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  1. #1

    The Stance Thread

    'Decided to pull a side discussion out of the DPS Problem thread since the OP there preferred to discuss the issue of Hunter Legacies and Gear and how they relate to our dmg output problems.

    The point of the discussion here is to look at our stances. Some of us (myself included) feel that a large part of the problem is a lack of clarity around the intended purpose of each stance.

    Hunter Stances Today


    As things stand right now, and CStats parses bear this out, the only way we Hunters can even get close to matching the sustained DPS of other classes is through the use of Stance:Strength. However, that stance incurs aggro and power penalties that make it unusable for the vast majority of group boss-mob combat scenarios.

    Stance:Endurance has the appropriate aggro and power level characteristics needed to use in a boss fight, but its low damage output make it currently very damage/time innefficient. To the point that most of wonder why we are even there ...

    Stance:Precision tries to be the middle ground - more damage (through fewer misses and a +crit buff to QS) than Endurance, but not quite the aggro and power problems of Strength. But it does use more power than Endurance and doesn't seem to result in quite as much dmg as Strength. It also lacks that most-useful of side-effects for solo work - the QS snare that Strength provides. The problem is that, because it is in the middle ground, it isn't really ideal for solo OR group work. Its mostly a stance right now that you toggle to situationally, such as when fighting higher-level mobs or in a group fight after the tank locks aggro but before its safe to go to Strength.

    So in summation we currently have one stance that is ideal for solo work, but dangerous and inappropriate for group boss fights. Another stance that is safe to use for group boss fights but basically inneffective at delivering dmg. And a third stance that is sort of so-so for either. We do not have a stance that makes us ideally suited for delivering sustained dmg in a group boss fight.

    Oh yeah, then there is Fleet stance .... ugh. Not sure what to say about that. i'll let somebody else beat up that horse. At any rate, it is even less designed around group boss fights.

    Group vs Solo - Other Classes

    Now, if you look at the way other classes are designed, many of them have different stances or 'modes' that tune them one way or another between solo or group work. For example, 'non-DPS' classes, like Minstrels and Guardians, they each have a mode (War Speech and Overpower, respectively) that makes them more appropriate for solo work by increasing their DPS over what they normally need in groups to be effective. In group setting, these classes' primary roles are about other things than DPS so it is not needed there, but they do need it in order to solo effectively.

    On the other hand, the 'DPS' classes, for example, RKs and Champs, actually go the other way. They decrease their DPS when in solo mode, but gain in survivability. This makes sense because while in a group setting, other classes provide survivability benefits for DPS classes (tanking, healing, CC) so that these classes can concentrate on delivering maximum DPS). When solo, they need additional survival skills (avoidance, healing) so their DPS output is actually decreased when in solo mode.

    So basically, most other classes have a solo mode that decreases their primary group role yet provides survivability benefits that compensate for not being in a group. Or conversely, they have a group mode that INCREASES THEIR PRIMARY ROLE AT THE COST OF SURVIVABILITY - since in a group, they have others providing those other skills that help them survive.

    Group vs Solo - Hunters

    Hunters, of course, are all screwed up. Our solo mode is fine - Strength stance produces pretty close to the right amount of DPS for most of our solo work (or it would if the ISB problem and Barbed Arrow were both fixed) and provides a nifty survivability helper in the form of the QS slow debuff. But when we get in groups, where others should be tanking mobs off of us or healing us, or using CC to keep mobs off of us, we strangely don't have a mode that results in us able to output maximum damage.

    When in groups, Hunters only have a mode (Stance:Endurance) that DECREASES THEIR PRIMARY PURPOSE (it reduces dps output relative to the other two stances).

    The Solution

    Proposition: Hunters should have a mode that, just like the other DPS classes, trades away survivability in favor of higher DPS when in group boss fights. This mode should NOT be an aggro magnet and should NOT be a power black hole. It should be a mode that legitimately works for sustained DPS in a group boss fight.

    I believe that this could be done by doing the following (copied/updated from the earlier thread):

    First off, our base, unstanced, dmg output needs to be tweaked overall just a smidge. Roughly to where S:Precision currently is. How exactly this is accomplished is irrelevant. The Devs have access to the data and can use that to do the adjustment. It could be through increased dmg numbers, decreased miss rate, fixing specific skills whatever. In particular, ISB and Barbed Arrow desperately need to be fixed. Note that changing our Legacies to actually boost our DPS could effectively contribute to this adjustment.

    Now, to address the problem described above to create distinct solo versus group modes for the Hunter class that trade survivability.

    1) Keep Strength dmg, aggro & power costs the same as it is. It remains our primary solo stance. Fix the QS slow legacy, of course. Give us a slight +Parry & +Evade buff while in this stance.

    2) Raise the damage of Precision stance to the same as Strength but also keep the current crit bonus. Yes, this means that Precision would now become our max dmg stance. Keep its power costs the same as now but reduce the aggro. But nerf our Evade and Parry tremendously while using this stance. The idea is that we are concentrating so much on precision shooting that we can't dodge/parry as easily. The evade / parry reductions will make this stance impractical for solo use except in rare exceptions.

    3) Endurance, because it is unmodified from 'unstanced' base, is implicitely moved (see above) to where Precision currently is. Leave the aggro and power as they currently are. It does not modify Evade/Parry. This is still the long-term power saving mode for either solo or group work.

    From a game mechanics, standpoint, these changes are very low development cost to make. Yet they would represent a fundamental shift that I believe would directly address the problem that we are struggling with. This would greatly increase our DPS output in groups without changing our soloability much. The only change to the latter would be a slight buff to our defenses - the point there is to add further incentive to use Strength stance when solo.

    While Precision would now be by far the best dmg output, the absence of defenses would make it dangerous for on-level solo work (it could be used for grey mob grinding, of course, but that is hardly game-unbalancing). The power costs would still be high enough that at times you would need to use endurance, but not so high that its unusable for sustained output (like Strength currently is). The intent of the stance would be that you have either a tank or CC available to keep mobs off you while you shoot.

    Precision stance becomes analogous to the Champion's Fervor stance - high damage, but no avoidance.

    I welcome thoughts and discussion on this idea.
    Last edited by WhifOfDespair; Aug 24 2009 at 01:26 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    You know what I love about this... you didn't even mention Fleet Stance.

    Other than that, I think that it is a workable solution, I don't know if its "the best" solution... I don't know if there is a "best" solution.

    I think that a total "re-think" with minimal systemic changes should include a pass on focus costs, skill redundancy, induction times and cooldown times. I don't really want to see base damage go up on the individual skills (other than the bleed on Barbed Arrow), but I would like to see a few things tinkered with here and there to bring the base-line up without increasing the available front-loaded damage.

    But if we are looking at stances, Fleet Stance should be worth more than its lame little dance.
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  3. #3
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    It's a great suggestion, hats off to you for writing it up clearly and eloquently. Now let's try to find any holes in it and patch them up.


    How would you modify the Bowmaster and Huntsman traitlines to support the change in the roles of Stance: Strength and Stance: Precision? Sorry to pull traits into the discussion, since this is The Stance Thread, but it's important to ask. Would you leave the traitlines as they are for ease of implementation? If so, would you want Stance: Precision set to +10%, +15%, or +25% damage?

    Would a parry and evade reduction be enough of a drawback for a stance that gives maximum damage? Half of me wonders why the hell I'm even asking, 'cause it seems like enough for me, but I get the feeling that the devs don't want maximum damage and high sustainability for any class without significant counterbalances. And due to the nature of the hunter's damage a parry and evade reduction would be almost meaningless in a group setting. RKs recently got a power cost hike, and champions suffered the Fervour nerf. Would this new Stance: Precision be giving us too much at too little a cost?

    Would Stance: Endurance be rendered more or less obsolete with this change? Does full DPS burn enough power and generate enough threat to warrant ever dropping out of Stance: Precision?
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  4. #4
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    I like your concept, having a stance that allows Hunters to play their intended primary role in a group setting, however I also like the three stances as they are (more or less). Instead of changing Precision, why not scrap S:Fleet and change it to a sustained DPS Stance? S:F is useless as-is, I doubt anyone would miss it, so no loss there. Instead, change it to "Stance:Sniper" (or whatever you want to call it) with these attributes:

    Pros
    > +5% DPS bonus (with a Trait to raise it to +7.5%)
    > -530 to our target's Block and Evade (half that of S:Precision)
    > No increase in threat generation
    > No increase to Power cost for ranged skills

    Cons
    > Lower DPS than S:Strength
    > Higher aggro generation that S:Endurance
    > Higher Power consumption than S:Endurance
    > No added Focus over time
    > Lower Parry and Evade if we pull aggro

    One problem with having reduced Parry and Evade levels is that in the group setting that our new stance ("S:Sniper") is intended for you shouldn't have anything to Parry or Evade, at least not if your tanks are doing their job well. You might pull aggro temporarily, but that would be the exception, not the norm, so reducing these two stats wouldn't be much of a disadvantage. I can't think of anything better to replace them though, so for now we'll leave those two reduced stats to offset the higher DPS of our new Stance.

    In any case, I agree that something needs to be done. Hunters were supposed to be the nukers in a group. As it is, if we get into a group at all it's usually out of pity or a lack of available RK's.
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  5. #5
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    I like your idea on the stances excluding the fact that you're bringing S:Precision up way too much. If it gets bumped up as much as you want, Turbine will have to make it pretty close to fervour - no BPE, and -30% incoming healing.

    Maybe make it something like Ardour with legacies...

    +1 Focus every 7 seconds (in combat only), +10% Ranged Damage (at capped - it will start with 5% and have a legacy to tier it up, going from +1% to +5% *5%-10%*). Attach -500 (can be reduced to -300 with a legacy) Parry/Evade, +5% Ranged Crit Chance (percent, not rating). Add -10% incoming healing to that.

    That, I feel, will give you a well-rounded stance, useful for grouping, but not for soloing, and it won't bring S:Precision up too much.

    As to the traits, I'd say have traits leave the damage of S:Precision alone in the Huntsman line and have it continue to focus on fast shots.

    Bowmaster traits could continue to provide the same bonuses they do, though for the 4th trait set bonus I'd tack on just +10% base Ranged damage.
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  6. #6
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    You know what I love about this... you didn't even mention Fleet Stance.
    ### is Fleet Stance?










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    Re: The Stance Thread

    I agree that the Bowmaster line would have to get a rework to go along with this. The +damage set bonuses would need to be detached from S:S, or maybe tied to S:P in addition to S:S (so S:E and unstanced are unaffected). Not sure how that would work since the damage increases come with threat & power penalties.

    Perhaps something like the following using the 3-set bonus as an example:
    Current: +5% ranged crit damage, +5% S:S ranged damage, +5% S:S threat, +10% S:S Power
    Suggested: +5% ranged crit damage, +5% S:S & S:P ranged damage, +5% S:S threat, +10% S:S Power, -250 S:P parry and evade, -5% S:P incoming heal
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  8. #8

    Re: The Stance Thread

    have you ever tried traiting for stancerecision ? i find the added dps for the focus is very nice especially with true shot and penetrating bow.
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  9. #9
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Something definitely needs to be done to make Precision worthwhile again. These are good ideas, and let's all agree that Fleet Stance never happened.
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FolklegendRedux View Post
    Something definitely needs to be done to make Precision worthwhile again. These are good ideas, and let's all agree that Fleet Stance never happened.
    You mean just like how they only made one matrix movie?

    http://xkcd.com/566/

    I'd link the comic itself, but I don't want to be that closely associated with some of the swearing in it.
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  11. #11
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by speaksoftly View Post
    You mean just like how they only made one matrix movie?

    http://xkcd.com/566/

    I'd link the comic itself, but I don't want to be that closely associated with some of the swearing in it.
    Exactly!

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  12. #12
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    I want to reiterate what I said when this was originally posted.

    I think amongst all the whining and suggested changes for the class, this is unquestionably the best solution anyone has suggested and it is put the most clearly and succinctly. The fact that our class decreases our primary role when we function for a group is a problem that should have been addressed a long time ago, but with the multiple nerfs to our damage, is now crying to be changed.

    My one issue with this is that the way you have it suggested, every single stance (except [skill]Stance: Fleet[/skill], heh) has a buff to damage in some way. While I think this is necessary to fix the class, it says to me that the class is fundamentally broken beyond just our stances.

    In addition, having two stances that do +% to damage (Strength and Precision in your suggestion) seems to be redundant. Yes under your suggestion Strength is more for solo and Precision more for group, but perhaps there's another way to accomplish this.

    My thought is to make Precision a flat +Critical % stance. Not +Critical Rating, but %. Rather than buffing our lowest damage bow skill (aside from Barbed Arrow) and nothing more, why not make the stance buff the critical chance on all our bow skills? If we do this without increasing power cost or threat and while decreasing avoidances, we would still be achieving our goals. Big crits would still require us to watch our backs in group settings, but it would be a massive improvement to DPS because we would do more damage and gain more focus (both for [trait]Enduring Precision[/trait] and [trait]Deadly Precision[/trait]).

    Not only is this in line with Corninas' suggestion, it also helps to solve much of our problem. Champs in Fervour take aggro because of the damage they do, not because of a % increase to threat, now, we as Hunter's would have the same opportunity and would require the same care to do so.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Balthinor; Aug 24 2009 at 08:30 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Maybe i'm just a crazy person, but why not make strength stance melee based dps + the evasion and parry you're talking about.
    Precision becomes range dps and endurance stays threat / power management.

    I mean, when we're solo we spend a lot of time in melee. Why not bump up our melee damage to compare to our range levels when solo and that way no hunters will ever be in str stance in groups.
    Personally I think it looks a bit silly to be shooting monsters point blank with my bow anyway when I've got those nifty, shiny swords of mine...
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tannus View Post
    Maybe i'm just a crazy person...
    Yep. That about sums it up.
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  15. #15
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    balth, the straight +% crit damage is already accounted for in the bowmaster trait line, and is available to all stances, even non-stance posturing.

    (now to generally speaking) the main problem i see with any suggestions to changing the stances as suggested, is that now you are basicly eliminating bowmaster trait line from group play. RKs and champs have three trait lines that are all viable in group play. to further diminish one hunter trait line to solo play only further reduces hunter effectiveness in group play vs other classes. heck, even OP / Warrior's skald can be used in group play when there are an overabundance of guards / minstrels...

    (straight on bowmaster or even 4/5 bowmaster is already frowned upon as doing less damage, but costing more power, vs the huntsman traitline... so please take this into consideration.)

    ~champs have AoE line, singe target line, and tanking line

    ~RKs have healing line, DPS (fire DOTS) line, and nuke (lightning) line.

    ~hunters have crowd control (trapper) line, DPS / survivability (huntsman) line, and nuke (bowmaster) line.


    all three trait sets should be viable in group play... this needs to be taken into account when discussing changes to hunter stances.

    according to the trait sets, precision is the DPS/ survivability stance, strength is the nuke stance without survivability, and endurance is the crowd control stance. the suggestions i've seen thus far totally change the functionality of these stances into OTHER trait lines than what they're already in.

    i may have posted this idea in the other thread, can't remember, but i think something that could possibly solve our role dilemma and add useful to barbed arrow at the same time... is add barbed arrow to the 4/5 traitset bonus of each line...

    ~bowmaster: give the bleed pulses a 20% chance to score a 1k (2k crit) nuke when target is hit by another of your bow attacks (ala lightning bonuses from RK and/or scourging blow)
    ~huntsman: give barbed arrow double or triple bleed damage, and more pulses
    ~trapper of foes: change barbed arrow into a root with longer (30s) cooldown, (while returning pen shot to non-ToF pen shot), and then give melee skills 20% chance to stun for 5s

    along with +10% Stance specific damage legacies, i think this would pretty much solve hunter DPS problems, while enabling all stances/ traitlines to be viable in group and solo play.

    bowmasters could finally put out total damage numbers like huntsman (albeit in bursts, instead of steady), trappers wouldn't be pen shot gimped, and barbed arrows would finally have a place in hunter skill rotations.

    i also think half a dozen class items with 2 bonuses on each would be icing on the cake, considering that our current ones are max level 40... (RK chisels have two bonuses, Warden class items have 2 bonuses, and also happen to have traitline synergy as well)

    another thought, to possibly balance out the stances a little more, is by giving the stance bonuses from precision and endurance stance to melee skills as well.

    as for fleet stance... i think its counter productive to spend focus per second in order to not lose focus while moving, so how about give it a ICPR hit instead, and give the non 5/5 stance the 10% attack speed boost, doubling the boost for the legendary version, then maybe some hunters might actually BUY the skill from their trainer...

    /end wall of text. my apolagiez for rambling on, and for going off topic.
    Last edited by Forgotten_Legend; Aug 24 2009 at 09:10 PM.
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  16. #16

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    (now to generally speaking) the main problem i see with any suggestions to changing the stances as suggested, is that now you are basicly eliminating bowmaster trait line from group play. RKs and champs have three trait lines that are all viable in group play. to further diminish one hunter trait line to solo play only further reduces hunter effectiveness in group play vs other classes. heck, even OP / Warrior's skald can be used in group play when there are an overabundance of guards / minstrels...
    You (and others) bring up some good points about the problem of the trait lines.

    To me, I must admit that I do NOT consider BowMaster a viable group trait line already. It draws far too much agro and consumes too much power. I know that situationally it is useful in some groups, but in general, for the classic group boss fight, it is not a good stance. Your tank will hate you.

    I don't have a quick and easy solution off the top of my head for the trait lines. The trait lines, imho reflect the same confusion of purpose that the stances do. We don't have a trait line that is truly oriented around group role where by orientation I mean that it follows the rule I talked about of BOOSTING OUR PRIMARY ROLE AT THE COST OF SOLO SURVIVABILITY. Instead, they repeat the same mistake and trade aggro&power costs for increased DPS.

    • Huntsman - increases our survivability with no great increase or decrease in in DPS.
    • Trapper of Foes - increases our survivability with a huge decrease in DPS. Is suitable for group CC role.
    • BowMaster - increases our DPS but doesn't cost us anything in survivability. Comes with the aggro and power problems mentioned above that make it unsuitable for groups.


    If BowMaster didn't come with the huge aggro and power penalties and instead came with a huge solo penalty, such as evade/parry debuffs or whatever, then it could become a solution to our group boss fight problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    all three trait sets should be viable in group play... this needs to be taken into account when discussing changes to hunter stances.
    In principle I agree. Technically, the only one that is not useable in most group play is the BowMaster - because of the huge aggro and power penalties if you go beyond 4. ToF is definitely useable in groups - but for the CC role, not ranged DPS. Huntsman is useable in groups. Usually a 3/0/4 or 4/0/3 mix is going to be ideal for most groups. A boost in DPS without going too far in aggro and power penalties.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    according to the trait sets, precision is the DPS/ survivability stance, strength is the nuke stance without survivability, and endurance is the crowd control stance. the suggestions i've seen thus far totally change the functionality of these stances into OTHER trait lines than what they're already in.
    But this just illustrates the disconnect between the trait sets and reality. Ignoring the trait lines, it is butt-in-your-face obvious that S:STRENGTH is the DPS/Survivability stance that works best for solo work. It draws too much aggro/power so is clearly NOT optimal for group work and yet is ideal for solo work because aggro/power generally don't mean anything to most solo work and the QS snare is bread-and-butter useful for solo work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    i may have posted this idea in the other thread, can't remember, but i think something that could possibly solve our role dilemma and add useful to barbed arrow at the same time... is add barbed arrow to the 4/5 traitset bonus of each line...

    ~bowmaster: give the bleed pulses a 20% chance to score a 1k (2k crit) nuke when target is hit by another of your bow attacks (ala lightning bonuses from RK and/or scourging blow)
    ~huntsman: give barbed arrow double or triple bleed damage, and more pulses
    ~trapper of foes: change barbed arrow into a root with longer (30s) cooldown, (while returning pen shot to non-ToF pen shot), and then give melee skills 20% chance to stun for 5s

    along with +10% Stance specific damage legacies, i think this would pretty much solve hunter DPS problems, while enabling all stances/ traitlines to be viable in group and solo play.

    bowmasters could finally put out total damage numbers like huntsman (albeit in bursts, instead of steady), trappers wouldn't be pen shot gimped, and barbed arrows would finally have a place in hunter skill rotations.
    These are interesting suggestions, and lord knows I want Barbed Arrow to be useful more than anybody. But they are only addressing the DPS side of the issue.

    My central point is that the Hunter IS broken because we are trading off the wrong thing to get increased DPS. The Hunter design to this point is trading
    increased aggro and power costs to get DPS. This is just plain wrong. We should be trading off our independence of others (for survivability) to get increased DPS.

    When in groups, we should be doing more DPS because others are there to heal, tank and CC. When solo, we should do less DPS, but be able to evade/parry and otherwise exercise survival skills that keep us alive.

    There are multiple ways they could change the class to fix this and my suggestions were only one approach. It could also be solved within the trait lines by making BowMaster trade off survivability for DPS instead of aggro/power. The problem with solving it within the trait lines though, is that they only come into play post-lvl 50. The problem is fundamental to all levels of the class. Hence my preference to solve the problem with the stances.

    I would make the trait lines independent of stance. The bonuses/nerfs of each line would simply stack on top of whatever attributes each stance has. That means, for example, (using my suggested changes to the stances in the OP) BowMaster on top of S:P would slightly out-damage S:S which would out-damage S:E. And it would cost the least aggro&power in S:E, a little more in S:P and the most in S:S. But, because of the changes in the stances I proposed, you could not use it in S:P for solo work because you would have no defenses. You would use it with S:P in groups because your fellows would have your back, as it were. Bowmaster would be useable for solo work in S:S or S:E.

    Any suggested changes that don't address this fundamental problem of what we are trading for DPS (it should be SOLO SURVIVABILITY, not aggo/power) are just going to be wet band-aid solutions on top of the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post

    /end wall of text. my apolagiez for rambling on, and for going off topic.
    Not rambling at all. Thank you for very useful thoughts.
    .
    Pew! Pew! Pew!

  17. #17

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by XSYS View Post
    It's a great suggestion, hats off to you for writing it up clearly and eloquently. Now let's try to find any holes in it and patch them up.


    How would you modify the Bowmaster and Huntsman traitlines to support the change in the roles of Stance: Strength and Stance: Precision? Sorry to pull traits into the discussion, since this is The Stance Thread, but it's important to ask. Would you leave the traitlines as they are for ease of implementation? If so, would you want Stance: Precision set to +10%, +15%, or +25% damage?

    Would a parry and evade reduction be enough of a drawback for a stance that gives maximum damage? Half of me wonders why the hell I'm even asking, 'cause it seems like enough for me, but I get the feeling that the devs don't want maximum damage and high sustainability for any class without significant counterbalances. And due to the nature of the hunter's damage a parry and evade reduction would be almost meaningless in a group setting. RKs recently got a power cost hike, and champions suffered the Fervour nerf. Would this new Stance: Precision be giving us too much at too little a cost?

    Would Stance: Endurance be rendered more or less obsolete with this change? Does full DPS burn enough power and generate enough threat to warrant ever dropping out of Stance: Precision?
    Great questions. I think, without yet having it given it a ton of detailed thought, that I would work toward having our trait lines be independent of the stances. That would require some tweaking but fundamentally their 'ties' to the stances right now are somewhat arbitrary. I would have the bonuses/penalties stack on top of those of the stances, with minor tweaks here and there where that didn't make exact sense.

    To answer your second question, I believe that the cost of the damage output of S:P (at no real boost to aggro/power cost) should indeed be extremely harsh Evade/Parry penalties. Not just little -500ish penalties, but rather serious smack downs. We should be defenseless when in this mode - maybe not as much for ranged evade but definitely for melee and tactical. And maybe when we use it in the BowMaster line we also get an ICMR debuff.

    The point of boosting our primary role in groups is to make us more dependent on groups in return for that boost.
    .
    Pew! Pew! Pew!

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    351

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Great idea... I think they should keep strength the way it is and change prescision to make it have 10% damage (15/20% with legacy) with the -parry and evade like you said. If this happened I wonder what happen to our bows when the new legacies came out? If this happened turbine would have to make our bows unidentified and give points and relics back or maybe we'd have to get a new bow.
    Last edited by Valthirus; Aug 25 2009 at 01:01 AM.
    LOTRO: Valthirus - Hunter - Vilya
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  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    2,855

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WhifOfDespair View Post
    the QS snare is bread-and-butter useful for solo work.
    Unless you 'enhance it' w/ an awesome LI! :O




    (I kid, it's still very, very useful. so useful, that this legacy never working right is a giant slap in the package.)
    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
    [/color]

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    3,228

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    (now to generally speaking) the main problem i see with any suggestions to changing the stances as suggested, is that now you are basicly eliminating bowmaster trait line from group play. RKs and champs have three trait lines that are all viable in group play. to further diminish one hunter trait line to solo play only further reduces hunter effectiveness in group play vs other classes. heck, even OP / Warrior's skald can be used in group play when there are an overabundance of guards / minstrels...
    First of all, why do all three sets need to be good for group play? Trait sets should accentuate a role, and actually, I think that the suggestions Corinras has made still leave BM viable.
    Quote Originally Posted by WhifOfDespair View Post
    1) Keep Strength dmg, aggro & power costs the same as it is. It remains our primary solo stance. Fix the QS slow legacy, of course. Give us a slight +Parry & +Evade buff while in this stance.
    There are already hunters that tank certain content using the aggro of S:S as it is. Add some evade & parry to that and it becomes that much better for that purpose. Hunters tanking isn't a normal role, but it is a role. Just like DPSing guards or minstrels.

    (straight on bowmaster or even 4/5 bowmaster is already frowned upon as doing less damage, but costing more power, vs the huntsman traitline... so please take this into consideration.)

    ~champs have AoE line, singe target line, and tanking line

    ~RKs have healing line, DPS (fire DOTS) line, and nuke (lightning) line.

    ~hunters have crowd control (trapper) line, DPS / survivability (huntsman) line, and nuke (bowmaster) line.

    all three trait sets should be viable in group play... this needs to be taken into account when discussing changes to hunter stances.
    Looking from the other end, all three hunters' trait lines are viable for solo play. That's not true for other classes. Champs tanking line, RKs heal line (with the rare exception), etc. If you think hunters trait lines should all be viable in groups, do you also think other classes' trait lines should all be viable solo?
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  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    6

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WhifOfDespair View Post
    Stance:Precision tries to be the middle ground - more damage (through fewer misses and a +crit buff to QS) than Endurance, but not quite the aggro and power problems of Strength.
    [...] The problem is that, because it is in the middle ground, it isn't really ideal for solo OR group work. Its mostly a stance right now that you toggle to situationally, such as when fighting higher-level mobs or in a group fight after the tank locks aggro but before its safe to go to Strength.
    For group, it's very useful. I usually start in endurance to give the tank time to build some threat and then switch to precision to increase damage and kill faster. On several easy mobs, that means I kill the first one or two in endurance then switch since the others are now so angry at the tank that it's safe... Another approach if you have 2 hunters is to burn one of the mob quickly in S:S (yes that means a hunter tanking for 10~15 secs) while the main tank is building aggro on the others and then switch to precision to get the others down, there's no use to go to endurance with such a setup, since the tank, if good, will have enough aggro at that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhifOfDespair View Post
    But it does use more power than Endurance and doesn't seem to result in quite as much dmg as Strength. It also lacks that most-useful of side-effects for solo work - the QS snare that Strength provides.
    Well, for solo, I don't think that there's any reason to get off S:S... (S:S means solo stance anyway right? :P ) No, precision doesn't give as much damage as Strength (that would be just dumb), but it's higher than Endurance and that's the idea behind it.


    All in all, I think it's more about learning to use the differents stances and they are all actually usable in group play if you don't have the "Hell! I want that S:S DPS whatever stance I am in!" attitude. I'm not saying the OP or the replies had that attitude. It's just a bit too common on these forums and I needed to vent here...
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  22. #22
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    Mar 2007
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Kay View Post
    All in all, I think it's more about learning to use the differents stances and they are all actually usable in group play if you don't have the "Hell! I want that S:S DPS whatever stance I am in!" attitude. I'm not saying the OP or the replies had that attitude. It's just a bit too common on these forums and I needed to vent here...
    Please don't trivialize it to that. If the discussion was about giving us more DPS when we already had tier 1 DPS, that'd be one thing. But since even in S:S, we're being out-DPS'd by non-DPS classes, there is a real problem there. It has nothing to do with learning to play or just wanting S:S damage all the time.
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  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    231

    Re: The Stance Thread

    I've already made these suggestions in other threads. But here it is again.

    Strength stance should take the place of burn hot. A short burst of dps but unsustainable during a long fight. ~+40%dmg +80% power +50% threat. Instead burn hot should be put on a much longer cool down and have no power penalties.

    Percise stance should be the hunter's balanced stance. Percise should increase the chance and magnitude for crits in additional to what it already does. This should be at the cost of +10%power.

    Endurance is the long term sustainable dps. Endurance should reduce threat by -20% and power -20% and add 1 focus every 10 sec.

    Fleet stance should be the best stance of all, afterall you have to trait 5 in the huntsman and slot a legendary to do it. It should decrease induction times by 30% in addition to what it already does.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000000b4e77/signature.png]Wayolen[/charsig]

  24. #24
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    Re: The Stance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by waylen View Post
    strength Stance Should Take ... +80% Power
    N O !
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    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
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  25. #25

    Re: The Stance Thread

    Does anyone else view the decrease in S:S threat as a nerf to us? I miss being able to pull anything but the bugged Captain threat mark.
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