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  1. #1
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    "Will" - Will it matter?

    On all my other characters, will is the lowest stat and fate is second lowest. Does will matter for captains? You need power as a cap. However, you need everything else too. My cap is now level 33. For a while in his 20s fate and will were his highest stats by a large margin. Now he is more balanced with fate and vitality highest and will lowest. I am not too concerned at 33 but wonder what most caps look like at level 60.

    Do you ignore Will? What about fate? Do people min/max or try to achieve some balance with their captains? What stats are most important for the captain?

  2. #2
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by MyotisSodalis View Post
    On all my other characters, will is the lowest stat and fate is second lowest. Does will matter for captains? You need power as a cap. However, you need everything else too. My cap is now level 33. For a while in his 20s fate and will were his highest stats by a large margin. Now he is more balanced with fate and vitality highest and will lowest. I am not too concerned at 33 but wonder what most caps look like at level 60.

    Do you ignore Will? What about fate? Do people min/max or try to achieve some balance with their captains? What stats are most important for the captain?
    I look for a balance, but I put Fate as a priority. The rest sort of just fall in line with gear, but Fate and ICPR are definitely my priorities.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000050b7f1/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  3. #3
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Unfortunately, all stats matter.

    But i would go with higher fate rather then will (ICPR and crits).

    Since you are not capped yet, if i was in your place i would not care until capping to 60 before tweaking the stats.

    Here my list of important stuff

    Might
    Vit
    Fate

    Pure +Morale
    Pure +Melee/Tactical Crits
    Pure +ICPR

    Agi and will are "lesser stats" though agi help the parry and melee crits.

    That's how i'm working my stuff since 2007 and its work great for me.
    [COLOR=#008080]If it isn't about FlameThrower, Grenade and Rocket Launcher, you're playing the wrong classes, race and game..
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  4. #4
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    I disagree with Might as one of the important ones.

    The key ones are IMO

    Vit
    Fate

    The i would say

    Agility
    Will
    Might

    I would do agility over might as the damage bonus from might is so insignifcant for captains its not worth while. Agility help a bit with our crit chance.

    Just remember that December 1st things change, what was once useless may be very important.

  5. #5
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    might is more important for defense than offense. im assuming they are focusing on it for mitigation, not damage.

    not that anyone is trying to do less dmg ;p

  6. #6

    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by SapienChavez View Post
    might is more important for defense than offense. im assuming they are focusing on it for mitigation, not damage.

    not that anyone is trying to do less dmg ;p
    ...I'd have to disagree with that. Might is much better for offence than defence.
    Kraken, Thesungodra

  7. #7

    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    I'd actually argue that the order of stats for a captain is:

    Agility
    Vitality
    Fate
    Will
    Might

    with secondary effects:

    Melee Crit
    Morale
    ICPR
    Tactical Crit

    Because quite frankly, every time we hit a crit, our ICPR goes through the roof... we're not here to be awesome on our own, we're here to make everyone else awesome.
    [img]http://s24.postimg.org/q0qzzx2j9/sig_lotro.jpg[/img]

  8. #8
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reillan View Post
    we're not here to be awesome on our own, we're here to make everyone else awesome.

    Wrong, Captains are awesome. Other classes are not. That's how the world goes. A weak captain will surely made the group look better, but group will make a strong captain look awesome!




    About the might argument... Well it depends on personal taste.
    Might and agi are in the melee crit calculation - yes both of them - , though if i remember well, agi gives a little more. Might will give mitigation (common and wound - again if i remember) and agi will give parry. So it only depends on what you want to focus on. Though having both is even better

    I do agree that things will change again with SoM.


    And about the agree/disagree, we have all the right to write our opinion on the board and explain why we go one way or the other. If its logic and well explain, the point is valid. Even if its different from the mainstream.

    Though somethings are extremely bad, like the effin bow skill..



    PS: I wrote some time that "if i remember" clause because i don't do the head breaking work that i used to do and i went from something like 20h+/w of lotro to 3h and less/w, so all these little game mechanic are far..
    Last edited by MorningStarSE; Nov 10 2009 at 11:46 PM.
    [COLOR=#008080]If it isn't about FlameThrower, Grenade and Rocket Launcher, you're playing the wrong classes, race and game..
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  9. #9
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reillan View Post
    ....
    Because quite frankly, every time we hit a crit, our ICPR goes through the roof... we're not here to be awesome on our own, we're here to make everyone else awesome.
    Does it really? I always figured that a rallying cry paid for itself as far as power, but not much more.


    It's hard for me to sum up in a few words. There are too many stats for me to really give a definitive order to my preferences.

    Vitality - I like to keep it over 450
    Might - I like to have at least 400
    Agility - about the same, at least 400
    Fate - around 400
    Will - whatever. As long as I break 2500 power I have enough will.

    I find that this balance does very well for me in most situations. I keep 2 bracelets with ICPR and I my power consumption is very manageable, even with the relatively low power pool. I also have gear and traits that put me at about -10% incoming melee damage. This rocks for soloing and it means that if I should get aggro or get hit by an AOE I am not putting an undue burden on the group's healer. I can go a little higher, maybe -12 or -14 percent, when I gear up for tanking. However, if I have to main heal I will sacrifice Might and Agility for Fate, Tactical Crit, and +Tactical Crit Multiplier.

    To me, the deal with Fate, Will, and ICPR is that Captains are fairly power hungry. Fate is a nice stat because it increases ICMR very effectively and it makes our healing more effective, but it does not improve ICPR very much. If you find that you are running out of power easily, I feel you should concentrate on either Will (for the larger power pool) or ICPR. I chose to go the +ICPR route.
    Last edited by SGWB; Nov 11 2009 at 06:08 PM.

  10. #10
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    I would say Agility over might. When I crit the combat responses open and those can make or break a group fight going poorly. My preferential order would be:

    Agility
    Vitality
    Will
    Might
    Fate

    That said, a good balance is most important, but with all the new jewelry with ICPR, it more than makes up for fate below 400.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/08207000000007e90/signature.png]Esthero[/charsig]

    Vertigo - 65 Captain - Pariah
    Escyndir - 65 Champion - Pariah
    Dartsk - Murder Herd

  11. #11
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by MorningStarSE View Post
    Wrong, Captains are awesome. Other classes are not. That's how the world goes. A weak captain will surely made the group look better, but group will make a strong captain look awesome!




    About the might argument... Well it depends on personal taste.
    Might and agi are in the melee crit calculation - yes both of them - , though if i remember well, agi gives a little more. Might will give mitigation (common and wound - again if i remember) and agi will give parry. So it only depends on what you want to focus on. Though having both is even better

    I do agree that things will change again with SoM.


    And about the agree/disagree, we have all the right to write our opinion on the board and explain why we go one way or the other. If its logic and well explain, the point is valid. Even if its different from the mainstream.

    Though somethings are extremely bad, like the effin bow skill..



    PS: I wrote some time that "if i remember" clause because i don't do the head breaking work that i used to do and i went from something like 20h+/w of lotro to 3h and less/w, so all these little game mechanic are far..
    Where does it state that Might is calculated into the melee crit chance?
    Only Agility is and it gives small returns so do not go all crazy trying to max it out.
    Might mitigations are small, and you will get more from Vit and +Armor then might.
    The main thing might does is upps the parry rating, and it and agility upp the evade rating.
    I beleive the formula is 2x might = parry rating, and might+agility = evade.

    currently i say that Might is at the lower area of what is used for a captain in raiding situations. Your Fate/Vit are top, followed by Agility/Will then might.

  12. #12
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pillager101 View Post
    I beleive the formula is 2x might = parry rating, and might+agility = evade.
    The correct values: Block = 2x might, Evade = 2x Agility, Parry = Might+Agility

    Therefore, if you don't use a shield, Agility is a better damage avoidance stat. But, Might still adds (minutely) to common damage mitigation and damage bonus. Whereas, Agility is -miss chance and Melee Crit.

  13. #13

    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Currently:
    Fate
    Agility
    Vitality
    Might
    Will

    SoM:
    Will
    Fate
    Agility
    Vitality
    Might

    Captains are support classes, not DPS classes. The only thing important on the DPS side of things is our ability to get a melee crit(agility) on DB/PA during fights without readily available defeat responses.

  14. #14
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    So we all thought SoM would make will critical to max, but I have noticed only marginal increases; 30-60 morale for an extra 200 will (360-560). I also think fate isnt as important as having ICPR jewellry and relics, but a heavy armour class taking secondary aggro over a medium/light armour class will always be needed. Anyone else care to share their revised lvl 65 build?

    With 4 moria rad pieces and the SoM helm/shoulders, running HoH with DPS jewellry I have:

    Might 635
    Agility 534
    Vit 564
    Will 403
    Fate 305

    This is with the war banner and IDOME, but I find I need 3k power these days.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/08207000000007e90/signature.png]Esthero[/charsig]

    Vertigo - 65 Captain - Pariah
    Escyndir - 65 Champion - Pariah
    Dartsk - Murder Herd

  15. #15

    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    not sure about mine atm, but I'm using almost the same gear as Moria. 5 DN 1 BG, same jewellery except for the caster earring from SG, and the two barter rings you get from the ashenlades.

    it's fate/vit heavy, with will behind, and might/agi behind those.

    but hey if you want might/agi/vit BG gear is for you!
    Kraken, Thesungodra

  16. #16
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    I think might is my highest at the moment, but my personal priorities are vit, agi, and will. Fate is my absolute lowest priority.
    [I]What is this crowd control you speak of? I am a captain.[/I]
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0000000d2e4b/01003/signature.png]Ralinor[/charsig]
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  17. #17

    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    I think the key for a captain is to have a balance in all stats and to have jewelry that you can swap out for different situations (dps/healing).

  18. #18
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    The only truth about hybrid stats is that, as some others pointed out, they all matter.

    Might is good for higher damage because our DPS isn't the highest anyway, and is important because many of our skills are melee; might is good for mitigation to make up for shield/defense losses compared to other tanky classes.

    Agility is good for increased crit rating, which increases DPS a little and opens defeat responses that includes more DPS and healing; agility is good for mit/avoidance to make up for shield/defense losses elsewhere; agility is good for hit ratiing so you don't miss as much on normal hits.

    Vitality is important for base morale, period; high vitality also increases other resist ratings that are otherwise difficult to raise; high morale, better reached through +morale gear, is important since our morale pool is critical for some of our skills.

    Will, of course, increases your power pool and fear resistance; since SoM, Will also increases tactical rating and healing output.

    Fate is very important for both ICPR and ICMR; many captains have opted for Fate builds because our main spammable heal is essentially a morale transfer, and ICMR gear is rarer than ICPR; Fate also increases tactical crit rating, which can help when captain base heals are low.

    Whether you stack Will vs. Fate depends mostly on length of battle and playstyle in that regard. Secondary stats like +ICPR/+ICMR/+Morale tend to give better bang for your buck because...

    Something that hasn't been brought up in this thread yet is diminishing returns. I don't believe anyone has fully parsed stat DR post-SoM (and across classes), but some stats apparently have a stronger rate of diminishing returns than others and are thus less valuable to stack very high.

    Threads of interest:
    Diminished returns (Mar. 25, 2010)
    How much ICPR/ICMR per point of Fate? (Mar. 04 2010)

  19. #19
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Will is the most important stat for healing output. If you want to look at it and say 'it only increases my Words of Courage by 20 morale so its not worth it!' I think is the wrong way to look at it. I haven't tested it but most of these 'ratings' affect everyone the same so I would suspect that since the max from will for minstrels is about 21% outgoing healing Captain's would be the same. 21% is 21% regardless if your heal is 1600 morale or 500. It affects all the HoTs as well as the initial heals.

    I am not saying Will is THE most important stat but to blow it off simply because the 50-100 Will pts doesn't increase your heals a huge # is sort of short sighted. Captain's heals are always meant to be slow over time so anything you can do to increase them can't really be a bad thing. If RKs and Minstrels want to max their will to boost healing, I would think HoH captains would want to do the same (at least within reason.) If you are specifically not a healing captain then perhaps will isn't a big deal to you. But I would think all captains have times where power is an issue so keeping a certain amount of power is a good idea also.

    As a secondary question, several have said that fate is the most important to them. I cannot figure why that would be. Just for the tactical crit/ICPR from it? While I don't specifically neglect fate, I don't make any special attempt to raise it up either. I try to raise everything up evenly. Depending on my role, solo more might/agility, in group more will/power.

    Edit: I just saw Trilwych write that the ICMR from fate is helpful. I guess but I find that unless I am getting hit with AoE damage that I can't avoid (like SH sorcerer) the morale drain from WoC never brings me below what Rallying Cry won't heal up easily.
    Last edited by AceItcher; Apr 02 2010 at 12:42 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a000000003fef/signature.png]Jungo[/charsig]
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  20. #20
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by AceItcher View Post
    I try to raise everything up evenly. Depending on my role, solo more might/agility, in group more will/power.

    Edit: I just saw Trilwych write that the ICMR from fate is helpful. I guess but I find that unless I am getting hit with AoE damage that I can't avoid (like SH sorcerer) the morale drain from WoC never brings me below what Rallying Cry won't heal up easily.
    Situationally, if you're in a long fight and unable to pull off RC consistently to maintain your morale while spamming WoC, regen is likely more important. Of course, that really underlines the whole "situational" factor when it comes to captains.

    Are you soloing?
    Are you in a group?
    How are you traited, both virtues and class?
    If in a group, what's your primary role?
    What kind of fight are you going into?

    Sometimes it's easier to switch virtues than gear, so captains can also make up for low stats that way. Rather a fun puzzle, don't you think?

  21. #21
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Indeed it is a puzzle, I suppose it is necessity to be a capt of all trades. As for the short sighted comment, it could just as easily be argued that fate is more important than will during those HoT's since more of them will crit. It's really a moot point. HoT's dont save groups in tough fights, and more crits means more reactionaries. I realize its a preference of play style, and I would rather have a greater chance of critting to restore morale/power to the whole group instead of expending both morale/power on one target.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/08207000000007e90/signature.png]Esthero[/charsig]

    Vertigo - 65 Captain - Pariah
    Escyndir - 65 Champion - Pariah
    Dartsk - Murder Herd

  22. #22
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Unbuffed I have
    Vit 522
    Will 471
    Fate 456
    Might 349
    Agi 323

    I build my captain for groups and support healing. Our DPS as we all know is not that amazing. My outgoing healing unbuffed is only 4,710. Once I hit SM weaponsmith (sometime in the next 5 years ) I plan on making myself some of those crafted runes that raises it. It's always fun for me to see huge crits on WoC and also on my HoTs. My highest WoC so far is You heal 1,556 points of wounds of Culdir. He is a hunter in my kin. I think that might have been in my 5k power build though lol.

    I also want to add that they appear to have lowered the DR on Fate. Here is the pre SoM formula that I know worked. ICPR = 25.509(FATE)^0.5
    I checked today for the first time to see if it still worked and it seems my ICPR is higher than what that calculation says. It's off by about 100. This is after I adjusted for my straight ICPR from gear/relics of course

    Edit: That is with the full watcher set. I really don't like the rad gear for DG nor do I really like the DG gear much :/
    Last edited by Godfather; Apr 02 2010 at 02:35 PM.

  23. #23
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by AceItcher View Post
    Will is the most important stat for healing output. If you want to look at it and say 'it only increases my Words of Courage by 20 morale so its not worth it!' I think is the wrong way to look at it. I haven't tested it but most of these 'ratings' affect everyone the same so I would suspect that since the max from will for minstrels is about 21% outgoing healing Captain's would be the same. 21% is 21% regardless if your heal is 1600 morale or 500. It affects all the HoTs as well as the initial heals.

    I am not saying Will is THE most important stat but to blow it off simply because the 50-100 Will pts doesn't increase your heals a huge # is sort of short sighted. Captain's heals are always meant to be slow over time so anything you can do to increase them can't really be a bad thing. If RKs and Minstrels want to max their will to boost healing, I would think HoH captains would want to do the same (at least within reason.) If you are specifically not a healing captain then perhaps will isn't a big deal to you. But I would think all captains have times where power is an issue so keeping a certain amount of power is a good idea also.

    As a secondary question, several have said that fate is the most important to them. I cannot figure why that would be. Just for the tactical crit/ICPR from it? While I don't specifically neglect fate, I don't make any special attempt to raise it up either. I try to raise everything up evenly. Depending on my role, solo more might/agility, in group more will/power.

    Edit: I just saw Trilwych write that the ICMR from fate is helpful. I guess but I find that unless I am getting hit with AoE damage that I can't avoid (like SH sorcerer) the morale drain from WoC never brings me below what Rallying Cry won't heal up easily.
    Think about it this way, Will is a % increase in healing. So for Minstrels and RKs it is a must as it helps them with their heals. For captains you need to consider the base heal and the HoT. WoC base heal is 500-600 AVG. You can not compare that to a mini BC heal which starts at 1K
    Also our HoT for RC is in the what 20-40 or avg?

    To give up Fate, or Vit for a mediocre gain of 10-20 moral per use is not thinking. Unlike RKs and Minis which live by Will due its +Power and Healing output plus the tactical rating, Captains have other things to worry about.
    We need our large moral pools hence Vit, we need goo Agi for crit and we need Fate for the ICPR and Will for the healing and +Power. I would not stack Will on a captain ever since the pay off is just not worth it. You lower your abilities just to get a pitiful increase in your healing skills.

    As for the person who says fate is last on their list. A Large pools means nothing with low ICPR and it is a lot easier for us to boost our ICPR to get to full then it is to fill up a large Power Pool. Remember we are NOT mini or RKs. Anything more then 3.5 K power is a waste, with the exception of some fight like the LT fight where i say throw on a +power shield and a 1H.

    Again will is a % increase and even 100% increase of a low number is still a low number.

  24. #24

    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pillager101 View Post
    Again will is a % increase and even 100% increase of a low number is still a low number.
    yep that's a point I always try to make. but if you're doing fine on everything else (such as, you're fine on power, and you don't die), no reason to not go for will if it's a simple X over Y.
    Kraken, Thesungodra

  25. #25
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    Re: "Will" - Will it matter?

    Another thread of interest: Fate --> In Combat Power Regen? (Last up. Feb 2010)

    Of particular interest is the SoM Fate formula, as derived by Tawariel (and observed by Godfather):
    I'd heard that the ICPR from Fate went up in Mirkwood, but a Google search didn't turn up the new formula. So I tested it this morning on several toons and the new formula appears to be:

    30 * Fate^0.5

    Up from 25 * Fate^0.5 in MoM. That's a 20% increase (approximately) at all levels of Fate.
    In terms of ICMR, the formula is still supposed to be a linear 1.5 per, which of course means Fate is good to stack if you like that sort of thing. I'm assuming all of these numbers apply to captains since I don't remember if there were class-specific changes or not.

    Now, it's all well and good to argue which is better between Will and Fate for captains, but it still comes down to both context and playstyle. Some will favor big pools, others ICM/PR, still others the crit aspect. None of those are wrong, really, and all that matters is if a setup works (1) for your playstyle and (2) in the situation.

    If a particular setup (gear+traits) works for your playstyle, and you're doing fine without struggling, then there's little reason to change. It's still important to remember that captains are a hybrid class, though, so refusing to stack any particular stat is as unreasonable as stacking only one.

 

 
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