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  1. #26

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    That would most likely be because while Gandalf is one person, he is a Maia and in that sense a very powerful person. The Balrog was not a beast, but another Maia(that is in a general sense an angelic being, though in the Balrogs case a fallen one) so it was intelligent, and very powerful. Gandalf was able to beat it, but only at a high cost to himself(his death) but like he said to the fellowship, this was a foe beyond their skills. So while I am sure the dwarves put up a good fight(and I seem to recall Moria took quite a while to fall initially to the Balrog) they were ultimately defeated.

  2. #27
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    I don't think that the ring would have been destroyed if Gandalf had not fallen in Moria. If he had not fallen, Frodo and Sam would not have left the fellowship and a larger group in Moria would have been easily spotted and captured.
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  3. #28
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspellgrey View Post
    That would most likely be because while Gandalf is one person, he is a Maia and in that sense a very powerful person. The Balrog was not a beast, but another Maia(that is in a general sense an angelic being, though in the Balrogs case a fallen one) so it was intelligent, and very powerful. Gandalf was able to beat it, but only at a high cost to himself(his death) but like he said to the fellowship, this was a foe beyond their skills. So while I am sure the dwarves put up a good fight(and I seem to recall Moria took quite a while to fall initially to the Balrog) they were ultimately defeated.
    but if ... if.. the whole army of gondor attacked 1 balrog.. will it still prevail over them ?

    and if gandalf can kill a super being like balrog, then no one in middle earth can defeat gandalf ?

  4. #29
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    one of the niggling stuff in my mind is this : it take just 1 person, gandalf to beat the balrog.. how come the WHOLE dwarf army inside moria cannot kill it ? with their engineering skill the dwarves can make heavy weapons to kill the beast easily or trapped it below the mines
    Welcome to heroic fantasy literature.

  5. #30
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by BIGeyedBUG View Post
    Welcome to heroic fantasy literature.
    balrog should lay off the /godmode button

  6. #31
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    balrog should lay off the /godmode button
    It worked out in the end. The rest of the Fellowship escaped after Gandalf told them they were too low level. He stood his ground and decided to solo the Balrog, but then they both glitched and fell through the level. When the Balrog tried to flee up the Endless Stair, Gandalf put him on /follow. At the top he overcame the Balrog by utilizing an exploit, but was promptly booted from the server. Luckily, he was able to log back in using a backdoor in the system. He would have come back sooner, but when he hit the authentication server he timed out and was ultimately denied. So, he simply created a new account and all was well.
    Last edited by Reddhawk; Apr 17 2009 at 03:39 PM.

  7. #32
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    It worked out in the end. The rest of the Fellowship escaped after Gandalf told them they were too low level. He stood his ground and decided to solo the Balrog, but then they both glitched and fell through the level. When the Balrog tried to flee up the Endless Stair, Gandalf put him on /follow. At the top he overcame the Balrog by utilizing an exploit, but was promptly booted from the server. Luckily, he was able to log back in using a backdoor in the system. He would have come back sooner, but when he hit the authentication server he timed out and was ultimately denied. So, he simply created a new account and all was well.
    LOL Redd.

  8. Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    It worked out in the end. The rest of the Fellowship escaped after Gandalf told them they were too low level. He stood his ground and decided to solo the Balrog, but then they both glitched and fell through the level. When the Balrog tried to flee up the Endless Stair, Gandalf put him on /follow. At the top he overcame the Balrog by utilizing an exploit, but was promptly booted from the server. Luckily, he was able to log back in using a backdoor in the system. He would have come back sooner, but when he hit the authentication server he timed out and was ultimately denied. So, he simply created a new account and all was well.
    Congratulations, you have proven yourself a nerd on multiple levels.

    I'm so jealous right now..... :-)

  9. #34
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    but if ... if.. the whole army of gondor attacked 1 balrog.. will it still prevail over them ?

    and if gandalf can kill a super being like balrog, then no one in middle earth can defeat gandalf ?
    One misconception people have is that they (the Balrogs) were all dragon like monstrous beasts that were walking torches. The truth is different though. This link from above shows this in a way.. http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=254160. Durins bane was an exception. He is described as a great beast. His wings "spanned the cavern" but were more wisps of darkness and flame. His wings weren't exactly meant for flying.

    Armies of men and elves, and dwarves in a few cases (less though for they were concerned little about Morgoth, and had more trouble with dragons) have defeated balrogs. An entire host in a few cases. But the power of men and elves were Greatly diminished in the third age. The whole host of Gondor would probably be smeared by a Balrog, especially Durin's Bane, whom, though was not the greatest of the Balrogs, certainly wasn't among the least. Many balrogs though only amounted to the look/ size of a giant. (more sinister yes, but similar) A few even said to be Man sized. They are Maia, angels if you will, with certain goals. The Balrogs were merely "fallen" Maia. (A good comparison would be the Fallen Angels... or Demons... from the Bible)

    The Wizards were also Maia, sent into Middle Earth long after its creation, with the purpose to aid the inhabitants against evil such as Melkor. There were 5 wizards sent, only three are actually mentioned in detail. Gandalf the Grey, the wanderer. Saruman the white, "the wise", and leader of the council. Then Radagast the Brown, whom spent his time tending to the nature of Middle Earth. His greatest allies were among the Eagles and the kin of Beorn, more than those of Men and Elves. I've hear speculation that there was the "Black Wizard", whom became Sauron, but that's about as confirmed as Tom Bambadil being Illuvitar.

    Also... on how to kill a wizard... such as Gandalf. The actual feat is daunting, yet easy. While extremely powerful, Gandalf couldn't throw his power around lightly. The wizards were bound by a set of "rules". A simple way to put this was, the Valar sent the wizards to do a job, but gave them a rule book, that if broken would expell them from the council, and possible 'break' them. Think of the Wizard's power as being on an electrical fuse. If they drew too much power, their power would stop because they broke the fuse. (more or less, they probably weren't even allowed to draw that much power). There were exceptions... such as, although Gandalf isn't allowed to kill thousands of orcs with a well worded spell, if he was fighting a creature of similar power, he could match that creatures power.

    That's just a simple way of saying that gandalf can kill some of the mightiest foes in the World, yet still be felled by a well placed blade of a foot soldier.

    There is a ton more to this, but I'd need to read the Silmarillion again to remember all the little details.

    *Disclaimer* While I am a Tolkien Junkie... I'm not the most knowledgeable in all his works. If there are some mistakes here, feel free to correct them with evidence from the books.

  10. #35
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avyn View Post
    Here is another question? Is Gandalf "The White" that much more powerful then Gandalf "The Grey"? Did any of the books state that by becoming "The White" that you gained more power? After all, Gandalf "The Grey" struck down the Balrog....at the cost of his own life, yes, but slay it he did, that is an awful lot of power.
    Remember though, ordinary elves (heh, can an elf be considered *ordinary*?) killed off hundreds of them in the 1st age. Killing a balrog was a great deed, but its not like he was the first to do it. I mean, an elf did battle with the balrogs master (Morgoth) and gave him 7 mortal wounds before being struck down. Granted, he was an elven king, but still.
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  11. #36
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk9 View Post
    I've hear speculation that there was the "Black Wizard", whom became Sauron, but that's about as confirmed as Tom Bambadil being Illuvitar.
    Unless I'm mistaken, you're speaking of the Necromancer from the Hobbit, who we later learn was Sauron, hiding out in Dol Guldur. It has also been said that Gandalf was the only wizard who didn't fail in his task. Saruman fell completely, by turning to evil ways, while Radagast wandered off the path a bit. The Blue Wizards fate was unknown, however we know they went off into the East and attempted to turn people away from worshipping Sauron/Morgoth. Their success is unkown.






    e.h.b

  12. #37
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by e_h_b View Post
    Unless I'm mistaken, you're speaking of the Necromancer from the Hobbit, who we later learn was Sauron, hiding out in Dol Guldur. It has also been said that Gandalf was the only wizard who didn't fail in his task. Saruman fell completely, by turning to evil ways, while Radagast wandered off the path a bit. The Blue Wizards fate was unknown, however we know they went off into the East and attempted to turn people away from worshipping Sauron/Morgoth. Their success is unkown.






    e.h.b
    assuming saruman and ragadhast didnt fall from their duties, will they survive one on one combat with the Balrog ? im under impression that ragadhast can call help from animal kingdom to fight the balrog.. having herds of oliphaunt smacking the balrog must be fun to watch.. as for saruman i dont know.. in my mind i always see saruman as a political fighter, not mud n grass fighter like gandolf

  13. #38

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    I can't see any animals willingly attack a balrog and I doubt Radagast would force them to. Even a herd of Oliphaunts would likely flee in terror once that flaming whip came out (if you could figure out a way to get them into Moria and over that narrow bridge in the first place )

    Saruman would likely try to cut a deal, join me and here's what I'll do for you...
    [FONT=Trebuchet MS]"You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81


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  14. #39

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Balrogs were never really that big of a deal kind of like trolls in the days of now... I mean Durin's Bane grew to be stronger... while the races declined... If it was Durin the First that Balrog would have been a rug and it even seems like dwarves were originally built to kill Balrogs, Dragons and even Melkor... "And Aule made the dwarves even as they are.... and because the power of Melkor was yet over the earth; and he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding." ... but Durin the VII by this time just wasn't as strong nor were the elves (And Durin the VII gave a pretty good fight by himslef)who beat own balrogs for fun poor old Fingon was beatin' some down when he got ganked and then smashed into dust . and really The Elves of Lorien never really were fighters... I mean look at the Last Alliance... they were described as having lame armor lol. and yeah... I always thought the wizards failed harshly... They didn't return to ME until after Sauron was defeated and were pretty much charged with finding and destroying him but alas one betrayed his charge two wandered off one kinda sorta helped but not that much... and the other well Gandalf helped but I always thought he could've done more but felt people had to earn their own and stop bugging the Valar for help... And besides Gandalf didn't do much until the time of the hobbit.
    Last edited by MattTheIndian; Apr 19 2009 at 04:28 AM.

  15. #40
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    any background story why the balrog stays inside moria even after he was found by the dwarves ? he could go somewhere else... if he went away lets say to mordor, then it will be the death of gondor.. imagine if that balrog leading sauron's army ..

  16. #41
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    If Gandalf the Grey, or White later, had wielded the ring instead, how would that have effected the quest? How could that have changed the fight with the Balrog?

  17. Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Isamrot View Post
    If Gandalf the Grey, or White later, had wielded the ring instead, how would that have effected the quest? How could that have changed the fight with the Balrog?
    It would have made the fight easier, but Gandalf won it without the Ring, so then it becomes a question about what Gandalf would do if he took possession of the Ring; and the answer would be he would have become another Sauron.

  18. #43

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattTheIndian View Post
    Balrogs were never really that big of a deal kind of like trolls in the days of now... I mean Durin's Bane grew to be stronger... while the races declined... If it was Durin the First that Balrog would have been a rug and it even seems like dwarves were originally built to kill Balrogs, Dragons and even Melkor... "And Aule made the dwarves even as they are.... and because the power of Melkor was yet over the earth; and he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding." ... but Durin the VII by this time just wasn't as strong nor were the elves (And Durin the VII gave a pretty good fight by himslef)who beat own balrogs for fun poor old Fingon was beatin' some down when he got ganked and then smashed into dust . and really The Elves of Lorien never really were fighters... I mean look at the Last Alliance... they were described as having lame armor lol. and yeah... I always thought the wizards failed harshly... They didn't return to ME until after Sauron was defeated and were pretty much charged with finding and destroying him but alas one betrayed his charge two wandered off one kinda sorta helped but not that much... and the other well Gandalf helped but I always thought he could've done more but felt people had to earn their own and stop bugging the Valar for help... And besides Gandalf didn't do much until the time of the hobbit.
    Let's see, in the Silmarillion Balrogs beat off Ungoliant when she was attacking Melkor, slew Feanor, killed Fingon and were the leading force in the destruction of the city of Gondolin. It's also said that only the mightiest of the Eldar or the Valar could hope to fight them. No ordinary warriors or weapons could withstand them. In fact every character said to have defeated or even fought a Balrog died as a result.

    Aule created the dwarves because he was impatient for the arrival of the Children of Illuvatar. Yes they were made tough but not indestuctible. I don't know where you're getting the idea that they could take on a balrog, let alone Melkor, one of the mightiest of the Valar. This would not have been in the power of Aule to bestow. If fact, until Illuvatar intervened, his dwarves were not even self-knowing incarnate indepentant creatures, more like mindless automatons that would only do as Aule directed. Only Illuvatar had the ability to give a creature that spark of life or soul, however you want to describe it. When the dwarves unleashed Durin's bane, they were doomed from the start, it was beyond their power even en masse.

    The elves of Lorien - where does it say they had sub-standard armour ? I daresay "lame" is a word JRRT would never use, even in casual conversation, unless it was in reference to a person with one bad leg. Granted few of them were likely running around in heavy armour but try climbing trees with that stuff on. Their armour was suitable to their needs being heavily weighted towards stealth and archery. Lorien withstood three major assaults of Orcs from Dol Guldur in the War of the Ring and finally crossed the river and destroyed Dol Guldur. This is mentioned in the book but not described in detail. The movies ignored it completely.

    The Wizards arrived after Sauron was defeated in the Last Alliance but not destroyed. As long as the Ring existed Sauron had the ability to reshape and return. Their mission was to contest the power of Sauron and unite the free peoples to resist him but they were forbidden to match power with power or try to dominate people through force or fear. They were not on a search and destroy mission. As individual beings they had a basic freedom of choice to succeed or fail. Gandalf did much over the years but because he folowed the rules of his mission, much of it was subtle in nature. He twice entered Dol Guldur to try to discover the identity of the Necromancer for example.
    [FONT=Trebuchet MS]"You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81


    [/FONT]

  19. #44

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    any background story why the balrog stays inside moria even after he was found by the dwarves ? he could go somewhere else... if he went away lets say to mordor, then it will be the death of gondor.. imagine if that balrog leading sauron's army ..
    The balrog fled from the destruction of Angband at the end of the First Age. I think he was laying low until the return of Morgoth, his true master. There's no mention in the Silmarillion of Sauron and the Balrogs having any interaction, they may have been only loyal to Morgoth and no lesser Lieutenant. At any rate, once the dwarves woke him it was inevitable that one or the other had to go. The dwarves really didn't have a chance. Once they left Moria the Balrog didn't need to go anywhere as the Orcs that took over the upper levels were a kind of early-warning system if the dwarves ever tried to return.
    [FONT=Trebuchet MS]"You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81


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  20. #45

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by tuor66 View Post
    The elves of Lorien - where does it say they had sub-standard armour ? I daresay "lame" is a word JRRT would never use, even in casual conversation, unless it was in reference to a person with one bad leg. Granted few of them were likely running around in heavy armour but try climbing trees with that stuff on. Their armour was suitable to their needs being heavily weighted towards stealth and archery. Lorien withstood three major assaults of Orcs from Dol Guldur in the War of the Ring and finally crossed the river and destroyed Dol Guldur. This is mentioned in the book but not described in detail. The movies ignored it completely.

    The Wizards arrived after Sauron was defeated in the Last Alliance but not destroyed. As long as the Ring existed Sauron had the ability to reshape and return. Their mission was to contest the power of Sauron and unite the free peoples to resist him but they were forbidden to match power with power or try to dominate people through force or fear. They were not on a search and destroy mission. As individual beings they had a basic freedom of choice to succeed or fail. Gandalf did much over the years but because he folowed the rules of his mission, much of it was subtle in nature. He twice entered Dol Guldur to try to discover the identity of the Necromancer for example.
    In 3434, Amdir responded to a summons from Gil-galad to join the fight against Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance. Amdir's forces were valiant, but they were poorly equipped for battle. At the Battle of Dagorlad, they were cut off from their allies and were driven into the marshland west of the Black Gate. Amdir and more than half his troops were killed. The marshland became known as the Dead Marshes because of the corpses of Elves, Men, and Orcs who perished there.

    mostly because i dont feel like sorting through the books to find the actual page # so i'm just gonna use a website http://www.tuckborough.net/elves.html.

    and of course the balrogs were strong and I'm not saying that any warrior could destroy them but the mightier ones could. Even the Balrogs were afraid of Fingolfin, and If Fingon was seperated from the rest of the battle I'm sure he would've survived many a year later. And yes I know Aule didn't give the dwarves their spark but he did design them to live in harsh enviroments among melkor's minions... and even the elves considered the dwarves to be a strong force hell they nearly killed off Glaurung and this (coming from the hobbit yes but w/e) "Dwarves are exceptionally strong for their height, but most of these were strong even for dwarves." I'm just saying If Durin's bane appeared in the first age he would've been slain.

    And yes Gandalf did enter DG but like I said it was during the time of the hobbit.... where was he while Saruman was in the east? No one seems to know where he was I'm sure he gathered intel but for thousands of years? And yes he did visit Rohan and Gondor during that time but besides counsel he really didn't do much. Which I suppose was following his charge... but like I said I just felt he could've done more... and same with the blue wizards and Radagast but who knows maybe if it weren't for the blue wizards Sauron's army would've been 10 times the size. .
    Last edited by MattTheIndian; Apr 20 2009 at 02:28 PM.

  21. #46
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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    one of the niggling stuff in my mind is this : it take just 1 person, gandalf to beat the balrog.. how come the WHOLE dwarf army inside moria cannot kill it ? with their engineering skill the dwarves can make heavy weapons to kill the beast easily or trapped it below the mines
    Gandalf was a Maia,(angelic being) in human form, thats what made the differance.

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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Gandalf makes it clear after he is 're-born' as the White that he is being allowed to use his innate abilities more openly than before, and is thus more powerful than he was as the Grey.

    He tells Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli that none of their weapons could even harm him. I always got the distinct impression that Gandalf the White was nigh-untouchable by mortal foes.

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    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greythorne View Post
    Gandalf makes it clear after he is 're-born' as the White that he is being allowed to use his innate abilities more openly than before, and is thus more powerful than he was as the Grey.

    He tells Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli that none of their weapons could even harm him. I always got the distinct impression that Gandalf the White was nigh-untouchable by mortal foes.
    Would this mean that a Black Wizard would come with no restrictions?

  24. Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Isamrot View Post
    Would this mean that a Black Wizard would come with no restrictions?
    No. Not even Saruman could show his full power. It appears that there was an irrevocable limit placed upon the Istari, but perhaps there was a little leeway they could fudge with.

  25. #50

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avyn View Post
    Not sure. More then likely, the entire Fellowship would have made to atleast the Black Gates of Mordor. But what would have happened after that is anyone's guess. I doubt Gollum would have approached them with the Nine, so they would not have known about the "secret" entrance into Mordor. More then likely, Aragorn, would have gone to Gondor, and maybe convinced the Steward (with Boromir's Help) to lend some troops and then would have caused a distraction to allow Frodo to slip through.
    I'm not convinced that Denethor would have willingly accepted Aragorn as king. Denethor himself told Gandalf that he would not "be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart" and "I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity". Denethor had a very low opinion of Aragorn and in all likelyhood would have actively disputed Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor if Aragorn had made such a claim in front of Denethor.

    Here is another question? Is Gandalf "The White" that much more powerful then Gandalf "The Grey"? Did any of the books state that by becoming "The White" that you gained more power? After all, Gandalf "The Grey" struck down the Balrog....at the cost of his own life, yes, but slay it he did, that is an awful lot of power.
    The five wizards are maia, "lesser angels" in flesh and blood. Their powers are limited while in those physical forms. This was deliberate, the wizards were sent to Middle Earth by powers higher than themselves (the Valar) with the purpose of counciling and advising the free peoples, not to be lords and masters of Middle Earth in their own right. The implication is that Gandalf the White is less limited in his use of his powers than when he was "grey" so in a sense he is more powerful, or at least he was able to use more of his natural "maia" power when he was white compared to when he was grey.

    I read nothing that would lead me to believe that "The White" Gandalf was any more powerful then "The Grey" Gandalf. It is only our own perceptions that one was more powerful then the other.
    I'm inclined to disagree and say that Gandalf the Grey was less powerful than Gandalf the White. Saruman was able to capture and imprison Gandalf the Grey and it was only with outside help that Gandalf escaped that imprisonment. Saruman was clearly more powerful than Gandalf the Grey at that time. Gandalf the White broke Saruman's staff without any significant fight occouring, with the implication that Gandalf was actually breaking or perhaps in some way sealing Saruman's power so that Saruman would no longer be a significant threat to the free peoples. If Gandalf's power was the same when he was grey and when he was white, why did he become Saruman's prisoner when he was Grey and why was he able to so easily defeat Saruman when he was White?

 

 
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