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  1. #1
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    AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Anyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    can elf male marry more than 1 female elf ? or vice versa ?

    can elf marry Dwarf and bear children ?

    can elf marry Hobbit and bear children ?

    can elf marry Goblin/Orc and bear children ? (Example : Elrond's Wife)

    What happen to the children of Elf + Human marriage ? they become human or elf ?

    can elf divorce and remarry ?

    did elf forbid same sex marriage ?

    If Elf is immortal , then can they bear children anytime ? even in their advanced adult years ?

  2. Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    Anyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?
    A bit. He wrote about it in "The Laws and Customs of the Eldar"; but all I know comes from reading what others say about it, since I don't have the book myself.

    can elf male marry more than 1 female elf ? or vice versa ?
    Absolutely not.

    can elf marry Dwarf and bear children ?
    Theoretically, but you'd have a better chance of Sauron redeeming himself than seeing an Elf and Dwarf marry.

    can elf marry Hobbit and bear children ?
    Theoretically. See above. Besides, Hobbits are an off-shoot of Men and we already know that Elves have had unions with Men.

    can elf marry Goblin/Orc and bear children ? (Example : Elrond's Wife)
    No, simply because the only way for an Orc and Elf to procreate would be through ****; and when an Elf is *****, she willingly gives up her life and dies.

    What happen to the children of Elf + Human marriage ? they become human or elf ?
    They are allowed to make that decision. They don't have to make that right away, but they can't postpone it indefinitely.

    can elf divorce and remarry ?
    No.

    did elf forbid same sex marriage ?
    Tolkien never specifically wrote about that, but since he based the Elves on his view of perfection and Catholic morality, you can rest assured that he would forbid it.

    If Elf is immortal , then can they bear children anytime ? even in their advanced adult years ?
    Yes. The body of the Elves don't break down like ours. An Elf's version of "old age" is growing tired of the world and wanting to sail to Valinor.
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  3. #3
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    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    Theoretically, but you'd have a better chance of Sauron redeeming himself than seeing an Elf and Dwarf marry.
    what about elf and dwarf ? they got bad history / grudge ? or is it the looks ? eg elf hate short ppl and only love beautiful ppl, dwarf hate frail ppl ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    They are allowed to make that decision. They don't have to make that right away, but they can't postpone it indefinitely.
    so decision to be elf is not genetic / physical ? but by conscious choice ?

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    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    what about elf and dwarf ? they got bad history / grudge ? or is it the looks ? eg elf hate short ppl and only love beautiful ppl, dwarf hate frail ppl ?
    The relations between Elves and Dwarves are often tense, even when they are friendly. I personally think that there would never be a union between Dwarf and Elf, simply because of cultural differences. And of course, what self-respecting Dwarf would marry someone without a beard?

    so decision to be elf is not genetic / physical ? but by conscious choice ?
    Yes. The only "half-elves" that we see in the lore are in fact all Descendants of Earendil the Mariner, and to those born of a man/elf union was given the choice of their destiny, whether they wanted to be an Elf (such as Elrond), or a Man (his brother Elros). When they tired of life, those who chose man would die truly and pass beyond Arda, while those who chose Elf would sail to the West.
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  5. #5
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    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Well, Arasilion already covered most of this, so I'm just going to touch upon a few things and add a little more.

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    can elf marry Hobbit and bear children ?
    It never occurs within the lore, but as Arasilion stated, it should be possible. There is, however, a rumour of a such a union in the lore:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hobbit, An Unexpected Party
    It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife. That was, of course, absurd, but certainly there was still something not entirely hobbit-like about them, - and once in a while members of the Took-clan would go and have adventures.
    The "fairy wife" referred to would be an elf. Tolkien also used the word fairy on a few occasions to refer to the elves. Indeed, the hobbits used the word Faerie to refer to the elven lands in Aman.

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    What happen to the children of Elf + Human marriage ? they become human or elf ?
    They are given the ability to choose their fate.

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    can elf divorce and remarry ?
    Divorce would be extremely unlikely. As Arasilion stated, the ideas concerning elven marriage were likely based upon Tolkien's catholic morality.

    Remarrying without divorce is possible, though extremely rare. In fact, as far as I know, it only happens once in the lore. When Finwë's first wife Míriel lost the will to live after giving birth to their son Fëanor, he married Indis, with whom he had his sons Fingolfin and Finarfin and his daughters Findis and Irimë.

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    If Elf is immortal , then can they bear children anytime ? even in their advanced adult years ?
    Theoretically, it could be possible. That being said, elves generally don't have children in later years as their libidos wane and they focus their attention on other matters, like the arts. Furthermore, the reproduction rate of elves is very low and in decline by the time of the Third Age.


    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    what about elf and dwarf ? they got bad history / grudge ? or is it the looks ? eg elf hate short ppl and only love beautiful ppl, dwarf hate frail ppl ?
    All of the above.


    Bad History / Grudge

    In the First Age, the Sindarin King Thingol invited the dwarves to his city of Menegroth to make jewelry from the treasure of Nargothrond. Among their greatest work was a necklace known as the Nauglamír, in which Thingol asked the dwarves to set the Silmaril of Beren and Lúthien. So beautiful was the Nauglamír that the dwarves themselves desired it and requested it as payment for their labours. Angry, Thingol dismissed the dwarves from his kingdom without payment, but they attacked and killed him, taking the Nauglamír as their own. On their way home, the dwarves were waylaid and killed by Beren, who brought the Nauglamír back to Lúthien. After their deaths, it passed to their son Dior and went on to become a major focus of the Second and Third Kinslaying, as Fëanor's sons tried to reclaim the Silmaril.


    Bad Looks

    Elves aren't as prejudiced as you've suggested, however they were originally confused by the look of the dwarves. In the First Age, the Seven Houses of the dwarves exiled those members of theirs who were lazy, deformed, or broke with dwarven tradition. These exiled dwarves became known as the Petty-dwarves, and were the first to cross the Ered Luin (Blue Mountains) into Beleriand, where they established the strongholds of Nargothrond and Amon Rûdh. When the Sindar crossed into Beleriand, they had never before seen the dwarves and so, confused them for wild animals. After nearly hunting the Petty-dwarves to extinction, the Sindar came into contact with the dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost. It was then that they realized the Petty-dwarves were not animals, and that their strange noises actually comprised a language (Khuzdul). Regardless, the Petty-dwarves had grown to hate the Sindar and their numbers continued to dwindle until only Mîm and his two sons were left.


    All of this was, of course, foretold by Eru when he discovered Aulë's creation of the dwarves. Causing a sleep to fall upon them, he said:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Silmarillion
    They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth; and until that time thou and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.



    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    so decision to be elf is not genetic / physical ? but by conscious choice ?
    Yes. The half-elven are given the ability to make the choice originally given to Elrond and Elros: that is, to remain immortal and pass into the West, or to accept mortality and pass beyond the Circles of the World. Elves and humans are genetically very similar. Tolkien's biographer once remarked that the "elves represent man before the fall", meaning that the elves represent men removed from their biblical sins and human limitations. Tolkien himself states in Letter 144 that the elves represent:
    ...Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties...
    He also says in Letter 153 that:
    Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring...
    This means that the only truly distinguishing factor between elves and men is their ultimate fate, whether to die or diminish.

    Quote Originally Posted by MataTahu View Post
    Yes. The only "half-elves" that we see in the lore are in fact all Descendants of Earendil the Mariner
    Not entirely. There is a pairing that even Tolkien himself seems to forget in many of his letters. Here are the major pairings between men and elves or half-elves:

    Beren and Lúthien
    Tuor and Idril
    Imrazôr and Mithrellas
    Aragorn and Arwen



    Imrazôr and Mithrellas are the couple that are most often forgotten about. Their story is told in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth. While this may be refuted as a non-canonical source, the evidence of their union does appear within the canon lore. Indeed, their union was said to have given rise to the line of the Princes of Dol Amroth. We know that these princes had an elven ancestor through the encounter between Legolas and Imrahil:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Return of the King, The Last Debate
    At length they came to the Prince Imrahil, and Legolas looked at him and bowed low; for he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins. 'Hail, lord!' he said. 'It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water.'

    'So it is said in the lore of my land,' said the Prince; 'yet never has one of the fair folk been seen there for years beyond count. And I marvel to see one here now in the midst of sorrow and war. What do you seek?'
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  6. #6
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    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    Not entirely. There is a pairing that even Tolkien himself seems to forget in many of his letters. Here are the major pairings between men and elves or half-elves:

    Beren and Lúthien
    Tuor and Idril
    Imrazôr and Mithrellas
    Aragorn and Arwen



    Imrazôr and Mithrellas are the couple that are most often forgotten about. Their story is told in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth. While this may be refuted as a non-canonical source, the evidence of their union does appear within the canon lore. Indeed, their union was said to have given rise to the line of the Princes of Dol Amroth. We know that these princes had an elven ancestor through the encounter between Legolas and Imrahil:
    Ah, yes. I had indeed forgotten about that.

    And to clarify, I mean the entire line of Earendil, instead of just his descendants, as it of course started with Beren and Luthien.
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  7. #7
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    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post

    They are given the ability to choose their fate.
    I was under the impression that this was a special privilege granted "to Earendil and to Elwing, and to their sons" as it says in The Sil. It also gives the impression that Earendil would have been considered a Man before his choice, at least this is what Mandos assumes him to be. 'Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?' says Mandos to Earendil. The ability to choose between the kindreds was granted to them specifically by Manwe. It does not appear to be part of their nature.

    It is, of course, not certain that this is true since the descendents of Earendil and Elwing are the only half-elven in the lore (and it is highly likely that there never were any others). We just don't have any other examples. Still, it seems to me that any other half-elven would default to Man in their nature and would not be immortal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    Divorce would be extremely unlikely. As Arasilion stated, the ideas concerning elven marriage were likely based upon Tolkien's catholic morality.

    Remarrying without divorce is possible, though extremely rare. In fact, as far as I know, it only happens once in the lore. When Finwë's first wife Míriel lost the will to live after giving birth to their son Fëanor, he married Indis, with whom he had his sons Fingolfin and Finarfin and his daughters Findis and Irimë.
    Tolkien most likely thought of divorce the way the Catholic Church does: it doesn't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    Not entirely. There is a pairing that even Tolkien himself seems to forget in many of his letters. Here are the major pairings between men and elves or half-elves:

    Beren and Lúthien
    Tuor and Idril
    Imrazôr and Mithrellas
    Aragorn and Arwen



    Imrazôr and Mithrellas are the couple that are most often forgotten about. Their story is told in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth. While this may be refuted as a non-canonical source, the evidence of their union does appear within the canon lore. Indeed, their union was said to have given rise to the line of the Princes of Dol Amroth. We know that these princes had an elven ancestor through the encounter between Legolas and Imrahil:
    The problem with this is that not only is it an Unfinished Tale and therefore less canonical than other sources, even in the Unfinished Tale it is referred to as a legend and not fact. There is a contradictory passage in the Silmarillion which declares that the blood of the elves came into Men only through the descendants of Earendil and Elwing. Both cannot be true. I think it is best to err on the side of the Silmarillion.
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  8. #8
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    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fionnuala View Post
    It is, of course, not certain that this is true since the descendents of Earendil and Elwing are the only half-elven in the lore (and it is highly likely that there never were any others). We just don't have any other examples. Still, it seems to me that any other half-elven would default to Man in their nature and would not be immortal.
    So it would seem, considering that the men of Dol Amroth were just that. But anyways, you are correct, it seems the choice of fates is not tied to the nature of a half-elf, but rather to the decree put upon Eärendil and his descendants by Manwë.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fionnuala View Post
    The problem with this is that not only is it an Unfinished Tale and therefore less canonical than other sources, even in the Unfinished Tale it is referred to as a legend and not fact. There is a contradictory passage in the Silmarillion which declares that the blood of the elves came into Men only through the descendants of Earendil and Elwing. Both cannot be true. I think it is best to err on the side of the Silmarillion.
    I would be willing to state that both are true, but only in the sense that they represent differing conceptions of the same legendarium. At any rate, that was the reason I qualified my assertions by giving the quote from The Lord of the Rings. Regardless of what The Silmarillion states, the passage in The Lord of the Rings stands firm and suggests that even if the union of Mithrelass and Imrazôr was but a legend, there was still some point of origin for the elven-blood in the line of Dol Amroth. And this, in turn, suggests a further union. Make of it what you will, but I'll take the canonicity of The Lord of the Rings over that of The Silmarillion.
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  9. #9
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    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    in FOTR if im not mistaken there is a scene where frodo is smitten / attracted to arwen's beauty. so i think its possible (from the hobbit side) to be attracted to elf.. but i still cannot guess how can a female elf can get attracted to a hobbit as they must looked like a children to them (although not as bad as dwarves)..

    what really attract arwen to aragorn ? in their first meeting its aragon who's smitten and arwen shown no sign of attraction.. yet in their 2nd meeting after galadriel dressed up aragorn with elven wear (tm) , only then arwen show interest..

    physical attraction / outward beauty ? or the glory of aragorn's lineage ?

  10. #10
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    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    Regardless, the Petty-dwarves had grown to hate the Sindar and their numbers continued to dwindle until only Mîm and his two sons were left.
    im a bit rusty , but isnt this MIM guy the one who betray beren and luthien ?

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    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    im a bit rusty , but isnt this MIM guy the one who betray beren and luthien ?
    Close, but not quite.

    Mîm figures in the story of Turin. He lived at Amon Rudh. Turin and his group of outlaws found him one day, and in exchange for his life he ended up sheltering them in his caves. One day he was captured by Orcs and did the same thing (trading knowledge of his home for his life), thus betraying Turin and his company.

    Eventually Hurin finds him and kills him, as payment for all that happened to Turin his son.




    Thinking about this makes me want to get out of work soon! The Children of Hurin is waiting for me at home (just got it delivered today)!
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    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MataTahu View Post
    Close, but not quite.

    Mîm figures in the story of Turin. He lived at Amon Rudh. Turin and his group of outlaws found him one day, and in exchange for his life he ended up sheltering them in his caves. One day he was captured by Orcs and did the same thing (trading knowledge of his home for his life), thus betraying Turin and his company.

    Eventually Hurin finds him and kills him, as payment for all that happened to Turin his son.
    will we see this kind of ancient deformed dwarf inside LOTRO ?

  13. #13

    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    I doubt it as first Mim was the last of his people, and second Turbine does not have rights to info outside of The Hobbit and LOTR. However we do have the Dourhand dwarves, so you never know what they might be able to add in.
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  14. #14

    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MataTahu View Post
    Close, but not quite.

    Mîm figures in the story of Turin. He lived at Amon Rudh. Turin and his group of outlaws found him one day, and in exchange for his life he ended up sheltering them in his caves. One day he was captured by Orcs and did the same thing (trading knowledge of his home for his life), thus betraying Turin and his company.

    Eventually Hurin finds him and kills him, as payment for all that happened to Turin his son.




    Thinking about this makes me want to get out of work soon! The Children of Hurin is waiting for me at home (just got it delivered today)!
    Meh I find this all one sided lol. I believe one if not both of Nim's sons were murdered by Turin & Co. So Mim really couldn't be counted as loyal anyway... but hey he needs to live and who ever threatens it he must serve so yeah.
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    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattTheIndian View Post
    Meh I find this all one sided lol. I believe one if not both of Nim's sons were murdered by Turin & Co. So Mim really couldn't be counted as loyal anyway... but hey he needs to live and who ever threatens it he must serve so yeah.
    did tolkien ever write stuff like elf custom / mariage / sexuality ?
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  16. Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DPRIJADI1 View Post
    did tolkien ever write stuff like elf custom / mariage / sexuality ?
    Um.....uh......that's kinda what this thread is about. *cough*
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    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattTheIndian View Post
    Meh I find this all one sided lol. I believe one if not both of Nim's sons were murdered by Turin & Co. So Mim really couldn't be counted as loyal anyway... but hey he needs to live and who ever threatens it he must serve so yeah.
    Turin's archers fired into the trees after them, and one was killed. The other survived, I think until the orcs showed up.
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    Re: AnyAnyone know tolkien's lore toward Elf marriage ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspellgrey View Post
    I doubt it as first Mim was the last of his people, and second Turbine does not have rights to info outside of The Hobbit and LOTR. However we do have the Dourhand dwarves, so you never know what they might be able to add in.
    Mims' other son Ibun was unaccounted for prior to the publishing of "The children of Hurin", maybe his fate is cleared up in this book, (MERP had him founding a colony of petty dwarves in the Eryn Vorn).
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