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  1. #51
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tannus View Post
    So basically we should have 1 stance

    Range DPS stance!

    We use it in groups, solo, everything.

    Nothing else for hunters matters at all, we just need to put out as much ranged DPS as possible. There is no point in doing anything else, or considering anything else, because range dps is king!

    I give up.
    Or you could read the original post and look at the concept of different stances that do different things for our primary role: ranged DPS. WhifOfDespair very thoroughly laid out ideas for a framework of how the stances would have different applications and emphases without fundamentally redefining what a Hunter is supposed to do. All of that, and he addressed the core problem with the class: lackluster performance in our primary role in a group setting.
    Whiskeysam Mcgee - Hunter, Fisherman, Inn League Member

    "Using a bow to stand upright since the Second Age"

  2. #52

    Re: The Stance Thread

    For the record, not that my opinion on this has anymore weight than others, but ...

    I think I'll stand by my original proposal which calls for keeping S:Strength the same as it is now, but with just slight buffs to Evade & Parry.

    I am not opposed to Hunters having more powerful melee skills. However, they are not necessary to fix the central problem I am talking about in my OP and adding that to the mix just complicates the potential development of the solution, decreasing the chance of anything being actually implemented.

    Keeping Strength pretty much as it is now would mean we would not be any worse off at soloing than we are now. Better, even, because of the slight avoidance buffs. The main reason for those buffs though, is to provide incentive to use Strength and NOT (the new) Precision when not in a group.

    Adding +melee dmg to Strength might indeed add additional incentive to use it for solo work, and I admit that there is an attractiveness to the idea, but I don't think that it would be necessary to make all this work. And it would greatly increase the development cost involved.

    The new Precision would have no avoidance but would have more damage, thus the incentive would be there to use it when in groups. It would NOT have the aggro & power penalties that the current Strength stance has.

    More than anything, I just want us to get to the point where we are trading our primary group role (ranged, single target DPS) against solo survivability, just like the other classes do.

    We have to stop trading aggro and power penalties for DPS. That just doesn't work.
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  3. #53
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    I agree completely with everything WhifOfDespair just said.
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  4. #54
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WhifOfDespair View Post
    For the record, not that my opinion on this has anymore weight than others, but ...

    I think I'll stand by my original proposal which calls for keeping S:Strength the same as it is now, but with just slight buffs to Evade & Parry.

    I am not opposed to Hunters having more powerful melee skills. However, they are not necessary to fix the central problem I am talking about in my OP and adding that to the mix just complicates the potential development of the solution, decreasing the chance of anything being actually implemented.

    Keeping Strength pretty much as it is now would mean we would not be any worse off at soloing than we are now. Better, even, because of the slight avoidance buffs. The main reason for those buffs though, is to provide incentive to use Strength and NOT (the new) Precision when not in a group.

    Adding +melee dmg to Strength might indeed add additional incentive to use it for solo work, and I admit that there is an attractiveness to the idea, but I don't think that it would be necessary to make all this work. And it would greatly increase the development cost involved.

    The new Precision would have no avoidance but would have more damage, thus the incentive would be there to use it when in groups. It would NOT have the aggro & power penalties that the current Strength stance has.

    More than anything, I just want us to get to the point where we are trading our primary group role (ranged, single target DPS) against solo survivability, just like the other classes do.

    We have to stop trading aggro and power penalties for DPS. That just doesn't work.
    I agree with the gist of this. Melee changes at this point will only hinder the root problem being addressed. However, if you add a damage bonus to Precision, people are going to use Precision to solo on melee mobs until they're in range. That mitigates the incentive for using Strength and actually reduces the efficacy of Strength stance. People are going to use the highest damaging stance for as long as they can. So what you'll end up seeing is someone laying a trap, attacking the ranged mob in Strength stance, and letting the melee mob run into the trap. After killing the ranged mob, they will switch to Precision and burn the mob down as fast as possible until he's in melee range when they will switch back to Strength.

    Having no avoidance on Precision may not be feasible in practice. There are times when a Hunter may have to pull aggro off a minstrel, for example. To have to switch to Strength to do so and survive, puts us back in the position of sacrificing DPS to be useful which defeats the whole point of Precision being our group stance. Turbine could do something simple like make Precision stance speed up all inductions and greatly increase the usefulness of the stance.

    In fact, the simplest changes would be to reduce the threat Strength generates but increase the power cost on the stance (maybe by lowering the Hunter's ICPR?) so it can't be sustained. Make it a true nuker stance. Precision then becomes the default stance for sustained DPS with Endurance retaining its role as a power-conserving/threat reducing stance (maybe even giving Endurance an ICPR bonus to recover from using Strength stance). This is a shift away from the idea of a solo vs a group stance, but it's closer to how SoA played. The great failing of Moria is that it killed diversity in builds. There used to be equal viability in running in Precision with the added focus gained from Enduring Precision and Deadly Precision and running in Strength all the time. With Strength specifically getting buffed by the Bowmaster line and Precision getting nothing, it made Precision pointless to use. Strength has now become the de facto stance but with threat generation out of proportion to other DPS classes.
    Last edited by FolklegendRedux; Aug 26 2009 at 01:40 AM.
    Whiskeysam Mcgee - Hunter, Fisherman, Inn League Member

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  5. #55
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FolklegendRedux View Post
    I agree with the gist of this. Melee changes at this point will only hinder the root problem being addressed. However, if you add a damage bonus to Precision, people are going to use Precision to solo on melee mobs until they're in range. That mitigates the incentive for using Strength and actually reduces the efficacy of Strength stance. People are going to use the highest damaging stance for as long as they can. So what you'll end up seeing is someone laying a trap, attacking the ranged mob in Strength stance, and letting the melee mob run into the trap. After killing the ranged mob, they will switch to Precision and burn the mob down as fast as possible until he's in melee range when they will switch back to Strength.

    Having no avoidance on Precision may not be feasible in practice. There are times when a Hunter may have to pull aggro off a minstrel, for example. To have to switch to Strength to do so and survive, puts us back in the position of sacrificing DPS to be useful which defeats the whole point of Precision being our group stance. Turbine could do something simple like make Precision stance speed up all inductions and greatly increase the usefulness of the stance.

    In fact, the simplest changes would be to reduce the threat Strength generates but increase the power cost on the stance (maybe by lowering the Hunter's ICPR?) so it can't be sustained. Make it a true nuker stance. Precision then becomes the default stance for sustained DPS with Endurance retaining its role as a power-conserving/threat reducing stance (maybe even giving Endurance an ICPR bonus to recover from using Strength stance). This is a shift away from the idea of a solo vs a group stance, but it's closer to how SoA played. The great failing of Moria is that it killed diversity in builds. There used to be equal viability in running in Precision with the added focus gained from Enduring Precision and Deadly Precision and running in Strength all the time. With Strength specifically getting buffed by the Bowmaster line and Precision getting nothing, it made Precision pointless to use. Strength has now become the de facto stance but with threat generation out of proportion to other DPS classes.
    Wouldn't everything you're talking about be solved by precision stance and a longer lasting burn hot?
    Reasonable DPS with huge burst damage.
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  6. #56
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tannus View Post
    Wouldn't everything you're talking about be solved by precision stance and a longer lasting burn hot?
    Reasonable DPS with huge burst damage.
    I left out above the need for a boost in base DPS to bring us in line with other DPS classes. The mechanics of Strength in that scenario would be similar to Burn Hot except without the drop to 1/1 Power penalty. All three stances (Fleet is being ignored) would have the same power costs just with different ICPR settings (Strength -X, Pre +0, Endurance, +X). Precision stance right now has no reason to use it. There are no set bonuses like the Bowmaster line gives to Strength. Because Strength does so much more damage with 3+ Bowmaster traits, Precision just can't keep up as it currently is. I'm sure there are problems with this as it's a tossed off idea, but it's another example of how the overall concept behind the class needs to be reinforced by any changes.

    The RK should have played out differently. It should be second tier DPS and second tier Healing. They should be able to do both well, but the tradeoff of doing both being that they aren't the best at either. Champs and Hunters should do slightly more DPS than RKs, as Minstrels should be slightly better at healing. Whether it's through skill adjustments or a weapon adjustment I don't know. I do agree with Yosoff's post in another thread that threat mechanics are way out of proportion for Hunters for the lesser amount of damage we're doing relative to other classes.
    Last edited by FolklegendRedux; Aug 26 2009 at 02:14 AM.
    Whiskeysam Mcgee - Hunter, Fisherman, Inn League Member

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  7. #57
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    if RK had less DPS than they have now their solo ability would be non existent.
    They are super squishy.
    That's what i was saying about light armour nukers before.

    i think the idea behind the precision stance changes that WhifOfDespair is talking about (0 parry, 0 evade) is to try and compensate for our medium armour advantage so we can justifiably do light armour damage levels. Another way to do this might be to make all our abilities always interrupted in melee (like fighting those damn bats!)

    the proposed change in strength to increase melee damage is primary to reduce the attractiveness of strength in a group situation without compromising their soloability. it's a variation on WhifOfDespairs concept, that's all. And he's probably right in that the extra dev time wouldn't justify it.

    i think one problem with stances affecting ICPR settings is that the new hunter build will be as much power as you can get and anything power reducing. then just use strength stance and go all out.
    [center][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000e4a6e/01007/signature.png]Aegalir[/charsig]
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  8. #58
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tannus View Post
    if RK had less DPS than they have now their solo ability would be non existent.
    They are super squishy.
    That's what i was saying about light armour nukers before.

    i think the idea behind the precision stance changes that WhifOfDespair is talking about (0 parry, 0 evade) is to try and compensate for our medium armour advantage so we can justifiably do light armour damage levels. Another way to do this might be to make all our abilities always interrupted in melee (like fighting those damn bats!)

    the proposed change in strength to increase melee damage is primary to reduce the attractiveness of strength in a group situation without compromising their soloability. it's a variation on WhifOfDespairs concept, that's all. And he's probably right in that the extra dev time wouldn't justify it.

    i think one problem with stances affecting ICPR settings is that the new hunter build will be as much power as you can get and anything power reducing. then just use strength stance and go all out.
    Yeah, and a Power stacking build is just a lateral move from the current Morale stacking builds people are using now. There's no getting around min/maxers. What would be nice would be stances that enable similar results for different styles. For example, a Precision hunter might go pewpewpew. Smaller hits at a faster speed. Strength would go PEW PEW PEW. Slower but more powerful hits. You could do that through slower inductions for Strength. The DPS numbers would be roughly the same. If the DPS numbers are not equivalent across stances, people are just going to use the highest DPS stance unless either a) there are advantages to using the other stance like Endurance has in power/threat management or b) there are penalties for using the high DPS stance like the current threat generation of Strength. The current problem with Precision is that it does not currently do the same DPS as Strength, but there is no advantage gained for using it like Endurance has. Yes, there are stance bonuses, but those get dwarfed by the additional set bonuses Strength picks up in Bowmaster. Also, the penalties incurred in Strength are out of line with the penalties other classes have for high DPS as several have mentioned.
    Whiskeysam Mcgee - Hunter, Fisherman, Inn League Member

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  9. #59
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Another question is should we be switching stances mid fight as you were discussing before.

    After killing the ranged mob, they will switch to Precision and burn the mob down as fast as possible until he's in melee range when they will switch back to Strength
    Is that a problem?

    It would certainly make playing a hunter more interactive and more dynamic.
    Right now i never change stance, I trait for one stance and stick to it.

    Should stances and trait lines be separated to allow for more adaptable hunters?
    [center][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000e4a6e/01007/signature.png]Aegalir[/charsig]
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  10. #60
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    P.S. and to answer the question above... why should hunters have 3 viable for group play trait lines? i answered that already... champs have 3 lines viable in group play, so do RKs, etc... i'm just asking for equality...
    Yeah, you said you think we should get it cause they have it, but why do we need to get the same stuff as everyone else? Like I said, not everyone has 3 trait lines viable for solo play, do you think that needs to be changed? Things like DPS need to be balanced across classes, obviously. But I see no reason why everyone needs to have exactly the same number of build options for any given situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waylen View Post
    You did see the +40% dmg SS right? Do you really believe that SS is going to get a boost in dmg without an increase in power and threat? Its a great trade off and if you disagree why don't you make an argument that goes longer then a word. Its also a great tradeoff to get our other stances boosted.
    Well, since you yourself noted the fact that you were just copying an idea from another post, I figured you might remember that I already responded there. Since that's not the case, here's my response from the first time you posted this horrible idea:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    Ugh, no! That would make it useless except for a toggle before a couple big shots (S:S -> HS -> Pen -> RoA -> AA -> Pen -> Power Pot -> SB -> Pen -> S:E -> Beg LM for Power).

    --(my own suggestions snipped)--
    The one word answer NO! seemed sufficient for the second time around. Having a stance that increased power usage by 80% would be all but useless. We have Burn Hot already. +80% power costs would make S:S just as unsustainable as Burn Hot. So we could go to S:S, pop Burn Hot, and use all of our power to do 1 ridiculous big hit... all that does is give the MPers another big shiny one-shotter to complain about.
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  11. #61
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tannus View Post
    Another question is should we be switching stances mid fight as you were discussing before.



    Is that a problem?

    It would certainly make playing a hunter more interactive and more dynamic.
    Right now i never change stance, I trait for one stance and stick to it.

    Should stances and trait lines be separated to allow for more adaptable hunters?
    It's not a problem per se, but it defeats the whole point of trying to make Strength stance the solo stance. It wouldn't be. As to switching stances, I used to switch between all three in SoA mainly running in Precision. Now, I just run in Strength stance unless I need to conserve power or lower threat. In those cases I switch to Endurance. As far as trait lines and stances go, I thought after reading about Bowmaster buffing Strength that the obvious design was going to be Trapper buffing Endurance and Huntsmen buffing Precision. I don't know how they came up with only buffing Strength stance.
    Whiskeysam Mcgee - Hunter, Fisherman, Inn League Member

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  12. #62

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Great discussion.

    Whiskeysam - the stance toggling is probably the main fly in the ointment on the idea, but I don't think its a huge problem to address.

    If the idea is to make Precision the sustained DPS stance with highest sustained DPS, that doesn't mean it has to exceed or match Strength for burst dmg. If they reduce the top-end skills while bringing up the bottom end skills while in Precision, the stance could provide overall higher sustained dmg while not providing the highest burst. That would further favor Strength for scenarios such as you described.

    That would require a lot of testing of shot sequences to arrive at the right numbers, but it would be doable.

    Alternatively, and this may seem odd but is probably easier to implement and probably more effective - simply use a throttle on the Precision dmg bonus that slowly lets up the longer you are in combat in the stance.

    For example, as defined by my proposal, Precision needs to keep it's +to hit buff and the QS +crit as well as getting a comparable-to-strength dmg bonus to get it where we need to be for sustained dps contribution in a group boss fight. But if they ramp the dmg bonus contribution up slowly, say over 5-15 seconds, then it would not come into play fast enough for use when solo'ing. But most boss fights last much longer than that, and so the bonus would contribute significantly there. To balance the lower early contribution, the bonus should end up a little bit higher than I originally postulated. Hey, we could even have a little Precision Attunement Meter(tm), just like RuneKeepers!!!

    There are probably other solutions, but I think they could make that work and that doesn't seem too costly to implement.

    That would virtually eliminate stance toggling to Precision for other than long fights. I might suggest that if you toggle away from Precision, for example to use the Strength+QS snare or conserve power in Endurance for a minute, that if you haven't left combat, the attunement should not reset so that it's still full when you switch back to Precision. But if you drop combat, it should reset.

    This would allow for switching to Strength to pull a mob off the Minstrel.

    So stance switching would be important, but it would not be a way to get past the purpose of the stance.
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  13. #63
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    I like the idea of the longer we're in a stance the more benefit we derive from it.
    I think the attunement meter is a little excessive, but the corruption method used by mobs would have the same effect.

    Maybe something that would be interesting is to scale the "attunement" to our focus bar, so we weigh up the benefits of hard hitting focus shots with less damage or crits or whatever on our inductions / auto.

    Then add switching stance zeros our focus, but we can use IC to recover...
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  14. #64
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WhifOfDespair View Post
    If the idea is to make Precision the sustained DPS stance with highest sustained DPS, that doesn't mean it has to exceed or match Strength for burst dmg. If they reduce the top-end skills while bringing up the bottom end skills while in Precision, the stance could provide overall higher sustained dmg while not providing the highest burst. That would further favor Strength for scenarios such as you described.
    How do we define burst damage? Would you consider burst to be sustainable for 15 seconds? 30? A minute?

    I think the turtle has skewed the idea of burst vs sustained a bit. With some parses coming in at barely over 2 minutes, with the right build and a few infusions from a LM, S:S has basically become a sustainable stance (from a power standpoint, obviously aggro is another story, if the turtle had some big attacks that would 1- or 2-shot a hunter we'd have to rely on tanks force taunting throughout to survive that).

    Alternatively, and this may seem odd but is probably easier to implement and probably more effective - simply use a throttle on the Precision dmg bonus that slowly lets up the longer you are in combat in the stance.

    For example, as defined by my proposal, Precision needs to keep it's +to hit buff and the QS +crit as well as getting a comparable-to-strength dmg bonus to get it where we need to be for sustained dps contribution in a group boss fight. But if they ramp the dmg bonus contribution up slowly, say over 5-15 seconds, then it would not come into play fast enough for use when solo'ing. But most boss fights last much longer than that, and so the bonus would contribute significantly there. To balance the lower early contribution, the bonus should end up a little bit higher than I originally postulated. Hey, we could even have a little Precision Attunement Meter(tm), just like RuneKeepers!!!
    I know you're not actually suggesting we use the attunement meter, but I don't really like the idea of all our shots getting stronger over time. I guess I can't think of a sensible (pseudo-reality-based) justification for it. Rather than having arrows that magically get more damaging, another approach that might get the desired result would be an increasing crit chance buff. The idea being that as a battle progresses, we get more and more into "the zone" and are able to hit criticals with increasing proficiency. Maybe have it tied to hitting crits. For example: with every crit hit in S:P, we get a buff (or increase the existing buff on subsequent crits) that increases our crit chance by 1%. The increase might need to be smaller, or maybe it would only be tied to one skill (Pen Shot? or maybe Barbed Arrow to make it actually useful ), but I think that would be a reasonable mechanic for hunters to be able to increase DPS over time. As you said, the buff should expire out of combat.
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    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

    [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=92210"]Camp Site List[/URL] [/b][COLOR=#8C9FB2]||[/COLOR] [B][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?338615-Regen&p=4742372#post4742372"]Regen (PIC/MIC) from Fate[/URL] [COLOR=#8C9FB2][/B]||[B] Convert Ratings to Percent[/B]: [B][/COLOR][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4082215#post4082215"]BPE/Crit/Etc.[/URL][/B][/size]

  15. #65
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,855

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    How do we define burst damage?
    Science has led me to measure burst damage by developing the 'e-peen pants' It measures the change in volume of your digital pants. Since burst damage results in huge e-peens, it's just a matter or recording before and after pants volumes.

    For example: below is a pic of a MoM release hunter right after a Dev Crit HS:






    and two Fraps:

    Last edited by kerryak; Aug 27 2009 at 08:55 AM.
    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
    [/color]

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    3,228

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kerryak View Post
    Science has led me to measure burst damage by developing the 'e-peen pants' It measures the change in volume of your digital pants. Since burst damage results in huge e-peens, it's just a matter or recording before and after e-peen volumes.

    For example: below is a pic of a MoM release hunter right after a Dev Crit HS:






    and two Fraps:

    Aaah hahahah!!

    Well played!
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

    [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=92210"]Camp Site List[/URL] [/b][COLOR=#8C9FB2]||[/COLOR] [B][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?338615-Regen&p=4742372#post4742372"]Regen (PIC/MIC) from Fate[/URL] [COLOR=#8C9FB2][/B]||[B] Convert Ratings to Percent[/B]: [B][/COLOR][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4082215#post4082215"]BPE/Crit/Etc.[/URL][/B][/size]

  17. #67

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kerryak View Post
    Science has led me to measure burst damage by developing the 'e-peen pants' It measures the change in volume of your digital pants. Since burst damage results in huge e-peens, it's just a matter or recording before and after pants volumes.

    For example: below is a pic of a MoM release hunter right after a Dev Crit HS:






    and two Fraps:

    No No No! Hammer - plz stop using Fleet Stance! This thread is about Strength, Precision and Endurance!!!

    (Sigh ... I saw Hammer in concert once ... feeling old now ... thanks Hataru. Just f**king thanks.)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b0000000544bf/01007/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Pew! Pew! Pew!

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    710

    Re: The Stance Thread

    If only improved fleet stance had the right sound effect...

    "Stop! Hammer time!"

    I would use it. Oh hell yes i would use it.
    [center][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000e4a6e/01007/signature.png]Aegalir[/charsig]
    "Can't we all just get along?"
    [/center]

  19. #69

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom12 View Post
    I know you're not actually suggesting we use the attunement meter, but I don't really like the idea of all our shots getting stronger over time. I guess I can't think of a sensible (pseudo-reality-based) justification for it. Rather than having arrows that magically get more damaging, another approach that might get the desired result would be an increasing crit chance buff. The idea being that as a battle progresses, we get more and more into "the zone" and are able to hit criticals with increasing proficiency. Maybe have it tied to hitting crits. For example: with every crit hit in S:P, we get a buff (or increase the existing buff on subsequent crits) that increases our crit chance by 1%. The increase might need to be smaller, or maybe it would only be tied to one skill (Pen Shot? or maybe Barbed Arrow to make it actually useful ), but I think that would be a reasonable mechanic for hunters to be able to increase DPS over time. As you said, the buff should expire out of combat.
    LOL - i'm only half-joking about the attunement meter...

    As far as the shots getting stronger over time, I was thinking of it more as a decreasing nerf (throttle) so that they just take a dozen shots or so to level off at their normal mode. As you say, a few moments to get 'in the zone' as a shooter. I definitely wasn't thinking that the dmg increase would just keep on climbing forever or anything like that.

    Whether the dmg output of this improved Precision stance is buffed up via a %dmg buff or an increase to crit rating doesn't matter, really. I'll leave that up to the devs. I don't like the idea of tying it to a particular skill shot.

    I think the idea of this makes a lot of sense. You are basically putting all your trust in your team to defend you, so you are totally focused on your target, not making any effort to evade or parry attacks.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b0000000544bf/01007/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Pew! Pew! Pew!

  20. #70
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    The Old Dominion
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    684

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WhifOfDespair View Post
    LOL - i'm only half-joking about the attunement meter...

    As far as the shots getting stronger over time, I was thinking of it more as a decreasing nerf (throttle) so that they just take a dozen shots or so to level off at their normal mode. As you say, a few moments to get 'in the zone' as a shooter. I definitely wasn't thinking that the dmg increase would just keep on climbing forever or anything like that.

    Whether the dmg output of this improved Precision stance is buffed up via a %dmg buff or an increase to crit rating doesn't matter, really. I'll leave that up to the devs. I don't like the idea of tying it to a particular skill shot.

    I think the idea of this makes a lot of sense. You are basically putting all your trust in your team to defend you, so you are totally focused on your target, not making any effort to evade or parry attacks.
    The only problem with this is the bosses that randomly attack people regardless of who has aggro.
    Whiskeysam Mcgee - Hunter, Fisherman, Inn League Member

    "Using a bow to stand upright since the Second Age"

  21. #71

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Wow...this thread is bordering on over-complexity of epic proportions.

    When it comes down to it we do too little damage for the threat we make in Strength, and Endurance doesn't give us equivalent damage to strength - in exchange for a vast reduction in power usage and threat.

    So what we're really talking about here - is we want to do more damage without sending our tank off the deep end. If Strength stance is our stance for blowing the sh*t out of things i.e. our solo stance, and endurance is supposed to allow us to do the same damage over time...(but obviously fails), what's the quickest way to remedy that? Have Endurance do more damage? Well...yeah, but then why have Strength Stance if you can do the same amount of damage but with actually less power use/threat?

    Here's a simple way of gaining more damage over time (i.e. big boss fights) without forcing a need for artificial threat magnification and power penalties: Make Endurance reduce inductions on bow skills by...oh...let's say about 40% - 50%. Make up for burst damage a la Strength Stance, by speeding up the non-amplified skills.

    This way - we'll still be doing equal or even greater damage than in strength stance over time. Which would actually not only be beneficial in boss fights, but would also draw a clear cut line between a solo stance (i.e. big numbers to bring a normal mob down quicker) and a group stance, that if used while soloing - would produce almost equally undesirable results as using Strength Stance while grouping.

    At least that's my two cents. And yes, I realize that you get a 10% induction reduction having 3 in the huntsman line that's taken into account. I mean after all, if we can't be the nuker in groups - it doesn't mean that we can't still fulfill our ranged DPS job.
    [CENTER][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/wK9A7aa.png[/IMG]

    [SIZE=1][B][COLOR=white]75[/COLOR][/B] Fourohfour | [B][COLOR=white]75[/COLOR][/B] Artemedis | [COLOR=Blue][B]60[/B][/COLOR] Whiskeytango Foxtrot | [B][COLOR=#00ca00]50[/COLOR][/B] Mistah Boombastic | [B][COLOR=#00ca00]56[/COLOR][/B] Appetizer | [B][COLOR=#a7a7a7]25[/COLOR][/B] Aggromi | [B][COLOR=blue]61[/COLOR][/B] Onepointtwentyone Gigawatts [/SIZE] [/CENTER]

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    3,228

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WhifOfDespair View Post
    LOL - i'm only half-joking about the attunement meter...

    As far as the shots getting stronger over time, I was thinking of it more as a decreasing nerf (throttle) so that they just take a dozen shots or so to level off at their normal mode. As you say, a few moments to get 'in the zone' as a shooter. I definitely wasn't thinking that the dmg increase would just keep on climbing forever or anything like that.

    Whether the dmg output of this improved Precision stance is buffed up via a %dmg buff or an increase to crit rating doesn't matter, really. I'll leave that up to the devs. I don't like the idea of tying it to a particular skill shot.

    I think the idea of this makes a lot of sense. You are basically putting all your trust in your team to defend you, so you are totally focused on your target, not making any effort to evade or parry attacks.
    Perhaps the increased damage buff should be tied to a decreased P/E debuff? With each crit, we gain 1% crit chance and forfeit 0.5% parry and 0.5% evade (or some fancy formula to account for P != E so they'd both reach zero at the same point).

    It'd probably just over complicate things, but you could even have P&E be the limiter on how much crit chance could be gained. So if you had 10% parry and 12% evade, your crit chance buff could grow to 22% giving you a total of 37% crit chance assuming you were capped at 15% to begin with. If you had crit, parry & evade all capped, you could eventually reach 45% crit chance.
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

    [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=92210"]Camp Site List[/URL] [/b][COLOR=#8C9FB2]||[/COLOR] [B][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?338615-Regen&p=4742372#post4742372"]Regen (PIC/MIC) from Fate[/URL] [COLOR=#8C9FB2][/B]||[B] Convert Ratings to Percent[/B]: [B][/COLOR][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4082215#post4082215"]BPE/Crit/Etc.[/URL][/B][/size]

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,855

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WhifOfDespair View Post
    thanks Hataru. Just f**king thanks
    2L2Q, good sir. 2L2Q.
    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
    [/color]

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    The Old Dominion
    Posts
    684

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia View Post
    Wow...this thread is bordering on over-complexity of epic proportions.

    When it comes down to it we do too little damage for the threat we make in Strength, and Endurance doesn't give us equivalent damage to strength - in exchange for a vast reduction in power usage and threat.

    So what we're really talking about here - is we want to do more damage without sending our tank off the deep end. If Strength stance is our stance for blowing the sh*t out of things i.e. our solo stance, and endurance is supposed to allow us to do the same damage over time...(but obviously fails), what's the quickest way to remedy that? Have Endurance do more damage? Well...yeah, but then why have Strength Stance if you can do the same amount of damage but with actually less power use/threat?

    Here's a simple way of gaining more damage over time (i.e. big boss fights) without forcing a need for artificial threat magnification and power penalties: Make Endurance reduce inductions on bow skills by...oh...let's say about 40% - 50%. Make up for burst damage a la Strength Stance, by speeding up the non-amplified skills.

    This way - we'll still be doing equal or even greater damage than in strength stance over time. Which would actually not only be beneficial in boss fights, but would also draw a clear cut line between a solo stance (i.e. big numbers to bring a normal mob down quicker) and a group stance, that if used while soloing - would produce almost equally undesirable results as using Strength Stance while grouping.

    At least that's my two cents. And yes, I realize that you get a 10% induction reduction having 3 in the huntsman line that's taken into account. I mean after all, if we can't be the nuker in groups - it doesn't mean that we can't still fulfill our ranged DPS job.
    Where does Precision fall in this? You're right about the threat generated being out of proportion to the damage dealt relative to other classes. But unless all three stances do the same DPS, people are always going to use the highest DPS stance as much as possible which is why most people are sitting in Strength stance until they have to drop to Endurance for threat/power management. We're using one and a half stances.
    Last edited by FolklegendRedux; Aug 28 2009 at 10:11 AM.
    Whiskeysam Mcgee - Hunter, Fisherman, Inn League Member

    "Using a bow to stand upright since the Second Age"

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    4,740

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Although the Stances to me dont come up as an issue to often, after reading some of what was mentioned and playing my RK up to 35. ( yeah she hasnt gotten any higher. oh well. )

    Kinda thought about the whole Attunement to Stances.

    I wouldnt want to see an actual Attunement bar or anything of that such but maybe a set of skills we gain access to per stance.

    These skills would compliment the stance we are in in different ways as well as set us up with a few global Skills for use with all Stances.

    This would promote the use of Situational to Semi-Perm Use Stances while running amuck in Middle-Earth.

    Although most likely it owuld just anger some set of players for not being permitted to use Super Ultra Mega Death Shot while in Fleet Stance instead of Strength Stance or something but that just would derive it down to the old saying of you cant have your cake and eat it to.

    Id go into skill ideas but eh. Just something I thought about for 2 minutes while reading some of the 5 friggin pages this thread has gone on lol.
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

 

 
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