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  1. #1
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    What would have happened if Saruman did not betray the Free Peoples?

    The Gandalf in Moria thread was so fascinating that I thought I'd make another one.


    I'm not sure whether Saruman allied with the Free Peoples would have made the whole thing much easier or if some unforseen thing about his betrayal would have made it much worse.

  2. #2
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    Re: What would have happened if Saruman did not betray the Free Peoples?

    Helm's Deep wouldn't have happened (at least not that way) ... and the ents and huorns might well have been fighting in defense of Isengard instead of assaulting it, just for starters.

    Also, for that matter, Gandalf would have met Frodo at the Prancing Pony instead of Aragorn.

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  3. #3
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    Re: What would have happened if Saruman did not betray the Free Peoples?

    We could also safely say that Saruman would have aided in the siege of Minas Tirith and made for an even swifter victory. Helm's Deep would not have happened so Rohan could have made it to Minas Tirith with more time to spare. Or Saruman might have gone to Dale and assisted in the siege of Erebor which could have solved things more quickly.

    Overall it's easy to say that victory for the Free Peoples would have been swifter and easier but we have to take a step back further.

    If Saruman had not defected would Mordor (including Minas Morgul) have struck as soon as it did? I should think Frodo's errand would remain unchanged as it was set in motion before any military operation was made by Mordor and so one of two things would have happened: the armies of Rohan and Gondor (perhaps under Elessar) might have marched against Mordor and brought war directly to him or Frodo would have completed his errand before war ever came and basically the armies of the West would have just had clean up duty in the Black Land as Mordor's armies would have scattered. Then again Isengard was already sort of going rogue at that point so Mordor may have attacked anyway.

    That's a pretty hasty, middle-of-the-work-day sort of answer and I'm sure much more could be conjectured with a little thought.

  4. #4
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    Re: What would have happened if Saruman did not betray the Free Peoples?

    We got to think about how much Sauron depended on Saruman... I'm thinking, not so much. When Gondor and Rohan marched to the black gate to pull Sauron's armies out of the way, Sauron had a replacement for Saruman. That lieutenant guy* gave me the impression that he wasn't called up on the spur of the moment when Saruman fell. Its almost like Sauron was expecting Saruman to get beaten, or he was planning on dropping him out in the cold. I'm thinking that Saruman wouldn't have change Sauron's plans much. He might have made the outcome of the battle at Gondor a bit different though

    *The guy who came to show Aragorn & co Frodo's stuff.
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  5. #5
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    Re: What would have happened if Saruman did not betray the Free Peoples?

    "The Mouth of Sauron," you're thinking of.

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  6. #6

    Re: What would have happened if Saruman did not betray the Free Peoples?

    Quote Originally Posted by sir-rinthian View Post
    We got to think about how much Sauron depended on Saruman... I'm thinking, not so much. When Gondor and Rohan marched to the black gate to pull Sauron's armies out of the way, Sauron had a replacement for Saruman. That lieutenant guy* gave me the impression that he wasn't called up on the spur of the moment when Saruman fell. Its almost like Sauron was expecting Saruman to get beaten, or he was planning on dropping him out in the cold. I'm thinking that Saruman wouldn't have change Sauron's plans much. He might have made the outcome of the battle at Gondor a bit different though

    *The guy who came to show Aragorn & co Frodo's stuff.
    This is an excellent point. I think Saruman's falling was precisely what Sauron wanted and had shemed for. I think the Dark One used Saruman as a pawn to hinder the Rohirrim as a shield of sorts against Gondor. Distraction was his goal in my mind.

  7. #7

    Re: What would have happened if Saruman did not betray the Free Peoples?

    The White Council would have acted faster against Dol Guldur rather than wait until the same time as Bilbo's journey. If this had happened earlier, say the same time as Gandalf found Thrain in the dungeon of Dol Guldur, or earlier, Sauron might not have been ready to return to Mordor. This might have pushed off Sauron's return in strength long enough for The Ring to not be looking to "leave" Gollum at the time it did. This would have made Bilbo's adventure quite different. Grima would have remained Theoden's loyal servant. Theoden's son would not have died in battle, Theoden would not have been ensnared by Saruman but remained strong all his days. There might not have been any reason for the Council of Elrond and Aragorn would have remained in the wilderness......hmmm..... not so good a book
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  8. #8

    Re: What would have happened if Saruman did not betray the Free Peoples?

    you have to take into consideration that saruman actually betrayed the free people's far before the events of lotr. the betrayal occurred when he first had thoughts of finding and taking the ring for himself. it seems logical to me that his mysterious trip to the east is what prompted the betrayal. odd that neither of the blue wizards who went with him were ever heard from again, and that someone of his power would basically lock himself in a tower.

  9. #9

    Re: What would have happened if Saruman did not betray the Free Peoples?

    well if saruman did not betry the free peoples. then the scourging of the shire would not have happened and maybe sam wouls not have a reason to encourage frodo sense the things that he saw in the shire might not have happened when he looked at the mirror in loth. (i may be wrong but to me i always thought that the reason sam kept going was to make the events he saw not happen.)
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  10. #10
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    Re: What would have happened if Saruman did not betray the Free Peoples?

    Interesting thread. Just to add to others:

    The Gap of Rohan would have been a safe route for the Fellowship, so Gandalf would not have fallen in Moria (now go to the other thread, lol), and the Fellowship would not have passed through Lothlorien. No elven cloaks or rope, no Phial of Galadriel.

  11. #11
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    Re: What would have happened if Saruman did not betray the Free Peoples?

    Quote Originally Posted by Klapton View Post
    Interesting thread. Just to add to others:

    The Gap of Rohan would have been a safe route for the Fellowship, so Gandalf would not have fallen in Moria (now go to the other thread, lol), and the Fellowship would not have passed through Lothlorien. No elven cloaks or rope, no Phial of Galadriel.
    in the novels the fellowship avoid gap of rohan..

    but in retrospect, what would happen if the fellowship just bust thru gap of rohan ? i mean what can saruman do to stop them ?

  12. #12

    Re: What would have happened if Saruman did not betray the Free Peoples?

    Well I seem to recall a large army of orcs and humans at his command...

 

 

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