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  1. #1
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    Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    anyone can shed a light on the fate of those blue wizard that was sent to the easterling land ?

    - did saruman killed them ?

    - did saruman corrupted them and recruit them to sauron ?

    - did they both got seduced by power and took over leadership/power in eastern regions ?



    as for the eastern regions , i still got these questions..

    - how big is eastern region's population and how civilized ? are they a mottley bunch of nomads and war-like tribes ?

    - they sent armies to attack dale / lonely mountain area and they sent armies to sauron.. Did Aragorn mount a revenge expedition after he was crowned king of gondour ?


    as for the istari :

    - After aragorn got crowned , he took the last boat and sail unto the west. He said his task is finished. so gandalf's task is only for middle earth ? what about the other regions like umbar/easterling ?

    - What happened to Ragadhast ?


    as for the other People in LOTR

    - Why Arwen loses her immortality when he married aragorn ? isnt she still an elf and still immortal ? why she died in lorien ? out of sadness/grief ?

    - Aragorn seem to 'choose' his own time of death , is this normal for a numenorian ?

    - Why Frodo and bilbo granted passage into the west ? did they live forever there ? or they lived out their remaining years there ? do ordinary people got longer lifespan there ? IIRC frodo is not married when he sailed to the west so could he marry an elf there ?

    - Why Gimli granted passage into the west ? iirc gimli is very kind and courteous to lady of the woods.. but is that all ?

    - Why not all member of the fellowship granted passage to the west ? like Sam, Pippin and Merry ?

    - Any recorded lore history about dwarv-ellf marriage ? hobbit-human ? hobbit-elf ? dwarf - human ?
    Last edited by DPRIJADI1; May 15 2009 at 04:26 AM.

  2. Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    Quote Originally Posted by DPRIJADI1 View Post
    anyone can shed a light on the fate of those blue wizard that was sent to the easterling land ?

    - did saruman killed them ?

    - did saruman corrupted them and recruit them to sauron ?

    - did they both got seduced by power and took over leadership/power in eastern regions ?
    No one knows, not even Tolkien. However, in some letters, Tolkien said that, if he allowed himself to develop the story further, the Blue Wizards fell into their own ways and created magic cults that still exist today.

    as for the eastern regions , i still got these questions..

    - how big is eastern region's population and how civilized ? are they a mottley bunch of nomads and war-like tribes ?
    They're war-like, but that's all I know.

    - they sent armies to attack dale / lonely mountain area and they sent armies to sauron.. Did Aragorn mount a revenge expedition after he was crowned king of gondour ?
    Yes. Eomer and Aragorn brought them under submission after the war.


    as for the istari :

    - After aragorn got crowned , he took the last boat and sail unto the west. He said his task is finished. so gandalf's task is only for middle earth ? what about the other regions like umbar/easterling ?
    Gandalf's task was to combat Sauron. That was it. With him out of the way, he could finally retire. What evil is left in the world is the responsibility for Man to deal with.

    - What happened to Ragadhast ?
    He went "local" and set aside his original quest. Don't know if he stayed that way indefinitely.


    as for the other People in LOTR

    - Why Arwen loses her immortality when he married aragorn ? isnt she still an elf and still immortal ? why she died in lorien ? out of sadness/grief ?
    It's the doom set by God for such a union. An Elf must become mortal to marry a mortal. And Lorien was her second home besides Rivendell, and the hill called Amon Amroth was where she first saw Aragorn. It was sentimental to her.

    - Aragorn seem to 'choose' his own time of death , is this normal for a numenorian ?
    Yes, at least for a King of Numenorian birth. There's a time where they are meant to die, and if they refuse it because they fear death (as they all did after Sauron corrupted them and made them fear death instead of embracing it), they become somewhat like Gollum --- spread too thin, etc.

    - Why Frodo and bilbo granted passage into the west ? did they live forever there ? or they lived out their remaining years there ? do ordinary people got longer lifespan there ? IIRC frodo is not married when he sailed to the west so could he marry an elf there ?
    They were allowed to go because the carried the Ring, and the Ring scarred them to an extent that they could only be healed of it in the West. They didn't come to Valinor, though. They could only go as far as Tol Eressa.

    And while it's possible for an Elf to marry a Hobbit, it's highly unlikely.

    - Why Gimli granted passage into the west ? iirc gimli is very kind and courteous to lady of the woods.. but is that all ?
    It's not certain that he did, but it's strongly hinted at. Most likely Galadriel, as Queen, pulled a few strings to secure his passage.

    - Why not all member of the fellowship granted passage to the west ? like Sam, Pippin and Merry ?
    They weren't Ringbearers.

    - Any recorded lore history about dwarv-ellf marriage ? hobbit-human ? hobbit-elf ? dwarf - human ?
    No.

  3. #3

    Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    Quote Originally Posted by DPRIJADI1 View Post

    - Why not all member of the fellowship granted passage to the west ? like Sam, Pippin and Merry ?
    I'm not 100% sure about this (I'd have to consult my LOTRO book behind me, and I'm lazy) but as I recall, Sam was a Ring-Bearer (see shelob fight and aftermath) and because of this, after he'd been mayor in the shire for forever, and after rose cotton died, one last ship is mentioned sailing into the west with a rather short passenger named Sam.
    Sholeh

  4. #4
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    Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    It's the doom set by God for such a union. An Elf must become mortal to marry a mortal. And Lorien was her second home besides Rivendell, and the hill called Amon Amroth was where she first saw Aragorn. It was sentimental to her.
    Actually, it's not the marriage. It's because she was the child of Elrond. At the end of the Second Age, Earendil and Elwing, being half-elven were given the choice of being counted among elves or men--they chose elves. That same choice was given to their children, Elros and Elrond--Elros chose man, Elrond chose elf. And finally, Elrond's own children had the same choice. It's not said which Elrond's sons chose, but Arwen chose to be counted among men, so that she could remain with Aragorn.
    [COLOR=#800000]Various Hobbits, Thwilda the dwarf lass, and Gnersk, Stalker[/COLOR]

  5. #5

    Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    arwen gives up her place on the boat to frodo

  6. #6
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    Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    Quote Originally Posted by newwwwb View Post
    arwen gives up her place on the boat to frodo
    i thought its because frodo is a ring bearer so he earns the passage.. just like Sam and Glimi

  7. #7

    Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    It is true, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam were allowed to sail in to the west because of the fact they were ring bearers, the common thought is that Gimli was allowed to go to the west because of his love for Galadriel and her intervention with the powers that be to allow him to come, he did not at any time bear the ring.

  8. #8
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    Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    And it's never said what exactly happens to dwarves after death. Their own belief (described in the Sil somewhere) is that they will assist in the rebuiliding of Arda at the end of time. The Eldar didn't know if they went to the Halls of Mandos, as if they did, it was somewhere separate from them.
    My personal hunch is yes, they did. It's only Man that was given the Gift to leave the world entirely.
    [COLOR=#800000]Various Hobbits, Thwilda the dwarf lass, and Gnersk, Stalker[/COLOR]

  9. #9
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    Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    Not 100% sure about this and i feel kinda stupid since everyone else is saying something different but i just looked at my book and it says Legolas built a ship for himself and Gimli when Gimli was very old after both had explored middle earth for a long time Gimli wanted to go see galadriel because he was so in love with her he loved her more then middle earth itself. She may have pulled strings to make the eldar let him in but Legolas took him there.

  10. #10
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    Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever76543 View Post
    Not 100% sure about this and i feel kinda stupid since everyone else is saying something different...
    Here is what is said concerning the end of each member of the Fellowship:



    From The Return of the King, Appendix B - The Tale of Years, The Third Age, The Great Years, 3019.


    Gandalf (The Grey)
    January 25.
    He casts down the Balrog, and passes away. His body lies on the peak.


    Boromir
    February 26.
    Breaking of the Fellowship. Death of Boromir; his horn is heard in Minas Tirith. Meriadoc and Peregrin captured. Frodo and Samwise enter the eastern Emyn Muil. Aragorn sets out in pursuit of the Orcs at evenng. Éomer hears of the descent of the Orc-band from Emyn Muil.



    From The Return of the King, Appendix B - The Tale of Years, The Third Age, The Chief Days from the Fall of Barad-dûr to the End of the Third Age, 3021, S.R. 1421: The Last of the Third Age.


    Gandalf (The White) & Frodo
    September 29.
    They come to the Grey Havens. Frodo and Bilbo depart over Sea with the Three Keepers. The end of the Third Age.



    From The Return of the King, Appendix B - The Tale of Years, The Third Age, Later Events Concerning the Members of the Fellowship of the Ring.


    Sam
    S.R. 1482.
    Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-year's Day. On September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers.


    Merry & Pippin
    S.R. 1484.
    In the spring of the year a message came from Rohan to Buckland that King Éomer wished to see Master Holdwine once again. Meriadoc was then old (102) but still hale. He took counsel with his friend the Thain, and soon after they handed over their goods and offices to their sons and rode away over the Sarn Ford, and they were not seen again in the Shire. It was heard after that Master Meriadoc came to Edoras and was with King Éomer before he died in that autumn. Then he and Thain Peregrin went to Gondor and passed what short years were left to them in that realm, until they died and were laid in Rath Dínen among the great of Gondor.


    Aragorn
    , Legolas, & Gimli
    S.R. 1541.
    In this year [Fourth Age (Gondor) 120] on March 1st came at last the Passing of King Elessar. It is said that the beds of Meriadoc and Peregrin were set beside the bed of the great king. Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. And when that ship passed an end was come in Middle-earth of the Fellowship of the Ring.



    Further information concerning the journey of Legolas and Gimil is found earlier on in The Return of the King, Appendix A - Annals of the Kings and Rulers, III Durin's Folk.
    Here follows one of the last notes in the Red Book

    We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Glóin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.

  11. #11
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    Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspellgrey View Post
    the common thought is that Gimli was allowed to go to the west because of his love for Galadriel and her intervention with the powers that be to allow him to come, he did not at any time bear the ring.
    did .. uh.. did .. ah.. did galadriel returned gimli's love and they became the 1st dwarf / elf couple ?

    i know gimli is smitten (its written in the book) , but did galadriel also feels the same way ? i know that galadriel left celeborn in lorien in the later days.. is this because of gimli ?

  12. Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    Quote Originally Posted by DPRIJADI1 View Post
    did .. uh.. did .. ah.. did galadriel returned gimli's love and they became the 1st dwarf / elf couple ?

    i know gimli is smitten (its written in the book) , but did galadriel also feels the same way ? i know that galadriel left celeborn in lorien in the later days.. is this because of gimli ?
    Galadriel is already married :-)

  13. #13
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    Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    Quote Originally Posted by DPRIJADI1 View Post
    did .. uh.. did .. ah.. did galadriel returned gimli's love and they became the 1st dwarf / elf couple ?

    i know gimli is smitten (its written in the book) , but did galadriel also feels the same way ? i know that galadriel left celeborn in lorien in the later days.. is this because of gimli ?
    Do you have some kind of Dwarf-Elf fetish?

  14. #14
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    Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    I believe it is more of a courtly love than a romantic love.

  15. #15
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    Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    To understand the relationship between Gimli the Dwarf and Legolas the Elf, - you must look to Tolkien's personal history.

    It is well documented that Aragorn and Arwen love and marriage are based on Tolkien and his wife (in terms of Tolkien waiting for 3 years, tl he is 21 before he could even see/marry Edith by the order of Tolkien's guardian. (Also Edith is inspiration for Lúthien in Similarion)

    But the friendship between Gimli and Legolas can be compared to Tolkien and Lewis. Edith felt at times that Lewis are much more closer and knew Tolkien way better than she did. (Which probably is true, as Lewid and Tolkien would hang out a lot, drinking and talking til dawn about their novels). This friendship is strong male bond at its best (not related to homosexuality at all)

    I am not sure where Tolkien drew his inspiration for Gimli's love for Galadriel. It may be possible that Gimli here is a reference to Lewis, as during world war 1, Lewis had a pact with his friend paddy that if either one of them died, the other will take care of both families. Paddy Moore died, so Lewis looked after Paddy's mother, who is quite older, (24 years difference) and Lewis developed a deeply affectionate friendship with Mrs. Moore. Probably similiar to Gimli and Galadriel.

  16. #16
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    Re: Why Frodo allowed to sail into the west .. and other questions..

    Quote Originally Posted by duvelmoortgat View Post
    To understand the relationship between Gimli the Dwarf and Legolas the Elf, - you must look to Tolkien's personal history.

    It is well documented that Aragorn and Arwen love and marriage are based on Tolkien and his wife (in terms of Tolkien waiting for 3 years, tl he is 21 before he could even see/marry Edith by the order of Tolkien's guardian. (Also Edith is inspiration for Lúthien in Similarion)

    But the friendship between Gimli and Legolas can be compared to Tolkien and Lewis. Edith felt at times that Lewis are much more closer and knew Tolkien way better than she did. (Which probably is true, as Lewid and Tolkien would hang out a lot, drinking and talking til dawn about their novels). This friendship is strong male bond at its best (not related to homosexuality at all)

    I am not sure where Tolkien drew his inspiration for Gimli's love for Galadriel. It may be possible that Gimli here is a reference to Lewis, as during world war 1, Lewis had a pact with his friend paddy that if either one of them died, the other will take care of both families. Paddy Moore died, so Lewis looked after Paddy's mother, who is quite older, (24 years difference) and Lewis developed a deeply affectionate friendship with Mrs. Moore. Probably similiar to Gimli and Galadriel.
    It's an interesting analysis, though since it combines his horror of allegory and ham-handed biographical criticism, I believe Tolkien would be appalled.

    The old guy can take it though.

 

 

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