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  1. #26

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Great post, I have long suspected this after logging some Turtle raids.
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  2. #27
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Great post that outlines the problem perfectly. I posted in the My job is thread and I will post it again here. Hopefully rks will get nerfed sooner rather than later. I don't see why rks needed the damage increase anyway they did decent damage before book 7. I just hope when turbine finally does nerf rks there are enough hunters around to pick up all the empty group spaces=) But overall great post and thanks for posting it

  3. #28
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogabu View Post
    I just hope when turbine finally does nerf rks there are enough hunters around to pick up all the empty group spaces=)
    You kidding? Everyone and their sister has a hunter, even if it's retired.
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  4. #29
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogabu View Post
    Great post that outlines the problem perfectly. I posted in the My job is thread and I will post it again here. Hopefully rks will get nerfed sooner rather than later. I don't see why rks needed the damage increase anyway they did decent damage before book 7. I just hope when turbine finally does nerf rks there are enough hunters around to pick up all the empty group spaces=) But overall great post and thanks for posting it
    No... no they didn't. when we were logging DPS parses in the 500-600s they were logging runs in the 200-300s. They were, quite literally the bottom of the heap when they had been billed as virtually top tier DPS. Now they are top tier DPS, with book 8 they will actually have to manage their power while DPSing and their crits won't be as huge, but they really don't need a bigger nerf than that.

    This is not about nerfing other classes, this is about making the Hunter what it should be... a direct, spike damage class. This, only supports the supposition that the Hunter specific nerfs were too much. Sure, the class solos well with only using a few skills and bit of situational awareness... any class can do that, a few classes can solo exceptionally well with a good working knowledge of just a few skills and good timing... they have not been nerfed for soloing well.

    Whenever people start talking about nerfing various classes, the only thing that happens is that Hunters get nerfed. So please, just stop it.
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  5. #30
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Pretty sure the turtle is less resitant to tactical dmg by an unspecified amount (http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php...0&postcount=94), so you can't read too too much into the RK figures.
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  6. #31
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Even if you knocked off about 10-15% of the RKs damage, that's still head and shoulders above what the hunter is doing.
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  7. #32
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBass View Post
    Even if you knocked off about 10-15% of the RKs damage, that's still head and shoulders above what the hunter is doing.
    Yes, but then it becomes much more comparable to Champ/Burg and so the discussion wouldn't be about RKs so much.
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  8. #33
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    Totally disagree with that. The types of fights have always been fairly similar. Hunter's have always had a very narrow role with next to no utility:
    1) CC: Bard's Arrow has always had extremely limited use as you can't chain it. I guess it had a tiny bit of utility before it got nerfed so that adds come running if you are unlucky when using it now. Rain of Thorns is far better than it was previously since they finally fixed the bug where it didn't stick half the time. There was never any use for either in a good group even without an LM in any instance. In a bad pug, you had (and still have) about a 1/100 chance of doing something truely useful with RoT.
    2) Tracking: was good for PvP until it got nerfed, and is useful for finding shard mobs, but has always had zero use in PvE groups.
    3) Ranged Damage and Skills: Isn't that just DPS again?


    It's just that players have gotten better, can take on more mobs at once, and actually realise more that Hunter's aren't useful, + care about getting through content faster.

    The two changes to content that I can think of that affect Hunters are:

    1) DPS in fights matters now:
    (eg: VM/Turtle) - previously (with few exceptions) you could take as long virtually as you wanted to kill stuff. This should have been a good thing for Hunter's except that our long term dps isn't good, sigh.

    2) There are some situations where ranged tanking, or killing stuff from range quickly is preferred:
    (eg: VM shaking tentacles, DD final boss adds) - pre MoM the only comparable situtations I can think of are the flying drake boss (lolz... cheap excuse to make Hunter's feel useful) and the Balrog for the first 10s (could be done by many classes really)

    Both 1&2 are things that should should make Hunter's more useful in content. Yay!
    But sadly DPS is so obsurdly low and threat gen/power usage so over the top that Hunter's are in fact essentially not any more useful than before.
    My main is a Hunter. I have played the ranger/hunter/scout class in a lot of MMOs. My opinions are posted out of concern for the class. Maybe your hunter had a "very narrow role with next to no utility", but mine was built, geared, and traited for utility from day 1, and he used to be valued for it.

    Again, I agree with your OP and the points you made. My additional thoughts are meant to point out that every class (even healing and support classes) is scrambling for the biggest piece of DPS "pie", and until the devs wake up and change the game mechanics to place value on non-DPS skills, this mad scramble for DPS scraps from the devs' table is never going to get any better.


    Hunter DPS is not low. It is most especially not "obsurdly low". It is much higher than it was pre-Moria. It is lower than it was in book 6, but it is still near the top of any class; and, when weapon DPS was lowered in book7, NPC morale was lowered also. The problem is....hunters want to be head and shoulders above every other class. They think that the only reason any group will want them is if they can out DPS any other class. Sadly, they may be right given the present state of the game.

    But Hunters have the potential to be a whole lot more than just a DPS class. We were designed to be more than that. The problem is that the game doesnt place much value at all on anything BUT DPS. Turbine took the game in this direction, and then made all the classes into high DPS dealers.

    It makes for a simple, fast, ego-stroking MMO, but now we have all the classes basically fighting over that one role. Classes that should be arguing about healing or buffing or crowd control are all arguing over DPS. Just Look at the class forums.
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  9. #34
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzer View Post
    My main is a Hunter. I have played the ranger/hunter/scout class in a lot of MMOs. My opinions are posted out of concern for the class. Maybe your hunter had a "very narrow role with next to no utility", but mine was built, geared, and traited for utility from day 1, and he used to be valued for it.

    Again, I agree with your OP and the points you made. My additional thoughts are meant to point out that every class (even healing and support classes) is scrambling for the biggest piece of DPS "pie", and until the devs wake up and change the game mechanics to place value on non-DPS skills, this mad scramble for DPS scraps from the devs' table is never going to get any better.


    Hunter DPS is not low. It is most especially not "obsurdly low". It is much higher than it was pre-Moria. It is lower than it was in book 6, but it is still near the top of any class; and, when weapon DPS was lowered in book7, NPC morale was lowered also. The problem is....hunters want to be head and shoulders above every other class. They think that the only reason any group will want them is if they can out DPS any other class. Sadly, they may be right given the present state of the game.

    But Hunters have the potential to be a whole lot more than just a DPS class. We were designed to be more than that. The problem is that the game doesnt place much value at all on anything BUT DPS. Turbine took the game in this direction, and then made all the classes into high DPS dealers.

    It makes for a simple, fast, ego-stroking MMO, but now we have all the classes basically fighting over that one role. Classes that should be arguing about healing or buffing or crowd control are all arguing over DPS. Just Look at the class forums.
    This post makes me very angry, very frustrated, and is impossible to respond to because you'll come back with another one that has an even larger amount of nonsense surrounding an even littler amount of sense.
    Last edited by Evendale; Jun 23 2009 at 07:39 AM.
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  10. #35
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aestis25 View Post
    Well, I realize I'll probably never be able to convince you otherwise, but the whole "fully viable, alternate primary role" is a convenient half-truth. If that's your argument, I could say the same thing about Hunters and CC. Because fully traited down the Trapper path, we also have a "fully viable, alternate primary role" that compares favorably with LRMs and far surpasses Burglars. Yet that wouldn't in reality be a great argument to make, for the same reasons it falls short with the RK class.

    RKs do need something they do best. If they didn't, then you'd always be better off bringing a Hunter or a Minstrel, and RKs would simply be the poor man's version of either. Suffice to say I think making RKs into a slightly better long-distance DPS'er than Hunters would be a wise direction in the long run, albeit an unpopular one in the short term.

    But the keys to that are two-fold:

    1. The word "slightly." Right now, the gap is HUGINORMANTIC.
    2. Hunters still need to be ahead of the rest of the pack for single-target sustained DPS. Right now, they aren't.
    First up, great OP! What I found most disturbing about your figures is that hunters are not as good in their primary role as are a tanking class in its secondary role.

    However, I cannot agree with you in this post. As far as secondary roles go, a hunter fully traited in the trapper path is not as good at CC as a burglar likewise fully traited for CC. But, even if we were we pay a 20% plus penalty on dps for that ability, putting us further back in the field on single target dps. Meanwhile the burglar gets to CC, dps and debuff; meaning in nearly all situations, your better of with a burgler in the group than a trapper.

    In contrast, RK can switch from being the DPS kings to healing almost as well as a minstrell in the middle of a boss fight. I have seen a RK in the group for DPS take over healing duties when the Minstrell died and heal well enough keep the rest of the group up till the last mob died. If hunters were to have that sort of flexibility, the difference between full on bowmaster and full on trapper should be a matter of stance.

    That is also why hunters should out dps RK. RK do not need to be best at something. There very flexibility gives them a group role even if they were only second best at single target dps and second best healing, for in a single instance run they give the option of either an extra healer or extra dps as required in specific encounters.

  11. #36
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    This post makes me very angry, very frustrated, and is impossible to respond to because you'll come back with another one that has an even larger amount of nonsense surrounding an even littler amount of sense.
    Then I suspect that the de-evolution of the Hunter class and the game itself, will make you very happy. There is nothing wrong with that. Neither of us is right or wrong.

    I will say for the third time: Your OP was a good one that I agree with. My position on the oversimplification of the game and the classes in no way disagrees with your post or diminishes it. I simply wished to point out that the Hunter class and the entire game should be about more than DPS.

    The devs have chosen to reduce the game to a DPS contest, I suspect because it is simpler than actually balancing more complex class roles, and because it makes the classes easier to play.

    They are designing the game and classes for the lowest common denominator of player. It evidently is paying off, at least for now. If you are happy with that, you are fortunate.
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  12. #37
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzer View Post
    I will say for the third time: Your OP was a good one that I agree with.
    This thread wasn't started by me.

    My first post was about Thurandir being humble. Good to know you agree with that so wholeheartedly.
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  13. #38
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evendale View Post
    This thread wasn't started by me.

    My first post was about Thurandir being humble. Good to know you agree with that so wholeheartedly.
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  14. #39
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    This is definately an excellent post. In fact, because of it, I am going to plan on parsing my next turtle raid for comparison. It is staggering how, in the turtle scenario, hunter and guardian are neck and neck.

    One of the only points, however, that I tend to disagree with is:

    A fully geared/traited Guardian will out-dps a fully geared/traited Hunter in Endurance stance against a single target. Against multiple mobs, a Guardian will out-dps an Endurance stanced Hunter by a huge margin.
    I just dont think I agree with this. I obviously do not have the numbers to back it up, but I do not think that my dps goes so far below a guardian when in endurance.

    Given your numbers, it might be a reasonable extrapolation. However, in endurance stance (as opposed to strength), we sustain our dps arguably far longer than in strength and do not sit there auto-attacking waiting for that power pot to come off cooldown. Now do realize that I could be absolutely totally wrong (it is human nature and I may have jumbled somethings up in my head, been happening alot lately), but that is somewhat the way I see it.


    Do not get me wrong though, I agree that hunter dps is sub-par at this point. In fact, I agree with almost all of your post (I read all of it but may have forgotten anything I did not agree with ). That is just my take on that one and only main issue I had with your post.

    Hopefully Turbine will read and understand your post and finally act accordingly.
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  15. #40

    This is the best post I have read in the past 3 months.

    It supports what I have believed since book 7. I am floored however that a guardians DPS is only 2000 less then a hunters in strength stance. This is the best post yet to show how over the top the book 7 nerf was. Sadly though I doubt Turbine or the development team will ever see it, and if they do I doubt they will care. Turbine for some reason wants DPS parity among all the classes. The problem is DPS is all the hunter can do. We lose way too much DPS to go in the trapper line for CC. And alot of the raid bosses are immune to fears, traps, mezzes etc. So the raid content is all DPS centered period. The rift you had to have LM and burg's for mezzes or you couldn't do it. Now it is all DPS centered and why would you take a hunter in a raid since our CC is useless on alot of bosses, especially when a guardian could switch to tanking and a RK could switch to healing if the need arose. The hunters are now the least useful class in a raid IMHO because we can add nothing but DPS and as the OP shows our DPS is only very marginally better then a Guardians and so far behind a RK it isn't even funny. Why the RK's dont draw aggro with their big hitting skills like hunters is beyond me. For some reason Turbine seems to be favoring the RK and possibly wanting to phase out the hunter. Why is beyond me.
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  16. #41
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Nice post by the OP, and some solid suggestions...Either make SS viable to run in 100% or make PS or ES more DPS.

    However, you must consider that he hunter is the ONLY class that can deliver DPS at 40m.

    The question is how much is that worth. IMO its not enough when most mobs will close to melee or go anti-exploit if they cant get to you.

    (Even tho you can still range tank the watcher, its just not as fast as doing it the other way
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  17. #42
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    Re: This is the best post I have read in the past 3 months.

    Quote Originally Posted by iuhoops5 View Post
    Sadly though I doubt Turbine or the development team will ever see it, and if they do I doubt they will care.
    You just summed up exactly why I hate these forums so much. Aestis takes the time to write a well thought out post in a constructive manner and people like you come in here dripping with disdain, honestly believing that Turbine doesn't give a damn about the Hunter class. If you really, truly believe that, then by all means, quit. Please.
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  18. #43
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faildir View Post
    One of the only points, however, that I tend to disagree with is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aestis25 View Post
    A fully geared/traited Guardian will out-dps a fully geared/traited Hunter in Endurance stance against a single target. Against multiple mobs, a Guardian will out-dps an Endurance stanced Hunter by a huge margin.
    I just dont think I agree with this. I obviously do not have the numbers to back it up, but I do not think that my dps goes so far below a guardian when in endurance.
    From a dedicated S:E hunter:

    In S:E with moderate gear, I can sustain around 200 DPS. I'd be very surprised if getting top-flight gear would bump me up past 250. If someone claimed 300 in S:E I'd demand video proof (and they'd make some lame excuse for not providing it). According to Aestis' info, that's half of what our competition is doing. If, as a primary damage dealer, outputting 50% of the damage of another class (and 70% of the damage of your tanks and/or healers) isn't gimp, I don't know what is.
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    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Very interesting conversation and numbers.

    I am not high enough in level in any of my classes (because I play them all) to add numbers.

    However I think it is somewhat ignorant (in the lack-of-understanding sense) to assume that the devs don't give a hoot about any specific part of the game.

    It is their job, it is their creation, it is their 'daily grind'. They might get too focused on one area, or an odd idea about another, and their 'vision' might differ from a specific classes, but they can't ignore the overall direction of the game and it's players.

    What they CAN ignore is endless walls of text based on opinion, perception, and dissatisfaction.

    The OP has an awesome start by posting his numbers. However, that is ONE data point, one fight, one specific set of players, equipment etc.

    If instead of 200 opinions, we got even TWENTY comparable data points, showing the parsed results of 5 fights vs situation A, five vs situation B, etc C & D, and with a couple different matches of hunter/champ/guard/RK etc, THEN you would have something the devs would have to sit back and say... "You know, maybe we need to fix this".

    Yes, that would in a way be doing their work for them, but if you want an issue addressed that's the cross you gotta bear.

    Given the number of kins and raids out there, how hard can it be to put together 5 groups of mostly-evenly matched classes and go fight situation A, B, C & D and post the results.

    That might do more than a month of kvetching.

    Since I have no characters in that range, alas, I can only offer my... opinion.


    [EDIT: Just stole some numbers from another thread, here for example:]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeger_Wulf View Post
    It depends highly on the group make-up. The better your raid, the less damage you will do, because the turtle will die faster. I have done my most damage when the other group totally wiped.

    My hunter has a third age bow. He does 80K to 90K. My wife's RK does 85K-95K. My warden (traited for tanking not damage) does 55K-65K. Our kin Guardian (traited for DPS), did 80K last run (my hunter did 81K.) Our champs do 90Kto 130K.
    Last edited by Forcemajeure; Jun 23 2009 at 12:14 PM.

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    3,228

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aestis25 View Post
    Well, I realize I'll probably never be able to convince you otherwise, but the whole "fully viable, alternate primary role" is a convenient half-truth. If that's your argument, I could say the same thing about Hunters and CC. Because fully traited down the Trapper path, we also have a "fully viable, alternate primary role" that compares favorably with LRMs and far surpasses Burglars. Yet that wouldn't in reality be a great argument to make, for the same reasons it falls short with the RK class.
    As others have pointed out, comparing our trapper line to RKs ability to switch from DPS to healing mid-fight doesn't really work. We obviously can't switch those roles without a trip to the bard. We can't join a group to run an instance as DPS, then midway thru when the LM goes linkdead switch to CC. Additionally, I think the fact that most of our CC is root-based is something that people tend to overlook because there's so few ranged mobs currently. If new content comes out with a higher percentage of ranged mobs, suddenly all our traps and RoT are rendered mostly useless. And Bard's Arrow & Distracting Shot, while great tools for soloing, are very weak group CC. And ToF does nothing to help those until you go 5-deep and add Explosive Arrow.

    RKs do need something they do best.
    We've got too many classes for each to have something that they do best. A class with 2 primary roles should not be the best in either of those roles.

    If they didn't, then you'd always be better off bringing a Hunter or a Minstrel, and RKs would simply be the poor man's version of either.
    But that's not true. If a RK does 90-95% of hunter's damage, hunters still wouldn't be the clearly preferred DPS class unless you had 100% confidence in your group's healer. Not to mention, it's always a good thing to have extra rezzers, so if you can fill your DPS slot w/ someone who can rez too, that's an obvious bonus.

    RKs probably should be roughly equivalent to Minis, because of the critical nature of being a primary healer, and it sounds like that's pretty close to true.

    Suffice to say I think making RKs into a slightly better long-distance DPS'er than Hunters would be a wise direction in the long run, albeit an unpopular one in the short term.
    You say above that RKs need to be the best at sustained DPS or they'll be the poor man's hunter, but you have it backwards. Until hunters are back to #1 DPS, they'll always be the poor man's RK (or the even poorer man's LM).

    Quote Originally Posted by -MoJo- View Post
    ...When I can run 4 bowmaster in SS with that xbow I never have a RK pull aggro from me.
    Which says absolutely nothing about how much DPS you're doing compared to the RK...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogabu View Post
    Great post that outlines the problem perfectly. I posted in the My job is thread and I will post it again here. Hopefully rks will get nerfed sooner rather than later. I don't see why rks needed the damage increase anyway they did decent damage before book 7. I just hope when turbine finally does nerf rks there are enough hunters around to pick up all the empty group spaces=) But overall great post and thanks for posting it
    Again:
    Fixing weak classes > nerfing strong classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faildir View Post
    I just dont think I agree with this. I obviously do not have the numbers to back it up, but I do not think that my dps goes so far below a guardian when in endurance.

    Given your numbers, it might be a reasonable extrapolation. However, in endurance stance (as opposed to strength), we sustain our dps arguably far longer than in strength and do not sit there auto-attacking waiting for that power pot to come off cooldown. Now do realize that I could be absolutely totally wrong (it is human nature and I may have jumbled somethings up in my head, been happening alot lately), but that is somewhat the way I see it.
    The OP implied that the hunters in question were able to run S:S thruout the fight without resorting to AAs. They may have had to put off Pen shots from time to time, but it probably wasn't enough to drop their output anywhere near the 25% difference between S:E and S:S with 3/x/x.
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

    [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=92210"]Camp Site List[/URL] [/b][COLOR=#8C9FB2]||[/COLOR] [B][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?338615-Regen&p=4742372#post4742372"]Regen (PIC/MIC) from Fate[/URL] [COLOR=#8C9FB2][/B]||[B] Convert Ratings to Percent[/B]: [B][/COLOR][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4082215#post4082215"]BPE/Crit/Etc.[/URL][/B][/size]

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Kannagi <mine>
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    3,809

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forcemajeure View Post
    The OP has an awesome start by posting his numbers. However, that is ONE data point, one fight, one specific set of players, equipment etc.
    No, it's one voice in a chorus of dissatisfaction that began some two years ago and only abated for a moment when MoM launched.
    [CENTER][FONT=Book Antiqua][COLOR=dimgray]::: [SIZE=3][URL="http://waywatchersofcardolan.guildportal.com"][COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=4]T[/SIZE]he [SIZE=4]W[/SIZE]aywatchers of [SIZE=4]C[/SIZE]ardolan[/COLOR][/URL] [SIZE=2]:[/SIZE] [URL="http://palantiri.guildportal.com"][COLOR=LightBlue][SIZE=4]T[/SIZE]he [SIZE=4]P[/SIZE]alantiri[/COLOR][/URL][/SIZE] :::[/COLOR][/FONT]
    [FONT=Garamond][COLOR=DimGray][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/balgr/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Balgr Snowmantle[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Curmudgeon[/COLOR] :[SIZE=4][COLOR=#303030].[/COLOR][/SIZE][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/saladoc/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Saladoc Willowleaf[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Stick-in-the-mud[/COLOR]
    [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/ciruth/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Ciruth of Gondor[/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=Silver]: Itinerant Scholar[/COLOR] : [COLOR=LemonChiffon][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/halvr/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Halvr[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/landroval/khasi/"][COLOR=LemonChiffon]Khasi Flamebrow[/COLOR][/URL], and [COLOR=LemonChiffon]Kholi[/COLOR][COLOR=Silver]: At your service![/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray][URL="http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/MrPinstripes/FFXI%20Stuff/AustrevenMH21409.jpg"][COLOR=dimgray]Austreven[/COLOR][/URL][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray][SIZE=3][COLOR=#303030].[/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray]of Cobalt (Bismarck)[/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [/CENTER]

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    3,228

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traffic View Post
    However, you must consider that he hunter is the ONLY class that can deliver DPS at 40m.

    The question is how much is that worth.
    In groups? Pretty much nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forcemajeure View Post
    The OP has an awesome start by posting his numbers. However, that is ONE data point, one fight, one specific set of players, equipment etc.

    If instead of 200 opinions, we got even TWENTY comparable data points, showing the parsed results of 5 fights vs situation A, five vs situation B, etc C & D, and with a couple different matches of hunter/champ/guard/RK etc, THEN you would have something the devs would have to sit back and say... "You know, maybe we need to fix this".

    Yes, that would in a way be doing their work for them, but if you want an issue addressed that's the cross you gotta bear.
    Except that legwork has been done, by many players, and in several game-areas. Here's one example from a couple months back: Looking at class performance...
    [b][size=1][color=#7C8FA2][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/dahm"][color=#7C8FA2]Dahm[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65H[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thuli"][color=#7C8FA2]Thuli[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]65G[/color] | [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/Dudarian"][color=#7C8FA2]Dudarian[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]20W[/color] [color=#6C7F92]::[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-brandywine-grey_wanderers/"][color=#7C8FA2]The Grey Wanderers[/color][/URL] of Brandywine[/color]
    [color=#4C5F72]and the stalled alts: [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/thaelen"][color=#4C5F72]Cappy @12[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kuruvar"][color=#4C5F72]RK @27[/color][/URL] [COLOR="#3C4F62"]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/kalthas"][color=#4C5F72]Mini @33[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/naldo"][color=#4C5F72]Burg @34[/color][/URL] [COLOR=#3C4F62]|[/COLOR] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/brandywine/drekka"][color=#4C5F72]Champ @36[/color][/URL][/color]
    [color=#448877][URL="http://my.lotro.com/character/vilya/dahms"][color=#448877]Dahm's Evil Twin[/color][/URL] [color=#2C3F52]31H[/color] [URL="http://my.lotro.com/kinship-vilya-and_my_awesome_friends/"][color=#448877]And My Awesome Friends[/color][/URL][color=#303030]_[/color] [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=313143"][I][COLOR=DarkRed]a permadeath kin on Vilya[/COLOR][/URL][/I][/color][SIZE="3"][color=#303030]_[/color][/SIZE]

    [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=92210"]Camp Site List[/URL] [/b][COLOR=#8C9FB2]||[/COLOR] [B][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?338615-Regen&p=4742372#post4742372"]Regen (PIC/MIC) from Fate[/URL] [COLOR=#8C9FB2][/B]||[B] Convert Ratings to Percent[/B]: [B][/COLOR][URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4082215#post4082215"]BPE/Crit/Etc.[/URL][/B][/size]

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pretty much the polar opposite of where I want.
    Posts
    888

    Re: This is the best post I have read in the past 3 months.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayrolen View Post
    You just summed up exactly why I hate these forums so much. Aestis takes the time to write a well thought out post in a constructive manner and people like you come in here dripping with disdain, honestly believing that Turbine doesn't give a damn about the Hunter class. If you really, truly believe that, then by all means, quit. Please.
    How much evidence do you need to draw a reasonable conclusion (that Turbine doesn't care about the Hunter or listen to the reasoned concerns of those that play them)?

    Because over 2 years is more than enough evidence for me.
    .

    Just one of the many travellers on the circular path of KotD leadership

  24. #49

    Ayrolen I am not the only hunter that doesn't think Turbine cares.

    I have been around since July 2007 and we have had numerous posts pointing out the DPS problems with the hunter class and NOTHING was done in over 2 years until Moria came out then the first new content came out and it was a kneejrek reaction that dropped hunter DPS by probably 30-35%. Unless you have a first age bow the hunter class is barely viable. And as the OP commented the OP guardian only did 2000 less damage then the hunter in strength stance. I think cwood was one of the first if not the first no notice this shortly after month of the guardian gave guardians the Overpower stance. And nothing has been done about it in over a year and a half. So if Turbine cared wouldn't they have addressed it by now? let's take a quick poll how many hunters think the development team doesn't care one iota about us or if they did why not make positive changes instead of nerfs. Who here thinks turbine doesn't care or won't ever see what is in these forums?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000287177/01003/signature.png]Aremot[/charsig]

  25. #50

    Re: An Objective DPS Comparison: Are Hunters a Tier 1 DPS Class?

    Do not derail this topic or bury it with hyperbole. Seriously. Enough quality posts have already been drowned out with noise, don't do it again.
    [LEFT][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkGreen][B]7 Level 65s: Champ, Hunter, Guardian, Captain, RK, LM, Burglar[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=YellowGreen] [B]All of them are sick of grinding Scrolls of Empowerment[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1][COLOR=Red][B]Awaiting change...[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    [/LEFT]

 

 
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