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  1. #1

    The Gambler Guide

    I've been looking, but it doesn't seem like a systematic guide to The Gambler has been put together.

    My Burg's now up to 59, still doesn't have Dealings Done, traiting 4/3 QK/TG for a long time now, and I'm trying to figure out how to get the most out of the Gambler line. For sure I'm going to go 5 into it when I get the capstone, but I feel like I'm feeling my way in the dark as far as when & how to use skills. So much of the line involves modifying & cross-linking skills that it's hard to get a big picture feel for the spec. And all this near level 60.

    Talk about your late-blooming class.

    Anyway, does anyone have a link to anything even sorta comprehensive? I know (in theory) about using crit-chains to get a 1-minute mez, I use Provoke mez once in awhile, a 5 or 6 Lucky Strike DoT is really nice.

    What do you do with a Gambler trait when soloing, when 3-man, when skirmishing, when grouping & raiding?
    Last edited by Smashkilleat; Jan 22 2010 at 01:41 PM.
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  2. #2

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    It's not complete, but I was working on something like this a while ago. Here is what I have so far...

    What are Gambles?
    - Gambles are additional effects that can apply when a burglar uses certain skills and has slotted traits from the gambler trait line (Mainly trick removal skills. See below for a list of all 6 ways to apply gambles.)

    - Gambles can allow a burglar to do extra damage, or apply extra debuffs, or mez a creature (regardless of creature type)

    - The strength of a gamble is determined randomly when it applies. A 6 sided die rolls over the creature’s head to indicate the strength of the gamble (One = weakest. Six = strongest)

    - A burglar can only have one gamble per target at a time. If you apply a second gamble to a target that you currently have a gamble on, the new gamble will replace the older gamble. (If more than one burg is attacking, then each burg can have one gamble on the creature at any given time.)


    3 Types of Gambles
    Debuffing – Applies a 15s debuff to the target. (This debuff stacks with tricks.) [Thanks to Sneaky Snikwah for the numbers]
    - Tier 1 = +0% miss chance, +15% attack speed, -0% damage
    - Tier 2 = +05% miss chance, +20% attack speed, -0% damage
    - Tier 3 = +10% miss chance, +25% attack speed, -5% damage
    - Tier 4 = +10% miss chance, +30% attack speed, -10% damage
    - Tier 5 = +15% miss chance, +35% attack speed, -15% damage
    - Tier 6 = +20% miss chance, +40% attack speed, -30% damage

    Damaging – Applies a 15s common damage DOT. (Your damage will vary. It is lvl dependent. It is effected by might, If it is applied by gamblers strike it is effected by the crit chain damage legacy, etc. At lvl 65 my numbers are.
    - Tier 1 = 38 damage every 3s for 15s
    - Tier 2 = 61 damage every 3s for 15s
    - Tier 3 = 84 damage every 3s for 15s
    - Tier 4 = 92 damage every 3s for 15s
    - Tier 5 = 115 damage every 3s for 15s
    - Tier 6 = 153 damage every 3s for 15s

    Disabling - Mez the target. (Works on any creature type!)
    Note: Since disabling gambles have variable duration, the creature will get a 15s place holder debuff in addition to the mez. Skill that have additional effects on targets "with a gamble" will only work during the duration of the 15s place holder debuff. IE you have 15s to upgrade the mez to tier 6 with gamblers strike, or do extra damage with surprise strike, or have an increased chance to proc the crit chance debuff if you slotted the cruel odds trait, etc
    - Tier 1 = 15s Mez
    - Tier 2 = 20s Mez
    - Tier 3 = 30s Mez
    - Tier 4 = 30s Mez
    - Tier 5 = 40s Mez
    - Tier 6 = 60s Mez

    How can I apply a gamble? - There are 6 ways to apply a gamble
    1. Use Clever Retort = 25% base chance for a debuffing gamble (must have at least 2 gambler traits slotted)
    2. Use Startling Twist = 25% base chance for a damaging gamble (must have at least 3 gambler traits slotted)
    3. Use Mischevious Glee = 25% base chance for a disabling gamble (must have at least 4 gambler traits slotted)
    4. Use provoke from stealth = 60% base chance for a disabling gamble (must have leaf walker trait slotted)
    5. Use the burgle skill = 60% base chance for a debuffing gamble (must have footpad trait slotted)
    6. Use Lucky Strike/Gamblers Strike = 100% chance to apply a damaging gamble (Assuming the gamble is not resisted) Note: If the target currently has another gamble on it then Gambler’s Strike will upgrade it into a freshly applied tier 6 version of that gamble! This is NASTY!

    How can I increase my chance to apply gambles?
    There are lots of ways to increase the chance to apply a gamble. A burglar that is traited and geared is MUCH more effective at applying gambles. (Chance for most gambles to apply jumps up to 95% instead of the base 25%)
    +1%-20% burglar tools legacy
    +10% slot dealings done legendary trait (awarded for completing Book 2 Chapter 6 of the epic storyline)
    +40% bonus for 30s after you land a devastating critical (must have at least 4 gambler traits slotted)

    How can I make good use of gambles?
    Gambler’s Strike (Upgraded version of Lucky Strike when the legendary trait dealing done in slotted
    This skill is incredible! If you don’t have a gamble on the target it will apply a damaging gamble (Random strength but weighted chance towards higher tier) However its real power is the ability to increase the strength of a current gamble to tier 6. It takes some practice to get the timing down but you can
    - Use startling twist to apply a random strength damaging gamble. Let the DOT run most of its 15s, then hit the mob with Gamblers Strike to upgrade to a brand new 15s tier 6 damaging gamble
    - Use clever retort to apply a random strength debuffing gamble. Let the debuff run most of its 15s duration and then hit the mob with Gambler’s strike to upgrade to a brand new 15s tier 6 debuffing gamble
    - Use mischievous glee to apply a random strength disabling (mez) gamble. You now have 15s to run up your crit chain and hit the mob with gamblers strike to apply a brand new tier 6 disabling gamble. 60s mez!

    Surprise strike: If you have 3+ gambler traits slotted then surprise strike does an extra 200+ damage everytime you use it on a target with a gamble. Since surprise strike is on a 10s cooldown this is basically an extra 20dps! If the target has a gamble on it and surprise strike is ready - spam it! Note: If you have gambler strike (slot legendary trait dealing done) and a legendary weapon with the corresponding cooldown legacy, then gamblers strike will be on a 15s cooldown. Since gambles last for 15s you should always have a gamble on your target!

    Quiet Knife/leafwalker combo for disabling (mez) gambles
    - If you slot leafwalker, then using provoke from stealth has a 60% to start a disabling (mez) gamble (80% with tools legacy maxed)
    - If you trait 5 deep in the quiet knife trait line and slot the capstone legendary (practiced bluff) then your next attack after improved feint attack is considered to be "from stealth"
    - This means that you can use provoke to start a disabling (mez) gamble even when you arent actually in stealth. Just use it right after improved feint attack (of course you need to have leaf walker slotted too)
    - If your weapon has the feint attack cooldown legacy maxed then you can use improved feint attack followed by provoke to try to start a dsiabling (mez) gamble every 15s. This is really powerful!
    Last edited by Mystarr; Jan 10 2010 at 01:10 PM.
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  3. #3

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Thanks, Mystarr, that's exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for. I think you should post all that in a new thread, get some feedback to fill in the missing data, then go for the sticky. Burglar stickies are getting pretty dated up there.
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  4. #4
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    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystarr View Post
    - The strength of a gamble is determined randomly when it applies. A 6 sided die rolls over the creature’s head to indicate the strength of the gamble (One = weakest. Six = strongest)
    A debuff icon also appears under the targets portrait window along with any other debuffs like reveal weakness, counter-defense, etc. The icon will have a number in the center to show the gambles level. It's been a while since I used it, but I seem to recall the debuffing gamble was yellow, damaging red, and the mezz gamble shows up the same as other mezzes.
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  5. #5
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    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Great post MyStarr! I just wanted to throw some of my experiences/thoughts with the Gambler (though I'm not quite as skilled with it):

    Timing is Key:

    Usually I'd like to wait until I get the Devastate Crit. buff before throwing my first gamble (unless you're doing the provoke mez/burgle debuff to start). It royally sucks to pop a potential gamble starter only to not have it come up and then you have to wait 45s for ST/MG to cooldown. (Clever Retort can be up to 2 min.) Also get into the habit of upgrading the gamble with Gambler's Stirke as MyStarr mentioned before the 15 sec. are up for maximum benefit. Once you get the timing down, it helps a lot!


    Dictate the pace of the fight:

    Like any group instances/raids, communication is key for effectiveness especially in TG. Since TG has great CC ability, you don't want anyone breaking your mezzes. As well, use the appropriate gamble for the situation. Throw a debuff gamble on hard hitting bosses to ease pressure off the tank/healers. If you need to burn the mob down quickly, throw the damage gamble. Most importantly, don't panic! ^^

    Did I say CC?:

    Having the ability to mez any creature type is invaluable. If you're fighting humanoid/intelligent mobs though then you become near godly. You can mez up to 7 targets (I think....with traited Confound) within a short time frame which will surely impress your fellowship!

    Hope this helps!
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  6. #6

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    I wrote this a while back for the new Burgs wondering if they should start gambling.

    Mystarr, you might want to check but the debuffs were right back in October.





    Quote Originally Posted by Sneaky_Snikwah View Post
    Basically, you can only get acess to using gambles by sloting traits in "The Gambler" line. But none of these really become available till the mid 30's.
    Slotting 2,3,4 & 5 traits in the "TG" will give you even more gambler options and at Level 56 you will get Luckystrike which is the first skill to just give you a gamble outright.



    Gambler Trait examples:

    FOOTPAD: " Your Stealth is more subtle, making you harder to detect. In addition, Burgle has a 60% chance to apply a Debuffing Gamble."

    This can be acheived by using diversion 500 times. You might get this done in your mid 20's if you spam it alot. But more likely you will get this in your 30's

    So every guy you burgle, when you have footpad traited, will give you a 60% chance of a applying a debuffing gamble. If you can try this one a few times if you don't get noticed. When the gamble is applied, a dice it rolled. A result from 1 -6 will give a weak to strong debuff that lasts for 15s

    level 1 00% miss chance +15% attack speed & 00% damage decrease.
    level 2 05% miss chance +20% attack speed & 00% damage decrease.
    level 3 10% miss chance +25% attack speed & 05% damage decrease.
    level 4 10% miss chance +30% attack speed & 10% damage decrease.
    level 5 15% miss chance +35% attack speed & 15% damage decrease.
    level 6 20% miss chance +40% attack speed & 30% damage decrease.

    LEAFWALKER: "Your Stealth is hastened, allowing you to move more quickly while sneaking. In addition, Provoke from Stealth has a 60% chance to apply a Disabling Gamble."

    This can be acheived by using Hide In Plain Sight 250 times. You might get this done in your mid 30's if you spam it A LOT! But some don't get it dont till there late 40's

    A disabling gamble will mezz your target from 10-60s. There is supposed to be a stun in there aswell but it's a bit confusing if that works or not.



    The 3rd type of gamble is a damaging gamble (which will apply a DoT). You can 100% garantee one of these using lucky strike (L56) but it it could still be weak -strong depending on the dice roll. I'm estimating a level 6 strong gamble does about 600 damage over 15s. It might have been reduced in the last book. Teir 4 just gave me 66damage every 3s for 15s a and teir 3 gave 66



    Now buy slotting other traits like side step, Honed wit and Swift and subtle you can also get 25% chance to have.....

    Clever retort give a debuffing gamble.
    Startling twist give a damaging gamble
    Suprise strike add ~200 damage when a gamble is active.
    MG MEZ any type of mob.
    Plus another 40% chance if you have recently had a devistating crit.

    Legacies can increase you gamble chance up to a point that the gamble is more about whether you get a strong or weak gamble. As apposed to if you get one at all.



    So don't worry about it at your low level. Just choose the traits you like since you don't have much scope for bonuses for a long time.


    Cheers
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  7. #7

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    The gamber line to me is 75% a CC build and 25% a DPS build. Thats assuming you are using lucky strike. If you make a 4/3 G/MM build its (Potentially!) more CC or some other generic group support build (less dpsish).

    There are so many ways to pick the traits for these sorts of setups that its hard to outline what might be BEST in general (although best for a specific task is not so hard) or to recommend a playstyle. Yet I will try for a bit.

    ***First, for ANY gamble build, there is a question you must answer right away. Do you want to stealth or mischief mode? I will refer back to this often!

    Stealth / MM have an effect on several things: If you use stealth, you very much want to use the clever retort trait, so you can use that skill without mischief. If you do not use stealth, you may skip this trait or not (it still cuts the cooldown by a ton -- you now have a choice). Stealth users want to consider leafwalker for the mez, MM users will always skip that trait. Stealth users will consider the burgle gamble trait, MM users will always skip that.

    Even the odds and Overwhelming odds are both lackluster. ETO is great when you need to tank (TNG over and over for a while) or in some group circumstances but even at its best its mostly a wasted trait for any generic build -- and very useful for a build to deal with a specific circumstance. OO is simply too weak to ever use IMO. This cuts your choice of 8 traits to 6. If you have to have 5 of them for lucky, and if you want to run mischief mode, you are already going to struggle from this point on -- you will take something stealth based or nearly worthless in your setup, probably at least 2 of your 5 traits will be weak.

    The remaining traits all have a decent kick to them:
    Swift & subtle: adds to your subtle stab a small amount of damage, this is multiplied up if you carry a stab legacy on your weapon (it increases the base damage which is what the legacy helps). Dps, even a small amount, is not a bad thing.

    Side Step: Exrta evade chance, this trait sits nicely with stick & move to keep your crit chain open in a build that is 400 ish less critical rating than QK builds.

    Cruel odds: A poor man's replacement for opportunist, or in a raw dps build you can stack the two, to provide 2% more crit chance to your entire group/raid. Total with opportunist is 8% (!!).

    ---------------------
    So a baseline build is shaping up already, for any gambler:
    cruel odds, side step, swift & subtle, honed wit -- Now you have unlocked everything except lucky strike and are still pretty much good to go whether you use stealth or not.

    Going for a dps setup with lucky strike, you can grab leafwalker and, if you prefer it, remove one trait (probably side step) to get footpad which increases your suprise strike. For my DPS gambler build, I would from here go with opportunist (lots and lots of crits stacked with cruel odds...) and your favorite other 2 traits from anywhere. I personally would go with aim cooldown from QK as one of those two. If you were running mischief and going for dps & lucky strike, instead of leafwalker you have to choose one of the other traits -- however I personally would *still* take leafwalker so you can HIPS/MEZ or something, because I simply find no value in the other options for soloing.

    A utility build with M-maker traits would be fairly different. You want cruel odds for the group wide bonus, honed wit, side step (offtank and crit chain which applies cruel odds...), and probably even the odds so you can FM to reset TNG more often, tied to 3 strong MM traits: opportunist (group crit bonus), Confound (4 targets mezzed in 5 seconds with a legendary!) and complicated terms (to make mez resist less). If crowd control is not important, swap out for trickster or disable or enrage or whatever appropriate yellow traits. You may not even want 3 MM traits, since the goal of having 3 is to get the free 5 second riddle boost, so a QK or extra TG trait may be more appropriate to grant lucky strike. On a boss as a utility gambler, for example, you want to have: one trick boosted by MM trait, cruel odds, one gamble(not mez, so clever retort debuff or the bleeds), for a 500k morale or more boss you want traited reveal weakness up, and the rest of your traits would be dpsish so you can help do damage while you maintain these effects which means using lucky strike both for dps and to extend the duration of the clever retort debuff.

    So whats left? The ultra CC gambler build of course! Here is a quick breakdown.

    You must use mischief mode (its simply better CC, all you get with stealth is 1 provoke and 1 riddle!), you get: confound (4 targets max traited), riddle (one target, chained), glee-mez (one target, can reapply, random duration can mean not chained). Thats a total of 6 targets, 1 sustainable and 1 semi-sustainable. You can drop mischief mode after 35 or so seconds (confound is on a 5 min cooldown and you riddle, riddle, drop MM, and riddle a final time before the riddle pool is dry) and hips to get a 7th target (repeat with cooldowns to maintain this target somewhat). Total is 7 targets possible and 3 of them potentially locked down for a long time with repeatable skills, 4 of them up and running after 30 seconds. (OR you can blow your hips resets twice to get 9 targets right away with luck, and then they will all be up because you cannot chain anything, you are out of toys).

    Lot of rambling thoughts there, but its basically how I use the build for 3 different things (quasi dps, support, or CC machine), maybe some of it helped.
    Last edited by forusrname; Jan 07 2010 at 10:28 AM.
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  8. #8
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    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystarr View Post
    Surprise strike: If you have 3+ gambler traits slotted then surprise strike does an extra 200+ damage everytime you use it on a target with a gamble. Since surprise strike is on a 10s cooldown this is basically an extra 20dps! If the target has a gamble on it and surprise strike is ready - spam it! Note: If you have gambler strike (slot legendary trait dealing done) and a legendary weapon with the corresponding cooldown legacy, then gamblers strike will be on a 15s cooldown. Since gambles last for 15s you should always have a gamble on your target!
    Quick addition before before I go do some RL... I don't know if anybody noticed, but the suprise strike bonus damage scaled in SoM! It hits for around 237 now, and also gained the ability to crit.

  9. #9
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    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by forusrname View Post
    Cruel odds: A poor man's replacement for opportunist, or in a raw dps build you can stack the two, to provide 2% more crit chance to your entire group/raid. Total with opportunist is 8% (!!).
    Only if your entire group/raid is doing melee attacks. The debuff to b/p/e is great, but crit chance only applies to melee attacks.
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  10. #10

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    One observation on Legendary item support for Gambler's Strike -

    I've had weapons with maxed Gambler's Strike cooldown of 15sec although the rest of the legacies weren't very good. For a long time, I considred the GS cooldown mandatory for a LI when planning to go 5 Gambler.

    I've got a very good club now that, (unfortunately), doesn't have GS cooldown, but even with a 1min cooldown, I finding that going 5 Gambler is still very viable.

    You still get:
    - +10% gamble chance
    - You can still "chain mez" with glee and GS for 1min at a time. Trick/Glee to get the gamble, then ramp up the crit chain and hit GS for a 1min mez. The 1min cooldown on GS matches up perfectly with the mez duration.
    - GS is generally still always available to upgrade your twist gamble which have a 45s cooldown, or your Clever Retort which is 90-120s

    What you lose is the ability to work GS into your crit chain every 15sec for DPS, but I found that I got a little overzealous about that when I had the 15sec cooldown anyway, hitting GS on things that were half-dead and fell over in 5 more seconds.

    I now just use FB and save Gambler's Strike as a utility to upgrade gambles and it works very well. FB is a little less damage on average, but it's instant and more power efficient.
    Last edited by spoctordoc; Jan 08 2010 at 01:58 PM. Reason: Changed Lucky Strike to Gambler's Strike, reflecting the traited name of the skill

  11. #11

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Here's an opening sequence of the gods. Maximum damage:

    --- SNEAK + Diversion + RW + Aim + LIE + Well Placed Strike

    This is just a pretty, normal opening. Note, however, that AIM forces a critical hit, making WPS start ticking off a giant bleed (every tick of the bleed is a crit). It also opens up your crit chain.

    --- Disable + Improved Startling Twist + Counter Defense

    If you're traited right, Improved Startling Twist will more often than not execute a damaging gamble. You should still have enough time to execute your crit chain:

    --- BA + DES + Gambler's Strike

    There. You've just upgraded your damaging gamble to Tier 6 (or created some type of damaging gamble, if it didn't fire on IST). Finally:

    --- Cunning Attack

    At level 65, if all goes well, you should now have about 250-300 DPS in bleeds alone, and since most of this was done prior to your first attack or after the stun, you're still at very near 100% morale.

    I use this all the time. It's a devastating opening combo.

  12. #12
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    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxSydney View Post
    Note, however, that AIM forces a critical hit, making WPS start ticking off a giant bleed (every tick of the bleed is a crit). It also opens up your crit chain.
    Is that actually true about WPS critting on every tick? I've tried Aim + WPS, thinking it'd work like Aim + CA, but didn't notice any difference in damage.
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  13. #13
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    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Another thing to note, not sure if it's been mentioned in the MWoTs above, but Lucky Strike will not do anything (upgrade) an existing Tier 6 gamble. It's better to leave the gamble run out or replace it with another one of a lower tier before using Lucky Strike.
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  14. #14

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by BroadwayJizzie View Post
    Another thing to note, not sure if it's been mentioned in the MWoTs above, but Lucky Strike will not do anything (upgrade) an existing Tier 6 gamble. It's better to leave the gamble run out or replace it with another one of a lower tier before using Lucky Strike.
    Lucky strike (the untraited version) wont do anything. Its not supposed to do anything. However, if you use gamblers strike on an existing tier 6 gamble I believe it resets the 15s duration (IE it starts a new tier 6 gamble)

    ------------------

    Edit: I stand corrected. Gambler's strike doesnt do anything (aside from its normal damage) if the target already has a tier 6 gamble on it. Thanks for the tip!
    Last edited by Mystarr; Jan 11 2010 at 05:46 PM.
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  15. #15

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by ANewMachine View Post
    Is that actually true about WPS critting on every tick? I've tried Aim + WPS, thinking it'd work like Aim + CA, but didn't notice any difference in damage.
    Aim+WPS definitely works. You get a crit for every single tic of the DoT portion, plus the crit on the opening hit. However, unlike with CA, the tooltip on the icon shows only the regular damage, not the crit. To see the effect of Aim on WPS, you have to look in your combat log, or watch the big yellow numbers on-screen.
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  16. #16
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    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Smashkilleat View Post
    Aim+WPS definitely works. You get a crit for every single tic of the DoT portion, plus the crit on the opening hit. However, unlike with CA, the tooltip on the icon shows only the regular damage, not the crit. To see the effect of Aim on WPS, you have to look in your combat log, or watch the big yellow numbers on-screen.
    Good to know. Guess I know how to deal with LTs and Encounter bosses in skirmishes now.
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  17. #17

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Here are some interesting numbers on the debuffing capabilites of a gambler traited burg

    74% damage = untraited disable (for baseline purposes)

    67% damage = traited disable (for baseline purposes)

    87% damage = tier 1 debuffing gamble (only last 15s )
    79% damage = tier 2 debuffing gamble (only last 15s )
    68% damage = tier 3 debuffing gamble (only last 15s )
    62% damage = tier 4 debuffing gamble (only last 15s )
    54% damage = tier 5 debuffing gamble (only last 15s )
    40% damage = tier 6 debuffing gamble (only last 15s )

    - I can let the random gamble run almost 15s and then use gamblers strike to restart it at tier 6 (total of almost 30s of continuous debuffing gambles)

    - If I get teir 3 or higher (most of the time) my disabling gamble is as good or better than traited disable

    - I can put traited counter defense on the mob at the same time.
    (Assuming I have it traited of course.. )

    - I can put reveal weakness on the mob at the same time (+8% or +10% damage)

    - I can keep an addle debuff on the mob that slows inductions by 25% (75% with legacies)

    I wonder what happens if I want to focus on defense and stack disable with the debuffing gamble...
    65% damage = tier 1 debuffing gamble (only last 15s ) & untraited disable
    60% damage = tier 2 debuffing gamble (only last 15s ) & untraited disable
    51% damage = tier 3 debuffing gamble (only last 15s ) & untraited disable
    47% damage = tier 4 debuffing gamble (only last 15s ) & untraited disable
    40% damage = tier 5 debuffing gamble (only last 15s ) & untraited disable
    28% damage = tier 6 debuffing gamble (only last 15s ) & untraited disable SWEET

    59% damage = tier 1 debuffing gamble (only last 15s ) & traited disable
    54% damage = tier 2 debuffing gamble (only last 15s ) & traited disable
    47% damage = tier 3 debuffing gamble (only last 15s ) & traited disable
    42% damage = tier 4 debuffing gamble (only last 15s ) & traited disable
    36% damage = tier 5 debuffing gamble (only last 15s ) & traited disable
    25% damage = tier 6 debuffing gamble (only last 15s ) & traited disable WOW!

    Sure that gamble isnt up all the time, but I can use clever retort to get a random strength gamble for 15s & then wait until it almost expires and use gamblers strike to up it to tier 6 for another 15s...

    Clever retort is on a 90s cooldown (Im a gambler so I have honed wit slotted)
    47% damage for 10-15 seconds from traited disable and the random gamble (assuming I only got a tier 3 gamble)
    25% damage for 15 seconds from traited disable and the tier 6 upgrade
    67% damage for 60-65 seconds from traited disable while I wait for clever retort to come back up

    Not shabby

    -----------------------------
    PS If I started the fight with a disabling gamble from burgle (need to have footpad slotted), and then up it to tier 6, and then drop a new disabling gamble with honed wit, and then up it to tier 6... thats pretty much 60s of continous debuffing gambles!
    Merridan - Burglar lvl 105 (Rank 12)
    Gormadan - Minstrel lvl 105 (Rank 4) : Traldan - Captain lvl 105 : Celebdan - Weaver (Rank 11)

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    139

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    A disabling gamble is basically several debuff tricks rolled into one: Miss chance, attack speed slow, and actual damage decrease, with the ability to add a trick on top of all that.

    I think most people just have no idea what gambles do and are too close-minded to realize how powerful the Gambler line actually is.

    I have a 95% chance to apply gambles basically all of the time once I begin combat, with the 1 minute Gambler Devastating Buff duration being refreshed regularly.

    I have a 100% chance to apply Provoke Mezz and Burgle Debuff from stealth with the Devastating Crit buff active.

    People say Gambler is risky, but at 95% and 100% chance to apply for a full minute after a devastating crit, I just do not see it.

    The Gambler in SoM is an extremely powerful and versatile trait set for Burglars who invest in the proper LI's.

  19. #19

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Its not the risk, for me. Its the cooldowns leading to the precise timing of lucky strike.

    Lets talk that debuffing gamble then -- you can apply it every 30 seconds if you traited for it (and you would, its a good gambler trait). But you have a 50% chance of it being sort of weak. Now, you stick that on the boss, and its time to mez your other target (or handle whatever other distraction), so you do that, takes 5 seconds to find and move close and deal with this, then you rush back and hit aim and work thru the chain --- and its dicy (get it?) whether you make it back in time to crit chain to LS and refresh that debuff or not. If you make it, the buff has a "nearly" 100% up time until some distraction prevents application. But you have to watch it like a hawk to maintain this and the fights where it is needed most tend to be 10-30 min in length, you are micromanaging every 30 seconds for 30 min in this case! And, every time you goof it up, it cuts off 15 seconds of uptime -- up to epic fail of 50% uptime. 50% uptime of the ultimate debuff is GREAT, except its not ultimate at this point, its average, only 50% of that 50% is going to be the really good version. So now its down to 25% uptime. With perfect play, you have 50% uptime of the ultimate debuff and no one is going to argue that its not powerful. With less perfect play, this goes down rapidly and quickly goes from uber to "decent" -- worth doing but nothing to write home about.

    Now put all that into context -- going old school because everyone knows these fights -- lets talk watcher and BO fights. Watcher, the normal approach is for the burg to disable the head, reveal the tentacles, counter the tentacles, and dps the tentacles, removing corruptions on the head if needed and starting (mostly power restore) FMS to feed the hunters or something. In all that stuff, you are now throwing on a requirement to be on the watcher head precisely in time to do a crit chain (again, lets assume you saved aim for this task) to upgrade your debuff to maintain it (which removes a trick, causing a very low risk to your emergency decorruption job). Thats pretty intense timing. Or take the BO, assuming your raid decides your debuff is worth going into his aura at all. You run into the aura and stay there in phase 1, and it pays off -- if a hunter or rk or something pulls aggro, he now hits much more softly, this is awesome. In phase 2 its similar, and you keep him addled too, great, so far you have soaked about 30k worth of heals in order to protect any light armor noob that has pulled aggro. Then phase 3 hits and its run in, refresh debuff (take big damage), run out (sometimes anyway) to gamble mez an add, riddle, etc, back in to refresh.... it is going to be suicide to attempt to maintain the debuff at this point and you are better off staying back to CC. But odds are this does not happen, what probably really happens is you get told to stay the heck out of the aura entirely and let the tanks do their job, while you wait for phase 2 to addle and intercept bugs on the way to the healers and phase 3 to CC the adds.

    For lesser fights, unless you are into pugging, the debuff is easy to maintain but making an easy fight easy is sort of pointless. The turtle, for example, you could certainly keep it up 100% of the time, but the turtles damage would not impress a level 40 character, its the environmental aura that matters. And even the harder 6 mans, its just not necessary to go to this much effort because the tanks and healers, unless incompetent, can handle it with ease without your help. It has some merit in various situations, take krankkabob or whatever the warg boss' name is --- except a very large amount of that mob's dps is from debuffs (bleed, poision) which he reapplys too fast to pot out of so the debuff is marginal. Or take SG, 2 of the bosses do no damage at all (lightning rod boss and Gorwhatever both hardly do any dps). It would be moderately useful on the first boss, but here again, the first boss is more of a gimmick (dont get enviro flamed, cure the wounds, run out if you get stun eye) and a dps race (QK!) than a hard hitting, debuff or the tank dies sort of fight.

    So, maybe I undervalue this tool (and, I am a fan of the gambler lineup, but being a fan and spending 1/3 of moria learning to play it and make it work I also understand its weakness pretty well) but to me, its difficult to use when we most need it -- inversely, the easier the fight and the less we need it, the more we can maintain the debuff. It certainly would be an awesome technique for pugs, new content, or fervour champ tanking and is probably at its best in the 3 man instances with a fervour tank, that would be an awesome setup. It is possibly ultra good for broken groups (all burgs, no healer, etc oddball runs). It may work on some of the new raid stuff, so far, I have not seen all the fights and cannot say if one would get enough benefit from the technique to justify going there. Probably, there is at least one approacable and semi-stationary hard hitting boss (like the stationary runestone boss of DN) that can benefit from the setup. But on a daily basis, its mostly a toy or a seldom useful tool, whatever words you want to use to describe that.
    Draegon:
    "stack all the morale you want but dont come on here wonderin why you aint hittin hard! :D"

  20. #20

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Actually you cant apply the debuffing gamble every 30s. Clever retort is on a 90s cooldown even when it is traited. So in prolonged fight you are really only talking about it being up 1/3 of the time. (Roughly 15s at random strength from debuffing gamble and then an extra 15s at tier 6 from the gamblers strike upgrade. Then 60s without the debuff while you wait for the cooldown)

    Solo = On small mobs none of the discussion of traits really matters because they die so quick you are only looking at a few seconds difference in kill time no matter how you trait. On big mobs this debuff can definitely ease your pain. Not to mention the CC ability of gambler makes it a really good solo build.

    Groups = I agree that most 6 man content can be done without any debuffs at all by a good group. (They just make things easier.) On 3 man content they can actually be important.

    Raids = The gambler's debuffs are useful in raids. Maybe not optimal but useful. (See below)
    - put counterdefense on the boss for the 30s while I have the debuffing gamble in effect
    - switch to even the untraited version of counter defense for the 60s that I cant keep the debuffing gamble on the boss
    - rinse and repeat

    Upshot I will mitigate more damage than a burg that keeps traited counterdefense on the boss the whole time AND I can also put counter defense on the boss for 30s out of ever 90s while I am at it.

    What do I do during the 60s that I dont have a debuffing gamble going? I Keep the DOT gambles on the boss and use surprise strike for extra damage.

    Watcher: I spend the last phase of the watcher fight camped out behind the watcher head so I usually trait QK for that fight (I think the positional damage bonus is more important than the extra debuffing potential)

    blind one/mistress These two fights are very rough on a gambler burg. Both bosses are immune to common damage so you DOT gambles are worthless. IMO Its not worth running into the blind one's aura for the legth of time it would take execute these gambles. A burg is prob better off using CC on the blind one images and using addle from a range on the blind one.
    Last edited by Mystarr; Jan 12 2010 at 03:00 PM.
    Merridan - Burglar lvl 105 (Rank 12)
    Gormadan - Minstrel lvl 105 (Rank 4) : Traldan - Captain lvl 105 : Celebdan - Weaver (Rank 11)

  21. #21

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Not sure what traited CD or not has to do with it, did you mean traited disable? Either way, thats a solid point (you can put up either traited disable or traited CD or any other trick traited or not and still drop the gamble debuff, depends on the needs of the group). So its even less uptime, I always get the durations mixed up, anything over 20 second cooldown I don't time, I just hit it when the icon tells me its ready.

    I guess I am trying to visualize a fight where gamble debuff would make enough of a difference to say wow, look what we can do, that was a lot easier, and drawing a blank. I must be used to uber tanks & healers...
    Draegon:
    "stack all the morale you want but dont come on here wonderin why you aint hittin hard! :D"

  22. #22

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by forusrname View Post
    Not sure what traited CD or not has to do with it, did you mean traited disable? Either way, thats a solid point (you can put up either traited disable or traited CD or any other trick traited or not and still drop the gamble debuff, depends on the needs of the group). So its even less uptime, I always get the durations mixed up, anything over 20 second cooldown I don't time, I just hit it when the icon tells me its ready.

    I guess I am trying to visualize a fight where gamble debuff would make enough of a difference to say wow, look what we can do, that was a lot easier, and drawing a blank. I must be used to uber tanks & healers...
    I was mainly trying to show how the gamble debuff compares to disable. (Since disable is usually considered a pretty good debuff.) The gamble debuff has 3 components so without doing some number crunching its not obvious how it compares to our other debuffs.

    Then I pointed out some ways you can use the gambler debuff since you can stack it with your choice of debuff from a trick.
    - Use traited counter defense and get the benefit of good offensive and defensive debuffs at the same time
    OR
    - stack the gambler debuff with disable and all but shut down a mobs offense for 15s to 30s

    Is any of this going to change the world? Not by a long shot, but if that is your standard of measure then debuffs are all going to fall short. You can do pretty much any fight in the game without debuffs, but if you are going to use debuffs the gambler gives you some nice options that some people may not be aware of.
    Last edited by Mystarr; Jan 13 2010 at 02:36 PM.
    Merridan - Burglar lvl 105 (Rank 12)
    Gormadan - Minstrel lvl 105 (Rank 4) : Traldan - Captain lvl 105 : Celebdan - Weaver (Rank 11)

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    157

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    I enjoy playing the gambler line, but I think the debuffing gamble from clever retort needs some love. It should last longer. 30 seconds out of every 90 is not enough. IMO, they should increase the duration to 45 sec and lower the debuffs so that it does not become too powerful. That way you could keep it on a mob for 60 out of every 90 seconds. Either that or fashion it more like the disabling gambles such that the debuff is constant, but the length of time is based on the tier of the gamble.
    Last edited by batou22; Jan 13 2010 at 07:06 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/08207000000062e1b/signature.png]Wildor[/charsig]

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Huntsville(Rocket City)~Alabama
    Posts
    624

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    I need to bump this because I use this thread many times as I cannot remember stuff for my burg and I do not want this thread to be pruned
    Nevanna~Lynxa~Amasal~Lagurtha~ Hybiscuits
    "I am rather tired, and no longer young enough to pillage the night to make up for the deficit of hours in the day..." JRR Tolkien, Letter # 174

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    The Megadebacleopolis known as Houston
    Posts
    2,019

    Re: The Gambler Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by knowfere View Post
    I need to bump this because I use this thread many times as I cannot remember stuff for my burg and I do not want this thread to be pruned
    good call - very helpful stuff... especially for a burg that *finally* got Gambler's Strike.

    thanks to all who contributed advice and discussion in this thread when it was going on.
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