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  1. #1
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    Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    So most people build with at least Strong Draw, which means Pen > RoA is typically cheaper than IMS in terms of focus (5 to 6 -- 4 to 6 if you trait Arrow Storm too) but even with everything untraited, the focus cost is equal. Granted, actual power cost favors IMS, but unless you need the corruption removal, IMS is only beneficial if you crit.

    I went thru a bunch of the parses I've put together over the past couple months and tabulated my numbers for Pen, RoA & IMS, here's what I found:

    Live Averages
    Pen>RoA: 765.64
    IMS: 725.38

    Pen>RoA wins by 40.26 points (542 Pens, 152 RoAs, 85 IMSs)

    Beta Averages
    Pen>RoA: 726.64
    IMS: 730.24

    RoA wins by only 3.6 points (710 Pens, 265 RoAs, 51 IMSs)

    And that's only counting 1 hit per RoA, so if you have multiple mobs (and AoE is allowed), Pen>RoA pulls ahead even more.

    Also, IMS isn't affected by oils, so if you're getting more damage from fire or light oil, that adds to the gap (the numbers ahead are strictly w/o oil)

    (note, I haven't looked at why IMS fared better in relation on beta.)


    If RoA is on cooldown, or you can't use AOEs, IMS is still worthwhile. Obviously, if you need the corruption removal, IMS is our only option. But in many cases where we would use IMS, we're actually further ahead much of the time using Pen>RoA. One other exception would be if you had enough focus for Pen>IMS. That comes out ahead.. but then again, if that were the case, you could do Pen>ISB > Pen.

    IMS is like HS's faster little brother. They both occasionally give some big, pretty numbers for people to ooh & ahh over, but neither really pulls its weight in the DPS department.
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
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  2. #2
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    but it doz teh bitg dps lol

    /#######_off

    The one thing MS has going for it is it's DPS. It is the highest DPS skill we have. However, I've been convinced for a long time that the opportunity cost of using it is too high for the amount of damage it does. PS > RoA costs (for me) 2/3 of the Focus and does equivalent damage on a single target. About the only time I'll use MS instead of (or in addition to) RoA is if I'm planning on hitting IC right afterwards, so the Focus cost doesn't matter.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    IMS is like HS's faster little brother. They both occasionally give some big, pretty numbers for people to ooh & ahh over, but neither really pulls its weight in the DPS department.
    In sustained fights, like raids, I rarely if ever use IMS. To me IMS is just a possible good single target finisher. Comes in handy in the Moors and when finishing off PvE trash. That's about it really, especially if you are rolling something other than Bowmaster.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    Buff the base damage by 50%, reduce the crit payout to that of normal skills, change the trait to add a 50% crit chance (rather than payout). This way, it becomes useful and consistent while traited or untraited.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  6. #6
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    1st of all...

    2nd, I think you scared him right away SB.. and he took his post with him.
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

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  7. #7
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    I *want* to like IMS, I really do. It's one of the most power-efficient skills we have, but the combination of 6 focus and 50% morale requirement means I almost never use it.

    Dumping 2/3 of your max focus on one skill and spamming Quick Shot to build it back up again isn't as damage efficient as maintaining an ISB > PS > QS > PS > QS > PS focus burn rotation. On Live, and without a crit, MS hits for something around 700-800 in a raid. Not worth it when I can squeeze out PS > RoA > PS for the same focus cost (traited HM) and do far more damage barring an unlikely MS crit.

    My suggestion for Improved Merciful Shot is to remove the morale requirement to fire it, but give it a +30% crit chance when the mob is below 50% health. That way we get a corruption removal before the bottom half of the fight, and the extra crit chance would go a long way towards improving the average damage of the skill.
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  8. #8
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    Quote Originally Posted by rawlingsst7 View Post
    My suggestion for Improved Merciful Shot is to remove the morale requirement to fire it, but give it a +30% crit chance when the mob is below 50% health. That way we get a corruption removal before the bottom half of the fight, and the extra crit chance would go a long way towards improving the average damage of the skill.
    Hmm, that'd be interesting. I like SB's suggestion of just making it a stronger, and higher crit chance skill, rather than just having a higher crit damage factor. But I think your idea is one of the best I've seen for addressing our corruption removal problem. Make the pre-50% health IMS not worth using for DPS, but allow its use for corruption removal, then at 50%, let it do significantly more damage (on average). They could gate the +crit factor at 50% along with the +crit chance too.
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    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
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  9. #9
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    1st of all...

    2nd, I think you scared him right away SB.. and he took his post with him.
    I should probably be nicer... but if you don't shame them, they won't learn anything.

    But... on the topic, any number of things can be done, to make the skill worthy. Personally, I would like to see MS and Heartseeker given a good review. The farther away we get from SoA, the more we need some skills and traits reviewed.
    [CENTER][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [/COLOR] [/CENTER]

  10. #10
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    I should probably be nicer... but if you don't shame them, they won't learn anything.
    This is the hunter forums, we keep the torch of math lit.



    (also to oven of pies, and the sunbeam of lolcats. but I digress.

    or both:

    )
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  11. #11
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    IMO, the beta numbers are exactly where they should be: No worse off than PS+RoA (but faster), at approximately the same cost, with a potential payoff of higher damage.

    It should be affected by oils, though. All our ranged skills should be.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    I see the skill as really only being worth the cost in the Moors, when you need to spike someone down either to surprise them, or because they're going to leave range within your next attack.

    It's one of the many skills in the game I suspect the devs think is better than it actually is.

    The part that frustrates me is that our corruption removal is tied to the skill, which makes zero sense. Were it just a highly situational skill with a highly situational trait, that would be less annoying.

  13. #13

    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    You can almost always get more damage via PS/RoA than you can via IMS for less focus. The skill sucks. Maybe if it cost less focus or if the max for focus was higher it would have a use, or if the trait actually increased it's chance to crit as opposed to the magnitude. Neither will happen, however.
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  14. #14

    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    Darn, now I'll never know what was supposed to be before the amusing You/Point graphic. What did I miss?

    Quote Originally Posted by atteSmythe View Post
    IMO, the beta numbers are exactly where they should be: No worse off than PS+RoA (but faster), at approximately the same cost, with a potential payoff of higher damage.

    It should be affected by oils, though. All our ranged skills should be.
    I'd be a very happy camper if everything was properly effected by oils.
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  15. #15
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    Quote Originally Posted by atteSmythe View Post
    It should be affected by oils, though. All our ranged skills should be.

    Indeed. I'd love to hear a reason why this is not the case. The reasons as to why we inexplicably auto wash the oil from the arrow ... even for those hunters who do not carry oil wash.

    Anyway, the only time IMS sees regular (and by that I mean almost every single time it's up) use on my part is during the 3rd phase of the Blind One fight for corruption removal. Otherwise the opportunity cost of the skill loses out as has been amply illustrated.

    I very much like rawlingsst7's idea for the skill; props for solid thinking on that one.

  16. #16
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    ...I think you scared him right away SB.. and he took his post with him.
    I was wondering what the hell that was about. Seems I missed something.

    Quote Originally Posted by rawlingsst7 View Post
    My suggestion for Improved Merciful Shot is to remove the morale requirement to fire it, but give it a +30% crit chance when the mob is below 50% health.
    Not a bad concept. An altered damage multiplier would work well, too. Have it be the standard 1.5x above 50% health and whatever it currently is when below 50%. Could even have it stepped; >50%: 1.5x ~ 50%-25%: 2.0x ~ <25%: 3.0x.

    Either way, make it a corruption removal with moderate DPS above 50%, and a solid DPS skill with corruption removal below 50% and it'd be a tactically flexible and interesting skill (which means, as P-Punk mentioned, it'll never happen).

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    Maybe if it cost less focus...
    Agreed. Even if it was something simple like adding a -2 MS Focus cost to Strong Draw (the same reduction ratio that PS benefits from), it'd make the skill less of a questionable investment.
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  17. #17
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    I'd rather see them give us +50% base damage +50% critical damage on Quality of Mercy trait or if you trait both (Strong Draw and Arrow Storm) it would reduce the focus cost by 2. this would made MS/IMS a dmage/focus efficient skill.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    yeah, MS is basicly a final shot in a long boss fight... or a final shot on normal mobs when you can easily take them one at a time. but raid rotations... well, MS and HS are there just to show off big numbers at the end of a boss fight when you trait cool burn because you're bored with running focus burn shot rotation due to the lack of variety with hunter trait sets. give us options!

    oops, sorry, the needle is skipping over the crack in the vinyl again... i really need to fix that 33. oh wait, you can't fix 33s. you have to replace them. but at least the hunter group DPS problem CAN be fixed. (as can HS and IMS)

    and considering the request above for a reduction in focus cost for IMS, i should probably make a suggestion for a change of bowmaster trait set bonuses... i think i might have tossed the idea around with a few people already...
    Forgotten_Legend, The Baconnaire
    Malinon - 75 Champion | JAZRAIEL - 100 HUNTER | Taeran - 75 RuneKeeper

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    87

    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    A very simple (but not the best) solution would be to just take away 2 focus consumption points. IMS is no way worth 6 points imo.

    Imagine with the new legacy, you would have to build up 6 focus every 20 seconds to give that new legacy a reason to exist. Pretty pointless if you ask me, considering you still have PS, RoT and HoA, especially when HoA and PS (or even one of them) are not traited and cost you 3 focus...

    With 2 focus cost less, damage would not increase (as much) where as increasing the crit chance would (more significantly) - and it would be fairly easy to do, I imagine.

    There is an impact on the combat system of course, because hunters would save 2 focus points they could spend on something else to pew pew, but I don't consider it as "deep" as raising the crit chance, although I would prefer THAT of course. It's just harder to sell...

    Regarding the corruption removal, I think not every class should have an easy way to remove 3 corruptions like LMs or RKs have. Still, I wouldn't complain and would sign the above suggestions at any time...

  20. #20

    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skofield View Post
    Regarding the corruption removal, I think not every class should have an easy way to remove 3 corruptions like LMs or RKs have. Still, I wouldn't complain and would sign the above suggestions at any time...
    I think you will find that corruption removal is a bigger deal than it was in MoM when you get int SoM and seeing the stacking corruptions that the mobs have.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    3,228

    Re: Improved Merciful vs Pen>RoA (aka: IMS needs a boost)

    Fighting off the purge.
    ..IMS still needs a boost
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