you observed. Typically just a few commands are used, like 1,2,3,4,5, and so on.

    The autofollow characters are almost always Ranged DPS (e.g Hunter). I don't think melee classes are very doable, but I'm sure some multiboxer has figured out how to make it work.

    The guy has 3 accounts he's paying for. He probably has 3 computers too. The only hardware "trick" *might* be a wireless keyboard.

    There is no botting. There is no macroing. No client hacks. Nothing that is listed in the EULA. Really. Just one guy running 3 accounts. And yes, those folks are a little nuts.

    As far as PvMP is concerned, treat it as a tactical challenge. If he gets the drop on you, yeah, you are toast. If you get the drop on him, well, then it's all the sweeter isn't it? :-)

    My recommendation is don't sweat it. There aren't too many of these guys around. Everyone announces where they are in OOC when they come out to play. It can be fun to chase them down. They really are easier to kill than 3 individual players. :-)
    Good explanation.
    I can see how it could be done without breaking the rules then.
    I figured that it was either my misinterpretation or there was another way I had not considered or thought about, hence my post.

  15. #15

    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    I don't pvp but I do 2-box a mini and an rk on 2 seperate machines. I enjoy it because it is more challenging.

    What I do is run a program called Input Director. It allows me to use 1 keyboard and 1 mouse for both computers. When I slide the mouse to the edge of the screen it jumps to the other computer and whatever computer the mouse is on, the keyboard works only for that computer. It's not an ideal setup for pvp but like I said, I don't pvp.

  16. #16
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    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Turbine has other ways to tell if someone is Multi-boxing with separate computers or with a single computer with software coordinating input for multiple clients. However, if you are /reported then the GMs are at least courteous enough to give you the benefit of the doubt and send each character a /tell just to make sure.

    I've heard of one instance in LOTRO where someone was asked by a GM to send a digital photo of the 8 Computer Multi-Boxing setup they were using, but that was an extreme case. Most of the time, if you can prove that all characters are attended to by an actual physical person (by responding coherently to a /tell in a timely fashion), then it's No Harm/No Foul.

    (And btw, the Auto-responders in some Multi-boxing software isn't going to fool anyone, let alone a GM.)

    Ultimately, what it comes down to is Unattended vs. Attended Game Play. Unattended Game Play is a super-big No-No that is violation of the CoC/ToS. As long as you are attending to multiple clients, then it is allowed.

    (For the record, I have multi-boxed with two accounts on two computers before, but even with Programmable Gamepads & Keyboards, it is so cumbersome that I'd just rather play one at a time.)

  17. #17
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    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjhackney View Post
    I don't pvp but I do 2-box a mini and an rk on 2 seperate machines. I enjoy it because it is more challenging.

    What I do is run a program called Input Director. It allows me to use 1 keyboard and 1 mouse for both computers. When I slide the mouse to the edge of the screen it jumps to the other computer and whatever computer the mouse is on, the keyboard works only for that computer. It's not an ideal setup for pvp but like I said, I don't pvp.
    /Slight Thread DeRail

    That is a sweet little App, just gave that a shot and it works great. Not just for gaming but for everything I do on multiple PCs, the Clipboard can even be shared. I'm running it on two machines one is a 64 Bit Vista Ultimate and the other an XP Professional without any OS conflicts.

    Thanks for that info!
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  18. #18
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    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    I actually quit PvP on my server for a while due to a 6 boxer. This issue annoyed me so much that I no longer was having fun in the Moors and since I could not care less about renown that left no reason for me to play. Turbine will do nothing at this point and Orion (dev) claims to dual box (which I think is unfortunate for him to have said because it encourages it.)

    I have no problem with it in PvE - its lame imo, but it doesn't ruin other players game experience like it does in PvP where it creates imbalance. (6 hunters pew-pewing creeps in tandem)

    Anyway, I placed the six-boxer on my friends list so I would know when he was there (he was on freepside as was I.) If he was there, I was not. Many of the creeps would log out if he came on and other freeps who continued to play just ignored him, avoided him or refused to heal or rez him. Creeps would kill him & his bots and then rez camp him.

    *knock on wood* He has not been on in the Moors since SoM release. It truly caused our server's PvP to go down the tubes for a while.

    Eventually, I decided to go play creepside on another boxer-free server which it turns out has PvP that is more like the style I enjoy. SoM has brought the fun back to freepside for me and I adore my creepside friends on Landy, so the story has a happy ending.

  19. #19

    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    I guess I should add this.










    And no, that's not me but I'll bet a few of you recognize this guy.

  20. #20
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    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjhackney View Post
    I don't pvp but I do 2-box a mini and an rk on 2 seperate machines. I enjoy it because it is more challenging.

    What I do is run a program called Input Director. It allows me to use 1 keyboard and 1 mouse for both computers. When I slide the mouse to the edge of the screen it jumps to the other computer and whatever computer the mouse is on, the keyboard works only for that computer. It's not an ideal setup for pvp but like I said, I don't pvp.
    Hmmm I'll have to take a look at that program. I dual box a minny I have on my wife's acount (usually to try to solo instances like GS) and I just sit a laptop next to my desktop and use 2 mouses and 2 keyboards
    Going on Hiatus until this statement becomes true:
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  21. #21
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    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoyalServant View Post
    At first I really paid no attention to it but other creeps observed something that at first I did not notice: the fact that they were literally all moving at the same time, to the same place and all firing at the exact same moment, etc.
    It was almost impossible to read the names because their avatars were literally inside one another.. that is how in sync they were.
    Obviously it was some sort of bot or macro...
    I find it sad that you started a thread (rightfully) complaining about your perceived use of robotic control but that for some reason I don't understand had to choose a title blaming dual-boxers.

    There are legitimate uses for dual boxing as long as the characters in there only move by human hands on the keyboard or mouse. On the contrary, if you have a scripting mechanism you'd run multiple accounts on the same box and screen, not dual-boxing at all.

    So can you please stop that dual-boxing bashing and get back to the actual issue - scripting, which is cheating and explicitly forbidden, no matter how many boxes involved.

  22. #22

    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aethniniel View Post
    I actually quit PvP on my server for a while due to a 6 boxer. This issue annoyed me so much that I no longer was having fun in the Moors and since I could not care less about renown that left no reason for me to play. Turbine will do nothing at this point and Orion (dev) claims to dual box (which I think is unfortunate for him to have said because it encourages it.)

    I have no problem with it in PvE - its lame imo, but it doesn't ruin other players game experience like it does in PvP where it creates imbalance. (6 hunters pew-pewing creeps in tandem)

    Anyway, I placed the six-boxer on my friends list so I would know when he was there (he was on freepside as was I.) If he was there, I was not. Many of the creeps would log out if he came on and other freeps who continued to play just ignored him, avoided him or refused to heal or rez him. Creeps would kill him & his bots and then rez camp him.

    *knock on wood* He has not been on in the Moors since SoM release. It truly caused our server's PvP to go down the tubes for a while.

    Eventually, I decided to go play creepside on another boxer-free server which it turns out has PvP that is more like the style I enjoy. SoM has brought the fun back to freepside for me and I adore my creepside friends on Landy, so the story has a happy ending.
    i dont really get the frustration over multi-boxers. to me 6 accounts=6 players. i dont really see how running into a 6-boxer would be any different from 6 players running around together. in fact it would be far easier to deal with the 6-boxer. im sure that the response would be that it is wrong that one person can control 6 different toons, but honestly, if they want to actually pay for 6 accounts, then they should be able to play 6 toons, so long as they dont break any rules.

  23. #23

    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    The 6-boxer (s?) on Brandywine don't bother me... hey, if they paid for 6 accounts, that's fine.

    It always just looks deuced ODD to me, since there's no collision detection in this game.

    Wait, is that ... two? five?

    And the one I'm thinking of has all 5 "slaves" dressed exactly the same. Makes it a bit odd when some are humans and some are hobbits... if I'm remembering that right...

    ... or maybe it was all just one race. Not sure now.

  24. #24
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    Boston
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    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by newwwwb View Post
    i dont really get the frustration over multi-boxers.
    That's because the OP mixed up the concept of legal multi-account playing, as in you control one keyboard and one mouse at a time, and the concept of illegal scripting so that you can actually move all of them at once, not to mention let all work on the same task at the same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by newwwwb View Post
    to me 6 accounts=6 players. i dont really see how running into a 6-boxer would be any different from 6 players running around together. in fact it would be far easier to deal with the 6-boxer. im sure that the response would be that it is wrong that one person can control 6 different toons, but honestly, if they want to actually pay for 6 accounts, then they should be able to play 6 toons, so long as they dont break any rules.
    This thread, except for the silly subject line, is about rule-breaking scripting.

  25. #25
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    2,560

    Re: dual boxing, triple boxing, quadruple boxing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darmokk View Post
    That's because the OP mixed up the concept of legal multi-account playing, as in you control one keyboard and one mouse at a time, and the concept of illegal scripting so that you can actually move all of them at once, not to mention let all work on the same task at the same time.


    This thread, except for the silly subject line, is about rule-breaking scripting.
    The only 'rule' as it relates to boxing is that you have to be in control.

    It gets grey though after that. You have to be incontrol of each client, so using a software program like Innerpace or KeyClone is allowed. But you cant use software to play the character for you.
    But then there are G-15 boards which do just that. G-15s are totally allowed in LOTRO.

    So its grey. You can use hardware but you cant. You can use software but you cant. Software that does actually use scripting, waypoints and automated functions IE looting is wrong. But boxers dont do that.

    In regards to the OPs boxer using scripts. Not a chance. It took me a whole 30s to create a keybinding that would effectively do that which is described.

    When I engage a boss, I dont want all five slaves standing on top of one another, so I simply press my assigned key and all five slaves will walk in different directions at the same time. No scripting, no way points. Just one key being pressed.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000000fd8b5/signature.png]Grampsith[/charsig]

 

 
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