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  1. #26

    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by atteSmythe View Post
    I suspect this is because the bonus from S:P appears to be a direct ratings decrease on the mob. Ratings get less effective as you level, so S:P's bonus increases to remain relevant versus on-level mobs...but when you apply that to a mob of a lower level, not only is the rating value higher than when you were 59, but it's more efficient to begin with.

    ...hard to verify, but it's a thought.
    Makes no sense to me. If mobs with higher levels have higher said ratings, they unavoidably have higher BPE and regardless should be netting a higher rating of BPE after considering the effect of S:P than the 59 mob.

    Unless I've fundamentally misunderstood what you were trying to convey, which is very possible.

  2. #27
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by Overtone View Post
    One thing. If I'm going to roll S:P in Huntsmen 3/0/4, I'm definitely going to trait Enduring Precision over Strong Draw. I've found the combo of EP with Deadly Precision keeps the Focus pool full beyond the need for a 1 Focus gain on PS or HoA.
    Yeah, I think EP needs to be added. I'm not sure what to trade for it tho. For the test, I was thinking about taking the easy way out and trading Resolute Aim since I wasn't using NH for the test. But for long term use, I don't know if I want to give up the no-setbacks buff, and the idea of a 3-focus Pen Shot just sounds wrong..

    The numbers are very, very interesting, but I still don't like the idea of running S:P primary without a FA bow. Especially in PvP, where I tested it in the Moors on a SA and found the diminished DPS and loss of QS Slow to just be too much.
    I'm not sure what you're saying here. The DPS loss for 2nd age vs 1st age for S:P shouldn't be any more significant than for S:S. If they put out roughly the same DPS w/ one bow, the results should be similar w/ another bow.
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

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  3. #28
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesia View Post
    If you trait for the quickest inductions possible, use NH and test in FoS on Pulpums and trash, you will do more dmg opening with ISB on both (trash should be dead before they get to you and Pulpums are going to melee with you anyway). Opening with QS and may result in the Pulpum taking a few more seconds to get to you but you waste most/all of that time on the ISB animation doing NO DPS. If you instead open with ISB you keep your dmg output maximized throughout the fight.

    I didn't do hundreds of tests of each - I am just saying you should try it. Im my testing it was obviously better.

    As an aside, not using the same rotation and claiming an improvement due to S:P is not true. You have to do an apples to apples comparison to purely compare the effect of the stances - this means the shot rotation (along with everything else but the stance) needs to be constant in both tests.
    You can't really do an apples to apples comparison either because you would be gimping yourself if you used the same rotation in each stance. You wouldn't open S:S with ISB or S:P with QS.

  4. #29
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    Yeah, I think EP needs to be added. I'm not sure what to trade for it tho. For the test, I was thinking about taking the easy way out and trading Resolute Aim since I wasn't using NH for the test. But for long term use, I don't know if I want to give up the no-setbacks buff, and the idea of a 3-focus Pen Shot just sounds wrong..



    I'm not sure what you're saying here. The DPS loss for 2nd age vs 1st age for S:P shouldn't be any more significant than for S:S. If they put out roughly the same DPS w/ one bow, the results should be similar w/ another bow.
    personally, I only put resolute aim on for farming flake droppers or the moors, but I have a pocket SM weaponsmith and go through crafted traps like a fat kid goes through snacky cakes.

    When I screwed around w/ S:P builds Bk7ish, I would run w/ 4 huntsman and us fast draw / strong draw / enduring precision / swift recovery.

    Since then, I kinda just PvMP on my '****, so I haven't really done anything w/ S:P after Bk8 hit.
    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
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  5. #30
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    Makes no sense to me. If mobs with higher levels have higher said ratings, they unavoidably have higher BPE and regardless should be netting a higher rating of BPE after considering the effect of S:P than the 59 mob.

    Unless I've fundamentally misunderstood what you were trying to convey, which is very possible.
    I think so, though the other possibility is that I'm just wrong!

    Hypothetical, exaggerated numbers:

    At L59, a guardian has a block rating of 2100, which translates on the tooltip to 15%. 140 points of block rating give him 1% block chance. He dings L60, but his block rating doesn't increase. Now, it's only equivalent to 14% chance to block. Now it takes 150 points of rating to give you 1%. In order to get back to 15%, he has to increase his block rating to 2250.

    You're an L59 hunter. Your S:P block bypass is 700 (5%). Versus that L59 guardian, his effective block rating is down 2100-700 = 1400, 10% block chance. Your hunter dings L60, and S:P scales up. It's still 5%, but now that 5% is -750 target block rating. Versus the L59 guardian, 2100-750 = 1350 = 9.6% block chance.

    IF (if if if) that's an accurate description of what the ratings are doing, it would mean that so long as S:P's bonus is less than the target's total block/evade rating, it would be more effective percentagewise against lower-level targets than higher-level targets.

    I don't know how to test this, but it's one way of explaining why S:P would be more effective versus L59 sigs than L60 sigs.

  6. #31

    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by atteSmythe View Post
    I think so, though the other possibility is that I'm just wrong!

    Hypothetical, exaggerated numbers:

    At L59, a guardian has a block rating of 2100, which translates on the tooltip to 15%. 140 points of block rating give him 1% block chance. He dings L60, but his block rating doesn't increase. Now, it's only equivalent to 14% chance to block. Now it takes 150 points of rating to give you 1%. In order to get back to 15%, he has to increase his block rating to 2250.

    You're an L59 hunter. Your S:P block bypass is 700 (5%). Versus that L59 guardian, his effective block rating is down 2100-700 = 1400, 10% block chance. Your hunter dings L60, and S:P scales up. It's still 5%, but now that 5% is -750 target block rating. Versus the L59 guardian, 2100-750 = 1350 = 9.6% block chance.

    IF (if if if) that's an accurate description of what the ratings are doing, it would mean that so long as S:P's bonus is less than the target's total block/evade rating, it would be more effective percentagewise against lower-level targets than higher-level targets.

    I don't know how to test this, but it's one way of explaining why S:P would be more effective versus L59 sigs than L60 sigs.
    To me that seems like translating rating to percent but then using percent to take away from raw rating and thus is inconsistent. To me anyway. If that were true leveling would be detrimental to stats @ one point, which I don't believe is how it functions but rather has thresholds at which point rating equates to less in terms of percents, but it is linear in the sense it's determined only by how much rating you have, no level. All speculation, mind you.

  7. #32
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by atteSmythe View Post
    I think so, though the other possibility is that I'm just wrong!

    Hypothetical, exaggerated numbers:

    At L59, a guardian has a block rating of 2100, which translates on the tooltip to 15%. 140 points of block rating give him 1% block chance. He dings L60, but his block rating doesn't increase. Now, it's only equivalent to 14% chance to block. Now it takes 150 points of rating to give you 1%. In order to get back to 15%, he has to increase his block rating to 2250.

    You're an L59 hunter. Your S:P block bypass is 700 (5%). Versus that L59 guardian, his effective block rating is down 2100-700 = 1400, 10% block chance. Your hunter dings L60, and S:P scales up. It's still 5%, but now that 5% is -750 target block rating. Versus the L59 guardian, 2100-750 = 1350 = 9.6% block chance.

    IF (if if if) that's an accurate description of what the ratings are doing, it would mean that so long as S:P's bonus is less than the target's total block/evade rating, it would be more effective percentagewise against lower-level targets than higher-level targets.

    I don't know how to test this, but it's one way of explaining why S:P would be more effective versus L59 sigs than L60 sigs.
    Not saying you're wrong (that's actually an interesting, and plausible, theory), but it could just be that I got lucky on the small set of L59 mobs I parsed in S:P and less so on those I did in S:S.
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

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  8. #33
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    do not confuse luck w/ skill!

    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
    [/color]

  9. #34
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Ratings definitely decrease in effectiveness if you level without increasing your rating to compensate. Well, at the least, S:P increases in rating bypass as you level, so either ratings become less effective as you level or S:P becomes more effective as you level.

  10. #35
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    With all that math and charts it makes me think about people wondering how useful Precision Stance really was. I guess not missing as often keeps your DPS up to par without much of a loss on damage.

    Well you still do less damage but not as bad as people thought originally.

    This would IMO based on the numbers that Endurance Stance would still lower our DPS a bit more by 3k from Precision to 6k at max but then again with the idea that our Power Cost is 20% to 10% reduced it would prob be closer to 3 to 4k max of lowering from Precision numbers. Which isnt bad in a group situation.

    Fleet I would say is probably close to that of Precision if your going Improved Fleet Stance. Why? Simply because of the rate of fire you have going.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  11. #36
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by Kannos1600 View Post
    With all that math and charts it makes me think about people wondering how useful Precision Stance really was. I guess not missing as often keeps your DPS up to par without much of a loss on damage.

    Well you still do less damage but not as bad as people thought originally.

    This would IMO based on the numbers that Endurance Stance would still lower our DPS a bit more by 3k from Precision to 6k at max but then again with the idea that our Power Cost is 20% to 10% reduced it would prob be closer to 3 to 4k max of lowering from Precision numbers. Which isnt bad in a group situation.
    /checks notes..
    hmm
    yup
    Now I have to add S:E to my list of parses to run. That should determine more specifically what we're gaining in BPE/miss chance from S:P. Oh, except for QS crit chance. So S:E (equal to no stance for purposes of this test) is essentially base. Then we can take -BPE/miss +QS crit from S:P or straight +damage from S:S. So now I have to go do some S:E parsing so we can get the delta for S:P over base and S:S over base. Should have some data on that by tomorrow..
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

    [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=92210"]Camp Site List[/URL] [/b][COLOR=#8C9FB2]||[/COLOR] [B][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?338615-Regen&p=4742372#post4742372"]Regen (PIC/MIC) from Fate[/URL] [COLOR=#8C9FB2][/B]||[B] Convert Ratings to Percent[/B]: [B][/COLOR][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4082215#post4082215"]BPE/Crit/Etc.[/URL][/B][/size]

  12. #37
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Good call, Dom, estimating the difference in avoidance rate through damage output...assuming it's possible to be careful enough with keeping the rotation the same.

    Unstanced would work as well as S:E

  13. #38
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by kerryak View Post
    do not confuse luck w/ skill!

    Love that movie. Gotta love the entire intro to it from Keep Hope Alive by the Crystal Method as the theme song.
    Then the major butt kickage.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  14. #39
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    maybe slightly off topic, but strong draw + deadly precision is actually a hunter's best DPS tool, presuming the fight starts with full/near-full focus. (all other things being equal)

    /end_tongue_in_cheek
    Forgotten_Legend, The Baconnaire
    Malinon - 75 Champion | JAZRAIEL - 100 HUNTER | Taeran - 75 RuneKeeper

  15. #40

    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    While waiting for more definitive numbers on the relative DPS of each stance ...

    Folks should remember that it isn't a complete either/or situation.

    You can toggle between stances at any point.

    When pulling a l60 mob, you can start the pull in S:S with QS, then immediately hit the key for S:P and continue from there. You get the benefit of the S:S slow during the pull and the reduced mob avoidance with S:P. You just have to remember to toggle your stance back to S:S before the next pull.

    On the topic - I think that the game operates with a straightforward truism: Lower level mobs are easier to hit than higher level mobs. At some level differential a higher level player will pretty much always hit the lower level mob. Given that situation, there is essentially zero benefit to S:P and S:S holds a clear and inarguable advantage.

    And on the other end, clearly higher level mobs more successfully avoid the player's shots and S:P can reduce some of those misses and, depending on which shots are missing could have a huge effect.

    So yeah, induction leads us to the fact that there must be a crossover point of level differential where S:P finally start to pay off.

    My non-quantitative, purely subjective impression is that avoidance drammatically kicks in when fighting on-level or higher mobs. The crossover point is probably actually below that, but conservatively I've always sort of assumed that S:P is going to be of certain benefit when fighting on-level or higher. It would be good to have that measured.

    Shot rotations - this is important. If in S:S you miss with one of your big, heavy damage shots, that really cuts your DPS - and the impact is more than if you missed the same shot in S:P. Note that ISB is treated as 3 separate shots, not one. Missing with PS or MS or Heartseeker are all more costly than missing with QS, one of the ISB shots, Bard's or Barbed.

    So between your S:S rotation and your S:P rotation, if you happen to be using more high-dmg shots in S:S and thus end up 'missing' on more of those, then that would really skew results. You have to do enough tests with misses distributed proportionally across the different skills used in your rotation so as to wash out any such skew.

    Finally, though - we have to be careful to understand what we are measuring. We could show that one stance or the other results in higher/lower DPS while holding all other variables fixed - but that has to be put in context of how we actually play.

    Okay, I think I've exceeded my $.02.

  16. #41
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    For starters, I updated the OP with some S:E numbers, the highlights being:

    The Results:
    S:E L60 Pûlpums: 203.22 DPS (baseline)
    S:S L60 Pûlpums: 212.94 DPS (base + 4.78%)
    S:P L60 Pûlpums: 206.70 DPS (base + 1.71%)

    I also added some to the Pertinent Details, Factors and an Edit note at the bottom. If you're interested, you can go back and look.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhifOfDespair View Post
    Shot rotations - this is important. If in S:S you miss with one of your big, heavy damage shots, that really cuts your DPS - and the impact is more than if you missed the same shot in S:P. Note that ISB is treated as 3 separate shots, not one. Missing with PS or MS or Heartseeker are all more costly than missing with QS, one of the ISB shots, Bard's or Barbed.

    So between your S:S rotation and your S:P rotation, if you happen to be using more high-dmg shots in S:S and thus end up 'missing' on more of those, then that would really skew results. You have to do enough tests with misses distributed proportionally across the different skills used in your rotation so as to wash out any such skew.
    I'm trying to normalize my shot rotation as much as possible. I'm gonna throw out my current S:S numbers when I get some new data with the ISB > Pen > QS opener I'm using for the other stances. The rotation varies after that but the variation is due to focus availability and flow of the battle, so hopefully it will average out stance to stance. Right now I only have about a dozen samples for each stance, I plan on gathering more samples to add to that to help smooth out anomalies.

    Finally, though - we have to be careful to understand what we are measuring.
    On that note, I want to stress that my goal is to do this particular test in a way that best translates to the sustained DPS we do in a group. I'm trying to adjust the way I'm gathering data to best show that (which is why I'm gonna change my S:S rotation and why I also want to redo the S:P tests with Enduring Precision slotted). The results may also be applicable in part to solo work, but again, I want to be perfectly clear that the choices I make in how to execute the tests will always favor the group play picture over solo. (gonna go add a note on that to the OP)
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

    [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=92210"]Camp Site List[/URL] [/b][COLOR=#8C9FB2]||[/COLOR] [B][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?338615-Regen&p=4742372#post4742372"]Regen (PIC/MIC) from Fate[/URL] [COLOR=#8C9FB2][/B]||[B] Convert Ratings to Percent[/B]: [B][/COLOR][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4082215#post4082215"]BPE/Crit/Etc.[/URL][/B][/size]

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    4,740

    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Again this all results to when we were wondering how and why Precision was in anyway useful with many stating it wasn't.

    Hmmm.

    Wheres my smacking stick for everyone who argued me about Precision Stance not being a viable stance?
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Windfola
    Posts
    5,226

    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    I'm really skeptical of the low S:S numbers. Traited 304, the difference between it and S:E is a third what you would expect.

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    3,228

    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by atteSmythe View Post
    I'm really skeptical of the low S:S numbers. Traited 304, the difference between it and S:E is a third what you would expect.
    Yeah, I agree. There are a lot of factors that could explain S:S and S:P being close, but the fact that S:E came in so close behind is definitely a red flag. Like I said, I did the S:E tests in a different location where I'm almost always able to pull from max range. So redoing S:S & S:P there will hopefully get us results that make more sense.
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

    [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=92210"]Camp Site List[/URL] [/b][COLOR=#8C9FB2]||[/COLOR] [B][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?338615-Regen&p=4742372#post4742372"]Regen (PIC/MIC) from Fate[/URL] [COLOR=#8C9FB2][/B]||[B] Convert Ratings to Percent[/B]: [B][/COLOR][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4082215#post4082215"]BPE/Crit/Etc.[/URL][/B][/size]

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    PA
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    4,740

    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    I may be heading towards Fleet Stance soon. Not really but it sounded interesting

    Although we already have a good group of Hunters that are utilizing that setup. I used to have one on my Turtle Raids for a good time. Now that I dont do them as often I dont get to see that monkey
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    3,228

    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    OK, I made a bunch of updates to the OP. Copying the new test results here:
    S:E L60 Pûlpums (11): 203.22 DPS (baseline)
    S:S L60 Pûlpums (26): 218.25 DPS (base + 7.39%)
    S:P L60 Pûlpums (10): 216.54 DPS (base + 5.57%)
    Old test - S:P L60 Pûlpums (12) w/o Enduring Precision: 206.70 DPS (base + 1.71%)

    As you can see, S:S is doing a little better after I normalized my shot rotation. However, 7.39% is still far short of the 15% advertised damage bonus we're supposed to be getting from S:S with 3BM traits. This concerns me.

    Also, as I said in the updated OP, with Enduring Precision slotted, S:P is very close to S:S (S:S is only giving me a 0.79% increase over S:P ).

    S:P & S:E only have 10 and 11 parses respectively right now, so I'm gonna continue to gather data. But based on early returns, I personally will be using S:P w/ Enduring Precision a lot more than I used to..
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

    [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=92210"]Camp Site List[/URL] [/b][COLOR=#8C9FB2]||[/COLOR] [B][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?338615-Regen&p=4742372#post4742372"]Regen (PIC/MIC) from Fate[/URL] [COLOR=#8C9FB2][/B]||[B] Convert Ratings to Percent[/B]: [B][/COLOR][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4082215#post4082215"]BPE/Crit/Etc.[/URL][/B][/size]

  22. #47
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    716

    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    S:P & S:E only have 10 and 11 parses respectively right now, so I'm gonna continue to gather data. But based on early returns, I personally will be using S:P w/ Enduring Precision a lot more than I used to..
    Yeah I've been using precision a lot more lately, it's actually very effective against higher level mobs. I also slotted that trait that allows for 1 focus pip every 10 seconds and it really keeps focus up if all I'm using is penetrating shot or rain of arrows with quick shot or swift bow in between, the -10% inductions are also nice, might slot for the extra -10% for 4 in the huntsman traitline.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/01203010000025086/signature.png]Haji[/charsig]
    Tuin lvl 75 Captain

  23. #48

    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuin View Post
    Yeah I've been using precision a lot more lately, it's actually very effective against higher level mobs. I also slotted that trait that allows for 1 focus pip every 10 seconds and it really keeps focus up if all I'm using is penetrating shot or rain of arrows with quick shot or swift bow in between, the -10% inductions are also nice, might slot for the extra -10% for 4 in the huntsman traitline.
    3 in the hunts with fast draw is the best balance there imo. You only get a .1 reduction for the 4th trait in the line. Add in the one that gives you +1 focus for a crit and you shouldn't ever have focus problems. Even if your not going S:S the Bowmaster traits still improve your damage a significant amount when used in combo with the huntsman.
    Last edited by Dakil; Nov 16 2009 at 12:34 PM.

  24. #49

    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Fast Draw is a very useless trait.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    716

    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakil View Post
    3 in the hunts with fast draw is the best balance there imo. You only get a .1 reduction for the 4th trait in the line. Add in the one that gives you +1 focus for a crit and you shouldn't ever have focus problems. Even if your not going S:S the Bowmaster traits still improve your damage a significant amount when used in combo with the huntsman.
    very true however going 4 in bowmaster doesn't help in precision, where as 3 still gives the +crit magnitude, and that .1 reduction is .5 on HS and .2 on SB, and yeah definitly will always have that +1 focus no matter what, but with that and 1 focus pip every 10 seconds, and not to mention the increased crit chance of QS in precision. Basically I can have a .8s induction on QS, 1.4s induction on SB and the increased focus generation easily allows spamming of penetrating shot even after use of mercy shot. (I would however never slot press onward legendary)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/01203010000025086/signature.png]Haji[/charsig]
    Tuin lvl 75 Captain

 

 
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