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  1. #126

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Faildir,

    How long was the fight? The recent post with the First Age that is.
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  2. #127
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken View Post
    Faildir,

    How long was the fight? The recent post with the First Age that is.
    It was around 8 minutes.
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  3. #128
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Here's mine.... All out in Strength stance since 600k with a level 59 first age bow. Had aggro at several points (way too many), so the damage I took is abnormally high. Don't remember exactly how long it took, sadly.

    Findurin - 85 Desperate Flighter - UnitedSands of Dark TrucidOticus | Gauwrun - r7 Stalker - A Team | Ashnakh - r5 Warleader - A Team
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  4. #129

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    That's pretty high for a third age weapon, ltr. How long was the fight?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000001745d1/01003/signature.png]Imyr[/charsig]

  5. #130
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeger_Wulf View Post
    That's pretty high for a third age weapon, ltr. How long was the fight?
    I want to say it was in the 6 minute range since we've never gone much longer than that to kill the turtle.

    I think most of the difference in damage from what myself and other hunters i know(another kin hunter did about the same amount of damage in that fight) experience compared to posters on this forum is based on our approach to the fight. We use every consumable available to us, pots/scrolls/battlelore/fire oil/stat food/regen food/fortifying food. It makes a big difference and I can tell from the first age parse above me that he did not use at least regen food so other consumables were likely not used either.

    Secondly traits and virtues. I see so many posts on here by "forum superstars" giving horrible advice on traits and virtues. It's almost like they want hunters to be something they are not and get away from the emphasis on our primary role of DPS. Like I've posted before, the best minstrel on our server has a hunter alt, he was complaining one day about how he felt like he did no damage with his hunter and it was not too fun to play. He retraited to what I told him, gave him some crafted ICPR bracers(he was using SDR ****) and his first comment was something about penetrating shot hitting for over 1k which I guess never happened for him before. I know he reads this forum and likely took the poor advice here and was disappointed. Some of the more laughable threads I've seen over the past few months was the "merciful shot is useless thread" and the latest discussion on traits.

    I trait 4/0/3 and routinely finish boss fights with less than 25% power. IMO the hunters job is to convert the power bar into DPS. If you are finishing boss fights with alot of power, you are not doing your best to do damage to the boss. With the book 7 turtle, it was easy to go all out DPS, now with book 8 turtle, I have to regulate myself a bit, but by 200k I'm in power burn mode and don't have to worry about aggro. I also stance dance constantly as a way to manage aggro and power consumption which is something I've seen very few hunters do. Regardless of what stance you use, the added damage from using traits in the bowmaster line will increase your DPS significantly.

  6. #131
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Well, this has been a theme for you lately, so...what do you trait? What are your preferred legacies? If we're doing it wrong...what's the right way, then?

    And I don't mean this to be all 'put up or shut up' - I'm genuinely interested. I've been playing with opening with Endurance for even just a few quickshots before switching to Strength again, and having a much better time of managing aggro - enough that I'm considering just stacking some more ICPR and using my solo build even while raiding, though I imagine leaving Endurance traited is going to be worthwhile. Just gotta get me some [item]diamond stud[/item]s.

    At the end of the day, though, in order to stay T1 damage, we have to be in S:S, right? Does a champ, OP guard, WS mins, or RK have to do anything like our stance dancing, something that moderates their damage to increase sustainability? Again, very serious question.
    Last edited by atteSmythe; Jul 02 2009 at 03:32 PM.
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  7. #132
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by atteSmythe View Post
    Well, this has been a theme for you lately, so...what do you trait? What are your preferred legacies? If we're doing it wrong...what's the right way, then?

    And I don't mean this to be all 'put up or shut up' - I'm genuinely interested. I've been playing with opening with Endurance for even just a few quickshots before switching to Strength again, and having a much better time of managing aggro - enough that I'm considering just stacking some more ICPR and using my solo build even while raiding, though I imagine leaving Endurance traited is going to be worthwhile. Just gotta get me some [item]diamond stud[/item]s.

    At the end of the day, though, in order to stay T1 damage, we have to be in S:S, right? Does a champ, OP guard, WS mins, or RK have to do anything like our stance dancing, something that moderates their damage to increase sustainability? Again, very serious question.
    Virtues(I am lazy and just leave watcher virtues all the time):
    Valour, Justice, Empathy, Compassion, Innocence

    Bowmaster Class Traits:
    The Quality of Mercy, True Shot, Deadly Precision, Swift and True

    Huntsman class Traits:
    Resolute Aim, Swift Recovery, Strong Draw

    Legendary Traits:
    BotR, Rain of Thorns, Bards Arrow

    Current leveled Xbow Legacies:
    t6 rank 8 Focus Crit Magnitude
    t5 rank 6 Induction Crit Magnitude
    t5 rank 6 Focus Power Cost

    Current leveled melee weapon legacies:
    t6 rank 8 Needful Haste
    t5 rank 9 Beneath Notice

    Settings in both are tier 8 ranged crit/devastate crit magnitude/partial evade
    Gems in both are tier 6 fate/ICPR/+incoming heal
    Runes in both tier 8 morale/power/-ranged damage

    For other stats, I generally go for 550 agility then stack as much morale and ICPR(fate) as i can.
    Last edited by ltr; Jul 02 2009 at 04:08 PM.

  8. #133
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Ah ok so IF we find the right bow with the right legacies and IF we also have a melee weapon with the proper legacies AND THEN trait right we can almost as DPS as a runekeeper.

    So funny to listen to people tell others how to play like we can just go out find those perfect first age bows lying on the ground. What about the rest of the hunters who do not have 1st age bows with perfect legacies combined with melee weapons with perfect legacies.

    Turbine needs to stop thinking everyone who plays a hunter has 8/6 radiance first age godlike bows and godlike melee 1st age weapons. Not everyone has that stuff. How about the people (Id say the vast majority of hunters) who cannot get all that stuff? They should just be swept aside?

    Tell ya what send me 200 gold so I can buy the right bow and melee wep if I can even find one with those legacies for sale and then we will talk. Do not go on about how we are just stupid and do not know how to play because we do not have god-like weapons only a select few can ever attain.

    What happened to we arent traiting right? Did you mean legacies or traits? I can retrait all day long it will not help me parse against a guy who has first age everything with all the perfect traits etc and highest dps available.

  9. #134
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Faldir, I hate to break it to you, but I don't believe that it took 8 minutes for that fight.


    If it was, then that is awful DPS (~200) which just doesn't make sense.


    I did 108k dmg in a 4m13s fight (425dps) just last night.


    In an 8 minute fight, I would have done nearly 200k dmg. Double check with someone who had the actual time or throw your data out.
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  10. #135
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth420 View Post
    Ah ok so IF we find the right bow with the right legacies and IF we also have a melee weapon with the proper legacies AND THEN trait right we can almost as DPS as a runekeeper.

    So funny to listen to people tell others how to play like we can just go out find those perfect first age bows lying on the ground. What about the rest of the hunters who do not have 1st age bows with perfect legacies combined with melee weapons with perfect legacies.

    Turbine needs to stop thinking everyone who plays a hunter has 8/6 radiance first age godlike bows and godlike melee 1st age weapons. Not everyone has that stuff. How about the people (Id say the vast majority of hunters) who cannot get all that stuff? They should just be swept aside?

    Tell ya what send me 200 gold so I can buy the right bow and melee wep if I can even find one with those legacies for sale and then we will talk. Do not go on about how we are just stupid and do not know how to play because we do not have god-like weapons only a select few can ever attain.

    What happened to we arent traiting right? Did you mean legacies or traits? I can retrait all day long it will not help me parse against a guy who has first age everything with all the perfect traits etc and highest dps available.
    Hope that my parse-post didn't come across as saying all hunters are fine, or that you all need to learn to play. I didn't even say much at all, was just tossing it out there as some more data, albeit not that solid, since I didn't get the time on the fight. But I agree with you. There needs to be a better DPS standard for those hunters with 3rd or even 2nd age bows.
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  11. #136
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faildir View Post
    It was around 8 minutes.

    Then your DPS for that fight was far below what a good Guard can output.. and less than *half* of what a RK can output.
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  12. #137
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth420 View Post
    Ah ok so IF we find the right bow with the right legacies and IF we also have a melee weapon with the proper legacies AND THEN trait right we can almost as DPS as a runekeeper.

    So funny to listen to people tell others how to play like we can just go out find those perfect first age bows lying on the ground. What about the rest of the hunters who do not have 1st age bows with perfect legacies combined with melee weapons with perfect legacies.

    Turbine needs to stop thinking everyone who plays a hunter has 8/6 radiance first age godlike bows and godlike melee 1st age weapons. Not everyone has that stuff. How about the people (Id say the vast majority of hunters) who cannot get all that stuff? They should just be swept aside?

    Tell ya what send me 200 gold so I can buy the right bow and melee wep if I can even find one with those legacies for sale and then we will talk. Do not go on about how we are just stupid and do not know how to play because we do not have god-like weapons only a select few can ever attain.

    What happened to we arent traiting right? Did you mean legacies or traits? I can retrait all day long it will not help me parse against a guy who has first age everything with all the perfect traits etc and highest dps available.
    I don't know what kind of DPS an RK can put out and I don't really care. I am happy with the hunter class as is(ok, fix the ISB animation).

    My xbow that is doing more damage than some of the first age parses here is a third age. Did it take me a while to find it? Yes, I went through about 300 tablets before I ended up buying it from the AH for 3g. My melee weapon? A third age sword. I had a first age spear, I leveld it to 50 then deconned it because the legacies were not what I wanted. Turbine wants the LI system in it's current form or there would have been changes in book 8. You can cry all you want, but in the end, Turbine will make whatever change they feel is the best for their game.

    It's also about not putting points into useless legacies like +barbed arrow bleed damage and + quick shot crit or - evade. I have seen several first age weapons with these legacies maxed out. Instead, spend the points on useful legacies. It is not hard to farm or buy tablets for turn ins.

    BTW, I'm only 6/6, my kin has not yet downed the Watcher, but we are getting closer each week. Everything on my character is available to any level 60 in the game by dedicating time to get the best items you can from the available 6 mans.

    Your problem with the class and the game is in your head.

  13. #138

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by ltr View Post
    I don't know what kind of DPS an RK can put out and I don't really care.
    More than you with less aggro. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by ltr View Post
    Your problem with the class and the game is in your head.
    Sadly, you are dead wrong. It's factual. I can live with it - it doesn't spoil the game. I'm just going to level up an RK.

    BTW I have no problem with the game. I enjoy it a lot.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000001745d1/01003/signature.png]Imyr[/charsig]

  14. #139

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Ok....

    I have a 2nd age cross bow level 59 with tier 5 Focus and induction Crits (Level 8 and 9 I think)
    I have a 2nd age spear level 60 with teir 6 needful haste duration
    I have all the armor but the helm

    Morale runs about 5100, power 2400, ICPR close to 1000

    Class Traits - 1/2/4 (I am a ICPR hog)

    I rarely retrait because I know who to get the most out of this build and if I change it I pull agro to much or run out of power to soon. So that being said...

    My memory (I will have to either reparse or find my parse data) was that I was running about 120k+ on the turtle. It has been a long time since I did a parse so I am not 100% sure.

    So basically...

    You have to have a top 3 bow, with the top two DPS legacies, a top teir melee with a top teir legacy, top teir armor and jewelry (cuffs, studs feather ... I still need good rings) and then you can be a top teir dps class, without all that you are simply 2nd or lower teir.

    Somehow that seems a bit ummmm pathetic for a primary range damage dealer, and the other class that is a primary range damage dealer actually has skills that are useful and useable mid-instance. Where as a hunter, for our supposed secondary role we have to go retrait. Which I guess we can do mid-instance as long as we are bound to the instance or have a Captain along or have the time and a fellowship that is willing to wait for us.

    Yup Hunters are perfectly fine, there are no problems with our skills and abilities, nor with how they compare to other classes in game. We are perfectly useful and there is no reason to avoid a hunter and bring another class at all! And pigs fly...

    Hunter issues need to be reworked and addressed! I do not understand how this is still somehow not just understood and accepted.
    .

    "Live and Let Die"

  15. #140
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aestis25 View Post
    Then your DPS for that fight was far below what a good Guard can output.. and less than *half* of what a RK can output.
    Indeed it was, because I was in endurance stance for half of that fight, possibly even a little over. It has been decided that Endurance Stance was bad and not good at all for dps. Obviously this parse reasserts it and even with my dps for the last ~300k it comes out to horribly low. The whole reason I changed to Strength Stance in the middle of the fight was because of my horrible dps.

    The data should not necessarily be thrown out, because it still supports the buffing of Endurance Stance. I may have 97.5k total damage, but it was coupled with endurance stance so in actuality my dps was not as high.
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  16. #141
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by ltr View Post
    Here's one for you guys. It's a little old (5/21) but still post book 7.

    Raid: turtle
    Weapon: level 59 third age crossbow
    Enrage strat so aggro was never an issue.
    As normal, strength stance most of the time with a small switch(1 minute or so) in the middle of the fight to endurance to conserve a little power. Chugged pots whenever i was down 700 power or the CD was up. No power feed that I know of from an LM.
    Traited 4/0/3



    Given a ~6 minute fight duration, you were putting up roughly ~275 dps in that fight.

    A couple points of comparison:

    - Guards can easily hit the 320-330+ range (Guards with 1st age 2Hs could feasibly get noticeably higher), which would out-DPS your Hunter by a significant margin.

    - Hunters with 1st Ages who don't have to worry about aggro (as you didn't) can hit 340-350+. If they are being fed power constantly by a LRM, this number can reach as high as ~400.

    - Runekeepers with no help from LRMs, and without worry about aggro, can easily hit 425+... even after the power nerf.


    I say all this not to be a jerk, but just pointing out that all your superior knowledge of traits, legacies, etc. that us less knowledgeable hunters obviously don't know has added up to truly inferior DPS when you look at the actual numbers you're putting up.

    Sure, the game is still very playable, I still have fun on my Hunter, and solo we're more than fine. But in groups, our DPS is far below what it should be.

    Let me reiterate, not to be rude whatsoever, but to drive home my point about the state of Hunters:

    My Guard is currently out-DPS'ing your strength stanced Hunter in long fights.


    I welcome further parses, especially now that the Enrage strat doesn't work and aggro is a factor in turtle runs.
    Last edited by Aestis25; Jul 02 2009 at 06:30 PM.
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  17. #142

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Will Parse tonight as I am curious now.
    .

    "Live and Let Die"

  18. #143
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    I would just like to inject that, I just did the turtle... with what appeared to be good players... in endurance I was able to do 113,904 total damage to the turtle, and CStats tells me I did it at 303.3 DPS.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0120300000008686e/01006/signature.png]Dreweth[/charsig]

  19. #144

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    What bow do you have?
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  20. #145
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeger_Wulf View Post
    What bow do you have?
    Level 59 Second Age Crossbow.

    I just ran the fight again on my RK, and I did 95K damage at 255 DPS. Granted, I healed a little bit towards the end, and had terrible power issues. My RK isn't as well geared as my hunter.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0120300000008686e/01006/signature.png]Dreweth[/charsig]

  21. #146
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew_th View Post
    Level 59 Second Age Crossbow.

    I just ran the fight again on my RK, and I did 95K damage at 255 DPS. Granted, I healed a little bit towards the end, and had terrible power issues. My RK isn't as well geared as my hunter.
    We are talking comparing apples to apples. If you take a gimped RK ya then you will do less damage. The fact you could even heal and do damn near the same DPS as a hunter just proves our point even more. A non-geared non-traited RK can almost do as much DPS as a fully equipped maxxed out everything hunter PLUS you can heal at the same time.

    I for one am not asking for any RK nerfs I just think they went WAY too far nerfing hunters and need to adjust us somewhat. Ive had an idea about reducing the threat we generate others have had equally good ideas which do not mean just up our dps and that is it. We should be able to do the same amount of DPS as a RK and generate the same amount of threat.

    Right now we do less damage and generate more threat. We cannot heal or res so why even bring a hunter unless noone else is available?

  22. #147
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth420 View Post
    We are talking comparing apples to apples. If you take a gimped RK ya then you will do less damage.

    Right now we do less damage and generate more threat. We cannot heal or res so why even bring a hunter unless noone else is available?
    My RK is by no means gimped. 4/6 Radiance, two diamond studs, two dawn rose ring of tactics, second age bag, really good third age stone.

    And by healing I mean throwing my stone down and applying prelude to hope to people.

    I will agree with the threat bit though, I pulled agro with my hunter in ENDURANCE during that last turtle fight.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0120300000008686e/01006/signature.png]Dreweth[/charsig]

  23. #148
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew_th View Post
    My RK is by no means gimped. 4/6 Radiance, two diamond studs, two dawn rose ring of tactics, second age bag, really good third age stone.

    And by healing I mean throwing my stone down and applying prelude to hope to people.

    I will agree with the threat bit though, I pulled agro with my hunter in ENDURANCE during that last turtle fight.
    I was just going by what you said. You said you would have done more damage but you had to stop to heal and that your RK was not geared out. Yet you did almost as much damage as a totally geared out maxxed everything hunter. Imagine when you get everything maxxed out on the RK. Make hunter DPS look pitiful in comparison.

    Some of that pulling agro in anything but str stance is the guard or champ doesnt have a clue what he is doing I'd bet. I still think that in str stance we pull way too much agro and use way too much power for the little DPS we do now that we got nerf batted into uselessness.

  24. #149
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    I posted in the RK forum asking for post bk8 turtle parses.

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=277364

  25. #150
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew_th View Post
    Level 59 Second Age Crossbow.

    I just ran the fight again on my RK, and I did 95K damage at 255 DPS. Granted, I healed a little bit towards the end, and had terrible power issues. My RK isn't as well geared as my hunter.

    If you're doing 255 DPS on your RK, then you need to seriously re-examine your skill rotation.

    On the other hand, 303 DPS is solid for an Endurance stanced Hunter. You're still getting out-DPS'd significantly by many Guards & Champs, but compared to other Endurance Hunters 303 isn't bad.
    Last edited by Aestis25; Jul 02 2009 at 08:54 PM.
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