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  1. #51
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Well I don't approve of the way you play your captain at all if you rarely use words of courage, which is not only our most reliable direct heal, but adds a nice healing over time effect as well. Even if you aren't main healing, I feel you should definitely be using this one, at least on the main tank - nor does it force you to watch their hp bar all day like you oddly claim. But hey, play your captain like you want.

    And again, against a single boss you will only have a 15% chance to activate rally cry. that just isn't going to cut it. I was never aruging pre-emptive vs reactive healing or w/e. What I was arguing is your implication rally cry is our best heal and out-weighs words of courage. I just don't agree, and any captain who relies only on rally cry to do his/her healing is going to have a lot of dead tanks to raise.

    It's got nothing to do with pre-emptive or reactive.
    That's because that paragraph wasn't in response to your post. Only the "Heralds are nice CC" which, they aren't.

    Rallying Cry is our best heal, with the cooldown legacy it is incredible. Most reliable heal, no, but it's certainly our most powerful and most important heal. I'm also not relying only on Rallying Cry, that is false. Shield Brother, Inspire, and Valiant Strike provide a solid amount of HoT without the need to be hitting WoC all the time. If I see someone taking an excessive amount of dmg, then I'll chip in with WoC if I can, but if we have another person who is "main healing" then both of us watching to make sure everyone is always topped up is just a waste of time, power, and effort.

    And Heralds do CC nicely.
    Being able to keep one mob busy is swell, but doesn't qualify as good CC. Guess we just have different standards.

  2. #52
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by brasswire12 View Post
    That's because that paragraph wasn't in response to your post. Only the "Heralds are nice CC" which, they aren't.

    Rallying Cry is our best heal, with the cooldown legacy it is incredible. Most reliable heal, no, but it's certainly our most powerful and most important heal. I'm also not relying only on Rallying Cry, that is false. Shield Brother, Inspire, and Valiant Strike provide a solid amount of HoT without the need to be hitting WoC all the time. If I see someone taking an excessive amount of dmg, then I'll chip in with WoC if I can, but if we have another person who is "main healing" then both of us watching to make sure everyone is always topped up is just a waste of time, power, and effort.



    Being able to keep one mob busy is swell, but doesn't qualify as good CC. Guess we just have different standards.
    I guess, cause I love my herald's CC ability. So we have different standards indeed.

    I disagree rally cry is our best heal. In certain situations it is, in others it isn't. And keeping WoC hot on the main tank is never a bad idea, i don't care if you are main healing or not, and it certainly isn't a waste of time, power, and effort.

    We just don't agree.

  3. #53
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    I guess, cause I love my herald's CC ability. So we have different standards indeed.

    I disagree rally cry is our best heal. In certain situations it is, in others it isn't. And keeping WoC hot on the main tank is never a bad idea, i don't care if you are main healing or not, and it certainly isn't a waste of time, power, and effort.

    We just don't agree.
    Rally Cry is the best heal we have for several reasons.
    It is the cheapest fellowship heal in the game, hitting everyone for 600-800 moral before crits.
    This by it self already makes this a powerful heal and with the CD legacy it can keep people up the group though trash mobs.
    Then you add the Power Heal. Lets face it, there are only two skills in the game that can return power to other people, Loremasters share the power, and Rally Cry (when traited and it always is). Now 200 avg power return to EVERYONE in the fellowship is huge.
    Add to that Legacies and DN set bonus and you can do that every 8.3 seconds?

    Now WoC is important but to stop adding to the DPS just to throw it on the main tank when you see the main healer has things under control is a huge waste of power, moral and time.
    Now not saying you should not do it, but do it when it is warrnted. In the mean time you got SoW, Inspire and Valiant Strike to help the main healer with the healing, along with Rally Cry.

    Now as for bosses. If you got adds, then Rally Cry with PA comes ahead on healing over WoC just for the fact its a Fellowship heal. Against a single boss with no adds to worry about, again Inspire and SoW should be more then enough. If people are getting hit a lot or the healer is not keeping up there are other issues to address then not using WoC.
    WoC is to help if things are getting behind so that the healer can stablize and people get into proper positions.
    If you need to spam WoC to keep the tank up there are other issues to worry about.
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  4. #54
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pillager101 View Post

    Now as for bosses. If you got adds, then Rally Cry with PA comes ahead on healing over WoC just for the fact its a Fellowship heal. Against a single boss with no adds to worry about, again Inspire and SoW should be more then enough. If people are getting hit a lot or the healer is not keeping up there are other issues to address then not using WoC.
    WoC is to help if things are getting behind so that the healer can stablize and people get into proper positions.
    If you need to spam WoC to keep the tank up there are other issues to worry about.
    I agree except for 3-mans or when minstrel has emergency - then WoC should be used liberally.
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  5. #55
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    I guess, cause I love my herald's CC ability. So we have different standards indeed.
    ....
    This is just a question of definition. In my book, CC means eliminating damage done to the party because damage means healing has to be expended, even if it's on a pet. By my definition, CC means dazes, roots, fears, and, to a limited extent, stuns. Sure, the herald can off tank, but that is tanking, and the party will usually be better off having the tank tank all the mobs because he will take less overall damage and require less total healing.

    I certainly see the value in having that herald around to tie up mobs, especially ranged mobs. I just don't consider that "Crowd Control".
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000003071/01008/signature.png]Kalbarad[/charsig]

  6. #56
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    CC is obviously Crowd Control.

    Now to me that encompasses tanking, off tanking as well as roots, dazes, fears, etc.

    Basically i see CC as a way to control the fight and damage.
    Now i am not saying damage mitigation or lowering damage taken but controling where the damage is being dealt to handle it via healing or mitigations.

    One example is the standard Tanking. The tank takes all the adds and mobs on to them selves.
    Now you know where the majority if not all of the damage will go to and can decide how to deal with it. Add an off tank for a mob and you again know where the damamge is going, it is now split between two memebers of the group or one member and a pet.
    Roots and Dazes and Fears again do the same task as in they control where the damage is being dealt. You root one mob and you know that it will not contribute to the damage dealt to anyone.

    It is all about damage control, where it is going and moving it around. That is in my opinion the most basic definition of CC

    To get back to the off topic of Herald CC.
    Yes they can do CC by off tanking but the main question is, is that desirable. They have not the best mitigations, and they do not really have ways to control threat making them sometimes a loose cannon, or ineffective at holding agro from the healers
    Last edited by Pillager101; Apr 12 2010 at 05:52 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000015b084/01008/signature.png]Dropofhoney[/charsig]

  7. #57
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pillager101 View Post
    In the end i do not see it as making a big difference. It basically boils down to the MIN/MAXers.

    People who want every extra bit of number in as high as possible or low if you are talking about things like attack speed and such.

    If you as a captain are taken in as a primary healer then your job does not change you are still the support class, the buffer and off tanker. You heal though your attacks and your buffs. You are taken is usually as the group feels that they do not need the big heals of an RK or Mini and they can use the spot for extra DPS or CC. Either way that translates to things dying faster and people taking less damamger hence a Cap can easily main heal.

    Now i can also tell you that you going in with 600 will and me coming in with 300 Will will make very little difference on our abilities to heal the group and i do not feel like i need to be careful since my more is lower or my mitigations dropped.

    In the end it is all about play style and both are effective as proven here. I prefer not to stack Will but am aware of it. Other want to stack Will.
    The main argument for it is that many who stack will have what is in my opinion the wrong reason for it. It seems like they believe it will make them a supper healer which it will not.

    Also please do not give all of this 65 per heal equates to 1K+ healing over a minute. That means nothing really to this since you need to provide a side number of how much that same amount of Will boosted a mini BC and take that over a min and you will see that 1K+ healing is meaingless it is not worth mentioning. Also you need to add how much a person takes damamge per minute.
    Someone can take a ton more then 1K+ per miniute and again your WoC spam 1K+/min looks again as pitiful as an extra 65 moral to one cast.

    Sure, I'll own up to the label of min/maxer.

    I looked at my stats last night. When I swap into my healing gear my tactical healing goes from 14% to 18.7%. My Will goes from ~410 to ~575 and my Fate from ~ 450 to ~590, all including IDoME (I don't have the notes with exact numbers in front of me right now). My might takes a hit and my agility also to a lesser extent, both dropping to ~400 to 450. I loose some PA/DB crits for rallying cry, but I should get more critical heals. And, hopefully there will be enough adds dying that I don't have to rely on PA/DB anyway. But, this works for me. I've healed some interesting places in this set up and it's worked well. It is noticeably more effective for me healing in this build than in my usual build. It doesn't make me a super-stud healer, but I think it helps. I'm not inclined to muck with it.

    The 65 moral per WoC was not my number, someone else made that estimate. Assuming that estimate is correct, no matter how you build, if you are solo-healing an instance, you will come down to a point where you have to spam WoC. Now, if you have to spam WOC for 18 seconds to get through a damage spike, wouldn't you rather your tank finish with an extra 390 morale? Because that is what an extra 65 morale per cast will get you. 390 morale is not insignificant, and I have pulled people back from the brink of defeat when they have had less morale than that.

    As far as minstrels, are concerned, I'm sure you are correct in saying that will is much more effective in improving minstrel healing than it is for captains. The thing is, that doesn't matter. What might matter is if you say that will is not effective enough for captains. I could get behind you on that. Otherwise, I care not one bit about how effective will is for minstrels, I only care about what I have to do in order to get the job done.
    Last edited by SGWB; Apr 13 2010 at 05:08 PM.
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  8. #58
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by SGWB View Post
    Sure, I'll own up to the label of min/maxer.

    I looked at my stats last night. When I swap into my healing gear my tactical healing goes from 14% to 18.7%. My Will goes from ~410 to ~575 and my Fate from ~ 450 to ~590, all including IDoME (I don't have the notes with exact numbers in front of me right now). My might takes a hit and my agility also to a lesser extent, both dropping to ~400 to 450. I loose some PA/DB crits for rallying cry, but I should get more critical heals. And, hopefully there will be enough adds dying that I don't have to rely on PA/DB anyway. But, this works for me. I've healed some interesting places in this set up and it's worked well. It is noticeably more effective for me healing in this build than in my usual build. It doesn't make me a super-stud healer, but I think it helps. I'm not inclined to muck with it.

    The 65 moral per WoC was not my number, someone else made that estimate. Assuming that estimate is correct, no matter how you build, if you are solo-healing an instance, you will come down to a point where you have to spam WoC. Now, if you have to spam WOC for 18 seconds to get through a damage spike, wouldn't you rather your tank finish with an extra 390 morale? Because that is what an extra 65 morale per cast will get you. 390 morale is not insignificant, and I have pulled people back from the brink of defeat when they have had less morale than that.

    As far as minstrels, are concerned, I'm sure you are correct in saying that will is much more effective in improving minstrel healing than it is for captains. The thing is, that doesn't matter. What might matter is if you say that will is not effective enough for captains. I could get behind you on that. Otherwise, I care not one bit about how effective will is for minstrels, I only care about what I have to do in order to get the job done.
    Nothing wrong with being a min/maxer everyone eventually gets there.

    As for Will, i am not saying it is not important, i am saying that it does not have the effect that many people state it has and are almost demanding that is a must that you have high will to heal effectively.

    I can heal as effectively as you can with my 350 will after buffs. Yes i may need to do an extra WoC or ensure that i keep that SoW up at all times, but the difference will not be that great and in the end we both accomplish our task.

    As to that increase of 14 to 18.5 i did that too and lets say the numbers vs costs were meh.

    Loose 1k moral to gain 500 power and 25 extra moral per WoC and RC heal? Also take a dip in Melee Crit. Not worth it in my opinion. The power is nice to have but i do not run out of power now when i heal so it is a moot point.

    Now the number 65 it really does not matter what the number is when you use that as your basis for extra moral healed over a period of time unless you are talking about HoT.

    When you say that +X Will boosts the Moral heal of WoC by Y and that equates to Z extra moral over time period T, you also need to add damage taken over that time period.

    I can heal a tank for 10K moral over a minute but does that really matter if they took 1K damage over that same period?

    What i was getting at, is that was a pointless stat to mention since it was missing the comparative component of damage received over time.


    Now in the end since everything is percentage based and our base heals are low, the percentage is not going to make our heals massive. So it all boils down to play style. If you feel you need 550+ Will to heal effectively then by all means go for it, but do not tell everyone that this is what you must do to be an effective healer on a captain since it is obviously not true.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000015b084/01008/signature.png]Dropofhoney[/charsig]

  9. #59

    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    The flip side of that argument is that if you stack your melee stats, are you becoming a lot more effective in the non-healing part of your class? I've played around with it a bit lately (given how easy it is to get high will jewelry in Mirkwood), and I came to the conclusion that going the other way doesn't particularly add a bunch either (in my case about 5% melee effectiveness). Captain DPS is poor inside of HoH anyway, trying to min/max it isn't going to make or break your performance. My advice would be a balanced build, find a Morale/Power level you like and roll with that.
    "Argle-bargle morble whoosh?"

    .

  10. #60
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by YvainBlakhart View Post
    The flip side of that argument is that if you stack your melee stats, are you becoming a lot more effective in the non-healing part of your class? I've played around with it a bit lately (given how easy it is to get high will jewelry in Mirkwood), and I came to the conclusion that going the other way doesn't particularly add a bunch either (in my case about 5% melee effectiveness). Captain DPS is poor inside of HoH anyway, trying to min/max it isn't going to make or break your performance. My advice would be a balanced build, find a Morale/Power level you like and roll with that.
    I agree with this completely.
    A balanced build will be as effective in the primary rolls in the raid/group as a min/max one with a lot less time changing things around and loosing out on some key aspects like a ton of moral, crit rating, etc.

    like i said play with what ever works for you, but do not say that you must have this in order to be effective. The beauty of a captain is that they can be played very differently and there really is very little in terms of what they need to bring to the raid, and those are more of Legacy based then stats/gear.
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  11. #61

    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    My cappy is only Lvl 60 so i cant say alot about the SoM stuff, but i run a fairly balanced set. I lean heavily on Fate and Vit with Will as semi distant 3rd. i love it since i rarely have a problem with power while healin.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/022040000000d08b9/01003/signature.png]Dravidor[/charsig]
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  12. #62
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    I like having my stats higher to lower in vit/might/agilty/will/fate. As long as I dont run out of power im fine, and specifically during the durchest fight we use two captains as 3/4 on the aggro table to ensure durchest hits us with the threat debuff and doesnt run after a squishy. During a long boss fight such as this I have a greater chance to open reactionaries because there are few adds. With good gear and know how cappies can out dps champs and burgs on single targets, but that means not using WoC much.
    .

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  13. #63

    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raowyn View Post
    cappies can out dps champs and burgs on single targets
    dude........wut lol

    edit: you mean like level 30 champs/burgs? cause I could probably do that
    Kraken, Thesungodra

  14. #64

    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raowyn View Post
    With good gear and know how cappies can out dps champs and burgs on single targets, but that means not using WoC much.
    Screenies or it didn't happen.

    Or, to beat IowaHawk to it, citation please.
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  15. #65
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raowyn View Post
    I like having my stats higher to lower in vit/might/agilty/will/fate. As long as I dont run out of power im fine, and specifically during the durchest fight we use two captains as 3/4 on the aggro table to ensure durchest hits us with the threat debuff and doesnt run after a squishy. During a long boss fight such as this I have a greater chance to open reactionaries because there are few adds. With good gear and know how cappies can out dps champs and burgs on single targets, but that means not using WoC much.
    I gotta call shenanigans on this as well. Possibly true pre-mirkwood when compared to a champ traited for strait up AOE damage or a burg traited for CC, and the captain got a lucky string of Devastating Blow crits.
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  16. #66
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    lool....there's no way any Captain post-Mirk is going to out-DPS a champ or burg....or RK.....or hunter......or LM......or probably even a guardian in OP.....def not a mins in WS, etc. They're way toward the bottom now - unless you crit on every dev blow, then maybe.

    Quite frankly, it's kind of a bummer what they've done with the class. The DN set Will nerf would have been horrible if not for the awesome 5-set bonus. But now the BG set.....bleh. I understand that tying Will in tightly with outgoing healing necessitated it....but still...I wonder how well we'll function in the next gate.

    Captains are buffers and off-healers. Who is srsly going to take them as auxillary DPS unless they are desperate or just screwing around? They have like 6 damage skills for cripessake. I'd pick about 4 other classes over a captain as an off-tank, thanks. I can count on one hand the number of times going anything but 5 HH was even remotely useful for anything important - especially in a group.

    So why then, must they build our might and agility? I don't need agility for sure. I mean, I don't have aggro and I don't attack from range and I don't attack often enough for the agility crit modifier to even matter.

    In all honesty, I build my cappie on Vit/Will/Fate/Might/Agility, but that's only when I have an actual choice....(read: ditch radiance, pls) ;-)

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  17. #67
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    lool....there's no way any Captain post-Mirk is going to out-DPS a champ or burg....or RK.....or hunter......or LM......or probably even a guardian in OP.....def not a mins in WS, etc. They're way toward the bottom now - unless you crit on every dev blow, then maybe.

    Quite frankly, it's kind of a bummer what they've done with the class. The DN set Will nerf would have been horrible if not for the awesome 5-set bonus. But now the BG set.....bleh. I understand that tying Will in tightly with outgoing healing necessitated it....but still...I wonder how well we'll function in the next gate.

    Captains are buffers and off-healers. Who is srsly going to take them as auxillary DPS unless they are desperate or just screwing around? They have like 6 damage skills for cripessake. I'd pick about 4 other classes over a captain as an off-tank, thanks. I can count on one hand the number of times going anything but 5 HH was even remotely useful for anything important - especially in a group.

    So why then, must they build our might and agility? I don't need agility for sure. I mean, I don't have aggro and I don't attack from range and I don't attack often enough for the agility crit modifier to even matter.

    In all honesty, I build my cappie on Vit/Will/Fate/Might/Agility, but that's only when I have an actual choice....(read: ditch radiance, pls) ;-)
    I do agree with you on some things here, but i must disagree with agility. You do NEED enough to actually hit things, and that Crit + PA + PA targets legacy mean massive RC/WC opening up, and if you got 5 DN peaces you have the ability to keep the fellowship with a nice massive 700 moral per 8.3 seconds and 180 power every 8.3 seconds.
    That is by far the most powerful heal in the game and you do not have to jump though loops to be able to achieve that.
    Yes against bosses we take a seat back, but on trash mobs and adds we shine with the right setup and no Will does not really matter with this.

    But I agree, it seem Turbine heard the calls for bad Captain DPS and instead of fixing it, they gave us a DPS centered set that we kind of have to use in the new RAID and i assume new raids coming out. Very very sad.
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  18. #68
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by IGolbezI View Post
    dude........wut lol

    edit: you mean like level 30 champs/burgs? cause I could probably do that
    No, level 65 champs/burgs.

    But they have to be out of Power. Duh!
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  19. #69
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    I kept stealing aggro from a champ the other day in SG... though I'll cede that if I was playing my champ theres no way that would happen. However, I do regularly become higher on the aggro table than burgs/champs/lms on single targets using my hybrid build, through a combination of DPS and Healing aggro. My melee offense rating is 6200 with just self buffs and I crit a lot.
    .

    Vertigo - 65 Captain - Pariah
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  20. #70

    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raowyn View Post
    I kept stealing aggro from a champ the other day in SG... though I'll cede that if I was playing my champ theres no way that would happen. However, I do regularly become higher on the aggro table than burgs/champs/lms on single targets using my hybrid build, through a combination of DPS and Healing aggro. My melee offense rating is 6200 with just self buffs and I crit a lot.
    aggro =/= DPS

    yea if you get a ton of crits over a short span and they don't, you'll naturally do more damage. but I'd wager that the champ was just slacking.
    Kraken, Thesungodra

  21. #71

    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by IGolbezI View Post
    aggro =/= DPS

    yea if you get a ton of crits over a short span and they don't, you'll naturally do more damage. but I'd wager that the champ was just slacking.
    Maybe the Champ was ebbing to the tank like he should be? Cap's gain aggro in ways other than DPS, though, so it isn't necessarily DPS taking the aggro.

  22. #72

    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by aglach View Post
    Maybe the Champ was ebbing to the tank like he should be? Cap's gain aggro in ways other than DPS, though, so it isn't necessarily DPS taking the aggro.
    depends on the situation, ebbing isn't a necessity.
    Kraken, Thesungodra

  23. #73
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    If you're getting agro over a Champ, they're not doing it right. Sorry. Just the way it is.

    You ran with a bad champ.

    Even with Ebbing.
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  24. #74
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    If the champ ebbing'ed to the guard, I would think the guard would get the aggro, not me
    .

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  25. #75
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felaedor View Post
    If you're getting agro over a Champ, they're not doing it right. Sorry. Just the way it is.

    You ran with a bad champ.

    Even with Ebbing.
    So you are saying a champ in fervor should try to draw all aggro to his unhealable, non-parrying, non-evading backside? If a champ is pulling aggro off the tank, no matter what class it is, he is not doing his job. A DPS player's job is NOT to DPS as hard as possible. A DPS player's job is to DPS as hard as possible without drawing aggro.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000003071/01008/signature.png]Kalbarad[/charsig]

 

 
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