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  1. #1
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    Where the Watcher came from ?:

    anyone familiar with the lore can explain the mystery ?

    who dammed the river outside moria's west gate ? thus creating a lake for the 'watcher' ?

    where did this watcher came from ? is this thing one of the unnameable thing underground that gandalf mention ?

    did sauron control the watcher ? who's the boss of this watcher thing ?

    since moria was abandoned by dwarves , the watcher still stayed at the lake. how it find food then ?
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  2. #2

    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    i think it came from underneath the mountain

  3. #3
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by DPRIJADI1 View Post
    anyone familiar with the lore can explain the mystery ?
    who dammed the river outside moria's west gate ? thus creating a lake for the 'watcher' ?
    Rockslide ? No clue on this one
    Quote Originally Posted by DPRIJADI1 View Post
    where did this watcher came from ? is this thing one of the unnameable thing underground that gandalf mention ?
    Nah The unnameable things you will see when your 57-60 in the foundations of stone in moria though the watchers tentacles as also classified as nameless monsters so maybe.
    Quote Originally Posted by DPRIJADI1 View Post
    did sauron control the watcher ? who's the boss of this watcher thing ?
    Melkor probably made it to mess with the valar i don't think it is ever mentioned. One thing that is possible that i forget where but it is thought once in the book that maybe you could throw the one ring into the sea to hide it. Where as Gandalf said there are many great monsters of the enemy that scavenge the bottom of the see thus something would find the ring. I know its not said like that but you get the point
    Quote Originally Posted by DPRIJADI1 View Post
    since moria was abandoned by dwarves , the watcher still stayed at the lake. how it find food then ?
    Stupid deer that comes near the entrance? Random goblin? Go under the mountain back to the foundations of stone and steal a nameless creature? I don't think Tolkien ever once considered explaining this.

  4. Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by DPRIJADI1 View Post
    anyone familiar with the lore can explain the mystery ?

    who dammed the river outside moria's west gate ? thus creating a lake for the 'watcher' ?
    Perhaps the Orcs to guard the gate.

    where did this watcher came from ? is this thing one of the unnameable thing underground that gandalf mention ?
    Unknown. Could be a perversion of Morgoth back in the First Age.

    did sauron control the watcher ? who's the boss of this watcher thing ?
    The fact that the Watcher focused on attacking Frodo is a hint that it was under orders to help regain the Ring; but that's also uncertain. It could be its own boss.

    since moria was abandoned by dwarves , the watcher still stayed at the lake. how it find food then ?
    The lake probably had underwater passageways leading into and out of Moria. Just like in real life, fish and other aquatic creatures reside in caves. Orcs could also throw their dead or their condemned prisoners into the lake.
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    My guess is the Watcher was some random thing messed up by Morgoth back in the time when he was still active.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by DPRIJADI1 View Post
    anyone familiar with the lore can explain the mystery ?

    who dammed the river outside moria's west gate ? thus creating a lake for the 'watcher' ?

    where did this watcher came from ? is this thing one of the unnameable thing underground that gandalf mention ?

    did sauron control the watcher ? who's the boss of this watcher thing ?

    since moria was abandoned by dwarves , the watcher still stayed at the lake. how it find food then ?
    You'll find what little information that is available in The Fellowship of the Ring in the chapter entitled 'A Journey in the Dark':

    'I felt something horrible was near from the moment that my foot first touched the water,' said Frodo. 'What was the thing, or were there many of them?'

    'I do not know,' answered Gandalf; 'but there arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of the dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' He did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized Frodo first among all the Company.
    I could not find either 'Watcher', 'The Watcher', or even 'Sirannon' in the index to The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, so there are apparently no clues to glean from that source. There is no mention of the Watcher in the drafts of TFotR that appear in volume VI of HOME, The Return of the Shadow. Therefore, there appear to be no definitive answers to these questions.

    My suppositions:

    Since the Watcher was able to block the Hollin Gate with boulders and trees, one supposes that it dammed the Sirannon to create the dark pool it inhabited.

    I think it unlikely that Sauron controlled the Watcher, although he may have known of it. We know this is the case with Shelob.

    I think it quite possible that the Watcher had been allied with Morgoth, the fallen Vala, and was one of the few beings or creatures, such as Durin's Bane and Sauron himself, that survived Morgoth's defeat at the end of the First Age.

    Given its obvious strength and power, the Watcher was presumably able to feed on whatever it could find in and/or near the water. It is even possible that it had an underwater passage into Moria allowing it to prey upon orcs.
    Faërie is a perilous land, and in it are pitfalls for the unwary and dungeons for the overbold. – J.R.R. Tolkien, ‘On Fairy-Stories’.

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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    This topic has made me remember a serious mistake turbine made with that whole pool and the moria gate there. The trees flanking the gate are still alive! The watcher ripped them up and piled them in front of the door. What are they doing back in the ground? They are dead!
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever76543 View Post

    One thing that is possible that i forget where but it is thought once in the book that maybe you could throw the one ring into the sea to hide it. Where as Gandalf said there are many great monsters of the enemy that scavenge the bottom of the see thus something would find the ring. I know its not said like that but you get the point

    .
    Gandalf said that at the Council of Elrond when someone suggested throwing it off of a boat into the ocean.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by sir-rinthian View Post
    This topic has made me remember a serious mistake turbine made with that whole pool and the moria gate there. The trees flanking the gate are still alive! The watcher ripped them up and piled them in front of the door. What are they doing back in the ground? They are dead!
    Good catch!

    Though, I suppose you could argue that Gandalf doesn't know for certain what has happened on the other side of the gate; he's guessing from the sounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fellowship of the Ring, Ch. 4: A Journey in the Dark
    They heard Gandalf go back down the steps and thrust his staff against the doors. There was a quiver in the stone and the stairs trembled, but the doors did not open. 'Well, well! ' said the wizard. 'The passage is blocked behind us now and there is only one way out-on the other side of the mountains. I fear from the sounds that boulders have been piled up, and the trees uprooted and thrown across the gate. I am sorry; for the trees were beautiful, and had stood so long.'

    'I felt that something horrible was near from the moment that my foot first touched the water,' said Frodo. 'What was the thing, or were there many of them? '

    'I do not know,' answered Gandalf, 'but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' He did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized on Frodo first among all the Company.
    That last portion that I've highlighted would also seem to suggest that the Watcher was not merely some random beast, but was instead a force for evil, whether a creature of Morgoth or a servant of Sauron. Somehow the Watcher must have known of Frodo's quest. At the very least, Gandalf seems to have found its actions suspect.
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    Somehow the Watcher must have known of Frodo's quest.
    Or it could be that being a creature once involved with Morgoth, it was able to sense the ring and wanted it.
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    I heard a theory that would put Turbine in some hot water. It is that the watcher served as the dwarves guard for moria and that it served them. Now some of you may ask why it attacked people:
    Balin's expedition: balin was not ancestral king, so wasn't recognized by it.
    Frodo had the ring which was evil, so watcher thought that frodo was evil.
    These reasons would make fighting it pointless since it is a guardian
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by pteranadon View Post
    I heard a theory that would put Turbine in some hot water. It is that the watcher served as the dwarves guard for moria and that it served them. Now some of you may ask why it attacked people:
    Balin's expedition: balin was not ancestral king, so wasn't recognized by it.
    Frodo had the ring which was evil, so watcher thought that frodo was evil.
    These reasons would make fighting it pointless since it is a guardian
    i thoought way back then in moria , there is no lake in front of hollin gate and the lake is created when some one dammed the river.. its not the old moria defense imho.. but a sinister damming by someone (not the watcher) and then he open the underground so that the squid can live in the lake
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  13. #13

    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Obviously, someone got tired of their pet octopus and flushed it.

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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by DPRIJADI1 View Post
    i thoought way back then in moria , there is no lake in front of hollin gate and the lake is created when some one dammed the river.. its not the old moria defense imho.. but a sinister damming by someone (not the watcher) and then he open the underground so that the squid can live in the lake
    There wasn't, he probably live in the waterworks or something and was fed dead ocs or goats, if the need arose, the dwarves could maybe flood the waterworks, raisng the water level and letting the watcher attack the foes above.
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by pteranadon View Post
    I heard a theory that would put Turbine in some hot water. It is that the watcher served as the dwarves guard for moria and that it served them. Now some of you may ask why it attacked people:
    Balin's expedition: balin was not ancestral king, so wasn't recognized by it.
    Frodo had the ring which was evil, so watcher thought that frodo was evil.
    These reasons would make fighting it pointless since it is a guardian
    Heres a problem with that. If Durin had commanded that thing, wouldnt he have had it attack the balrog? Methinks a massive water creature would be a match for a big fire creature.

    Then another problem... Balin would have known about the watcher if it had been a guard. The way it was written about in the Book of Mazurbul leads me to believe none of the dwarves had any idea what it was or where it came from.

    3rd problem. If the watcher is able to sense the evil of the ring, wouldn't it have been able to sense what Gandalf was, and know not to attack him?
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    QUOTE:If Durin had commanded that thing, wouldnt he have had it attack the balrog? Methinks a massive water creature would be a match for a big fire creature. QUOTE

    Balrog is Maiar much greater than something that 12 people can kill. And the first durin to encounter Balrog was killed right after Balrog was discovered. Maybe he hadn't taught his son how to control it.

    QUOTE:Balin would have known about the watcher if it had been a guard. The way it was written about in the Book of Mazurbul leads me to believe none of the dwarves had any idea what it was or where it came from. QUOTE

    Not Necesarily, weren't most of the old records of moria destroyed by Goblins? Maybe it was a secret Defense thing. If everybody new about it, they could anticipate it and attack higher levels of the halls.

    QUOTE:3rd problem. If the watcher is able to sense the evil of the ring, wouldn't it have been able to sense what Gandalf was, and know not to attack him? QUOTE

    It didn't attack Gandalf, it attacked Frodo, and maybe it thought that Gandalf had brought "evil Frodo" to the lake so that the Watcher could have the please of destroying hima nd got over eager.

    More challenges to my theory please. I love Tolkein lore stuff and filling in the blanks
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  17. #17
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by pteranadon View Post
    More challenges to my theory please. I love Tolkein lore stuff and filling in the blanks
    My main question is that if the Watcher were under the control of the dwarves, why would they have dammed the river and created the Black Pool? That rather defeats the purpose of Durin's Door, does it not? I mean, here's a magical door, hidden from sight except under certain phases of the moon and then you go and create a large pool of water, which is just suspicious and would seem to draw more attention to the area, rather than remaining inconspicuous as the door was intended to be.

    It could be that someone else dammed the river, but for what purpose, and wouldn't this negate the notion of the Watcher serving as Moria's guard? Indeed someone else must have been responsible for the damming, for Gandalf seemed genuinely surprised to find Eregion and the Walls of Moria in its then current state. This means that the damming must have taken place after Gandalf's previous visit to Moria, which occured after it had already been long lost to the dwarves. We know this because the dwarves fought in the Battle of Azanulbizar in 2799 of the Third Age, and attempted to reclaim Moria then. Thráin II, who fought in this battle, disappeared in 2845 TA and was later found in Dol Guldur by Gandalf in 2850 TA. Gandalf's first trip through Moria was undertaken in the hopes of locating Thráin. Thus, we can safely say that sometime between 2845 and 2850 TA, the Sirannon remained undammed, and could not have been later dammed by the dwarves who had long since vacated their home. This proves that the Sirannon was not dammed by the dwarves and that the Watcher was not there at their behest to guard the entrance to Moria.

    Judging by Gandalf's words, I would imagine that the Watcher was one of the nameless creatures from Moria's dark depths.
    Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.
    "Older and fouler than Orcs" wouldn't mean much in the context of a typical Orc's lifespan, however if Gandalf is referring to their original breeding in the pits of Utumno, then this means that the nameless (and very likely those that spawned the Watcher) are almost as old as the world itself.
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by pteranadon View Post
    Balrog is Maiar much greater than something that 12 people can kill. And the first durin to encounter Balrog was killed right after Balrog was discovered. Maybe he hadn't taught his son how to control it.
    we 12 man a balrog in the rift, and 6 man a balrog in moria

    And besides, in the 1st age Balrogs were killed off by single, unaided men and elves. They were tough, yes, but not invincible.

    Quote Originally Posted by pteranadon View Post
    It didn't attack Gandalf, it attacked Frodo, and maybe it thought that Gandalf had brought "evil Frodo" to the lake so that the Watcher could have the please of destroying hima nd got over eager.
    Which of the fellowship it attacked wasn't my point (and I know it attacked Frodo, but attacking Frodo was attacking Gandalfs party, so kinda the same thing). I meant wouldnt it have known not to attack anyone with Gandalf?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    Judging by Gandalf's words, I would imagine that the Watcher was one of the nameless creatures from Moria's dark depths."Older and fouler than Orcs" wouldn't mean much in the context of a typical Orc's lifespan, however if Gandalf is referring to their original breeding in the pits of Utumno, then this means that the nameless (and very likely those that spawned the Watcher) are almost as old as the world itself.
    The wording of that passage leads me to believe he wasnt referring to older as in a lifespan, but rather the time they have been in existance. Gandalf sort of had a way of saying stuff like that, in that way
    Last edited by sir-rinthian; Jun 13 2009 at 01:24 AM.
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  19. #19
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by sir-rinthian View Post
    The wording of that passage leads me to believe he wasnt referring to older as in a lifespan, but rather the time they have been in existance. Gandalf sort of had a way of saying stuff like that, in that way
    That was my point exactly. Hence the reason I stated that it didn't mean much in the context of an orc's lifespan. Gandalf is basically saying that there are creatures in the deeps of the world that have existed since its earliest days. These creatures even predate the breeding of the orcs in Utumno. And, it's likely that the Watcher is of this breed of creature. That's how I interpret Gandalf's words.
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    My main question is that if the Watcher were under the control of the dwarves, why would they have dammed the river and created the Black Pool? That rather defeats the purpose of Durin's Door, does it not? I mean, here's a magical door, hidden from sight except under certain phases of the moon and then you go and create a large pool of water, which is just suspicious and would seem to draw more attention to the area, rather than remaining inconspicuous as the door was intended to be.

    It could be that someone else dammed the river, but for what purpose, and wouldn't this negate the notion of the Watcher serving as Moria's guard? Indeed someone else must have been responsible for the damming, for Gandalf seemed genuinely surprised to find Eregion and the Walls of Moria in its then current state. This means that the damming must have taken place after Gandalf's previous visit to Moria, which occured after it had already been long lost to the dwarves. We know this because the dwarves fought in the Battle of Azanulbizar in 2799 of the Third Age, and attempted to reclaim Moria then. Thráin II, who fought in this battle, disappeared in 2845 TA and was later found in Dol Guldur by Gandalf in 2850 TA. Gandalf's first trip through Moria was undertaken in the hopes of locating Thráin. Thus, we can safely say that sometime between 2845 and 2850 TA, the Sirannon remained undammed, and could not have been later dammed by the dwarves who had long since vacated their home. This proves that the Sirannon was not dammed by the dwarves and that the Watcher was not there at their behest to guard the entrance to Moria.

    Judging by Gandalf's words, I would imagine that the Watcher was one of the nameless creatures from Moria's dark depths."Older and fouler than Orcs" wouldn't mean much in the context of a typical Orc's lifespan, however if Gandalf is referring to their original breeding in the pits of Utumno, then this means that the nameless (and very likely those that spawned the Watcher) are almost as old as the world itself.
    Exactly, this was after gandalf's dol gulder excusions and Saauron was already gettingmore powerful. Watcher must have figured that out or felt it, and maybe dammed the sirannon himself or made some nameless do it for him.

    For the QUOTE:we 12 man a balrog in the rift, and 6 man a balrog in moria QUOTE

    The rift Balrog is greatly weakened, and so we can kill it with the help of a first age elf. We dont fight the Balrog of Moria.

    QUOTE:I meant wouldnt it have known not to attack anyone with Gandalf? QUOTE

    As i said before, maybe it thought that gandlaf wnated it to kill frodo. Or maybe, since it was under Moria from the very beginning, it never heard of the ISTARI.

    And for those of you who are asking "Why did he only guard the west gate?" Well i think that he may have had an underwater passage to the Mirrormere.

    P.S. can someone please tell me how to put multiple qutes in a post?
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by pteranadon View Post
    Exactly, this was after gandalf's dol gulder excusions and Saauron was already gettingmore powerful. Watcher must have figured that out or felt it, and maybe dammed the sirannon himself or made some nameless do it for him.
    Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by pteranadon View Post
    The rift Balrog is greatly weakened, and so we can kill it with the help of a first age elf. We dont fight the Balrog of Moria.
    We need the help of a first age elf. That implies to me that its still quite powerful, even if weakened. and as to the moria one, have you run 6.8? No? You should

    Quote Originally Posted by pteranadon View Post
    As i said before, maybe it thought that gandlaf wnated it to kill frodo. Or maybe, since it was under Moria from the very beginning, it never heard of the ISTARI.
    In the eyes of the watcher, why would gandalf killing frodo be a bad thing if it realized frodo had the ring? And its probable that it hadnt heard of the istari, but as I said before, if it could sense the ring, wouldn't it have been able to sense that gandalf wasn't just an old guy with a stick?

    Quote Originally Posted by pteranadon View Post
    And for those of you who are asking "Why did he only guard the west gate?" Well i think that he may have had an underwater passage to the Mirrormere.
    That is a scary thought... Remind me to never swim around there again

    Quote Originally Posted by pteranadon View Post
    P.S. can someone please tell me how to put multiple qutes in a post?
    Copy and paste the [quote=playername;##### ] stuff around it, as well as the end [/quote ] thing
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  22. #22
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by sir-rinthian View Post



    We need the help of a first age elf. That implies to me that its still quite powerful, even if weakened. and as to the moria one, have you run 6.8? No? You should
    I havent done 6.8 yet, as im only level 54, but don't you fight his rogmul or something? because the actual Balrog was already killed by Gandalf.


    [QUOTE=sir-rinthian;3782647]

    Copy and paste the
    Quote Originally Posted by playername;#####
    stuff around it, as well as the end [/quote ] thing
    thanks
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  23. #23
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by pteranadon View Post
    Exactly, this was after gandalf's dol gulder excusions and Saauron was already gettingmore powerful.
    Well, now that we're agreed upon this, how does this affect the notion that the Watcher was a guardian of Moria? If all the dwarves had long since vacated, why was the Watcher still guarding it and for whom was he doing so? It really doesn't make sense to me. Nobody would be getting into Moria through the Hollin Gate anyways, unless they had a right to be there and new the secret of the door. This already negates the need for a guardian. In that case, the Watcher would have been better off in Nanduhirion guarding the East Gate.

    At any rate, even if the Watcher were a guardian of Moria, the sheer fact that he attacks us is reason enough to fight him. This alone redeems Turbine and keeps them from being "in some hot water".

    Quote Originally Posted by pteranadon View Post
    Watcher must have figured that out or felt it, and maybe dammed the sirannon himself or made some nameless do it for him.
    Okay, I can certainly see the Watcher damming the Sirannon himself. It's very likely that he swam out of an underwater passage in the river and then dammed it to form the Black Pool, giving him more room to roam about in front of Durin's Door.

    Quote Originally Posted by pteranadon View Post
    And for those of you who are asking "Why did he only guard the west gate?" Well i think that he may have had an underwater passage to the Mirrormere.
    I would be inclined to believe this, however I have to ask why, if this were true, was the Watcher not guarding the far more vulnerable East Gate?


    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .



    I'd like to posit another possibility now. That is, that the Watcher was not a guardian of Moria, but was instead simply a nameless creature working on his own agenda. We know that he hadn't yet dammed the Sirannon between 2845 and 2850 TA, but just 144 years later in 2994 TA he is said (in the Book of Mazarbul) to have killed Óin just outside the Hollin Gate. What if the Watcher's purpose was not to keep things out of Moria, but rather to keep things in? After all, the West Gate already served to keep things out. As Balin's expedition stirred things up in Moria and roused the Balrog, I can imagine the Watcher retreating out into the Sirannon and then damming it to keep the dwarves from getting out through the West Gate. This seems to make sense, considering that the Black Pool would have made travel out that way treacherous and would have slowed the dwarves down just enough for the Watcher to get them. Combined with the orcs taking the Bridge of Khazad-dûm, the dwarves would have been hopelessly trapped. And of course we know this, because they wrote about it in the Book of Mazarbul where they stated, "We cannot get out!".
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  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    118

    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Here is a cool article from Massively.com about the Watcher in the Water's role in the game:
    http://www.massively.com/2008/11/18/...-in-the-water/
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  25. #25
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    Re: Where the Watcher came from ?:

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    I'd like to posit another possibility now. That is, that the Watcher was not a guardian of Moria, but was instead simply a nameless creature working on his own agenda. We know that he hadn't yet dammed the Sirannon between 2845 and 2850 TA, but just 144 years later in 2994 TA he is said (in the Book of Mazarbul) to have killed Óin just outside the Hollin Gate. What if the Watcher's purpose was not to keep things out of Moria, but rather to keep things in? After all, the West Gate already served to keep things out. As Balin's expedition stirred things up in Moria and roused the Balrog, I can imagine the Watcher retreating out into the Sirannon and then damming it to keep the dwarves from getting out through the West Gate. This seems to make sense, considering that the Black Pool would have made travel out that way treacherous and would have slowed the dwarves down just enough for the Watcher to get them. Combined with the orcs taking the Bridge of Khazad-dûm, the dwarves would have been hopelessly trapped. And of course we know this, because they wrote about it in the Book of Mazarbul where they stated, "We cannot get out!".
    I like it, and I think that this sort of goes with that.

    Which way did the dwarves enter Moria? If they entered across the bridge, the watcher may have thought that they were traveling through. Let's say that during the dwarves' time in Moria, they did things which cought the watcher's attention. They may have had to cross through water or they may have dropped things into it that could reveal their location to a stalking foe living in the water. From this, the watcher may have concluded that the dwarves were crossing through and would eventually come out the hollin gate where, by creating the black pool, it could take them.
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