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  1. #51
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faildir View Post
    I just dont think I agree with this. I obviously do not have the numbers to back it up, but I do not think that my dps goes so far below a guardian when in endurance.

    Given your numbers, it might be a reasonable extrapolation. However, in endurance stance (as opposed to strength), we sustain our dps arguably far longer than in strength and do not sit there auto-attacking waiting for that power pot to come off cooldown. Now do realize that I could be absolutely totally wrong (it is human nature and I may have jumbled somethings up in my head, been happening alot lately), but that is somewhat the way I see it.


    Do not get me wrong though, I agree that hunter dps is sub-par at this point. In fact, I agree with almost all of your post (I read all of it but may have forgotten anything I did not agree with ). That is just my take on that one and only main issue I had with your post.

    I would welcome more parses, from you & anyone. Be it in full Strength, partial Strength, Endurance, with 1st/2nd/3rd ages, great gear, average gear; everyone's parses are helpful data.

    The more hard stats we have, the more Turbine will listen. Yes, I hear the negativity that they don't read the forums, etc. And that may be true. My experience in closed Beta was different. I had legitimate back-and-forth discourse with DangerDan about tweaking the class, even receiving forum PM's from him regarding my input. So, while I don't believe he's in charge of our class anymore, I will continue to hope for the best.

    One note re: Endurance vs Strength. You're right, Faldir, that without the aid of a LRM, you can't sustain in Strength dps'ing all-out like you can in Endurance. Unfortunately, in the parses I listed from various Hunters, we were getting fed power from a LRM and weren't sitting there auto-attacking.

    As I noted at the bottom, the 97k (340 dps) was toward the lower end of the range I'm seeing from Hunters in 3 bowmaster (which is ~340 to ~385), which is why the conclusion is not that Hunters = Guardians in full Strength stance w/ a 1st age bow. In fact, a Hunter with a 1st age bow who can be fed power nonstop and not worry about aggro is a bona fide tier 1 DPS'er. With 4 Bowmaster, the typical range I'm seeing is closer to ~370-420. Which is significantly higher than a Guard with a 2nd age Great Hammer (but until I get a 1st age on my Guard, hard to compare the "max" apples to other "max" apples, so to speak).

    It is also important to note that, in my scenario, I was only comparing to the Hunter with the 1st Age bow (it was Kansas for any who know him). The other 2 Hunters in the group were almost certainly behind in the DPS race, although it's impossible to know how far.

    Exactly how things stack up down to a percentage point, it's hard to know without extensive data we don't have. But I feel extremely confident in my assessment so far that between characters with comparable gear, a Guardian will out-DPS an Endurance Hunter; a Champion will significantly out-DPS an Endurance Hunter; and a Runekeeper will blow an Endurance Hunter out of the water entirely.
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  2. #52
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    Re: This is the best post I have read in the past 3 months.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayrolen View Post
    Aestis takes the time to write a well thought out post in a constructive manner and people like you come in here dripping with disdain, honestly believing that Turbine doesn't give a damn about the Hunter class. If you really, truly believe that, then by all means, quit. Please.
    If Book 7 and Book 8 are any indications, it is true...Turbine doesn't give a d*mn about the Hunter class, and it's a shame because it is my favorite class to play.

    I know your post was directed at someone else, but I share his sentiments. Sorry, but I'm a Lifetime and can't quit. However, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will be gonzo from the Turbine failboat as soon as another quality MMO comes out...say, The Old Republic for instance...
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  3. #53
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayrolen View Post
    And we all know Firefighters is full of egotistical jerks anyway.

    We kind of are, but you all love us anyway!!!
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  4. #54

    Re: This is the best post I have read in the past 3 months.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayrolen View Post
    by all means, quit. Please.
    Be careful what you wish for, that's what I'm doing and others will too.(Aion is better anyway) MMOs aren't very fun without the 'MM' part and LotRO currently lacks an overabundance of players.

    It's really too bad though because LotRO does/did have a lot of potential. ='(


    Anyway, kudos to the OP for putting it so well and straight forward. For the sake of all those who decide to stay, I hope turbine listens to this problem and finally addresses it correctly.

  5. #55

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    I wish to thank the Original poster for the well thought out and nicely presented case . I'm one of those silly hunters however that tends to use precsion stance over strength stance . maybe it's luck of the draw , but I've found with strength stance I may hit pretty hard ...I also miss alot too. Where as in precsion stance I may hit for less damage per shot . I am however hitting more consistantly So to me that would seem to balance out on dps . I do agree that endurance stance is our class death nail for dps . While in endurance stance I've noticed my dps drops down to what you'd expect off a sword an board gaurdian poking the heck outa a mob for an hour before it falls over dead ...Which for the hunter is completly unacceptable .

    Could someone do a comparison of number crunching for all the stances ? Maybe turbine can see why so many people find hunter as a class completly under whelming with dps vs other classes hehe .

  6. #56
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    I understand that the creatures wanted to promote the expansion by showing off the Rune-keeper and the Warden classes. Thats fine. But when they said they spent alot of time figuring out a game balance for the classes to fit into the fold of the new ones they completely overshot things.

    When MoM first came out the Hunter became the God of Single Target DPS. To which we all rejoiced over and didnt complain about since after all we finally had the DPS we totally wanted. To in turn spwned a bajillion little Hunters rocking out Easy Mode of the game.

    So in turn they cut the DPS from all classes on 1 fold but on Hunters 2 fold. So now we deal less than the other classes vs our original slated position of Single Target.

    Now the Tactical Classes are becoming the focus of the game. To play a LM/RKer/Mini is what everyone wants to play since most of the enemies do not have high Tactical Resistence just high Melee and Ranged. So these Healer/Supports are now turning into focuses monsters of death.

    Hell we took down a 40k Flake Dropper last night with 3 LMs. The damn guy couldnt do anything to use practically as we were able to heal the tank LM and dish out tons of damage on him in a decent pace with 3 Lynxs attached to his toe.

    Someone on Nimrodel asked me for proof on why I go with what someone said about the SW:G guys they hired who are ruining the game. Well. How much more proof do I need to go with this guys theory? Look at what happened to LOTRO on the release of MoM!

    I loved the Expansion for the added content. Sure some of the content could be worked on but Im not going to complain about it as a whole. Which is what keeps me in the game other than my Kinmates. But the class issues of balance to the game and to each other are so out of wack right now that Im only praying the Turbine Crew doesnt decide to add even 1 more class into the mix in the next expansion.

    I mean seriouslly. What more do we need right now? Another Magic Using class to piss off the gamers who follow Lore? Another Class to be a dual class and oust an old class in its job yet again?

    Hell the Warden is actually the better of the two in addition to the game. Adds nice flavor to the game and plays a perfect OFF TANK as the creators said it would be. The RKer is another flavor that I think should be cut down on damage vs Single Targets and let the Hunter go back to what he did best in SoA
    Pariah Amistacia - Nimrodel - Leader of the Devils of Angmar

  7. #57

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Whew! 'Just read this entire thread plus the FoS Pulpum thread that SB linked in. Overall it makes me sad - but there is hope that illustration will lead to clarity and resolution on Turbine's part.

    Great job to all who posted data and insight. Especially thanks to aestis25 for the OP. Your data matches up with what some others have elsewhere measured and most of us have perceived everywhere.

    I concur with much of your conclusions (especially in that Turbine needs to make up their mind whether we are meant to use S:Strength in groups or not) except the postulated goal of Hunters needing to be around 95% of a similarly geared RK for single target group dps. On that, I concur completely with Dom12's points.

    And Pariah - as usual, you pretty much sum up everything perfectly. 'See ya on Nim!
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  8. #58
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aestis25 View Post
    I would welcome more parses, from you & anyone. Be it in full Strength, partial Strength, Endurance, with 1st/2nd/3rd ages, great gear, average gear; everyone's parses are helpful data.

    The more hard stats we have, the more Turbine will listen. Yes, I hear the negativity that they don't read the forums, etc. And that may be true. My experience in closed Beta was different. I had legitimate back-and-forth discourse with DangerDan about tweaking the class, even receiving forum PM's from him regarding my input. So, while I don't believe he's in charge of our class anymore, I will continue to hope for the best.

    One note re: Endurance vs Strength. You're right, Faldir, that without the aid of a LRM, you can't sustain in Strength dps'ing all-out like you can in Endurance. Unfortunately, in the parses I listed from various Hunters, we were getting fed power from a LRM and weren't sitting there auto-attacking.

    As I noted at the bottom, the 97k (340 dps) was toward the lower end of the range I'm seeing from Hunters in 3 bowmaster (which is ~340 to ~385), which is why the conclusion is not that Hunters = Guardians in full Strength stance w/ a 1st age bow. In fact, a Hunter with a 1st age bow who can be fed power nonstop and not worry about aggro is a bona fide tier 1 DPS'er. With 4 Bowmaster, the typical range I'm seeing is closer to ~370-420. Which is significantly higher than a Guard with a 2nd age Great Hammer (but until I get a 1st age on my Guard, hard to compare the "max" apples to other "max" apples, so to speak).

    It is also important to note that, in my scenario, I was only comparing to the Hunter with the 1st Age bow (it was Kansas for any who know him). The other 2 Hunters in the group were almost certainly behind in the DPS race, although it's impossible to know how far.

    Exactly how things stack up down to a percentage point, it's hard to know without extensive data we don't have. But I feel extremely confident in my assessment so far that between characters with comparable gear, a Guardian will out-DPS an Endurance Hunter; a Champion will significantly out-DPS an Endurance Hunter; and a Runekeeper will blow an Endurance Hunter out of the water entirely.
    Ah see I did not know they were constantly fed power before running out. Since that is the case, then I agree that it is surprising how close the dps came out at the end of the fight.

    I will try to parse some when I get back from vacation for comparison's and argument's sake for Turbine. I think the devs do read the forums but they simply do not know what to do with the hunter at this point. We provide suggestions but idk what is wrong.

    I agree with your point on Hunter <> Guard and all that follow that point.

    Kansas is a good hunter, so I know that he was going full on dps (if that makes sense haha).

    Guardian will out-DPS an Endurance Hunter; a Champion will significantly out-DPS an Endurance Hunter; and a Runekeeper will blow an Endurance Hunter out of the water entirely.
    I would still like to see a parse of an Endurance Hunter with a First/Second Age with max dps (I think we all can agree that Third-Ages are pretty bad in dps). Champ will definately out-dps Endurance Hunter, and Runekeeper as well.
    [CENTER][COLOR=Sienna][COLOR=DarkGreen]| [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/faldir/"]Faldir[/URL] -.- 65 Huntah -.-[/COLOR] [COLOR=Olive]Officer of Misadventurers[/COLOR] [COLOR=YellowGreen]-.- Elendilmir |[/COLOR][/COLOR]
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  9. #59
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faildir View Post
    I think the devs do read the forums but they simply do not know what to do with the hunter at this point.
    That's kinda what I'm thinking at this point. Everyone's too concerned with Hunters being OP again and other classes getting their panties in a wad, so they don't know what to do to give us a middle ground. Class balancing is a never-ending battle, it seems. I just have to hope that threads like this one (minus a few of the wah wah QQers) help them make some good decisions on where to go from here.
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  10. #60

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Nope, delete your hunters, they are incapable of being usefull in a fight, roll a RK, much better, more DPS, can heal your groups...your hunters can't do anything that ANY other class can't do better and with more survivability.


    Do yourselves a favor, delete your hunters and roll another toon.
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  11. #61
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Just wanted to say spot on OP with your observations. I have been saying this ever since book 7 came out that even guards can out DPS hunters. It is very hard for a hunter to find a group because why bring a hunter? A rk does far more dps and if needed can switch to healing. A guard doesnt suck power or heals and can out DPS us. A minstrel in warspeech also can out DPS us and can heal/res etc. A LM has emminently better CC so you wouldnt bring a hunter for CC. Burgs/capts can do almost as much dps plus all the buffs (or debuffs for the burg).

    So tell me anyone why bring a hunter in ANY situation? Why would want some 1 trick pony who cannot even do his one trick right? The only time I am able to find groups now with my hunter is in a freind's kin group or if they just needed a port. Turbine is silent on this and believes rather than making the classes fun to play we should make them all suck equally that way noone can complain.

    How did hunters go from being so fun to play to noone wanting to play them overnight? Now everyone is a RK who had a hunter. Meanwhile people like me who have one character only and that is a hunter gets the shaft. Meanwhile the developers are busy changing cloak designs because we all know thats WAY more important than fixing hunters.

    So frustrating I paid for this game beta tested it for over a year before it came out and I am forced to go play another game or roll a rune keeper if I want to continue playing this one. Nothing but dead silence from this "systems team" whoever they are. Great job turbine.

  12. #62

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    > Do yourselves a favor, delete your hunters and roll another toon.

    Whether serious or sarcastic, you're missing the mark.

    No one here is panicing, and there is no need to delete your hunter - just roll up an RK. As you said, they are much more useful.

    I'll be getting a 1st age bow soon, and that should close the gap a little, but I will still be an aggro magnet compared to the RK.

    > I am forced to go play another game or roll a rune keeper if I want to continue playing this one.

    Gareth, I feel your pain. Honestly, though, rolling up an RK isn't that tough and is kind of fun. Give it a try while you see if they fix your hunter.
    Last edited by Jeger_Wulf; Jun 25 2009 at 05:51 PM.
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  13. #63

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by laughterkillsme View Post
    What was the hunter's trait set up, what was his rotation, so that I can put this into perspective.
    Again, this thread means absolutely nothing without this information.
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  14. #64

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    > Again, this thread means absolutely nothing without this information.

    Not true. It's in line with what I see with my rotation and traits. If it is different from what you see, then post your own parse. If you achieve higher numbers, we can discuss traits etc - we'd all be glad to learn from you.

    If you achieve the same numbers, then you can apologize to the OP. :P
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  15. #65
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Excellent post, OP! I do not have the time to run numbers like you have done so I very much appreciate the time. Yes, there will be variations to a certain degree but this is validating what many of us have been saying since book 7.

    As for the options... my hunter's been collecting dust since about 3 days after our massive nerfing. I started playing my guardian again and I rolled up a RK as well. However, my wife is grateful for the change because my play time has gone from 20+ hours a week to about 4. Really struggling to find something to bring me to even log in at this point which really sucks.

    So, once again here's my one finger salute to the group of Turbine folks that allowed that bag of poop to be tossed out on the live servers. I'd show my displeasure by canceling a subscription but I was brilliant enough to buy a life time subscription with my founders account.



    -E
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  16. #66
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Rock on OP, excellent post.

    My hunter is still my favorite class to play. But i solo mostly with her...my Rk seems to fill group roles far easier. Hoping this will change as Turbine makes more positive adjustements to the class. so i'd say when it comes to groups, I tend to get an 'okay well invite you' with my hunter. With my Rk i get a "rock on, we got our healer/RK!' doesnt diminish my enjoyment of her solo, but makes me a little sad faced when i think about instance runs.

    Question:
    Now that Book 8 is out, does anyone (including the OP) have new data to show comparisons? i'm particularly interested in the difference the changes have made with RK's. not that we should want to do a class/class comparison, but with the Rk standing out as the poster child for hunters, did the changes turbine made bring those numbers closer together? Did the combination of reduction of damage LI's, increase in tactical resistance, and adjustments to skills/power useage make any noticeable impact in the same given situation in the OP's message?

    inquiring minds want to know
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  17. #67
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Cant say Ive even touched my RKer since I started Book 8. Ive mostly been on my Hunter and Minstrel for my Kinmates.

    Though alot of RKs have been complaining they cant spam out the Fire Attacks as much anymore due to increase in power ./shrug
    Havnt heard them complain the DPS was destroyed though.
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  18. #68
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aestis25 View Post
    Here is an example of a recent parse on my Guardian. In that same raid:

    Guardian (2nd age 2H Great Hammer @ 193 max dmg): 95k
    Hunter (1st age Crossbow @ 141 max dmg, fully leveled dps & both crit multipliers leveled to +16-19%): 97k
    Runekeeper (leveled up +Wrath of Flame and +WoF dot legacies): 131k
    Just a question/request:

    Do you have the actual dps numbers as well (you provided it for your guardian with a dps of ~332) for the Hunter? Personal curiousity .
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  19. #69

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faildir View Post
    Just a question/request:

    Do you have the actual dps numbers as well (you provided it for your guardian with a dps of ~332) for the Hunter? Personal curiousity .
    Hunter damage total (97k) / Time of fight (4:44) = DPS (~341DPS)
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  20. #70
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by NameAlreadyTaken View Post
    Hunter damage total (97k) / Time of fight (4:44) = DPS (~341DPS)
    ah missed that bit of info on the parse. thanks
    [CENTER][COLOR=Sienna][COLOR=DarkGreen]| [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/elendilmir/faldir/"]Faldir[/URL] -.- 65 Huntah -.-[/COLOR] [COLOR=Olive]Officer of Misadventurers[/COLOR] [COLOR=YellowGreen]-.- Elendilmir |[/COLOR][/COLOR]
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  21. #71
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kannos1600 View Post
    Cant say Ive even touched my RKer since I started Book 8. Ive mostly been on my Hunter and Minstrel for my Kinmates.

    Though alot of RKs have been complaining they cant spam out the Fire Attacks as much anymore due to increase in power ./shrug
    Havnt heard them complain the DPS was destroyed though.
    DPS numbers are still good, power is noteable. LM's will tell you DPS RK's need more battery attention than any other job. Which should be the case- they're out DPS'ing everyone.

    I still prefer my RK to my hunter for turtle.
    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
    [/color]

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,650

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by kerryak View Post
    DPS numbers are still good, power is noteable. LM's will tell you DPS RK's need more battery attention than any other job. Which should be the case- they're out DPS'ing everyone.
    Wrong. Top tier RKs will be able to pretty much sustain their own power through a fight, especially between self motivation and power pots. RKs don't even hold a candle to the power consumption of hunters.
    [SIZE=2][COLOR="Red"]tɦʋɽʋɳediɽ[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrange"]ᴥ[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"]ɽʋɳeᶄeeᶈeɽ[/COLOR]
    [COLOR="DarkOrange"]tɦʋɽɓʋrɠeɽ[/COLOR][COLOR="red"]ᴥ[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrange"]ɧʋɲt̪eɽ[/COLOR]
    [URL="http://www.putoutthefire.org"]*ᶂireᶂighterʂ[/URL][/SIZE]

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,855

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurindras View Post
    Wrong. Top tier RKs will be able to pretty much sustain their own power through a fight, especially between self motivation and power pots. RKs don't even hold a candle to the power consumption of hunters.

    Yeah, b/c hunters can't gear/trait for power or slam pots either.

    Insightful!
    [COLOR=CYAN][SIZE=3]Hat Beerbane, Former .xls Wizard and Hunter Blogger[/SIZE]
    [/color]

  24. #74
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    145

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Hi, I'm just at a loss to finding out how much damage I actually did in a fight? Sorry if something obvious has flown over me but I cannot for the life of me find anywhere to 'turn on' a feature to show me damage done total in a fight? If this actually can be done, could someone please be kind enough to show me. Not at my gaming PC so I can't log in to double double check but when I log tomorrow, hopefully I will know how to parse damage done in fights, I'm itching to know what I do in group fights (as I am definitely doing what seems to be like 20-40% damage than I was doing last week simply due to better gear and a MUCH better LI bow I have).


    Thank you :0

  25. #75

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Download, install, and run CStats. A little playing around and you'll soon be generating all sorts of numbers.
    [LEFT][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen][B]7 Level 65s: Champ, Hunter, Guardian, Captain, RK, LM, Burglar[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=YellowGreen] [B]All of them are sick of grinding Scrolls of Empowerment[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=Red][B]Awaiting change...[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [/LEFT]

 

 
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