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  1. #51
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kannos1600 View Post
    My buddy plays on Kujata I think its called. (thankyou updates for allowing me to pick the world this time around!) So I picked that world to play on
    Playin a Hume in an the Elf Starter Area. Now if I could recall what to use with that darn Adventurer's Token. Hmmmm. :P
    Cool. Just thought I'd throw that out in case you didn't have anyone you know still playing. And the Adventurer's Token can be traded to an NPC somewhere (don't ask me who) for like 50g. Probably counts for Sandy fame, too.

    If you're not aware of it, check out FFXIcyclopedia. Great site, with none of the bull**** of Allakhazam.

    Also: Somepage.com is RMT owned now. DO NOT go there.

  2. #52
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    The FF11 Main Site sends me to the site you mentioned. Def helpful when gaming. I really wish they would have a friggin Ring on top of the heads of the quest givers or some kinda icon to make it easyier.

    Ran into a pub at some point and am now giving some kinda plant to a dude. I dont know lol.

    Yah if my buddy wasnt still playing I woulda read your post ahead of time and stalked yah. So thanks for the vote of aid .
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  3. #53
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yosoff View Post
    (ignoring the rest of your post)

    Nobody rolled a hunter two+ years ago wanting to tank. The hunter class is now an unrecognizable abomination of a class compared to its original design. In the current state, for grouping, we're a tier 2 DPS class with little other useful utility.

    The one thing that hunters are hands down the best class for is single target threat generation. We can lock down agro without even trying; and often do so on accident even while the classic tanking classes are trying their best to keep the agro.
    Oh the nostalgy becomes almost unbearable...

    Starts reminding me of Rangers in Everquest (right after Kunark) again! rotflamo.

    Well... not quite that bad, yet, but we seem to be getting there

  4. #54

    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    I think a well played tank can beat us in threat generation, honestly.

  5. #55
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    I think a well played tank can beat us in threat generation, honestly.
    I think it depends on the Hunter's build. It's hard to say since the threat formula is completely hidden.

  6. #56
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Good Tanks are sometimes hard to come by.

    I do an aggro swap in my Turtle Runs now after I took 2 Guards with me at some point. This way no one dies. A kinmate of mine has a grd and he is really good at it. Once he has Aggro its really hard for him to lose it. Heck even my LMs Bear Taunts failed to steal the aggro from him.

    To bad he doesnt do to well in giving up the aggro vs keeping it lol. I did tell the others good luck taking it back when he go it.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  7. #57
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    No offense or anything, but in my opinion it's hunters like this that give the rest of us a bad name. You probably never turn off strength stance do you?

    I don't disagree that hunters CAN maintain aggro, and minstrels can be good enough to keep them alive while doing it, but the entire concept is offensive to me as a guardian and I honestly don't appreciate it. In 3 man instances or something where you have no actual tanking class then this is definitely viable, but anywhere where a guard, champ, or warden is present is just stepping on toes.

  8. #58
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bombadil411 View Post
    is just stepping on toes.
    what, like logging into your hunter only to get a tell "hey, can you log your RK? We're 11/12 for turtle and need DPS"



    I get what you're saying (I have a guard) and agree (guards should tank over hunters) but it's kinda sad I'm using alts to gear my main.
    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
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  9. #59
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    I hate logging in on my Hunter and get asked to log on my Minstrel to heal for something I want to do on my Hunter. Glad not many know I have an RK yet
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  10. #60

    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bombadil411 View Post
    the entire concept is offensive to me as a guardian and I honestly don't appreciate it.
    Then join us in complaining to Turbine that hunters steal agro when only doing half the damage as other classes, that's the part that's offensive, that's the thing that needs to be fixed. Personally, I find it offensive when someone tells me that I should never use Strength Stance except when soloing. A hunter in Endurance Stance is a tier 2 DPS class with no other purpose; in order to fulfill any sort of purpose in a raid we need to be in S:S as much as possible and only switch to S:E or S:P for certain situations.

    When a fight is a DPS race then the hunters (and other classes) need to be going all out DPS; which means hunters probably SHOULD be tanking. Again, take the complaint to Turbine that half the boss fights are DPS races; it's really quite ridiculous and unfair to guardians and wardens.

    Nobody in this thread is saying that a hunter can tank everything that a guardian can tank, or that guardians aren't needed in groups. We're saying that there are single-target fights where a hunter can be the tank and sometimes is the preferred tank.

    Several bosses are simply easier to tank with hunters. When hunters tank the handcuffs come off; DPS classes can do full DPS, healing classes can do full healing, guardians can go OP and whack on something for once - stuff dies faster that way.
    "For them to perceive the advantage of defeating the enemy, they must also have their rewards." ~Sun Tzu

  11. #61

    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yosoff View Post
    Nobody in this thread is saying that a hunter can tank everything that a guardian can tank, or that guardians aren't needed in groups. We're saying that there are single-target fights where a hunter can be the tank and sometimes is the preferred tank.

    Several bosses are simply easier to tank with hunters. When hunters tank the handcuffs come off; DPS classes can do full DPS, healing classes can do full healing, guardians can go OP and whack on something for once - stuff dies faster that way.
    That's a pretty big problem-statement for the game in group combat dynamics.

    And yes, needs fixing in a big way.

    From another poster, probably more true than not:

    You guys are all missing the point. This has little to do with hunters and everything to do with instances that don't hit hard enough to *require* Guardian tanks. Champs (in or out of fervor), Captains, Burgs, Wardens, or OP Guards can all tank as well or better than Hunters.

    Out of the 9 classes, 6 can tank a significant portion of endgame content. This isn't special to the Hunter class.
    EDIT: Except for the last sentence in the first paragraph to large degree. The point in this thread, as well as matching posts on the other end of the scale in say the Warden forums, is that Hunters have superlative "mob control" ability (high-threat). That means in far too many instances Hunters in fact Tank BETTER than some other Tank classes given their high level of immediate mob influence/control and the effortless ability to sustain that. Since a healer is required regardless, if a healer can keep a Hunter up just fine during a boss fight, the need for the Tank has, literally, just evaporated. The Tank's real-time game-play dynamics just switched to doing nothing more than whacking on the back of the mob for no other reason than fighting against a team-mate . . . for no reason. Why bother? The Hunter wouldn't be dying, because (in far too many instances) the healer can keep them up fine as others have expounded on in multiple examples, and the mob/boss dies faster. DPS Races are concluded easier. It would be different if there was real danger for the DPS class, because then the Tank would still have an applicable role: Get that aggro, right now, cause my (needed) DPS fellow is about to DIE! In that scenario the role of the Tank is still applicable and not nullified/trampled on by a DPS class. Players have to work together, smart, not just plow forward against each other.
    Last edited by Silverbranch; Sep 12 2009 at 07:57 PM.

  12. #62
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    I dont care what anyone says.

    I can tank anything in the game.

    Nothing can survive my patented HADUKEN!
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  13. #63
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    A well-played WDN can hold threat off of a STR-stance HNT, but it won't matter in a short fight since the Warden won't have time to get it. For the turtle though, if I make the mistake of going balls-to-the-wall threat gen, I will die, because nobody is pulling it off me except through forced taunts.

    That said, I agree that the Hunter class builds crazy threat. Wonder what SoM might bring?

  14. #64
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asilonde View Post
    A well-played WDN can hold threat off of a STR-stance HNT, but it won't matter in a short fight since the Warden won't have time to get it. For the turtle though, if I make the mistake of going balls-to-the-wall threat gen, I will die, because nobody is pulling it off me except through forced taunts.

    That said, I agree that the Hunter class builds crazy threat. Wonder what SoM might bring?
    That and a champ can pull off the agro from a hunter with its agro transfering skill and then they can pass it on to the tank. What mystifies me is people always go off on hunters when there are other members of the fellowship there who can mitigate it. Hunters actually should be able to go all out on dps (of course i mean within reason) and not have to worry about getting any agro. If you have a burg in the group they can us provoke to push agro on the main tank, a champ can grab extra agro from the hunter and then transfer it to the guard or warden. A warden and a guard have skills that allow them to leech agro from the other members of the fellowship. Honestly the dps classes in a fellowship or a raid should be able to push the abilities of their class. If they have to hold back on dps just to keep from getting agro i think that shows more the inability of the rest of the group to play their class than the inability of the hunter.

    I am not saying to hunters to go out there in strength stance and start firing penetrating shots right away without letting the guard take the target first but if every person in the group takes full advantage of their given skills and the hunter is targeting the main target of the guard and not some outside add, then even in strength stance a hunter should not actually pull off the agro. If he does, I think thats an indightment against the rest of the fellowship than it is against him.
    Freeps:[color=red]Kallen|Lore-Master (MAIN)[/color],[color=grey] Ryuuroden|Hunter[/color], [color=blue]Hideyoshi|Champion[/color], [color=orange]Linalee|Captain[/color], [color=green]Arvernus|Warden[/color], [color=purple]Precia|Rune Keeper[/color], [color=yellow]Qfeuille|Burglar[/color], [color=red]Ascoeur|Minstrel[/color]
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  15. #65
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    If you want to bring other classes into this then Ill bite onto the line a little bit.

    Both the Warden and the Guardian are excellent tanks if the player is traited properly and knows what they are doing with the skills they have. My one kinmate is a pretty badass Guardian. I quote this from my one turtle run with him as my tank:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pariah
    Okay were going to try to do an agro swap between the Guardian and one of the champs. We will start with out Champ so other champs give aggro to him before you go buck crazy on the BBEG. After your DoT hits 2k let me know and we will swap you to the Guardian where you Champs will give your aggro to him.
    We will try to get the aggro back onto our highest Morale Champ after the DoT hits 2k on our Grd but good luck on that. If we do we do. If not he will be taking a dirt nap with baby jesus and we can use his head as a hood ornament after the battle.
    Needless to say if he wants the aggro he is going to get it. It took him dying to lose it. Now thats a pretty good tank if you ask me especially if all the other Champs were dumping and stealing aggro from him.

    Not to say that having the aggro is best bet but then again. Hrm.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  16. #66

    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuuroden View Post
    That and a champ can pull off the agro from a hunter with its agro transfering skill and then they can pass it on to the tank. What mystifies me is people always go off on hunters when there are other members of the fellowship there who can mitigate it.
    Agree with the idea everyone in the fellow should be using all their skills in support of their Fellows. That's why they are there.

    Hunters actually should be able to go all out on dps (of course i mean within reason) and not have to worry about getting any agro.
    Disagree with the statement because it contradicts itself. "of course I mean within reason" means, by definition, that DPS can't go "all out", that there are issues of judgement, timing, restraint, and control allowing a DPSr to do DPS "within reason". For that fight, that situation, those set of conditions and fellow makup.

    Any DPS class should ALWAYS be worried about aggro/threat management. It is a core game-play skill for any DPS class illustrating whether they do it well or poorly.

    You don't always have a choice in party makeup, you don't always have control over how someone else is Traited, etc. This means if you don't have the situational awareness to judge these things, you'll always be the problem child in the Fellow forcing others to work extra hard to compensate for you, not the other way around.

    If you have a burg in the group they can us provoke to push agro on the main tank, a champ can grab extra agro from the hunter and then transfer it to the guard or warden.
    Addressed above.

    A warden and a guard have skills that allow them to leech agro from the other members of the fellowship.
    Yes we do (speaking for Wardens, I don't play a Guard). But that statement, all by itself, doesn't convey how much threat is leeched. It very well may be much less than you've assumed.

    Honestly the dps classes in a fellowship or a raid should be able to push the abilities of their class. If they have to hold back on dps just to keep from getting agro i think that shows more the inability of the rest of the group to play their class than the inability of the hunter.
    Honestly, the Tanking classes in a fellowship or raid should be able to push the abilities of their class. If they have to hold back on other abilities because they are in constant damage control spamming force taunts and high threat attacks trying to counter undisciplined play by DPS classes (e.g. say a needed Interrupt, self heal, group heal, etc.), that shows more the inability of the DPS class to play their class than the inability of the Tank.

    Heh-heh. At the risk of being flip, see what I did there?

    In other words: Any class, DPS or otherwise, can FORCE team-mates to overwork in to compensate for undisciplined game-play by someone.

    On the one hand I agree with you: DPS kills. You want to maximize DPS, particularly in fights designed to be DPS races. However, what I've experienced the vast majority of the time is that DPS just wants to spam the attack buttons, be-danged to anyone else the clean-up to the non-DPS peons. That's why I think Turbine should take to heart a suggestion I've seen from others: Instance mobs should nail non-tank classes (I'd say ranged DPS specifically) WAY faster than what we see currently. Necessity often is the catalyst for the changing of habits.

    Team play, coordination, skill, interaction. Knowing when to hold off is easily as much an attribute of a skilled player as pew-pew. Baseline requirements of a skilled DPSr include aggro management independent of their fellows.

    I am not saying to hunters to go out there in strength stance and start firing penetrating shots right away without letting the guard take the target first . . .
    Agreed.

    . . . but if every person in the group takes full advantage of their given skills and the hunter is targeting the main target of the guard and not some outside add, then even in strength stance a hunter should not actually pull off the agro. If he does, I think thats an indightment against the rest of the fellowship than it is against him.
    I understand the spirit of what you meant, but disagree with the statement as a declared "rule of thumb".

    I don't agree with the idea it's everyone elses responsibility to manage your aggro.

    Simply saying "even in Str Stance a Hunter should not actually pull off the aggro" is a meaningless statement. It doesn't address when you might go into Str Stance (say 1/2 way through the fight instead of .5 seconds after the Tank pulls), it means you aren't thinking about your group makeup or dynamics, each time. You aren't looking, evaluating, adjusting, adapting to the situational needs. All you want is a "rule" that says "I as DPS get to go all out, so make it happen everyone (else)". Because of course a Hunter in Str Stance may pull the aggro, which destabilizes the fight, might destabilize your Tanks, might get a Healer killed or cause them at the least to burn extra power trying to heal multiple players instead of just (hopefully) the Tank.

    Bottom Line: Though there is an expectation a Tank should be doing their job reasonably as well, your DPS and Aggro is still yours to manage as a point of attention and skilled awareness. That's the price you pay for the power.

  17. #67

    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    All this just reaffirms the basic problem about hunters that we were disgussing in The Stance Thread.

    Hunters are designed wrong for groups. They are designed to be at odds with their primary function when in groups.

    Other classes, when in groups, are designed to maximize their primary function. In order to do this, they trade off their independence. They become more dependent on their fellows. When solo, they generally decrease their primary efficacy in return for attributes that help them solo.

    Example: Champions, when in groups fullfilling their primary role can deliver maximum DPS in Fervor stance. But in so doing, they are have no avoidance and thus are dependent on the Tank and CC classes (to keep the mob(s) off of them) and the Healer classes for healing. Conversely, when solo, they (at least by design) run in ardor, where they don't put out as much DPS, but have better defenses.

    Example: RKs - when in groups can go full-out DPS mode. But they are fragile and thus dependent on the tank, CC & healing classes to stay alive. When solo, they throttle the attunement a bit to allow for some self healing.

    Example: Guards, when in a group, they go max on taunts & defense, controlling the mob being the primary purpose. They are dependent on the group for healing (to keep themselves alive) and DPS (to actually kill the mob). But when solo, they run in OverPower, generating much more DPS, but with decreased defense and taunting abilities.

    Example: Minstrels, when in a group, can go max Healing, depending on the group for tanking, CC & DPS. But when solo, run in War Speech, where their healing skills are decreased, but they have more DPS.

    And so on. The point is, other classes are designed so that in return for maximizing their primary purpose in groups, they become more dependent on groups. Conversely, when solo, their primary function is decreased in return for more solo survival skills.

    And then there are Hunters.

    Hunters are completely broken in this regard. If we try to use our maximum DPS mode, we don't give up survivability, we instead generate outrageous aggro and run out of power. If we use our nominal 'group' stance (Endurance) we generate piss-poor DPS.

    So if a Hunter maximizes his primary function (ranged DPS) he is actually disruptive to the group.

    Unlike other classes, a Hunter has to decrease his primary purpose in groups, relative to what he does when solo!

    Turbine needs to change this.

    Hunters should be able to do their most DPS when in their 'group' mode. But, when in that mode, they should, as some in this thread of alluded, be completely vulnerable and dependent on the group to stay alive.

    Instead of generating ridiculous amounts of aggro (and burning ridiculous amounts of power) in this mode, Hunters (like Champions) should instead simply be incapable of dodging. Hunter avoidance should be nerfed into oblivion. It makes sense too. With the benefit of a 'front line' of Tanks & CC to keep the mobs off the archers, the archers should be completely focused on deadly, accurate shots, not dodging. They could even take vulnerability/mitigation debuffs when in this mode as well. As others in this thread have said, if the boss mob takes a swipe at a squishy Hunter, they should die. But at the same time, a Hunter should not be generating excess aggro beyond that merited by his DPS output.

    And such a max DPS mode would, obviously, be useless for solo work because without avoidance, a Hunter gets quickly chewed up like dog treats.

    Until Turbine addresses this fundamental design flaw in the Hunter class, we will be constantly struggling with fulfilling our role.

  18. #68
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    wait what?
    Hunters are not the kings of singe target DPS anymore??

    (im a noob at the game.. just started and im lvl 39.. Some advice would be good for me about builds and such (: ..)

  19. #69
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Not to sound mean about this but for all intents and purposes newer Hunters wont see the difference in Hunter DPS that we are talking about. Which may as well be a good thing.

    Essentially in a story short. Hunters used to be Top Tier DPS on Single Targets. We fight one thing and could dish it out like no other. Now were 2nd best to possible 3rd best.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  20. #70
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Quote Originally Posted by serbesa View Post
    wait what?
    Hunters are not the kings of singe target DPS anymore??
    Not really, no. Given equal gear/build, player skill, and party support, hunters are equal to several other classes (solo play) or significantly behind them (endgame group play). Peruse this thread for more detailed documentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by serbesa View Post
    Some advice would be good for me about builds and such...
    • The [trait]Strong Draw[/trait] + [trait]Deadly Precision[/trait] trait combo is your best friend.
    • Never slot more than 3-deep into the Bowmaster line. Ever.
    • [trait]Combat Traps[/trait] is the bomb.
    • At 39, get a friend (or several) and go to Tal Bruinen in the Trollshaws. Get the whole Garb of the Woods set and Tongannel's Joy from the quests there. You can thank me later.
    • Never, ever use a fast bow. Ever. Note: This may change with the new expansion, but I seriously doubt it.

  21. #71
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbranch View Post
    That's a pretty big problem-statement for the game in group combat dynamics.

    And yes, needs fixing in a big way.

    From another poster, probably more true than not:



    EDIT: Except for the last sentence in the first paragraph to large degree. The point in this thread, as well as matching posts on the other end of the scale in say the Warden forums, is that Hunters have superlative "mob control" ability (high-threat). That means in far too many instances Hunters in fact Tank BETTER than some other Tank classes given their high level of immediate mob influence/control and the effortless ability to sustain that. Since a healer is required regardless, if a healer can keep a Hunter up just fine during a boss fight, the need for the Tank has, literally, just evaporated. The Tank's real-time game-play dynamics just switched to doing nothing more than whacking on the back of the mob for no other reason than fighting against a team-mate . . . for no reason. Why bother? The Hunter wouldn't be dying, because (in far too many instances) the healer can keep them up fine as others have expounded on in multiple examples, and the mob/boss dies faster. DPS Races are concluded easier. It would be different if there was real danger for the DPS class, because then the Tank would still have an applicable role: Get that aggro, right now, cause my (needed) DPS fellow is about to DIE! In that scenario the role of the Tank is still applicable and not nullified/trampled on by a DPS class. Players have to work together, smart, not just plow forward against each other.
    If a healer is good enough to heal fervour tanking, they can heal a hunter tanking. It's actually that simple, especially if you're in a fight where the boss is single target damaging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuuroden View Post
    That and a champ can pull off the agro from a hunter with its agro transfering skill and then they can pass it on to the tank. What mystifies me is people always go off on hunters when there are other members of the fellowship there who can mitigate it. Hunters actually should be able to go all out on dps (of course i mean within reason) and not have to worry about getting any agro. If you have a burg in the group they can us provoke to push agro on the main tank, a champ can grab extra agro from the hunter and then transfer it to the guard or warden. A warden and a guard have skills that allow them to leech agro from the other members of the fellowship. Honestly the dps classes in a fellowship or a raid should be able to push the abilities of their class. If they have to hold back on dps just to keep from getting agro i think that shows more the inability of the rest of the group to play their class than the inability of the hunter.

    I am not saying to hunters to go out there in strength stance and start firing penetrating shots right away without letting the guard take the target first but if every person in the group takes full advantage of their given skills and the hunter is targeting the main target of the guard and not some outside add, then even in strength stance a hunter should not actually pull off the agro. If he does, I think thats an indightment against the rest of the fellowship than it is against him.
    Outside of the BO, there's no fight in DN where I'm ever out of strength stance for any amount of time. Same with the watcher, turtle, or anything else in the game. And I NEVER draw aggro. Simply put, if your group members know what they're doing you CAN and SHOULD go all out on damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbranch View Post
    Agree with the idea everyone in the fellow should be using all their skills in support of their Fellows. That's why they are there.

    Disagree with the statement because it contradicts itself. "of course I mean within reason" means, by definition, that DPS can't go "all out", that there are issues of judgement, timing, restraint, and control allowing a DPSr to do DPS "within reason". For that fight, that situation, those set of conditions and fellow makup.

    Any DPS class should ALWAYS be worried about aggro/threat management. It is a core game-play skill for any DPS class illustrating whether they do it well or poorly.

    You don't always have a choice in party makeup, you don't always have control over how someone else is Traited, etc. This means if you don't have the situational awareness to judge these things, you'll always be the problem child in the Fellow forcing others to work extra hard to compensate for you, not the other way around.

    ....

    Yes we do (speaking for Wardens, I don't play a Guard). But that statement, all by itself, doesn't convey how much threat is leeched. It very well may be much less than you've assumed.

    Honestly, the Tanking classes in a fellowship or raid should be able to push the abilities of their class. If they have to hold back on other abilities because they are in constant damage control spamming force taunts and high threat attacks trying to counter undisciplined play by DPS classes (e.g. say a needed Interrupt, self heal, group heal, etc.), that shows more the inability of the DPS class to play their class than the inability of the Tank.

    ...

    In other words: Any class, DPS or otherwise, can FORCE team-mates to overwork in to compensate for undisciplined game-play by someone.

    On the one hand I agree with you: DPS kills. You want to maximize DPS, particularly in fights designed to be DPS races. However, what I've experienced the vast majority of the time is that DPS just wants to spam the attack buttons, be-danged to anyone else the clean-up to the non-DPS peons. That's why I think Turbine should take to heart a suggestion I've seen from others: Instance mobs should nail non-tank classes (I'd say ranged DPS specifically) WAY faster than what we see currently. Necessity often is the catalyst for the changing of habits.

    Team play, coordination, skill, interaction. Knowing when to hold off is easily as much an attribute of a skilled player as pew-pew. Baseline requirements of a skilled DPSr include aggro management independent of their fellows.

    I don't agree with the idea it's everyone elses responsibility to manage your aggro.

    Simply saying "even in Str Stance a Hunter should not actually pull off the aggro" is a meaningless statement. It doesn't address when you might go into Str Stance (say 1/2 way through the fight instead of .5 seconds after the Tank pulls), it means you aren't thinking about your group makeup or dynamics, each time. You aren't looking, evaluating, adjusting, adapting to the situational needs. All you want is a "rule" that says "I as DPS get to go all out, so make it happen everyone (else)". Because of course a Hunter in Str Stance may pull the aggro, which destabilizes the fight, might destabilize your Tanks, might get a Healer killed or cause them at the least to burn extra power trying to heal multiple players instead of just (hopefully) the Tank.

    Bottom Line: Though there is an expectation a Tank should be doing their job reasonably as well, your DPS and Aggro is still yours to manage as a point of attention and skilled awareness. That's the price you pay for the power.
    While my threat is mine to manage, it should NEVER be higher than a tank's IF people know what they're doing. Of course, most people don't, so when you're with a PUG then watch your aggro.

    Also, there's a logical contradiction when you say essentially that tanks must "limit themselves" by using force taunts and high threat attacks so that they can't "use their other abilities", while declaring that DPS class need to limit themselves by not using their abilities so that tanks can. In reality, both must limit their choice of things to do for the benefit of the group depending on circumstances. Either works, the DPS holding back or the tank pushing aggro management skills. TBH, it really depends on just how good your tank is as to which you should do.

    Now, in a PUG would I hold back? Of course, until I could figure out if the tank and everyone else has a clue. In my regular raid crew? Nope; don't need to. I can't pull aggro off any of the people we have tank because WHOEVER that is will have insane threat amounts because everyone is doing threat dumps on them. That's the point, it depends on the actual group as to what you need to do.

  22. #72

    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Quote Originally Posted by nirsul View Post
    While my threat is mine to manage,

    Now, in a PUG would I hold back? Of course. . .
    Now you are getting it!

    You should always be aware of your threat, and be managing it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbranch
    In other words: Any class, DPS or otherwise, can FORCE team-mates to overwork in to compensate for undisciplined game-play by someone.
    Seems like we are on the same page. What I presented had no inherent contradiction, it pointed out the problem is two sided, not one. Poor play by Tanks can limit DPS application by DPS, and poor play by DPS can limit Tank ability in a fight as they fight to compensate.

    Teamwork, and the mindset behind it!
    Last edited by Silverbranch; Sep 16 2009 at 11:47 AM.

  23. #73

    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Consider for a moment a group that knows what they're doing and all that goes into managing agro and the cost that it has on DPS.

    Champs: Ebbing Ire onto the tank, perhaps Rising Ire off a healer or hunter. Those skills cost 4 PIPs each plus the time to switch targets and execute the skill. A conservative estimate would be 1000 points of damage in opportunity cost every time each champ uses an Ire skill.

    Burgs: Using Provoke on and off throughout the fight. Burgs can do considerable damage and this cost should not be written off lightly.

    Guardian: Huge loss in DPS if not in Overpower. If the Guard can tank in Overpower they still lose the stagger positional damage from never being behind the boss as well as DPS every time they use a taunt.

    Hunters: Huge loss in DPS running S:E, plus additional DPS loss as they intentionally hold back throughout the fight. This can be offset somewhat as the Guard builds threat and they can switch to S:S without much concern.


    Now consider the same group with the hunter doing the tanking. There would be zero lost DPS due to opportunity costs. Champs, Burgs and Guards can all do their maximum DPS and nobody even has to give agro management a 2nd thought. How is this not the most efficient way for single-target fights? Why shouldn't the most efficient way be the preferred way or at least a widely accepted way?

    A good group that knows what it's doing with everyone managing their agro as well as assisting the tank with agro can ensure that the Guard stays at the top of the agro table. But in so doing, they haven't gained anything. The group as a whole is likely doing considerably less total DPS than it would with a hunter tanking.
    "For them to perceive the advantage of defeating the enemy, they must also have their rewards." ~Sun Tzu

  24. #74

    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    How often do we feel Yosoff's statement is true, versus those times it's not possible?

    What he's talking about are the inevitable realities of getting stuff done, not the politically correct theorizing that says "but we need to protect everyone's role! Everyone should have a part to play!"

    Generally speaking what he's described has been my experience. That Hunters will pull aggro by trying to be the biggest killer-diller in the group. And if they pull aggro, no biggy, healers can keep them up keep blasting away and take over Tanking.

    Exceptions? Sure. But what I'm interested is the general concencus across aggregate game-play, levels 10 - 60?
    Last edited by Silverbranch; Sep 16 2009 at 03:29 PM. Reason: Spelling corrections

  25. #75
    Join Date
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    Re: Hunters - The new tanking class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yosoff View Post
    Consider for a moment a group that knows what they're doing and all that goes into managing agro and the cost that it has on DPS.

    Champs: Ebbing Ire onto the tank, perhaps Rising Ire off a healer or hunter. Those skills cost 4 PIPs each plus the time to switch targets and execute the skill. A conservative estimate would be 1000 points of damage in opportunity cost every time each champ uses an Ire skill.

    Burgs: Using Provoke on and off throughout the fight. Burgs can do considerable damage and this cost should not be written off lightly.

    Guardian: Huge loss in DPS if not in Overpower. If the Guard can tank in Overpower they still lose the stagger positional damage from never being behind the boss as well as DPS every time they use a taunt.

    Hunters: Huge loss in DPS running S:E, plus additional DPS loss as they intentionally hold back throughout the fight. This can be offset somewhat as the Guard builds threat and they can switch to S:S without much concern.


    Now consider the same group with the hunter doing the tanking. There would be zero lost DPS due to opportunity costs. Champs, Burgs and Guards can all do their maximum DPS and nobody even has to give agro management a 2nd thought. How is this not the most efficient way for single-target fights? Why shouldn't the most efficient way be the preferred way or at least a widely accepted way?

    A good group that knows what it's doing with everyone managing their agro as well as assisting the tank with agro can ensure that the Guard stays at the top of the agro table. But in so doing, they haven't gained anything. The group as a whole is likely doing considerably less total DPS than it would with a hunter tanking.
    Absolutely correct. The goal is to kill the mob not drag fights out for the sake of managing aggro. Aggro managment can be a tool to killing the mob when the system is working, but when threat is way out of whack you shouldn't be a slave to the mindset of how things are supposed to be done. Short of trying to challenge oneself, the most efficient way should always be preferable.

 

 
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