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  1. #76
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by undii View Post
    Hi, I'm just at a loss to finding out how much damage I actually did in a fight? Sorry if something obvious has flown over me but I cannot for the life of me find anywhere to 'turn on' a feature to show me damage done total in a fight? If this actually can be done, could someone please be kind enough to show me. Not at my gaming PC so I can't log in to double double check but when I log tomorrow, hopefully I will know how to parse damage done in fights, I'm itching to know what I do in group fights (as I am definitely doing what seems to be like 20-40% damage than I was doing last week simply due to better gear and a MUCH better LI bow I have).


    Thank you :0
    LOTRO does not have a damage meter. People turn on chat logging for their combat tab and use a program such as Cstats to parse (convert) that log into a dps summary.

  2. #77
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by kerryak View Post
    Yeah, b/c hunters can't gear/trait for power or slam pots either.

    Insightful!
    Doesn't matter when you have to run with S:S to be even close to competitive, which of course increases your power cost.


    And no, you can't gear for power like a RK can. 1200 icpr, plus double pots every 2 minutes. [trait]Bow of the Righteous[/trait] or [trait]Deep Concentration[/trait] won't even get you close. You'll have to lose tons of agility on your bracelets to get your ICPR near 1k.


    Stop spreading misinformation.

  3. #78

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurindras View Post
    Doesn't matter when you have to run with S:S to be even close to competitive, which of course increases your power cost.


    And no, you can't gear for power like a RK can. 1200 icpr, plus double pots every 2 minutes. [trait]Bow of the Righteous[/trait] or [trait]Deep Concentration[/trait] won't even get you close. You'll have to lose tons of agility on your bracelets to get your ICPR near 1k.


    Stop spreading misinformation.
    I run at 961 ICPR with over 550 Agility in my group gear before any buffs are applied. Why would you lose tons of Agility on your bracelets when there's Charm Bracelets and [Peerless] Turtle Shell Bracelets at your disposal?
    [LEFT][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen][B]7 Level 65s: Champ, Hunter, Guardian, Captain, RK, LM, Burglar[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
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    [/LEFT]

  4. #79

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurindras View Post
    Doesn't matter when you have to run with S:S to be even close to competitive, which of course increases your power cost.


    And no, you can't gear for power like a RK can. 1200 icpr, plus double pots every 2 minutes. [trait]Bow of the Righteous[/trait] or [trait]Deep Concentration[/trait] won't even get you close. You'll have to lose tons of agility on your bracelets to get your ICPR near 1k.


    Stop spreading misinformation.
    http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Item:Charm_Bracelet
    Looks like you have some faulty information there.

  5. #80
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Ok, but you still lose tons of morale. My point is that for hunters specifically to stack ICPR they have to give up *something* whereas there are a lot more items that are geared for everything tactical casters need.


    The original point I made was that hunters are much more likely to need power in the middle of a boss fight, which is part of the problem that hunters are no longer a top tier DPS class. It would be a much different case if hunters could sustain their damage (300-350 dps) through a 5-7 minute boss fight without needing (much) power from a LM. However, regardless of how hard a hunter can hit in the short term, their throughput is currently severely hampered because of how S:S and S:E are currently implemented.

  6. #81

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurindras View Post
    The original point I made was that hunters are much more likely to need power in the middle of a boss fight, which is part of the problem that hunters are no longer a top tier DPS class.
    ..
    their throughput is currently severely hampered because of how S:S and S:E are currently implemented.
    In addition to the power limitation that you note, hunters are also limited by aggro. To hit their top DPS puts aggro soaring through the roof with very limited ways to shed it.

  7. #82
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurindras View Post
    Ok, but you still lose tons of morale. My point is that for hunters specifically to stack ICPR they have to give up *something* whereas there are a lot more items that are geared for everything tactical casters need.


    The original point I made was that hunters are much more likely to need power in the middle of a boss fight, which is part of the problem that hunters are no longer a top tier DPS class. It would be a much different case if hunters could sustain their damage (300-350 dps) through a 5-7 minute boss fight without needing (much) power from a LM. However, regardless of how hard a hunter can hit in the short term, their throughput is currently severely hampered because of how S:S and S:E are currently implemented.
    Every class has to give something up to slot for ICPR. RKs have to give up just as much morale as hunters do. Morale is just as important to RKs.

    I do see a point that slotting for Fate directly helps an RKs damage and ICPR. However, Fate now plays a much small role in tactical rating tha it used, but it does add to both tactical rating and ICPR.

    I don't agree that it is easier for tactical classes to gear than it is for hunters or any other class. Agility much more directly affects a hunters damage output than Fate does any tactical class. Agility affects the direct damage and critical rating, while Fate affects the critical rating only. Comparing how easy it is for different classes to effectively gear out is very subjective.

  8. #83

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Item:...shell_Bracelet

    Two of those = agil + ICPR + some....

    You don't give up much by switching to those.

    I currently run at 989 ICPR (which still isn't enough for me in S:S with 3/0/4, IF I go all out, even when buffed up to 1430 ICPR).

  9. #84
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth420 View Post
    Just wanted to say spot on OP with your observations. I have been saying this ever since book 7 came out that even guards can out DPS hunters. It is very hard for a hunter to find a group because why bring a hunter? A rk does far more dps and if needed can switch to healing. A guard doesnt suck power or heals and can out DPS us. A minstrel in warspeech also can out DPS us and can heal/res etc. A LM has emminently better CC so you wouldnt bring a hunter for CC. Burgs/capts can do almost as much dps plus all the buffs (or debuffs for the burg).

    So tell me anyone why bring a hunter in ANY situation? Why would want some 1 trick pony who cannot even do his one trick right? The only time I am able to find groups now with my hunter is in a freind's kin group or if they just needed a port. Turbine is silent on this and believes rather than making the classes fun to play we should make them all suck equally that way noone can complain.

    How did hunters go from being so fun to play to noone wanting to play them overnight? Now everyone is a RK who had a hunter. Meanwhile people like me who have one character only and that is a hunter gets the shaft. Meanwhile the developers are busy changing cloak designs because we all know thats WAY more important than fixing hunters.

    So frustrating I paid for this game beta tested it for over a year before it came out and I am forced to go play another game or roll a rune keeper if I want to continue playing this one. Nothing but dead silence from this "systems team" whoever they are. Great job turbine.
    if a guard is out damaging your hunter, your hunter sucks

  10. #85

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    > if a guard is out damaging your hunter, your hunter sucks

    That is not true. It just means the hunter has a 3rd or 2nd age bow.

  11. #86
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waylen View Post
    if a guard is out damaging your hunter, your hunter sucks
    Well obviously you couldnt be bothered to read the thread so I do not know why I am bothering to respond to you. Go back and read the numbers again then tell me how my hunter is doing more damage than a guardian. I mean if you cannot even be bothered to read the thread why should anyone bother taking you seriously?

  12. #87
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    The original point I made was that hunters are much more likely to need power in the middle of a boss fight, which is part of the problem that hunters are no longer a top tier DPS class. It would be a much different case if hunters could sustain their damage (300-350 dps) through a 5-7 minute boss fight without needing (much) power from a LM. However, regardless of how hard a hunter can hit in the short term, their throughput is currently severely hampered because of how S:S and S:E are currently implemented.
    Actually, I don't know what your original point was. Perhaps you applied my contextual discussion of BK7 enrage-strat turtle fire-spec RKs going all-out for max DPS vs a S:S hunter going all-out for max DPS and applied it to everyday instances. I'm not talking about some instance boss, I'm talking theoretical maximum dmg.

    Pre BK7 enrage-strat turtle was probably the best way of determining what dmg both jobs are capable of w/o worrying about agro and power.

    If an RK w/ higher ICPR is blowing a larger power pool and doing more damage, obviously they're consuming more total power. (My original comment: so obviously the LM is giving them more to keep that going.)

    If BK8 power costs go up (they did) then they'd consequently require even more LM attention under these conditions. (My original comment Pt 2.)

    You can argue gearing a semantics about average gear, max gear, statwise, and w/e all you want, but full-bore crazy-*** DPS on a huge morale pool target that's enraged and attacking randomly is the best way of determining what the maximum dmg output of a class since you're eliminating the threat variable. Throw pocket LMs in the mix, and you're eliminating power costs, as well.

    And RK won under these conditions, and handily.
    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
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  13. #88
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowed_Chaos View Post
    http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Item:...shell_Bracelet

    Two of those = agil + ICPR + some....

    You don't give up much by switching to those.

    I currently run at 989 ICPR (which still isn't enough for me in S:S with 3/0/4, IF I go all out, even when buffed up to 1430 ICPR).
    Too bad you can't get the shells for them any more.

  14. #89
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by kerryak View Post
    Actually, I don't know what your original point was. Perhaps you applied my contextual discussion of BK7 enrage-strat turtle fire-spec RKs going all-out for max DPS vs a S:S hunter going all-out for max DPS and applied it to everyday instances. I'm not talking about some instance boss, I'm talking theoretical maximum dmg.

    Pre BK7 enrage-strat turtle was probably the best way of determining what dmg both jobs are capable of w/o worrying about agro and power.

    If an RK w/ higher ICPR is blowing a larger power pool and doing more damage, obviously they're consuming more total power. (My original comment: so obviously the LM is giving them more to keep that going.)

    If BK8 power costs go up (they did) then they'd consequently require even more LM attention under these conditions. (My original comment Pt 2.)

    You can argue gearing a semantics about average gear, max gear, statwise, and w/e all you want, but full-bore crazy-*** DPS on a huge morale pool target that's enraged and attacking randomly is the best way of determining what the maximum dmg output of a class since you're eliminating the threat variable. Throw pocket LMs in the mix, and you're eliminating power costs, as well.

    And RK won under these conditions, and handily.

    In those original numbers, I was the RK. I was fed no power at all and used no power pots. The hunter was constantly being fed and using everything he could for power. The hunter is also using excellent gear. This means that on my own (my gear, my traits, my rotations etc) I did significantly more damage than a supposed "single target" dps class did with a near infinite power supply.


    In my view, the "contextual" bk7 enrage strat is as close to a theoretical maximum as you're going to get.


    I understand your point about icpr/pool and receiving power, but what you're wrong in realizing is that it doesn't matter. If I can sustain this damage without a LMs help, this is infinitely better than someone who depends on the LM power battery to continue DPS.


    Bottom line, the nerfs in book 7 made a huge dent in the amount of [max] damage a hunter can put out in a sustained fight.

  15. #90

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by atteSmythe View Post
    Too bad you can't get the shells for them any more.
    You still can

  16. #91
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    I've downloaded the tools to parse the DPS and I am very interested to see what I find. I've always wondered how I am contributing in groups where tank n' spank is the strategy.

    From purely a perceptive stance... I've not noticed the hunter getting weaker, I've noticed everyone else getting stronger. The emphasis from some is the RK. I'm rolling a minstrel alt right now and things are easy... too easy. I'm blasting things to bits before they get to me and I can heal, remove effects of defeat, buff, and rez as a minstrel (I think I've even got a stun or 2). I'm not complaining, it's fun.

    But, I believe it will be short lived. I see tons of minstrel alts leveling up. I believe something will occur to attempt to strike balance in the near future. I don't think jumping ship and rolling new toons every time a new DPS king is found will help the game. Games like this are self healing over time. The fellowship needs balance. Hunters were too many and they found a solution. When another class gets outplayed, they will try to resolve that as well. (my bet is the mini gets the next major change)

    The problem, as I see it, is that LOTRO caters ALSO to solo players. To make each class appropriately (i.e. healers only heal, guards only block, hunters only range, etc.) it would be really difficult, hence un-fun, for a large number of the player base to solo. So everyone has to DPS or you'll never get anywhere. I guess with that in mind, if everyone can DPS, what do hunters bring to the group? Traps, in my opinion, bring about too great a penalty to consider effectively. Poison control is too rare of an issue to play a large part of a fellowship. Porting is great, but only helps when the fight is completely over and not worth a slot at all for the actual fight. Tracking is useful 1 - 5% of the time when searching for a quested mob or shard dropper. Try dropping a campfire in a raid and the group is gone before the thing hits the floor. The hunter is a neat utility class, but none of it really adds to a fellowship like the other classes can. We can't bring that 'neato' in to give an edge. So from my understanding, the DPS was our gimmick and now it's gone. I'm OK with that if it's needed to make the rest of the classes playable and balanced, but then give something else that makes the class needed and desirable for groups. No class should be shunned from any instance. If that happens, then I think something went unintentionally wrong and it needs to be corrected.

    This is just my nickel's worth. I do think things will be addressed with patience and constructive feedback. I will forever keep my hunter and I think someday soon he will see a place for his skills.
    Last edited by hucklebarry; Jun 30 2009 at 01:42 PM.

  17. #92
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialdemons View Post
    You still can
    Then the quest continues!

  18. #93
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Now, however, it is book 8. Runekeepers apparently suck up much more power than before (I do not play a runekeeper, so I am speaking from what I hear).


    You can also no longer enrage the Turtle to generate a similar scenario as in the original post. This can actually be used advantageously:

    You can, theoretically, see which class can generate more damage while controlling agro and upholding their power.


    Hunters also have tools for power in their arsenal, it just depends on the build you have with traits:

    -Improved Strength of the Earth
    -------(You do not need to stay in it for 60 seconds: 10 seconds gives you 440 power on top of ICPR, which varies from character to character)
    -Intent Concentration traited for power
    -------(another 450 power, and with gear and trait is 1 minute 30 second cooldown)
    -Power pots
    -------(Self-explanatory)
    -Raw ICPR
    -------(It depends on your build. Some hunters have 600 ICPR, some have over 1k ICPR. However, it is possible to keep your morale above 5k and even higher, keep power at a reasonable height of 2.4+, and agility well above 500 with additional stats all around.)

    You may argue that SotE takes you out of the fight for 10 seconds, however pull that off, then intent concentration and you have almost 900 power right there. Then ICPR comes in (I am currently sitting on 881, and it might go up and down with DN gear), which for me would give me 146 more power in that time, but for general hunters, would be more around 95-110. That is over 1k power, not even counting a power pot yet.

    1k power and continue dps'ing > auto-attacking for those 10 seconds waiting for power to regen


    *TooT TooT*
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  19. #94

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    The real problem still exists though: Hunters cannot put out the kind of damage a RK can without being in S:Strength...but S:S makes threat unmanageable. It's designed to be a short term, burst damage stance in a group thanks to the huge percieved threat penalty. RKs, on the other hand, are not limited by such constraints. They also have chisels (OMG, wtb one for my class) and class traits that enhance damage across the board without tacking on threat penalties.

    Power isn't the real problem, not when a well built Hunter can shoot indefinitely in S:Endurance. Threat is the real problem. Even if you knock 10% off the RKs DPS in this thread due to more constraining power costs you're still looking at ~415DPS generated at a threat level that sits somewhere between S:Precision and S:Endurance (depending on RK traits). Their active threat reducing skill is also on a shorter timer (1min vs. 5min) to let them push harder. I want to see the Hunter that can put out over 400 DPS in S:Precision or S:Endurance....

    I've been saying this on and off since Book 7 hit live. Damage output isn't the main problem, it's how that damage is generated that's the real problem with our class. It always has been too, we've just been able to ignore it so long as there was no single target analogue to our class. Unfortunately far too many people look at Library of Steel parses or big numbers in PvP where threat is of absolutely zero interest and declare things good.
    [LEFT][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen][B]7 Level 65s: Champ, Hunter, Guardian, Captain, RK, LM, Burglar[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
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  20. #95
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken View Post
    Unfortunately far too many people look at Library of Steel parses or big numbers in PvP where threat is of absolutely zero interest and declare things good.
    Ive been saying this for months. Why do the devs base nerfs of our class on PVMP numbers instead of looking the whole picture. Solo yes we are ok there is no threat to manage. In groups we are useless almost we do less damage and bring less to the table than any other class out there. The only thing hunters have anymore is rain of thorns for the crafting hall.

    Other than that hunters have been serverly hobbled in groups.

  21. #96
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken View Post
    Unfortunately far too many people look at Library of Steel parses or big numbers in PvP where threat is of absolutely zero interest and declare things good.
    ^ this!

    I've been saying the same damn thing since RK have been arguing that hunters do more DPS than they do. Yea, they do it in a solo situation in a stance that is not viable for group play! whoopity do! It doesn't make sense and no one could ever really argue AGAINST that because its the truth. Strength is only good in group situations to some degree but power costs and threat generation make it not a good option in most cases. Rk on the other hand have no penalties. Although I have to admit, I chuckle a little bit when a RK dies from getting too much hate...

    I disagree that the numbers were nerfed for PvMP Gareth. Damage output was over the top in book 6 in PvE and PvMp. I knew this but I also wasn't expecting the nerf that hunters got to be so large. (Well I didn't WANT to expect it but since I know how turbine is with hunters....)

    They either need to make it so the hunters strength stance is more viable in group situations or make endurance stance output more damage. I don't want book 6 numbers but I want better than an endurance hunter does currently. I don't care to see the RK nerfed and neither should any other hunters. As hunters, we know how it feels...
    [CENTER][SIZE=3][COLOR=#00ff00][FONT=comic sans ms][B]Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans[/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
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  22. #97
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    PvE or PvMP, hunter numbers were huge and needed a nerf no doubt about that.


    However the IA weapon nerf should have been tested thoroughly before more tweaks were made with Hunters individually.



    Definitely some top notch posts here.

  23. #98
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    They could just cut the threat in str stance by 50%. Thing is in a group we simply cannot run in str stance. We will either run out of power or have some very irate tanks yelling at us. I dont know that they will try and fix anything. Seems all efforts right now are focused on pvmp and making RKs more balanced. I do not see them tossing hunters a bone for a long time.

  24. #99
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth420 View Post
    They could just cut the threat in str stance by 50%. Thing is in a group we simply cannot run in str stance. We will either run out of power or have some very irate tanks yelling at us. I dont know that they will try and fix anything. Seems all efforts right now are focused on pvmp and making RKs more balanced. I do not see them tossing hunters a bone for a long time.
    learning how to manage aggro is part of the hunter experience. Cutting threat by 50% takes away alot of the challange. Hunters are already called the noob class. Why not take away all hunters abilities and replace it with one and name it the "i win" button.

    Seriously i run in str the vast majority of time and there are plenty of ways to manage your aggro. Here's a tip if you get un wanted aggro hit beneath notice then drop down into endurance. Then quickshot several times and drop back into str. But shhh don't tell anyone I would hate to give anyone the impression that hunters take skill to play well.

  25. #100

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waylen View Post
    learning how to manage aggro is part of the hunter experience. Cutting threat by 50% takes away alot of the challange. Hunters are already called the noob class. Why not take away all hunters abilities and replace it with one and name it the "i win" button.

    Seriously i run in str the vast majority of time and there are plenty of ways to manage your aggro. Here's a tip if you get un wanted aggro hit beneath notice then drop down into endurance. Then quickshot several times and drop back into str. But shhh don't tell anyone I would hate to give anyone the impression that hunters take skill to play well.
    If I follow my rotation flawlessly, I will take aggro in Precision Stance. There is simply no way a geared out hunter can manage his threat to a respectable level, even with Beneath Notice in Strength Stance and reliably do damage at the same time.

 

 
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