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Thread: Scaling

  1. #1
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    Scaling

    Could Cordorvan please confirm whether SSG are aware that there is a problem/bug with scaling in the ettenmoors please ?

    Could Cordovan please confirm that this bug has been known for some time ?

    Could Cordovan please confirm that it considers scaled players who are also aware of this bug to be exploiters ?

    This is is a major problem at the moment and I'd appreciate some input here .

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tirn View Post
    Could Cordovan please confirm that it considers scaled players who are also aware of this bug to be exploiters ?
    Lmao deluded

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justapvpdude View Post
    Lmao deluded
    im just asking a simple question I didn't say that I expected a response . It's on the record

  4. #4
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    Add to that many store trackers not registering warnings in combat logs. There has been no acknowledgment of the scaling issue that I am aware of.

  5. #5
    Why can't I have good things?

    Every game mode I'd love to play is usually ruined by developer ignorance.

  6. #6
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    Just for giggles I took my level 105 LM to the moors. She scales in at 115 (reasonable) but at RANK !4! RANK 14? Seriously? My highest creep is Rank 6 after 2 weeks+ of grinding infamy. Why is there no commensurate ranking process for freeps? Doesn't need to be as harsh as creepside. To be fair, creepside is not all THAT bad considering you CAN "buy" advanced skills, but rank, which cannot be bought, is invaluable. Sure, freeps have to level up (do they? NO, not to 115 to get R14). Let's say you let someone who is level 115 come in at R14 as a reward for leveling up (PVE pfft as it is). Better would be for level sub 115 to come in at a lower rank. Level 100 or less = level 0, scale could add a rank for every level above 100, and add renown for quests in PvMP to rank up.

    So my level 105 would come in at L115 and R5, with a chance to improve rank with quests in PvMP. Granted for someone above 100, they can rank by leveling, but for sub 100s, they need to earn renown by defeating creeps or questing to rank, just like creeps do.
    Kinships: Fifth Star Vagabonds on Crickhollow (Dotswith); Random Access on Arkenstone (Dottiel)

  7. #7
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    It says your VIRTUES are set to (at least) rank 14. Your Moors rank is not touched by scaling.

  8. #8
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    "Scaling issues" is generic enough that we'll need more specifics. If you are talking the general state of freeps being more powerful than creeps at the moment (outside of a specific issue with the Warg), then yes, we are aware of it. If there is a specific issue regarding scaling that you feel we are not aware of, though, please provide more detail.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    "Scaling issues" is generic enough that we'll need more specifics. If you are talking the general state of freeps being more powerful than creeps at the moment (outside of a specific issue with the Warg), then yes, we are aware of it. If there is a specific issue regarding scaling that you feel we are not aware of, though, please provide more detail.
    More specific?

    This is issue that's been brought directly in detail to dev teams attention as soon as it was possible in beta, several times, discussed for weeks before launch. Several months ago.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    "Scaling issues" is generic enough that we'll need more specifics. If you are talking the general state of freeps being more powerful than creeps at the moment (outside of a specific issue with the Warg), then yes, we are aware of it. If there is a specific issue regarding scaling that you feel we are not aware of, though, please provide more detail.
    My understanding is that people mean that level-scaled freeps are too powerful (115 freeps are, too, but the Moors is a mess right now, in general). This is mostly because of the way essences are scaled. On on top of that, they get to keep their lvl 105 set bonus (raid gear).

    Level scaled freeps have better stats, set bonuses. This makes especially hunters and burglars insanely overpowered.

    To fix this issue, simply disable level scaling above lvl 104, or cap the item level to which items get scaled. This cap would ideally be less than the item level that is obtainable as a lvl 115 freep (currenyl ilvl 326 - make scaled items scale to 315, like instance drops).

    Aside from that, the overall damage in the Moors is quite high, also on lvl 115 freeps. I would suggest you reduce the damage dealt by hunters and burglars by a decent amount (say 30%), but also reduce defiler healing by ~15-20%, to offset these changes. Defiler heals are incredibly potent at the moment, but it is easily overlooked because two freep classes (burgs and hunters) are wildly out of control. As you are aware, wargs are also very strong right now, and something will have to be done about the damage they can dish out, too, if you want to make the Ettenmoors a more enjoyable experience for everyone. Preferably, this would be done by redistributing the warg's damage, so that their effective DPS remains the same, and it just becomes harder to achieve. There are threads on the Bullroarer forums detailing such redistributions.

    There is plenty of feedback all over the forums that isn't generic, though. You could've found specifics detailing what needs to be addressed ever since Bullroarer round 1 Update 21.0. That said, I commend your bravery... Coming into the PvP forums as a blue name.
    Last edited by Giliodor; Oct 09 2017 at 02:40 PM.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    "Scaling issues" is generic enough that we'll need more specifics. If you are talking the general state of freeps being more powerful than creeps at the moment (outside of a specific issue with the Warg), then yes, we are aware of it. If there is a specific issue regarding scaling that you feel we are not aware of, though, please provide more detail.
    Good to hear from you C. I believe the "scaling" issue that we identified is that a lvl 105 Freep that is scaled to 115 does far more damage than a lvl 115 Freep likely due to a flaw in the auto-scaling feature. This is prompting some freeps to disable leveling and enter the Moors only at lvl 105 to take advantage of this opportunity/exploit (depending on your vantage). A true level 115 Freep is much more on-par with a 115 creep.

    The issue is most manifest with hunters and burgs... (the wargs of the Freeps). Sadly, we lost several good creeps that refuse to play when they can be easily one-shotted by those that take advantage of this situation.

    Aak/Cor

  12. #12
    I don't even PVMP and i have heard of this issue.

    Can the devs really have missed this?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    "Scaling issues" is generic enough that we'll need more specifics. If you are talking the general state of freeps being more powerful than creeps at the moment (outside of a specific issue with the Warg), then yes, we are aware of it. If there is a specific issue regarding scaling that you feel we are not aware of, though, please provide more detail.

    Simply put, scaling allows 105 bonuses to retain relevance, and seems to produce a more favorable stat position for freeps. This will probably all change once instance/aud armor is introduced. The biggest problem with scaling is it exaggerates the already Overpowered position that Burglars and Hunters are in.
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Landroval~

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corwelleon View Post
    Good to hear from you C. I believe the "scaling" issue that we identified is that a lvl 105 Freep that is scaled to 115 does far more damage than a lvl 115 Freep likely due to a flaw in the auto-scaling feature. This is prompting some freeps to disable leveling and enter the Moors only at lvl 105 to take advantage of this opportunity/exploit (depending on your vantage). A true level 115 Freep is much more on-par with a 115 creep.

    The issue is most manifest with hunters and burgs... (the wargs of the Freeps). Sadly, we lost several good creeps that refuse to play when they can be easily one-shotted by those that take advantage of this situation.

    Aak/Cor
    Thanks.
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  15. #15
    I wish I could give you more specifics, but when I see some people start coming to the Moors wearing leveling disablers, I know something is very wrong.

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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    My understanding is that people mean that level-scaled freeps are too powerful (115 freeps are, too, but the Moors is a mess right now, in general). This is mostly because of the way essences are scaled. On on top of that, they get to keep their lvl 105 set bonus (raid gear).

    Level scaled freeps have better stats, set bonuses. This makes especially hunters and burglars insanely overpowered.

    To fix this issue, simply disable level scaling above lvl 104, or cap the item level to which items get scaled. This cap would ideally be less than the item level that is obtainable as a lvl 115 freep (currenyl ilvl 326 - make scaled items scale to 315, like instance drops).

    Aside from that, the overall damage in the Moors is quite high, also on lvl 115 freeps. I would suggest you reduce the damage dealt by hunters and burglars by a decent amount (say 30%), but also reduce defiler healing by ~15-20%, to offset these changes. Defiler heals are incredibly potent at the moment, but it is easily overlooked because two freep classes (burgs and hunters) are wildly out of control. As you are aware, wargs are also very strong right now, and something will have to be done about the damage they can dish out, too, if you want to make the Ettenmoors a more enjoyable experience for everyone. Preferably, this would be done by redistributing the warg's damage, so that their effective DPS remains the same, and it just becomes harder to achieve. There are threads on the Bullroarer forums detailing such redistributions.

    There is plenty of feedback all over the forums that isn't generic, though. You could've found specifics detailing what needs to be addressed ever since Bullroarer round 1 Update 21.0. That said, I commend your bravery... Coming into the PvP forums as a blue name.
    Thank you for your terrific observations, I agree on all counts- especially thanking a blue name for visiting. I understand that the Moors has been a side-dish for the game and try not to hyperventilate when things get unbalanced. I like simple solutions- as given Dev time, budgets and priorities- simple is good.

    A while back I posted another thought that would make Creeps a bit more playable that I think is also somewhat simple- move the set-bonuses on Corruptions from 3 & 6 to 2 & 4. This gives all the option to address the finesse and base stat issues raised in other thoughtful posts as one can simply add a couple mastery and finesse instead of relying on 6 Crit corruptions and 6 mits. Sadly, the suggestion got lost by those who prefer to spam how horrible SSG is and how they will never listen and thus the game is dead.... ad nasueum.

    Aak/Cor

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    "Scaling issues" is generic enough that we'll need more specifics. If you are talking the general state of freeps being more powerful than creeps at the moment (outside of a specific issue with the Warg), then yes, we are aware of it. If there is a specific issue regarding scaling that you feel we are not aware of, though, please provide more detail.

    The most important scaling issue is:

    Creeps stats were never scaled from 105-115.
    We got the same amount of finesse.At lv 105 i had 21,4% finesse and on 115 its only 3,4%.
    Mitigations are absurdly low(0% tact mits if you dont slow any tact mit corruptions)
    BPE is poorly sclaed aswell.

    THIS is the main reason why pvp activitx dropped that much after mordor release(beyond normal xpac releas level) and will never increase to former level if you dont fix those easy points.
    Next to that the freep scaling is to strong(you have way better stats in genereal due the insane lv 105 essence scalinb) and way better stats/dps than a geared lv 115 freep.

    On top of that the imbalance about hunters and burglers and wargs on freep side is there,but thats not even close that important.

    FIX NEVER SCALED CREEP STATS and you will gain so many pvp players back!
    EN Evernight:Drizzels Burgler R12(Main),Mellartach Hunter r12,Drizzels-1 Burgler R15,Khasi Guardian R9,Killiandi Captain r10,Silvior LM R10.Challenger of Gothmog
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    "Scaling issues" is generic enough that we'll need more specifics. If you are talking the general state of freeps being more powerful than creeps at the moment (outside of a specific issue with the Warg), then yes, we are aware of it. If there is a specific issue regarding scaling that you feel we are not aware of, though, please provide more detail.
    Firstly thanks for coming back on this . There must have been a myriad of complaints to your GMs about this but as others have said in this thread it can’t be right that a l105 scaled freep is more powerful than the L115 one . A lot of players have taken advantage of this and in my view it’s clearly exploiting . True to say this is being done mainly by Burgs and Hunters but all classes are doing it . A few times perhaps would be excusable but there is only one reason a certain carebear on Evernight is still L105 .

    The situation in the moors is dire enough without handing these players godmode on a plate .

    i hope you will address this in due course but it’s a start that you have acknowledged it . I won’t hold my breath however about you doing anything about it but I’ll be the first to applaud you if I’m shown to be wrong . So the ball is clearly in your court Sir .
    Last edited by Tirn; Oct 09 2017 at 05:10 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    "Scaling issues" is generic enough that we'll need more specifics. If you are talking the general state of freeps being more powerful than creeps at the moment (outside of a specific issue with the Warg), then yes, we are aware of it. If there is a specific issue regarding scaling that you feel we are not aware of, though, please provide more detail.

    After Mordor launch and during the devs gathering that day, all of you from SSG stated that after Mordor release there would be a major upgrade for creeps that we haven t seen for 3 major updates on freep side and constant nerfs for creeps. Instead of that, we got 15k morale increase, a useless finesse corruption which needs to be traited at the expense of other corruptions which are necessary for survival out there (defence ,mits etc) as well as some interviews with vague promises stating that yes we will do something sometime in the future. Instead of that, we have reached a point where hunters can hit 100k in 1 second using two skills and burglar dots are 12k for 35 seconds without any possibility to remove it and this with full defending corruption build. Bring some devs in the moors and make them play a monster. Not for 1 hour but for a constant week on a daily basis during main gaming hours and have a look at the sorry state of PvP atm. And FINALLY fix this wreck.
    Gu kibum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi... akha-gum-ishi ashi gurum...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corwelleon View Post
    The issue is most manifest with hunters and burgs... (the wargs of the Freeps).

    Aak/Cor
    This is a hot issue and glad its being acknowledged
    but making comparisons to this exploitative behavior
    with wargs makes no sense.
    There is no comparison as things stand.

    also..

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    "Scaling issues" ..outside of a specific issue with the Warg
    WHAT specific issue concerning Warg??

    and again..

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    As you are aware, wargs are also very strong right now, and something will have to be done about the damage they can dish out..
    Your post was OK until this. Are you sure you're not complaining about warg packs instead of the stalker class itself? Wargs have such a small window within which to operate and they remain the squishiest class in the Ettenmoors.
    Perhaps the class has come to your attention because more players want a stealth advantage given the state of PvMP.
    A warg can crit 15-20k dmg with a Bestial Claw if the player is fortunate enough, but to mention this in the same breath as a single level scaled burglar or hunter doing 125k dmg and dead without even registering most skills in the combat log is ludicrous.
    Last edited by Breeon; Oct 09 2017 at 06:33 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breeon View Post
    Your post was OK until this. Are you sure you're not complaining about warg packs instead of the stalker class itself? Wargs have such a small window within which to operate and they remain the squishiest class in the Ettenmoors.
    Perhaps the class has come to your attention because more players want a stealth advantage given the state of PvMP.
    A warg can crit 15-20k dmg with a Bestial Claw if the player is fortunate enough, but to mention this in the same breath as a single level scaled burglar or hunter doing 125k dmg and dead without even registering most skills in the combat log is ludicrous.
    Don t worry he knows all these details. Before this update he was mainly on warg. Now he is also on a fotm hunter doing 70-100k in 2 seconds but still comes on forum and claims differently cause he wants more. He wants 200k and finally realise his most impossible fantasy: Become a 1shooter with a pocket rk cause too much in love. Poor rk.
    Gu kibum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi... akha-gum-ishi ashi gurum...

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Thanks.
    Mitigation scaling for creeps could use a look over. The raw %'s for these, and I think crit defence, BPE and finesse were reduced after mordor launched despite not changing any corruptions etc. I had some data for this. If I get time I'll make a thread with some suggestions.

    Otherwise, as damage has been scaling up, it seems as though critical multipliers are becoming an increasingly bigger problem to keep under control.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    My understanding is that people mean that level-scaled freeps are too powerful (115 freeps are, too, but the Moors is a mess right now, in general). This is mostly because of the way essences are scaled. On on top of that, they get to keep their lvl 105 set bonus (raid gear).

    Level scaled freeps have better stats, set bonuses. This makes especially hunters and burglars insanely overpowered.

    To fix this issue, simply disable level scaling above lvl 104, or cap the item level to which items get scaled. This cap would ideally be less than the item level that is obtainable as a lvl 115 freep (currenyl ilvl 326 - make scaled items scale to 315, like instance drops).

    Aside from that, the overall damage in the Moors is quite high, also on lvl 115 freeps. I would suggest you reduce the damage dealt by hunters and burglars by a decent amount (say 30%), but also reduce defiler healing by ~15-20%, to offset these changes. Defiler heals are incredibly potent at the moment, but it is easily overlooked because two freep classes (burgs and hunters) are wildly out of control. As you are aware, wargs are also very strong right now, and something will have to be done about the damage they can dish out, too, if you want to make the Ettenmoors a more enjoyable experience for everyone. Preferably, this would be done by redistributing the warg's damage, so that their effective DPS remains the same, and it just becomes harder to achieve. There are threads on the Bullroarer forums detailing such redistributions.

    There is plenty of feedback all over the forums that isn't generic, though. You could've found specifics detailing what needs to be addressed ever since Bullroarer round 1 Update 21.0. That said, I commend your bravery... Coming into the PvP forums as a blue name.
    Might be plenty of feedback, but it's scattered across all sorts of places in these forums. We're going to need to present some considerations in a neat package, I think.

    Also, we should focus on what the problems are, and how they are problems, as opposed to spending time delivering our thoughts on what we think the solutions should be.

    We might have the same ideals for PvMP, but if we think of it as policy making, I for one would strongly disagree to a flat 30% decrease in outgoing damage to hunters/burgs. When the instances come out for example, all this will mean is that you need the instance gear to do what people are doing right now. I think it will be more fruitful for Cordovan to pass on info if we specified the problem areas, as opposed to come up with ingenious solutions for problems the devs can't be super confident a) exist, or b) are the magnitude of a problem that they actually are, as far as our experiences.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constrictions View Post
    Might be plenty of feedback, but it's scattered across all sorts of places in these forums. We're going to need to present some considerations in a neat package, I think.

    Also, we should focus on what the problems are, and how they are problems, as opposed to spending time delivering our thoughts on what we think the solutions should be.

    We might have the same ideals for PvMP, but if we think of it as policy making, I for one would strongly disagree to a flat 30% decrease in outgoing damage to hunters/burgs. When the instances come out for example, all this will mean is that you need the instance gear to do what people are doing right now. I think it will be more fruitful for Cordovan to pass on info if we specified the problem areas, as opposed to come up with ingenious solutions for problems the devs can't be super confident a) exist, or b) are the magnitude of a problem that they actually are, as far as our experiences.
    and....... if you look at his post at around 4.50pm concerning Tomorrows update we have all just been ignored ... yet again . It wouldn’t surprise me if the aud gear can be purchased in the store . Way to go Cord “Making Freeps great again” this time there won’t be a need to kill creeps as there won’t be any . Just get your ezmode gear in store . So now we will have ezmoders at L105 and ezmoders at L 115

  25. #25
    I think we have a problem with stealth on all levels. If this is by scaling... I dont know. But I noticed that NPCs seem to have no stealth detection at all.

    Further more, I play a Black Arrow, and have a stealth detection skill. I asume this means I am the counter-class to stealthed classes? Well let me tell you. I cant even detect elfs using their race skill. I cant detect hunters using camouflage, even when I did see them going in stealth. I know were they are, but can do nothing. And when I get to close, I get hit with a heartshot of around 100k. This is for me the worst part. Not the dieing. But the feeling of having nothing to counter their stealth-skills. Even my snares often does nothing. Animation of someone walking in to it, but no person in sight. It did`nt break their stealth, nor their speed. We dont have a class that can trow a AOE effect at any location. As the runekeeper. So what can we do? We just stand there and waiting for the stealthed class to kill one. And hopefully dont have the time to enter stealth again. Give the Blackarrow the skill to track all... As the Hunter can. Only that would alraidy make a diference. Maybe little, but at least I have the feeling of playing. And not just standing there, waiting to be killed, by freeps that you know are there, but cant detect at all. I am rank 7 now. I should at least be able to do something... But I get hit with attacks of around 100k. 1 shot from hunters. And 2 attackts of 50k from burglers. And this is normal crit. If I deal a def. hit, I get 20k when I`m lucky.

 

 
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