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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    3,228

    S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    S:S 403 Update 11/19
    I had some time to kill so did a run thru with a 403 build in S:S. I dropped Enduring Precision for True Shot for this.
    Results after the break!!!

    Minor Update 11/18
    Just added 10 more S:P tests. Average DPS went up slightly.

    Update 11/17
    I went back and did a bit more S:E & S:P testing. The number for S:E didn't change much, but S:P went down a lot. I don't know if the first set was unusually high or the second unusually low or both, but with 22 kills instead of 10, the average should be more accurate.

    Update 11/09
    OK, I'm throwing out the old S:P & S:S numbers and adding some new. I decided based on the focus (next paragraph) that I'd be better off using a uniform shot rotation and testing S:P with Enduring Precision slotted. So the data below is based off of that (I'll keep the results of the first tests at the bottom for anyone that cares).


    A Note on the Focus of This Test
    My goal in this particular test is to determine (as best I can in a solo test) which stance works best in group play. The results may also be applicable in part to solo work, but I want to be perfectly clear that the choices I make in how to execute the tests will always favor the group play picture over solo.


    The Setup:
    For obvious reasons, everyone assumes S:S is our best damage stance. But, while doing some parsing on elites in the FoS (not really intending to do a S:P vs S:S comparison to begin with), I noticed something odd. I'm parsing very close, and sometimes higher DPS in S:P than S:S!!


    The Pertinent Details:
    • The tests are on the L60 Globsnaga Pûlpums in the Foundation of Stone (just past the mirror).
    • I use a 304 build (Critical Eye, Deadly Precision, Swift and True, Fast Draw, Enduring Precision, Strong Draw, Swift Recovery).
    • I'm not using Needful Haste or Intent Concentration in this test.
    • I attempted to start every fight at or near max range (with the new location I found, I think I've been able to maintain 35-40m for almost every fight) with full focus.
    • Skill rotation for all three stances: ISB > Pen > QS > Pen > (melee) RoA > Pen > BS > Pen > ...
    • Note: usually shortly after entering melee range, they start an induction attack that allows me to move behind and queue an ISB > Pen w/o risk of interruption. Typically this comes either right before, or right after the BS > Pen sequence. I did that for all three stances.
    • I don't have any legacies that favor either stance over the other.
    • It doesn't really matter for the purposes of this test, but I use a crafted 2nd age bow
    • ..I can't think of anything else that is pertinent, but I'll add anything else I think of or if someone brings up something I left out.


    The Results:
    S:E L60 Pûlpums (19): 202.16 DPS (baseline)
    S:S L60 Pûlpums (26): 218.25 DPS (base + 7.96% -- 4.70% increase over S:P)
    S:S in a 403 Build (30): 228.45 DPS (base + 13.00% -- 4.67% increase over S:S 304)
    S:P L60 Pûlpums (32): 208.46 DPS (base + 3.12%)
    old test - S:P L60 Pûlpums (12) w/o Enduring Precision: 206.70 DPS (base + 2.25%)


    The Factors:
    • With the 304 build, S:S is adding +5% damage to S:S for a total of +15%.
    • With the 304 build, S:S also gives us a total of +10% to our crit damage.
    • I never ran low on power during a fight, so the increased power usage from S:S was not a factor in this test (I did have to wait more between fights, but that's not my focus for this test)
    • S:P reduces the mobs chance to block & evade, and reduces your miss chance. Using Enduring Precision, I have more focus to work with, I think this is the primary reason for S:P coming out ahead in some cases.
    • S:E is just baseline damage - I used this instead of no stance since power and threat (which S:E affect) are not part of this test


    Theory:
    I want to do more testing for S:P & S:E, but early returns are showing Enduring Precision being a bigger factor than the block/evade/miss benefits on S:P. At this point in testing, it's looking like the difference between S:S and S:P is much smaller than I think most of us assumed. Obviously, in situations where the QS slow is beneficial, S:S is still good for that. But for group play, the damage difference between S:S and S:P looks pretty small, especially when the power & threat issues are considered. S:S may still be good when you need a burst, or maybe for short, trash fights. But with a 4/0/3 build, S:P w/ Enduring Precision may be the best DPS build available to us right now for anything that needs to be sustained for any length of time.

    Theory Update (11/17)
    The difference between my highs and lows in S:P bother me (high=264 / low=180). Obviously, that's what happens when you have crits to deal with, but I think I still need to do more S:P tests to get a truer average. At this point, neither S:P doesn't look nearly as good as it did at first. Another thing that bothers me, is how small the gap is between S:E and S:P and S:S. If S:S is supposed to give us a flat +15% damage bonus (in addition to the +10% crit damage bonus), why am I only getting 7%??

    Theory Update (11/18)
    After a comment by atteSmythe got me thinking, I realized 15-20% of my attacks in this test are melee, which dilutes the S:S benefit. So maybe 80-85% of my attacks are affected by S:S. That drops the 15% S:S bonus down to 12-12.75%. That doesn't account for the whole, gap, I still think there's something else going on there, but that certainly reduces the margin.

    403 Build S:S Theory Update (11/19)
    From the advertised 10% increase in S:S damage, I'm only seeing 4.67% of that. A the cost of +10% threat and +15% power. As discussed above, part of the loss comes from the fact I'm in melee part of the time. So if you're in a position where you can keep the mob at range, you'll benefit more. Still, the cost is awfully high for what you are gaining here.

    Thoughts??



    The Tests: (for those who like to see the numbers.. you know who you are )
    S:E L60 Pulpums
    Mob ___ ___ DPS _ Incoming Damage _ Tot Damage _ Fight Duration
    L60 Pp ___ 197.35 __ _ 1,101 __ _____ 6,669 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 178.77 __ _ 2,241 __ _____ 7,733 ___ ___ 0m 41s
    L60 Pp ___ 216.30 __ _ 1,141 __ _____ 7,745 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 203.32 __ _ 1,175 __ _____ 7,732 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L60 Pp ___ 197.26 __ _ 1,114 __ _____ 7,735 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 217.14 __ _ 2,226 __ _____ 7,744 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 208.26 __ _ 1,181 __ _____ 7,760 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 207.93 __ _ 1,178 __ _____ 7,728 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 203.44 __ _ 1,178 __ _____ 7,752 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 215.33 __ _ 1,161 __ _____ 7,737 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 195.05 __ _ 1,114 __ _____ 6,673 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 234.83 __ _ 1,124 __ _____ 7,748 ___ ___ 0m 32s
    L60 Pp ___ 186.78 __ _ 1,165 __ _____ 7,741 ___ ___ 0m 40s
    L60 Pp ___ 208.36 __ _ 1,165 __ _____ 7,745 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L60 Pp ___ 191.03 __ _ 1,178 __ _____ 7,727 ___ ___ 0m 38s
    L60 Pp ___ 214.52 __ _ 1,138 __ _____ 7,734 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 198.71 __ _ 2,216 __ _____ 7,733 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 199.39 __ _ 1,193 __ _____ 7,754 ___ ___ 0m 38s
    L60 Pp ___ 181.96 __ _ 2,216 __ _____ 7,757 ___ ___ 0m 42s
    ========= ======= ============= ============== ================
    Avg __ ___ 202.15 ____ 1,169.42 ___ _ 7,734.84 __ _ 0m 36s
    Total __________ __ _ 32,213 ____ _ 139,955 ___ ___ 11m 30s


    S:S L60 Pulpums
    Mob ___ ___ DPS _ Incoming Damage _ Tot Damage _ Fight Duration
    L60 Pp ___ 226.95 __ _ 1,142 __ _____ 7,743 ___ ___ 0m 33s
    L60 Pp ___ 210.00 __ _ 1,170 __ _____ 7,765 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L60 Pp ___ 198.98 __ _ 1,181 __ _____ 7,729 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 227.85 ____ _ 900 __ _____ 7,730 ___ ___ 0m 32s
    L60 Pp ___ 208.32 __ _ 1,184 __ _____ 7,734 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 185.38 __ _ 3,379 __ _____ 7,728 ___ ___ 0m 39s
    L60 Pp ___ 216.66 __ _ 1,168 __ _____ 7,794 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 259.53 ____ _ 956 __ _____ 7,749 ___ ___ 0m 29s
    L60 Pp ___ 224.62 __ _ 1,171 __ _____ 7,771 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 246.82 __ _ 1,161 __ _____ 7,757 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L60 Pp ___ 208.11 __ _ 1,192 __ _____ 7,741 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L60 Pp ___ 282.10 ____ _ 751 __ _____ 7,743 ___ ___ 0m 26s
    L60 Pp ___ 209.02 __ _ 1,194 __ _____ 7,732 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 240.25 __ _ 1,131 __ _____ 7,740 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L60 Pp ___ 206.55 __ _ 1,142 __ _____ 7,723 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 209.67 __ _ 1,112 __ _____ 6,641 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L60 Pp ___ 250.33 __ _ 1,122 __ _____ 7,735 ___ ___ 0m 29s
    L60 Pp ___ 208.90 __ _ 2,212 __ _____ 7,710 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 214.04 ____ _ 929 __ _____ 7,715 ___ ___ 0m 33s
    L60 Pp ___ 246.77 __ _ 1,139 __ _____ 7,746 ___ ___ 0m 30s
    L60 Pp ___ 245.97 ____ _ 983 __ _____ 7,734 ___ ___ 0m 30s
    L60 Pp ___ 195.81 __ _ 1,132 __ _____ 7,731 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 213.89 __ _ 1,143 __ _____ 7,732 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 216.54 __ _ 1,168 __ _____ 7,728 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 205.22 __ _ 1,183 __ _____ 7,732 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L60 Pp ___ 175.21 __ _ 2,262 __ _____ 7,753 ___ ___ 0m 43s
    ========= ======= ============= ============== ================
    Avg __ ___ 218.24 ____ 1,159.80 ___ _ 7,736.80 __ _ 0m 34s
    Total __________ __ _ 41,149 ____ _ 191,145 ___ ___ 14m 37s


    S:P L60 Pulpums
    Mob ___ ___ DPS _ Incoming Damage _ Tot Damage _ Fight Duration
    L60 Pp ___ 222.22 __ _ 1,128 __ _____ 7,782 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 225.22 __ _ 1,159 __ _____ 7,734 ___ ___ 0m 33s
    L60 Pp ___ 231.05 __ _ 1,140 __ _____ 7,732 ___ ___ 0m 32s
    L60 Pp ___ 197.70 __ _ 1,181 __ _____ 7,733 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 236.17 ____ _ 877 __ _____ 7,736 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L60 Pp ___ 202.96 __ _ 2,257 __ _____ 7,736 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L60 Pp ___ 196.14 __ _ 1,165 __ _____ 7,729 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 264.00 __ _ 1,112 __ _____ 7,729 ___ ___ 0m 28s
    L60 Pp ___ 190.52 __ _ 1,194 __ _____ 7,769 ___ ___ 0m 40s
    L60 Pp ___ 201.89 __ _ 2,205 __ _____ 7,773 ___ ___ 0m 38s
    L60 Pp ___ 201.86 __ _ 1,140 __ _____ 7,737 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 189.25 __ _ 2,205 __ _____ 7,728 ___ ___ 0m 38s
    L60 Pp ___ 187.21 __ _ 1,173 __ _____ 7,732 ___ ___ 0m 39s
    L60 Pp ___ 250.72 ____ _ 722 __ _____ 7,768 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L60 Pp ___ 192.99 __ _ 1,198 __ _____ 7,732 ___ ___ 0m 38s
    L60 Pp ___ 223.58 __ _ 1,146 __ _____ 7,745 ___ ___ 0m 33s
    L60 Pp ___ 206.93 __ _ 3,326 __ _____ 7,730 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 196.80 __ _ 2,251 __ _____ 7,765 ___ ___ 0m 39s
    L60 Pp ___ 216.30 __ _ 1,132 __ _____ 7,743 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 193.65 __ _ 1,168 __ _____ 7,733 ___ ___ 0m 38s
    L60 Pp ___ 188.27 __ _ 1,186 __ _____ 7,728 ___ ___ 0m 39s
    L60 Pp ___ 197.02 __ _ 1,193 __ _____ 7,743 ___ ___ 0m 38s
    L60 Pp ___ 228.89 __ _ 1,177 __ _____ 7,720 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L60 Pp ___ 210.85 __ _ 1,115 __ _____ 7,714 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 252.11 ____ _ 944 __ _____ 7,723 ___ ___ 0m 29s
    L60 Pp ___ 179.76 __ _ 1,166 __ _____ 7,732 ___ ___ 0m 41s
    L60 Pp ___ 199.13 __ _ 1,197 __ _____ 7,727 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 207.48 __ _ 1,159 __ _____ 7,728 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 210.99 __ _ 1,182 __ _____ 7,762 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L60 Pp ___ 195.79 __ _ 1,165 __ _____ 7,766 ___ ___ 0m 39s
    L60 Pp ___ 213.40 __ _ 1,142 __ _____ 7,743 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 217.10 __ _ 1,112 __ _____ 7,735 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    ========= ======= ============= ============== ================
    Avg __ ___ 208.45 __ _ 1,669.41 ___ _ 7,407.31 __ _ 0m 36s
    Total __________ __ _ 53,421 ____ _ 237,034 ___ ___ 18m 57s


    S:S L60 Pulpums with 403 Build
    Mob ___ ___ DPS _ Incoming Damage _ Tot Damage _ Fight Duration
    L60 Pp ___ 233.05 __ _ 1,123 __ _____ 7,777 ___ ___ 0m 33s
    L60 Pp ___ 224.28 __ _ 1,185 __ _____ 7,734 ___ ___ 0m 33s
    L60 Pp ___ 250.84 __ _ 1,129 __ _____ 7,740 ___ ___ 0m 30s
    L60 Pp ___ 227.15 __ _ 1,148 __ _____ 7,733 ___ ___ 0m 32s
    L60 Pp ___ 251.58 ____ _ 850 __ _____ 7,729 ___ ___ 0m 29s
    L60 Pp ___ 233.07 __ _ 1,126 __ _____ 7,733 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L60 Pp ___ 236.06 ____ _ 949 __ _____ 7,702 ___ ___ 0m 30s
    L60 Pp ___ 211.31 __ _ 1,108 _ _____ 10,080 ___ ___ 0m 51s
    L60 Pp ___ 213.68 __ _ 1,138 __ _____ 7,738 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 248.69 ____ _ 932 __ _____ 7,748 ___ ___ 0m 30s
    L60 Pp ___ 245.64 ____ _ 766 __ _____ 7,746 ___ ___ 0m 30s
    L60 Pp ___ 221.42 __ _ 1,175 __ _____ 7,730 ___ ___ 0m 33s
    L60 Pp ___ 228.06 __ _ 1,114 __ _____ 7,732 ___ ___ 0m 32s
    L60 Pp ___ 217.70 __ _ 2,210 __ _____ 7,734 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 209.70 __ _ 2,284 _ _____ 10,057 ___ ___ 0m 50s
    L60 Pp ___ 206.98 __ _ 1,133 __ _____ 7,727 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 253.08 __ _ 1,137 __ _____ 7,752 ___ ___ 0m 30s
    L60 Pp ___ 233.54 ____ _ 833 __ _____ 7,731 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L60 Pp ___ 197.31 __ _ 2,207 __ _____ 7,746 ___ ___ 0m 38s
    L60 Pp ___ 220.63 __ _ 1,196 __ _____ 7,734 ___ ___ 0m 33s
    L60 Pp ___ 228.93 __ _ 1,125 __ _____ 7,727 ___ ___ 0m 32s
    L60 Pp ___ 216.35 __ _ 1,148 __ _____ 7,743 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 218.61 __ _ 1,166 __ _____ 7,727 ___ ___ 0m 33s
    L60 Pp ___ 249.00 __ _ 1,104 __ _____ 7,731 ___ ___ 0m 29s
    L60 Pp ___ 273.44 __ _ 1,178 __ _____ 7,778 ___ ___ 0m 28s
    L60 Pp ___ 224.15 __ _ 1,123 __ _____ 7,754 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 246.40 __ _ 1,166 __ _____ 7,772 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L60 Pp ___ 253.93 __ _ 1,120 __ _____ 7,728 ___ ___ 0m 29s
    L60 Pp ___ 242.78 __ _ 1,127 __ _____ 7,732 ___ ___ 0m 30s
    L60 Pp ___ 194.93 __ _ 1,196 __ _____ 7,762 ___ ___ 0m 39s
    ========= ======= ============= ============== ================
    Avg __ ___ 228.44 __ _ 1,437.23 ___ _ 7,623.50 __ _ 0m 33s
    Total __________ __ _ 43,117 ____ _ 228,705 ___ ___ 16m 41s



    ---------------------------------------


    Old Data (the first two sets of data are from the L59 Elite Globsnaga Fungus Collectors that run around just south of the Shadowed Refuge)


    The Old Results:
    S:S L59 Fungus Collectors: 212.47 DPS
    S:P L59 Fungus Collectors: 223.33 DPS (5.1% higher)

    S:E L60 Pûlpums: 203.22 DPS (baseline)
    S:S L60 Pûlpums: 212.94 DPS (base + 4.78%) - using QS > Pen > ISB .... pull rotation
    S:P L60 Pûlpums: 206.70 DPS (base + 1.71%) - not using Enduring Precision


    Theory:
    Could the block/evade/miss benefits on S:P be worth that much? On the L59 mobs, those factors should be lessened vs the L60 mobs, but that's where S:P fared better (tho the sample size is admittedly small). S:S also had the advantage of more time in ranged combat (more ranged AAs & fewer induction setbacks), so conceivably, this test could favor S:P even more if I had ranged mobs to test against or a tank to keep the mobs attention.



    The Tests: (for those who like to see the numbers.. you know who you are )
    S:S L59 Fungus Collectors
    Mob ___ ___ DPS _ Incoming Damage _ Tot Damage _ Fight Duration
    L59 FC ___ 208.41 __ _ 1,160 __ _____ 7,705 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L59 FC ___ 246.65 __ _ 1,107 __ _____ 6,695 ___ ___ 0m 28s
    L59 FC ___ 194.50 __ _ 1,189 __ _____ 7,708 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L59 FC ___ 224.97 __ _ 1,109 __ _____ 7,715 ___ ___ 0m 32s
    L59 FC ___ 195.74 ____ _ 785 __ _____ 7,723 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L59 FC ___ 224.16 __ _ 1,150 __ _____ 7,712 ___ ___ 0m 32s
    L59 FC ___ 229.16 ____ _ 958 __ _____ 7,716 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L59 FC ___ 189.99 __ _ 1,151 __ _____ 7,714 ___ ___ 0m 38s
    ========= ======= ============= ============== ================
    Avg __ ___ 212.46 ____ 1,130.37 ___ _ 7,711.62 __ _ 0m 33s
    Total __________ __ _ 10,042 _____ _ 56,690 ___ ___ 4m 28s


    S:P L59 Fungus Collectors
    Mob ___ ___ DPS _ Incoming Damage _ Tot Damage _ Fight Duration
    L59 FC ___ 226.16 __ _ 1,159 __ _____ 6,697 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L59 FC ___ 249.69 ____ _ 650 __ _____ 7,703 ___ ___ 0m 28s
    L59 FC ___ 221.01 __ _ 1,134 __ _____ 7,742 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L59 FC ___ 192.55 __ _ 1,129 __ _____ 7,708 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L59 FC ___ 235.34 ____ _ 897 __ _____ 6,696 ___ ___ 0m 30s
    L59 FC ___ 223.68 __ _ 1,122 __ _____ 6,695 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L59 FC ___ 223.72 __ _ 1,161 __ _____ 7,700 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    ========= ======= ============= ============== ================
    Avg __ ___ 223.32 ____ 1,123.42 ___ _ 7,706.28 __ _ 0m 32s
    Total __________ ___ _ 8,861 _____ _ 49,945 ___ ___ 3m 41s


    S:E L60 Pulpums
    Mob ___ ___ DPS _ Incoming Damage _ Tot Damage _ Fight Duration
    L60 Pp ___ 197.35 __ _ 1,101 __ _____ 6,669 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 178.77 __ _ 2,241 __ _____ 7,733 ___ ___ 0m 41s
    L60 Pp ___ 216.30 __ _ 1,141 __ _____ 7,745 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 203.32 __ _ 1,175 __ _____ 7,732 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L60 Pp ___ 197.26 __ _ 1,114 __ _____ 7,735 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 217.14 __ _ 2,226 __ _____ 7,744 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 208.26 __ _ 1,181 __ _____ 7,760 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 207.93 __ _ 1,178 __ _____ 7,728 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 203.44 __ _ 1,178 __ _____ 7,752 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 215.33 __ _ 1,161 __ _____ 7,737 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 195.05 __ _ 1,114 __ _____ 6,673 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    ========= ======= ============= ============== ================
    Avg __ ___ 203.21 ____ 1,164.63 ___ _ 7,728.81 __ _ 0m 36s
    Total __________ __ _ 18,814 _____ _ 80,013 ___ ___ 6m 34s


    S:S L60 Pulpums
    Mob ___ ___ DPS _ Incoming Damage _ Tot Damage _ Fight Duration
    L60 Pp ___ 188.15 __ _ 1,163 __ _____ 7,744 ___ ___ 0m 40s
    L60 Pp ___ 196.92 ____ _ 625 __ _____ 7,737 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    L60 Pp ___ 192.30 __ _ 2,242 __ _____ 6,678 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 204.20 __ _ 1,196 __ _____ 7,735 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L60 Pp ___ 230.25 __ _ 1,170 __ _____ 7,751 ___ ___ 0m 33s
    L60 Pp ___ 186.69 __ _ 1,197 __ _____ 7,734 ___ ___ 0m 39s
    L60 Pp ___ 213.31 __ _ 1,105 __ _____ 6,656 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L60 Pp ___ 205.85 __ _ 1,134 __ _____ 7,730 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L60 Pp ___ 252.43 __ _ 1,107 __ _____ 7,735 ___ ___ 0m 29s
    L60 Pp ___ 189.41 __ _ 2,258 __ _____ 7,746 ___ ___ 0m 39s
    L60 Pp ___ 245.61 __ _ 1,105 __ _____ 7,732 ___ ___ 0m 30s
    L60 Pp ___ 240.74 ____ _ 990 __ _____ 7,739 ___ ___ 0m 31s
    L60 Pp ___ 206.35 __ _ 1,129 __ _____ 6,675 ___ ___ 0m 33s
    L60 Pp ___ 224.27 __ _ 1,146 __ _____ 7,760 ___ ___ 0m 34s
    L60 Pp ___ 234.50 ____ _ 850 __ _____ 6,658 ___ ___ 0m 28s
    L60 Pp ___ 226.85 __ _ 1,143 __ _____ 8,823 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    ========= ======= ============= ============== ================
    Avg __ ___ 212.94 ____ 1,146.75 ___ _ 7,727.31 __ _ 0m 34s
    Total __________ __ _ 23,348 ____ _ 116,640 ___ ___ 9m 7s


    S:P L60 Pulpums
    Mob ___ ___ DPS _ Incoming Damage _ Tot Damage _ Fight Duration
    L60 Pp ___ 227.27 __ _ 1,108 __ _____ 7,754 ___ ___ 0m 33s
    L60 Pp ___ 190.39 __ _ 2,216 __ _____ 7,728 ___ ___ 0m 38s
    L60 Pp ___ 209.96 __ _ 1,152 __ _____ 7,730 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 244.96 __ _ 1,110 __ _____ 7,735 ___ ___ 0m 30s
    L60 Pp ___ 205.05 __ _ 1,118 __ _____ 7,737 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L60 Pp ___ 206.75 __ _ 1,153 __ _____ 7,739 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L60 Pp ___ 199.38 __ _ 1,135 __ _____ 6,693 ___ ___ 0m 35s
    L60 Pp ___ 193.86 __ _ 1,178 __ _____ 7,735 ___ ___ 0m 38s
    L60 Pp ___ 187.97 __ _ 1,182 __ _____ 7,733 ___ ___ 0m 39s
    L60 Pp ___ 219.65 __ _ 1,154 __ _____ 7,735 ___ ___ 0m 33s
    L60 Pp ___ 207.08 __ _ 1,166 __ _____ 7,737 ___ ___ 0m 36s
    L60 Pp ___ 200.15 __ _ 1,149 __ _____ 7,733 ___ ___ 0m 37s
    ========= ======= ============= ============== ================
    Avg __ ___ 206.69 ____ 1,152.25 ___ _ 7,732.25 __ _ 0m 35s
    Total __________ __ _ 18,825 _____ _ 87,793 ___ ___ 7m 5s

    Last edited by Dom12; Nov 19 2009 at 11:11 AM.
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

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  2. #2
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Nice numbers....

    I know myself, I run percision for all things non solo or moors related (sure im not the only one) with the nerfs we took to just about everything last time they are pretty close i'd agree. Never actually did any type of hard testing like this though. Nice work.


    OT (kinda)

    Can we please have a decent slow thats not soley in S:S?!?!?!?!?!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000034d99/01007/signature.png]Jmez[/charsig]
    Jmez Warbringer The Warlord

  3. #3
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by jmez View Post
    Nice numbers....

    I know myself, I run percision for all things non solo or moors related (sure im not the only one)
    Did I read that wrong, or did you say you use S:P in the moors?
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  4. #4
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by auzzies_own View Post
    Did I read that wrong, or did you say you use S:P in the moors?
    With creeps high avoidances S:P would actually make sense.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/072060100000d4fb7/signature.png]Correr[/charsig]

  5. #5
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by auzzies_own View Post
    Did I read that wrong, or did you say you use S:P in the moors?
    I'm guessing the non was meant to apply to solo and moors.... so no.
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  6. #6
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Possibly interesting, but I would suggest using the same skill rotation for both stances. I would start with ISB in strength as you are going to see your DPS increase just from changing your rotation (in my experience).
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  7. #7
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesia View Post
    Possibly interesting, but I would suggest using the same skill rotation for both stances. I would start with ISB in strength as you are going to see your DPS increase just from changing your rotation (in my experience).
    I might try some tests of that theory, but I think the extra time at range would make up for most of that discrepancy since my ranged AAs hit for about a hundred points more than my melee AAs on average. Not to mention the extra time being able to use induction shots without setbacks.
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
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  8. #8
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    I'm more concerned that PS->RoA->PS->BS->PS comes earlier in your S:P lineup than S:S, meaning you're more likely to still have the focus required to pull it off. More later, but the forum just ate a nice crunchy post of mine, and I have to rewrite it.
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  9. #9
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    I think the avg fight duration was interesting. I would expect shorter fights if there's a significant advantage in DPS with one stance or the other. Interestingly, the fights lasted pretty much the same amount of time. This infers that S:P has abt the same dps as S:S, but S:P may or may not out perform S:S.

    Another point... you went with a 3/0/4 build for both stances (as a control, i assume). imo, if you're going to compare S:S with S:P, you should set your traits up so that one stance doesnt have an advantage over the other stance. Basically, I'm suggesting that you trait 2/1/4 or 1/2/4 or 0/3/4. that way, you don't have that nagging +5% S:S dmg thing to worry about with 3 bowmasters (as you stated in "The Factors" section).

    Finally, I assume you're looking to analyze stances when soloing single mobs, right? What about mobs lvl61+? I would assume S:P would gain some ground on S:S if the mob is above level.... it'd be interesting to test, imo.

    From what I can gather from your numbers, S:S and S:P are pretty much the same as far as dps is concerned. I wonder how much an effect a 4th bowmaster trait would help S:S? Would the +15% S:S dmg give the edge to S:S? Or, what about the Enduring Precision trait (with a different skill rotation)? Would that give an edge to S:P?

    Very cool stuff all-around. thx for your hard work!
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  10. #10
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by atteSmythe View Post
    I'm more concerned that PS->RoA->PS->BS->PS comes earlier in your S:P lineup than S:S, meaning you're more likely to still have the focus required to pull it off. More later, but the forum just ate a nice crunchy post of mine, and I have to rewrite it.
    The QS > Pen combos that fill the gap preceding the Pen > RoA > Pen sequence in S:S tend to be close enough to focus neutral that I almost always had enough focus to do the Pen > RoA > Pen sequence when the mob reached melee range.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScrappyTheGreat View Post
    I think the avg fight duration was interesting. I would expect shorter fights if there's a significant advantage in DPS with one stance or the other. Interestingly, the fights lasted pretty much the same amount of time. This infers that S:P has abt the same dps as S:S, but S:P may or may not out perform S:S.
    The difference in DPS was relatively small, and the average duration varied by 1 second for both the L59 mobs and the L60 mobs. I think in a longer test (assuming the DPS difference remained), you'd see an expanded duration gap.

    Another point... you went with a 3/0/4 build for both stances (as a control, i assume). imo, if you're going to compare S:S with S:P, you should set your traits up so that one stance doesnt have an advantage over the other stance. Basically, I'm suggesting that you trait 2/1/4 or 1/2/4 or 0/3/4. that way, you don't have that nagging +5% S:S dmg thing to worry about with 3 bowmasters (as you stated in "The Factors" section).
    Honestly, I used 3/0/4 cause that's what I always use. Like I said, my initial intent wasn't to compare S:S & S:P. I think using 3/0/4 is a pretty good baseline for this test because it's a fairly popular build. If S:P is just as good as S:S in 3/0/4, that would be a very compelling reason for many hunters to start using S:P in groups instead of trying to get into S:S any time they thought they could get away with it. I'm less concerned with the sterile differences between the stances, and more with the "real world" differences. I don't see people dropping their BM traits (I know I won't be any time soon), so showing S:P > S:S in an 0/3/4 setup isn't worth much to me.

    Finally, I assume you're looking to analyze stances when soloing single mobs, right? What about mobs lvl61+? I would assume S:P would gain some ground on S:S if the mob is above level.... it'd be interesting to test, imo.
    Not necessarily. Soloing single mobs is the easiest way to test until I can find myself a pocket tank. Given that, my thought is to test in a way that some of the results can be translated to other cases. I'd prefer a way to test the two stances in a way that applies directly to group play, but that's harder to do.

    I agree, testing against +level mobs would be interesting to see if S:P pulled ahead in that case. Again, however, that complicates the testing process since a) I'm not sure where a good place to find a handful of 61s to test against, and b) that would up the chance of having my testing inconvenienced by the occasional defeat. That said, tho, if you know of a place where I could find some good L61 candidates, I might give it a go..

    From what I can gather from your numbers, S:S and S:P are pretty much the same as far as dps is concerned. I wonder how much an effect a 4th bowmaster trait would help S:S? Would the +15% S:S dmg give the edge to S:S? Or, what about the Enduring Precision trait (with a different skill rotation)? Would that give an edge to S:P?
    I would assume (hope?) the 4th BM trait would push S:S up by about the 10% that it's supposed to give. And that'd certainly be interesting to see. However, I don't see 4/0/3 w/ S:S as a viable build for group work. I don't PvP and only solo when there's no one around to group with, my main concern is maximizing group utility. With that in mind, I think the threat and power penalties in 4/0/3 S:S are too high to consider as an option.

    Very cool stuff all-around. thx for your hard work!
    Heh.. you can thank the pending expansion. I feel like I'm in a bit of a holding pattern 'till Dec 1. I've pretty much been just testing different things out for the past couple weeks in my solo time cause I don't have much else to do.
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  11. #11
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by auzzies_own View Post
    Did I read that wrong, or did you say you use S:P in the moors?
    Yea, sorry I may have mis-typed that or whatever. Kinda tired

    but yea.....I run S:S in the moors or doing solo stuff. S:P during raid/grp runs
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  12. #12
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    with 3 BM 4 HM... I parse 272dps average from 60 pulpums.... using needful haste.

    I have first age L59 xbow with both crit multi's maxed.

    The reason why I believe its best to use needful haste is that without it you just spend too much time in melee range which really just hammers your dps to the point the parse can become close to meaningless depending on the mob.

    The ideal parse might be to test vs signature archers down by LC in the moors... as you wouldnt have to melee at all. Of course you need to avoid creeps!

    If I get time i'll do some parses without NH on 60 pulpums in S:P
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  13. #13
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    with 3 BM 4 HM... I parse 272dps average from 60 pulpums.... using needful haste.

    I have first age L59 xbow with both crit multi's maxed.

    The reason why I believe its best to use needful haste is that without it you just spend too much time in melee range which really just hammers your dps to the point the parse can become close to meaningless depending on the mob.

    The ideal parse might be to test vs signature archers down by LC in the moors... as you wouldnt have to melee at all. Of course you need to avoid creeps!

    If I get time i'll do some parses without NH on 60 pulpums in S:P
    Well, the pulpums attack slow enough that skill setbacks aren't too big an issue. I'd guess the melee AAs vs ranged are probably much more significant in terms of DPS hit. I could probably do the test w/ NH, mostly I just didn't want to have to wait for it to cool between pulls.

    If you want to contribute to the test, doing so with NH is fine, since you'll be comparing your S:S DPS to your S:P DPS. There's not much point comparing at your results in one stance to my results in the other since our gear is different.

    Since my goal is more to apply my findings to group play, I think I might go back and redo the S:S test using the S:P shot rotation so that melee time will be more equalized. I could just turn AAs off I guess.. but I probably shouldn't do that cause I'd end up forgetting to turn them back on next time I'm really playing.

    It might also be interesting (as someone pointed out above) to look at what happens if I swap Enduring Precision in for the S:P tests. If I were to go to playing primarily in S:P, I might do that, so it'd make sense to test that too.
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  14. #14
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    some very good stuff
    For some reason, i got the impression that you were trying to isolate S:S and S:P to see how they stacked up against each other "in a vacuum". like you were trying to measure: "how do the specific benefits of S:P stack up against the specific benefits of S:S?" Hence, my suggestion of a 0/3/4 build. I agree that such a test would not be all that meaningful.

    Since you're going for a test to measure S:S vs S:P in a group situation, I agree that 4/0/3 is not the way to go... h*ll, I have to watch myself sometimes with power/threat in a 3/0/4 build. I personally run with 2/1/4 most of the time.

    Concerning avg fight duration, I am skeptical that the time duration gap would expand on a longer fight, simply because there is so much error (re: variance) involved with a stat like that. Count me as "cautiously optimistic"

    What I will agree with is that your test does show a similarity in the two stances that has been deemed false in the past. If S:P is similar to S:S in dps, then it begs the question... Why use S:S and deal with power/threat issues if I can use S:P and save my power? Obviously, the answer is... use S:P!!!

    It's tough to translate dps on pulpums into dps in a grp situation. You asked where you can find a lvl61+ mob to test on? Well, i can't remember what lvl the Watcher is, but tanking the tentacles might be a good spot to test some numbers. It would provide an above-lvl mob, and it would double as a group situation. But, then you have to deal with the risk of death.
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  15. #15
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    In looking at S:P in the past, I've concentrated on the reduction to block and evade chances, but it never really occurred to me that the miss chance may be approximately the same. As far as I can tell, S:P should have its advantages under the following circumstances:

    • against a mob with unhindered b/e chance
    • against mobs with higher b/e/miss chance (sig+, level higher, etc.)

    Unfortunately, they're ratings now, and b/p/e/miss doesn't show up in the combat log (ahem), so it's hard to know exactly how much benefit we're talking about. I'm going to make 3 assumptions that give S:P the benefit of the doubt, and see how the numbers come out.

    1. S:P's b/e bonus was 5% in SoA, and is no more in Moria, giving us an upper limit
    2. the miss chance bonus is the same 5%
    3. b/e/miss calculation, like crit/dev.crit, is additive

    Fortunately, each mob appears to just have the same value for its own b/p/e, whether you're fighting a spider, shield-bearing goblin, or a rock.

    So I whipped up a quick spreadsheet to display this very, very simple model...I'm sure I'm missing a lot here in terms of the actual function, but I think it's worth looking at in theory, anyway.

    The following graphs will give you % of unstanced damage dealt (shown in blue) versus switching to strength (damage bonus for unchanged miss chance) and precision (unchanged damage for miss chance bonus). The variable is the miss rate - given how much you miss against a certain mob, how much will a b/e/miss rate reduction help your DPS? So the way to look at this would be "If I'm missing Pulpums/Dragonets/Tentacles 15% of the time in S:S, am I better off switching to S:P?"

    Best Case Scenario
    I think it's hard to argue that S:P will ever be better than this graph shows it. Full 5% reduction from b/p and miss and avoidance rates additive. S:P beats S:S until you're hitting more than 90% of the time in S:S


    4% Bonus
    What if S:P is only slightly less effective than the best case scenario? Crossover point is now 80% S:S hit rate, exactly.


    2% Bonus
    Crossover at 40% S:S hit rate
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  16. #16
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Best Case, Behind Mob
    Assuming the best case, but you're behind the mob, so you're not getting all of S:P's benefits. Crossover is at 71% hit rate


    Best Case, Mob Disabled
    Assuming the 5% bonus best case scenario again, but the mob is disabled (stun, etc.), so you're only getting the miss chance bonus from S:P. Crossover at 34% miss rate.


    So, the question is really how much of a reduction in miss rate (versus typical and/or specific mobs) does S:P really gain us? And did I just make a lot of pretty pictures for no good reason?

    And, again, I'm not trying to be all 'zomg graphs ahm an authoratay,' but it was the best way to display the tables generated...and those helped me see that a 15% reduction in miss rate is actually better than a 15% increase in damage, something I think I had wrong in my head before.
    Last edited by atteSmythe; Nov 04 2009 at 07:20 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    i'm setting up my parses now.

    I'm going to test on 60 pulpums because I can keep them at range longer and i've done a lot of parsing on them.

    i like to add in rain of arrows and merciful so will be able to see if thats more efficient than just QS-PS
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  18. #18
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Looks like Strength Stance is WAI based on my parses.
    3BM 4HM
    Critical Eye, Deadly Precision, Swift and True,
    Fast Draw, arrow storm, Strong Draw, Swift Recovery
    I went for arrow storm instead of resolute aim since i wasn't testing with NH so resolute aim is pointless.
    L59 FA xbow. 19% induction/focus crit multi
    11.4% ranged crit chance

    S:S L60 Pûlpums:
    316 202 224 330 247 254 234 326 259 245 (avg 263.7 DPS)

    S:P L60 Pûlpums:
    280 199 254 212 216 219 217 224 203 287 (avg 231.1 DPS)

    Strength Stance was 14% more dps
    Now whether that 14% is worth the extra power/threat cost is another story.... situational I guess.
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  19. #19
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldcyde View Post
    S:S L60 Pûlpums:
    316 202 224 330 247 254 234 326 259 245 (avg 263.7 DPS)

    S:P L60 Pûlpums:
    280 199 254 212 216 219 217 224 203 287 (avg 231.1 DPS)

    Strength Stance was 14% more dps
    Now whether that 14% is worth the extra power/threat cost is another story.... situational I guess.
    I'm not sure the numbers are as definitive as that though, especially considering it's only 10 tests. There are 3 high numbers you're using in the S:S stance averages but really only two in S:P, if we throw all of those out we get
    S:S 237.8 DPS
    S:P 218 DPS

    for a difference of 9%. Still greater than I would've thought, and especially in a group situation where the mob would be facing away from you disabling its block, S:S comes out as the clear 'dps' winner. It would be interesting to see a parse vs turtle in S:S with 3 BM vs S:P with 4 HT with the enduring precision trait, and seeing whether that extra focus every 10s turns the balance.

  20. #20
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    yes no parse with such small sample size is definitive.

    Strength gives me +15% plus the QS slow.
    Precision gives me QS crits, less misses, and less avoidance.

    So even at a guess we can assume Str is going to be 5-20% better.

    which played out in my parses.

    Does this mean Str is better because of that... no because benefit is situational depending on your gear and the encounter.
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  21. #21
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by ScrappyTheGreat View Post
    It's tough to translate dps on pulpums into dps in a grp situation. You asked where you can find a lvl61+ mob to test on? Well, i can't remember what lvl the Watcher is, but tanking the tentacles might be a good spot to test some numbers. It would provide an above-lvl mob, and it would double as a group situation. But, then you have to deal with the risk of death.
    My kin is pretty close to taking on the watcher, but I haven't done it yet. I certainly will be parsing when I go into that fight, but it may not be in the next couple weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by atteSmythe View Post
    [graphs & thoughts]
    Those certainly do clarify your point. I just wish, as you mentioned, that the combat log listed BPE/miss. That would make it much easier to see the benefit of S:P.

    One thing that made me think of is that if I want to translate these tests to fights like the turtle, I'll pretty much have to find a guard to take along so I can be shooting at the mobs back. Having the mob in melee doesn't really break the test because it hinders both stances. But the fact that S:P loses some of its benefit when a mob is properly tanked is certainly a factor.

    That said tho, a lot of the time a tank won't necessarily be able to properly position the mobs we're burning down in a given instance (or they just won't cause they're not that good at their job), so we still spend a lot of time shooting mobs in the face and there is still some merit in the test as is.
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  22. #22
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    Thoughts??
    One thing. If I'm going to roll S:P in Huntsmen 3/0/4, I'm definitely going to trait Enduring Precision over Strong Draw. I've found the combo of EP with Deadly Precision keeps the Focus pool full beyond the need for a 1 Focus gain on PS or HoA.

    The numbers are very, very interesting, but I still don't like the idea of running S:P primary without a FA bow. Especially in PvP, where I tested it in the Moors on a SA and found the diminished DPS and loss of QS Slow to just be too much.
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  23. #23

    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennyboy View Post
    With creeps high avoidances S:P would actually make sense.
    With creeps higher mitigation S:S would make sense, actually. That and you aren't depriving yourself of your role defining and largely necessary slow. S : P in the moors is a joke.


    That aside.

    The margin of difference is too minimal for me to take much notice considering in terms of burst damage / taking crits into consideration S : S is obviously better. I may be being dismissive but S: P never sees the light of day unless I feel like using it vs something higher level than me and even then I don't find it amounts to being much better, if at all.

    To add it seems S :P was more favorable on lower level mobs, which makes even less sense to me than a Hunter using S : P.
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  24. #24
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    To add it seems S :P was more favorable on lower level mobs, which makes even less sense to me than a Hunter using S : P.
    I suspect this is because the bonus from S:P appears to be a direct ratings decrease on the mob. Ratings get less effective as you level, so S:P's bonus increases to remain relevant versus on-level mobs...but when you apply that to a mob of a lower level, not only is the rating value higher than when you were 59, but it's more efficient to begin with.

    ...hard to verify, but it's a thought.
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  25. #25
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    Re: S:P vs S:S -- is S:S really our best DPS tool??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    I might try some tests of that theory, but I think the extra time at range would make up for most of that discrepancy since my ranged AAs hit for about a hundred points more than my melee AAs on average. Not to mention the extra time being able to use induction shots without setbacks.
    If you trait for the quickest inductions possible, use NH and test in FoS on Pulpums and trash, you will do more dmg opening with ISB on both (trash should be dead before they get to you and Pulpums are going to melee with you anyway). Opening with QS and may result in the Pulpum taking a few more seconds to get to you but you waste most/all of that time on the ISB animation doing NO DPS. If you instead open with ISB you keep your dmg output maximized throughout the fight.

    I didn't do hundreds of tests of each - I am just saying you should try it. Im my testing it was obviously better.

    As an aside, not using the same rotation and claiming an improvement due to S:P is not true. You have to do an apples to apples comparison to purely compare the effect of the stances - this means the shot rotation (along with everything else but the stance) needs to be constant in both tests.
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