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  1. #76

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FolklegendRedux View Post
    Where does Precision fall in this? You're right about the threat generated being out of proportion to the damage dealt relative to other classes. But unless all three stances do the same DPS, people are always going to use the highest DPS stance as much as possible which is why most people are sitting in Strength stance until they have to drop to Endurance for threat/power management. We're using one and a half stances.
    That's a good question - considering that the hunter is pretty much a one-trick pony. Their entire existence depends on doing DPS. Champs can do DPS or Tank, RKs can do DPS or Heal, and hunters can do...well, they're supposed to do just Ranged DPS.

    As far as I can figure - no matter how you slice it, the only way even the concept of a precision stance would have a purpose, is if there were content/encounters designed where precision actually trumped raw DPS. One example would be a boss that has a very high evade rating where miss chance reduction would be necessary. Beyond that, I can't see a reason why a hunter would even need 3 stances.
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  2. #77

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    That's a good question - considering that the hunter is pretty much a one-trick pony. Their entire existence depends on doing DPS. Champs can do DPS or Tank, RKs can do DPS or Heal, and hunters can do...well, they're supposed to do just Ranged DPS.

    As far as I can figure - no matter how you slice it, the only way even the concept of a precision stance would have a purpose, is if there were content/encounters designed where precision actually trumped raw DPS. One example would be a boss that has a very high evade rating where miss chance reduction would be necessary. Beyond that, I can't see a reason why a hunter would even need 3 stances.
    That's definitely one of the problems we have right now. Precision was somewhat more useful before you reach level cap, because you were quite often fighting higher level mobs. But otherwise, it's use has been reduced to very marginal situations.

    To return to the original point though - which is how to regain our ability to deliver tier 1 ranged DPS in group fights, we need Turbine to acknowledge and redress the fundamental design flaw with Hunters.

    The way that other classes work is that, when in their 'group mode' they are MORE effective in their primary role - whether that is aggro control, healing or DPS - and when they are in their 'solo mode' they are less effective at their primary role, but more survivable.

    Hunters need to work the same way. We should give up some of our survivability when in group mode, not our DPS.
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  3. #78

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WhifOfDespair View Post
    That's definitely one of the problems we have right now. Precision was somewhat more useful before you reach level cap, because you were quite often fighting higher level mobs. But otherwise, it's use has been reduced to very marginal situations.

    To return to the original point though - which is how to regain our ability to deliver tier 1 ranged DPS in group fights, we need Turbine to acknowledge and redress the fundamental design flaw with Hunters.

    The way that other classes work is that, when in their 'group mode' they are MORE effective in their primary role - whether that is aggro control, healing or DPS - and when they are in their 'solo mode' they are less effective at their primary role, but more survivable.

    Hunters need to work the same way. We should give up some of our survivability when in group mode, not our DPS.
    Yes, Hunters should be able to do their max DPS in a group situation, there's no question about that. However, you are missing one major point when it comes to comparing the hunter to other classes. First off Hunters are pretty much "instant on" type of DPS. Champs have to build Fervour, RKs have to attune, while Hunters can fire off their two most damaging skills immediately (ISB and HS) and PS almost immediately. Second of all, while Champs are constantly in harms way - where the DPS in lieu of less survivability really comes into play - offering up the hunter's survivability for DPS isn't much of a deal

    Yet Hunters do have one defensive skill that can make them very survivable - their parrying ability. Perhaps part of this new endurance stance (-40% induction, -50% traited) would also come with a significant parry rating penalty - under the concept that the Hunter is so busy unleashing arrows that they don't have the ability to do much else. The result would be equal or greater DPS over time, compared to Strength Stance, and would actually make the Hunter suffer greatly while soloing in endurance. First off because of the parry rating penalty, and second because it doesn't provide for much burst damage against lower health normal mobs. That would mean of course that these normal mobs would reach the hunter quicker (no QS Slow) with more health, and the hunter would end up taking more damage.

    As for precision....again, I can't see where it would fit in - unless it was under specific situations that required it. Situations that currently don't exist - other than as you mentioned, fighting higher level mobs.
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  4. #79
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    I'm sorry but I'm almost always in Precision Stance unless I don't have to worry about power consumption when running my 5 Bowmaster 2 Huntsman build. While doing this, I've even noticed that I'm out DPSing my fellow hunters that sit in Strength Stance all the time. How is this possible?

    You take a stance which decreases the possibility that your enemies will avoid your shots. While in Precision Stance, your Quick Shot has an increased chance to score Critical Hits. With my Quick Shot doing that and it not being affected by the 15% cap I'm doing that extra damage there, AND...

    Enduring Precision Your focus increases by 1 every 10 seconds while you are in a Precision Stance.
    That trait combined with Strong Draw for my 2 Huntsman allow me to use my focus skills more often, and the one with the shortest cooldown for a lower cost. In the longer boss fights I find this to be highly rewarding.

    If you add to that a bow with both Focus and non-Focus legacies (decreased power cost, increased crit damage multiplier, etc), you have quite a combo without the threat increase of strength stance. The only way I am 100% able to establish aggro at that point is by starting off a fight with Improved Swift Shot followed up by my Penetrating Shot.
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  5. #80

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    As far as I can figure - no matter how you slice it, the only way even the concept of a precision stance would have a purpose, is if there were content/encounters designed where precision actually trumped raw DPS. One example would be a boss that has a very high evade rating where miss chance reduction would be necessary. Beyond that, I can't see a reason why a hunter would even need 3 stances.
    I use precision on the Blind One phase 3. Merc shot absolutely has to hit when it's my turn in the rotation to get those corruptions off. It's a very limited use, but when I'm in there I'm glad that precision stance exists.
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  6. #81

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    As for precision....again, I can't see where it would fit in - unless it was under specific situations that required it. Situations that currently don't exist - other than as you mentioned, fighting higher level mobs.
    1. When you're fighting higher level mobs you tend to miss.
    2. When you're suffering a level penalty due to dread/gloom you tend to miss.
    3. When #1 and #2 are put together you miss more.
    4. When Limfarim are around you're stuck with a huge accuracy penalty.
    5. When certain mobs throw an accuracy debuff on you (toads, some goblins, lizards are examples) you get a nasty accuracy debuff.
    6. When certain mobs put up an evade buff they're very hard to hit without S:P

    The stance needs some tweaks (all of them do imo) but it's not without it's uses.
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  7. #82
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    wall of text, cited simply to give a reference point
    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    second wall of text, again serving as a reference point
    in addition to my above ideas, these would be the brainstorming for class traits and set bonuses that would round out the total idea (i woulda posted the following earlier, but been distracted by things like work, and bounty quests, and such)

    these changes would be based on the following:
    ~bowmaster is the line that allows for more damage at expense of power and survivabilty, would also be regardless of stance...
    ~huntsman is the line that provides for survivabilty through healing and reduced induction times (essentially increased attack speed)
    ~trapper of foes is the line that provides for crowd control through reduced threat and snares, traps, fears

    also taking into consideration that increased survivability should be at the expense of increased damage, and vice versa( considering that huntsman has become the most survivable AND the most damaging trait line)

    ~traits:

    combine strong draw and arrow storm traits into one, combine true shot and hail of arrows into one trait (+3600 crit rat, +25% crit multiplier) (both would be BoWmanster) to admit, i feel this would prolly be OP, but i was tryin to make room for other traits that would make more sense in the trait lines, EDIT: or maybe combine strong draw + true shot, and then combine arrow storm and hail of arrows)

    heart of the bard (bowmaster)

    low cut (ToF) would increase slow duration, or number of targets, or maybe both?

    barbed arrow bleed pulses (would become huntsman)

    hightened senses (should be huntsman)

    Bard's Warning (ToF) enables bard's arrow to fear any mob, not just evil mobs

    ~trait set bonuses

    improved agile rejoinder (huntsman 2/5 bonus) gives perma +500 heal to agile rejoinder) the legacy would then have to become a +x% heal for improved agile rejoinder

    the other huntsman set bonuses would ramain the same
    but add barbed arrow 3x bleed damage at 4/5

    (Fleet stance IMO should not cost 1 focus per second, but instead give 50% chance to evade, costing 2 focus when successfully evading, costing 1 focus if legendary, plus 10% attack speed boost)

    bowmaster set bonuses... revert them to pre book 7, but also add a +15% bow critical mutiplier at 4/5, and barbed arrow nuke chance at 4/5

    2/5 +5% bow crit muliplier,+5% bow damage, power costs
    3/5 +5% bow crit mult, +10% bow damage, and power costs
    4/5 +15% bow crit mult, +15% bow damage, and power, barbed arrow bleed gives a 20% chance (one time) 1k nuke
    (a true bowmaster should be able to do more damage without generating the extra threat, after all the extra damage already generates extra threat from the damage itself, don't need to DOUBLE the amount of extra threat for the increased damage)

    ToF

    change 4/5 bonus to: barbed arrow roots with longer coodown, -30%trap skill cooldowns, -15% ranged damage

    i also propose a new legendary skill: Bard's Attack (this could be a level 70 skill) that would req 9 focus, (at level 60) cost 200 power, and do ranged damage plus 900 (i was considering suggesting this for a 6/6 or 7/6 bowmaster req, but i couldn't think of new legendaries for the other trait lines)
    Last edited by Forgotten_Legend; Aug 29 2009 at 04:46 PM.
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  8. #83

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maeshani View Post
    I'm sorry but I'm almost always in Precision Stance unless I don't have to worry about power consumption when running my 5 Bowmaster 2 Huntsman build. While doing this, I've even noticed that I'm out DPSing my fellow hunters that sit in Strength Stance all the time. How is this possible?

    You take a stance which decreases the possibility that your enemies will avoid your shots. While in Precision Stance, your Quick Shot has an increased chance to score Critical Hits. With my Quick Shot doing that and it not being affected by the 15% cap I'm doing that extra damage there, AND...

    Enduring Precision Your focus increases by 1 every 10 seconds while you are in a Precision Stance.
    That trait combined with Strong Draw for my 2 Huntsman allow me to use my focus skills more often, and the one with the shortest cooldown for a lower cost. In the longer boss fights I find this to be highly rewarding.

    If you add to that a bow with both Focus and non-Focus legacies (decreased power cost, increased crit damage multiplier, etc), you have quite a combo without the threat increase of strength stance. The only way I am 100% able to establish aggro at that point is by starting off a fight with Improved Swift Shot followed up by my Penetrating Shot.
    What makes you think the QS crit rating isn't affected by the cap? I haven't seen ANYTHING Hunter related that isn't in the form of +Rating and thus subject to the cap.
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  9. #84
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    I'm at the 15% cap and I crit noticeably more often when in Precision stance with it than Strength with the build i mentioned. Just something I've personally noticed. Whether or not it truly is supposed to or does function that way is beyond me. But yeah, just an experience thing of playing my hunter. I'd like to see hard evidence on that myself to see if what I've been experiencing is in fact true or just some random oddness.
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  10. #85

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Well at any rate, I think precision is major suck. The only time I might use it is in raids to conserve power vs higher level opponents. I've had a falling out with precision stance ever since they nerfed the trait for it and made it tick an extra focus pip every 10s...
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  11. #86

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by huntermaniac View Post
    I like your idea on the stances excluding the fact that you're bringing S:Precision up way too much. If it gets bumped up as much as you want, Turbine will have to make it pretty close to fervour - no BPE, and -30% incoming healing.
    they only added the -30% healing because people were using it to tank.. hunters won't be tanking so theres no point.

    good op.

    instead of adding base damage to precision, give it a big +% (something like 25 - 30) critical chance. this would fit in with the precision 'theme' of being extra accurate and having a high chance to crit with quick shot.

    and if that happened, they could make a legacy on ranged weaps. for +% precision crit chance or maybe a small +% base damage for precision.
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  12. #87

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeakarobinhood View Post
    they only added the -30% healing because people were using it to tank.. hunters won't be tanking so theres no point.

    good op.

    instead of adding base damage to precision, give it a big +% (something like 25 - 30) critical chance. this would fit in with the precision 'theme' of being extra accurate and having a high chance to crit with quick shot.
    That would work. As I said, it doesn't really matter how the increase in dmg is implemented, just that it happens.

    Another alternative to modifying S:Precision outright would be to add an additional toggle skill or trait that 'modifies' the current Precision to have these qualities (+dps, no defenses, slow ramp up of the dmg buff). That would leave the current Precision alone for those who do use it solo now.

    If it were implemented as a trait of additional toggle skill, then I would want them to be attainable at modest levels, not end-game.

    As to whether something like the -30% healing would be required, I don't think we'd need that either. This stance wouldn't, as I originally described, generate as much threat as S:Strength, despite the increased dmg. Combined with the lack of evade/parry and no heavy armour, make it pretty useless for tanking. Thus for those times when Hunters DO need to 'tank' (such as in a duo with a Minstrel / LM / RK ) we are more likely to go with S:Strength instead, just like now.
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  13. #88
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk View Post
    Well at any rate, I think precision is major suck. The only time I might use it is in raids to conserve power vs higher level opponents. I've had a falling out with precision stance ever since they nerfed the trait for it and made it tick an extra focus pip every 10s...
    what did the trait used to be? (even though i'm a founder, i wasn't playing my hunter much the first 8 months, so i really don't remember)
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  14. #89
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Like Maeshani I'm also using precision stance with Enduring Precision slotted. I used to use that trait all the time pre moria and the large number of focus shots is really nice. I'm certainly not having any problems solo'ing in this stance.
    Would need to CStat it to know if my dps is +/- but I haven't noticed a drop, and the lower power costs are great.

    Can't say I like the idea of endurance stance being -induction time. I'd rather see it -induction cool down so we can get off more ISB/BA per minute. I've always felt -induction time is more about getting the shot off while being attacked more than increasing the RoF of induction skills.

    I don't think -30% healing would really make that much difference. If we're getting hit, things have gone wrong in a group situation.

    As for precision stance WhifOfDespair hit the nail on the head.
    That would work. As I said, it doesn't really matter how the increase in dmg is implemented, just that it happens.
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  15. #90
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    what did the trait used to be? (even though i'm a founder, i wasn't playing my hunter much the first 8 months, so i really don't remember)
    It used to be a tic of focus every 5 seconds while in precision stance. That, combined with Deadly Precision and you never really ran out of focus... but then again, focus decay was 1 tic per second while moving.
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  16. #91
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    ...but then again, focus decay was 1 tic per second while moving.
    Am I weird 'cause I actually preferred the old Focus loss rate? Mind you, I wouldn't trade the lose-Focus-at-the-beginning-of-movement thing for the world (a million thank-yous to whomever is responsible for that change), but I actually sorta liked the old flavor.
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  17. #92

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Given that I can't jump to my hearts content without losing focus, I remain displeased with the system.
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  18. #93
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Thread is too meaty to die.

    Mmm, meaty...
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