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  1. #51
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    Jun 2007
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    imho if gandalf survive moria and the fellowship still intact up to mordor. i believe they will achieve their mission (destroying the One Ring) , but they will return to a destroyed civilization where saruman's orc devastate rohan and sauron's minion destroy gondor and southern areas..

  2. #52

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    It worked out in the end. The rest of the Fellowship escaped after Gandalf told them they were too low level. He stood his ground and decided to solo the Balrog, but then they both glitched and fell through the level. When the Balrog tried to flee up the Endless Stair, Gandalf put him on /follow. At the top he overcame the Balrog by utilizing an exploit, but was promptly booted from the server. Luckily, he was able to log back in using a backdoor in the system. He would have come back sooner, but when he hit the authentication server he timed out and was ultimately denied. So, he simply created a new account and all was well.

  3. #53
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by newwwwb View Post
    Rofl... Nice one there
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  4. #54

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GarethB View Post
    I'm not convinced that Denethor would have willingly accepted Aragorn as king. Denethor himself told Gandalf that he would not "be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart" and "I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity". Denethor had a very low opinion of Aragorn and in all likelyhood would have actively disputed Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor if Aragorn had made such a claim in front of Denethor.
    Lets not forget Denethor would have known Aragorn on sight, not as a ranger of the north but as Thorongil who had served his father and sacked Umbar. He was afraid of and disliked Thorongil for he was first in the heart of his father, and men at the time had deemed him a great captain by land and by sea. It was rumored in gondor Thorongil departed after the sacking of Umbar so as not to flame the rivalry with Denethor. I believe if they ever met face to face prior to Faramir's wounding he may have given up the rule of Gondor knowing who Aragorn was. In his maddened state he would have fought the rule of Isildur reincarnate himself I think.



    The five wizards are maia, "lesser angels" in flesh and blood. Their powers are limited while in those physical forms. This was deliberate, the wizards were sent to Middle Earth by powers higher than themselves (the Valar) with the purpose of counciling and advising the free peoples, not to be lords and masters of Middle Earth in their own right. The implication is that Gandalf the White is less limited in his use of his powers than when he was "grey" so in a sense he is more powerful, or at least he was able to use more of his natural "maia" power when he was white compared to when he was grey.
    I have never satisfactorily been convinced the wizards were limited in their power save for use against Sauron himself in direct combat. How else could Gandalf have cast down the Balrog without the full use of his faculty's? I beleive Gandalf used every power and weapon he had to defeat Durins Bane, as they were of the same "order" of power. And as Gandalf the white I believe he was given a greater charge, and no longer was forced to deal with the "mortal" folk if they impeded his task. (Hence the disarming and befuddlement of arguably three of the greatest hero's of the third age in Fangorn. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli) Still not allowed to use his power's for evil, or to face Sauron himself in combat.

    I'm inclined to disagree and say that Gandalf the Grey was less powerful than Gandalf the White. Saruman was able to capture and imprison Gandalf the Grey and it was only with outside help that Gandalf escaped that imprisonment. Saruman was clearly more powerful than Gandalf the Grey at that time. Gandalf the White broke Saruman's staff without any significant fight occouring, with the implication that Gandalf was actually breaking or perhaps in some way sealing Saruman's power so that Saruman would no longer be a significant threat to the free peoples. If Gandalf's power was the same when he was grey and when he was white, why did he become Saruman's prisoner when he was Grey and why was he able to so easily defeat Saruman when he was White?
    I agree with this theory wholeheartedly. Do we not believe the powers that sent Gandalf back had no knowledge of Saruman's treachery? His abandonment if his charge? I think not. I am sure one of Gandalf's charges was to deal with Saruman and as such was allowed to flex his muscle as needed. I really see no other reasonable explanation

  5. #55
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    anyone can shed a light on the fate of those blue wizard that was sent to the easterling land ?

    - did saruman killed them ?

    - did saruman corrupted them and recruit them to sauron ?

    - did they both got seduced by power and took over leadership/power in eastern regions ?



    as for the eastern regions , i still got these questions..

    - how big is eastern region's population and how civilized ? are they a mottley bunch of nomads and war-like tribes ?

    - they sent armies to attack dale / lonely mountain area and they sent armies to sauron.. Did Aragorn mount a revenge expedition after he was crowned king of gondour ?


    as for the istari :

    - After aragorn got crowned , he took the last boat and sail unto the west. He said his task is finished. so gandalf's task is only for middle earth ? what about the other regions like umbar/easterling ?

    - What happened to Ragadhast ?


    as for the other People in LOTR

    - Why Arwen loses her immortality when he married aragorn ? isnt she still an elf and still immortal ? why she died in lorien ? out of sadness/grief ?

    - Aragorn seem to 'choose' his own time of death , is this normal for a numenorian ?

    - Why Frodo and bilbo granted passage into the west ? did they live forever there ? or they lived out their remaining years there ? do ordinary people got longer lifespan there ? IIRC frodo is not married when he sailed to the west so could he marry an elf there ?

    - Why Gimli granted passage into the west ? iirc gimli is very kind and courteous to lady of the woods.. but is that all ?

    - Why not all member of the fellowship granted passage to the west ? like Sam, Pippin and Merry ?

  6. #56

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    anyone can shed a light on the fate of those blue wizard that was sent to the easterling land ?

    ---- Tolkien never tells us, in his letters he initially thinks they failed but later in his life he changes his mind and says they were successful. Most likely they helped keep some unknown eastern kingdoms out of Sauron's grip.



    as for the eastern regions , i still got these questions..

    - how big is eastern region's population and how civilized ? are they a mottley bunch of nomads and war-like tribes ?
    ----- no one knows, Tolkien only says that elves and men originally awoke somewhere in the east and he mentions invasions into Gondor from the east earlier in the Third Age.

    - they sent armies to attack dale / lonely mountain area and they sent armies to sauron.. Did Aragorn mount a revenge expedition after he was crowned king of gondour ?
    ----- Tolkien makes a statement about the flags of Gondor and Rohan fighting together in foreign fields after the War of the Ring. Aragorn would not be into revenge but it's assumed he would protect his kingdom and perhaps settle some border issues with the Harad or Umbar.


    as for the istari :

    - After aragorn got crowned , he took the last boat and sail unto the west. He said his task is finished. so gandalf's task is only for middle earth ? what about the other regions like umbar/easterling ?
    ----- their mission was to inspire the free peoples to resist Sauron not to be a general referee between disputes between various kingdoms. Once Sauron was no further threat they were finished.

    - What happened to Ragadhast ?
    ----- Tolkien doesn't reveal.

    as for the other People in LOTR

    - Why Arwen loses her immortality when he married aragorn ? isnt she still an elf and still immortal ? why she died in lorien ? out of sadness/grief ?
    ------ she was half-elven like Elrond and able to make a choice as to which kindred she would accept the fate of, elvish imortality with it's fading and withdrawal into the west or man's mortality.

    - Aragorn seem to 'choose' his own time of death , is this normal for a numenorian ?
    ------ it was. This was part of the fall of Numenor, a desire to extend life, jealousy of the elves and Valar immortality, this set them up for Sauron's eventual machinations.

    - Why Frodo and bilbo granted passage into the west ? did they live forever there ? or they lived out their remaining years there ? do ordinary people got longer lifespan there ? IIRC frodo is not married when he sailed to the west so could he marry an elf there ?
    ------ Mainly because they were ring-bearers and could never find peace in the mortal lands anymore. It's suggested that Arwen essentially "gave up her seat" to Frodo by marrying Aragorn but Tolkien also says in a letter that Gandalf, being a Maiar, would be able to "arrange" for mortals like Bilbo and Frodo to have passage. Tolkien states that the valar cannot confer immortality on anyone as that is Illuvatar's "gift". Tolkien suggests that a mortal living in the west might actually burn out faster. There were very few man/elf unions, a hobbit/elf union is not likely either.

    - Why Gimli granted passage into the west ? iirc gimli is very kind and courteous to lady of the woods.. but is that all ?
    ------ it's suggested that because he loved Galadriel that much that she may have been able to arrange for Gimli to be allowed to see his "lady" once more. Tolkien's not specific however. Gimli wasn't just kind and courteous, after leaving Lorien he was ready to defend her to the death, as is seen when Eomer makes a comment about the sorceress in the Golden Wood.

    - Why not all member of the fellowship granted passage to the west ? like Sam, Pippin and Merry ?
    ------ Sam did take a ship after his wife died. Sam was a ringbearer also for a short period and his being able to go west would have made both Sam and Frodo happy. Merry and Pippen never touched the Ring so didn't really "qualify" so to speak, also they were very Middle-earth bound and quite happy to spend their final years in Rohan and Gondor. By the way, Tolkien believed Shadowfax took the ship with Gandalf rather than be separated.
    [FONT=Trebuchet MS]"You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81


    [/FONT]

  7. #57
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Rather than thinking of the five wizards according to a 'power ranking', I have always thought of them as being sent to Middle-earth with different tasks and skills.

    Saruman's strengths were in his pursuasiveness, knowledge of lore, and political insight.
    Gandalf's strengths were in tactics, strategy and warfare.
    Radagast was the master of nature.
    Other than the confrontation between Saruman and Gandalf, I don't know of any other direct conflict between the wizards to use as a guage of power.

    I don't believe that Illuvatar expected the wizards to conflict among themselves, but to perform specific tasks with skills designed to accentuate and be successful in those tasks.

    Rather than thinking of the wizards as A>B>C I have always considered them as having different skills, more like A=/ B=/ C.

    Disclaimer: It has been quite some time since I read the Silmarilion and I am not an expert, these are just my feelings from reading the books.
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  8. #58
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    Mar 2007
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    What would happen if Gandalf didnt kill the balrog.. the balrog fell down the bridge and gandalf didnt fall..

    will the fellowship still succed ?

    considering :

    - no kidnapping thus no meeting with ents ?
    - Isengard is not attacked
    - Gandalf is still grey not white

    what you think ?
    It was absolutely necessary. Kind of like Christ dying for everyone in the world. It wasn't a fun or pleasant thing, but it had to happen.

  9. #59
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    Apr 2007
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    918

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    It worked out in the end. The rest of the Fellowship escaped after Gandalf told them they were too low level. He stood his ground and decided to solo the Balrog, but then they both glitched and fell through the level. When the Balrog tried to flee up the Endless Stair, Gandalf put him on /follow. At the top he overcame the Balrog by utilizing an exploit, but was promptly booted from the server. Luckily, he was able to log back in using a backdoor in the system. He would have come back sooner, but when he hit the authentication server he timed out and was ultimately denied. So, he simply created a new account and all was well.
    This reminds me of a couple old EQ classics. I found one, and will post the others if I can find them (assuming they still exists on the interwebz)

    http://www.vlodnak.com/mbs/topic.asp...e&TOPIC_ID=663

    http://www.eq2flames.com/everything-...everquest.html

  10. #60
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    Jun 2007
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    what is gandalf's real form ? is he really an elf in disguise ? did he changed back to his original form when he sailed into the west ? (to the suprise of bilbo and frodo)..

  11. #61

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    No he was not an elf in disguise he was a Maia, an angelic being, I believe that he can choose to look like anything he wishes once he is done with his task in Middle-Earth so he would most likely appear in his old man form to Frodo and Bilbo, but he could appear as an elf, dwarf, or even as a hobbit. I also seem to recall that the Valar and Maiar could just travel around invisible as well.

 

 
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