We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 61
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    89

    What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    What would happen if Gandalf didnt kill the balrog.. the balrog fell down the bridge and gandalf didnt fall..

    will the fellowship still succed ?

    considering :

    - no kidnapping thus no meeting with ents ?
    - Isengard is not attacked
    - Gandalf is still grey not white

    what you think ?

  2. Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    The events in LOTR are so intertwined with each other, and each with unforseeable consequences that I doubt one could change even a minor detail and still expect the Ring to be destroyed. Rohan would have fallen, no reinforcements would have come to Pelannor, and Gondor would have fallen. Alos, Gandalf the White battled with Sauron in a game of wills to distract the Eye of Sauron while Frodo had the Ring on during the snafu at Amon Hen. I doubt Gandalf the Grey could have done that.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620500000009263b/01003/signature.png]Arasilion[/charsig]

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    89

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    The events in LOTR are so intertwined with each other, and each with unforseeable consequences that I doubt one could change even a minor detail and still expect the Ring to be destroyed. Rohan would have fallen, no reinforcements would have come to Pelannor, and Gondor would have fallen. Alos, Gandalf the White battled with Sauron in a game of wills to distract the Eye of Sauron while Frodo had the Ring on during the snafu at Amon Hen. I doubt Gandalf the Grey could have done that.
    so its possible that if gandalf survived, their mission can still be accomplished (destroying the ring) but the whole world is burning.. thus a phyric victory ?

  4. #4

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Not sure. More then likely, the entire Fellowship would have made to atleast the Black Gates of Mordor. But what would have happened after that is anyone's guess. I doubt Gollum would have approached them with the Nine, so they would not have known about the "secret" entrance into Mordor. More then likely, Aragorn, would have gone to Gondor, and maybe convinced the Steward (with Boromir's Help) to lend some troops and then would have caused a distraction to allow Frodo to slip through.

    Here is another question? Is Gandalf "The White" that much more powerful then Gandalf "The Grey"? Did any of the books state that by becoming "The White" that you gained more power? After all, Gandalf "The Grey" struck down the Balrog....at the cost of his own life, yes, but slay it he did, that is an awful lot of power.

    Also even becoming Gandalf "The White", Gandalf wasn't given an ability to see future or even current events in far off lands. He was still left in the dark as to how Frodo and Samwise were doing, and even if they were still alive. He was only guessing.

    I read nothing that would lead me to believe that "The White" Gandalf was any more powerful then "The Grey" Gandalf. It is only our own perceptions that one was more powerful then the other.
    Rosaline: Woman Burglar (85)
    Verem: Man Guardian (85)
    Aldros: Man Captain (84)
    [b]DBS Blacksheep[/b] (Meneldor)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    2,884

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    The Balrog would still have been alive, as well. As you remember, he only finally died when Gandalf threw him off the mountainside.

    So there's a good chance that Sauron would have a new, very powerful ally.
    [B][COLOR=red]Turn[/COLOR] - Guardian
    [COLOR=red]Balandolen[/COLOR] - Lore-master
    [COLOR=red]Turnholm[/COLOR] - Minstrel

    [/B]

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    89

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avyn View Post
    Not sure. More then likely, the entire Fellowship would have made to atleast the Black Gates of Mordor. But what would have happened after that is anyone's guess. I doubt Gollum would have approached them with the Nine, so they would not have known about the "secret" entrance into Mordor. More then likely, Aragorn, would have gone to Gondor, and maybe convinced the Steward (with Boromir's Help) to lend some troops and then would have caused a distraction to allow Frodo to slip through.

    Here is another question? Is Gandalf "The White" that much more powerful then Gandalf "The Grey"? Did any of the books state that by becoming "The White" that you gained more power? After all, Gandalf "The Grey" struck down the Balrog....at the cost of his own life, yes, but slay it he did, that is an awful lot of power.

    Also even becoming Gandalf "The White", Gandalf wasn't given an ability to see future or even current events in far off lands. He was still left in the dark as to how Frodo and Samwise were doing, and even if they were still alive. He was only guessing.

    I read nothing that would lead me to believe that "The White" Gandalf was any more powerful then "The Grey" Gandalf. It is only our own perceptions that one was more powerful then the other.
    how powerful is gandalf? i mean can anyone withstand/fight a balrog ?

  7. #7

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    how powerful is gandalf? i mean can anyone withstand/fight a balrog ?
    Most would not be able to fight a balrog, with any success. But a few did.

    Ecthelion the Fountain, IIRC slew three balrogs before fighting Gothmog, the Lord of the Balrogs.

    In that final fight, with both arms injured, Ectehlion drove the spike on his helmet into Gothmog's chest killing him as Gothmog himself dealt a fatal blow to Ecthelion.
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    http://cruciblegaming.com

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ohio, where we never have any adventures or do anything unexpected
    Posts
    4,646

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    how powerful is gandalf? i mean can anyone withstand/fight a balrog ?
    No. In every case of a Balrog being slain in single combat, the combatant fighting it is also killed. You have Ecthelion, Glorfindel, and Gandalf:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Silmarillion
    Of the deeds of desperate valour there done, [. . .] much is told in The Fall of Gondolin: of the battle of Ecthelion of the Fountain with Gothmog Lord of Balrogs in the very square of the King, where each slew the other...
    Quote Originally Posted by The Silmarillion
    Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel* with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Two Towers
    I threw down my enemy [the Balrog, Durin's Bane], and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.
    * Glorfindel is the same elf that aids Frodo on the road to Rivendell. Like Gandalf, he was later reincarnated and sent back to Middle-earth.
    [COLOR=yellowgreen][B]"Pure creation is like a vacation."[/B][/COLOR]
    [INDENT]- Welby of Landroval[/INDENT]

  9. #9

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    No. In every case of a Balrog being slain in single combat, the combatant fighting it is also killed. You have Ecthelion, Glorfindel, and Gandalf
    Did not Ecthelion kill other Balrogs before he did combat with Gothmog? I thought this was the case - but I don't recall for certain.
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    http://cruciblegaming.com

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ohio, where we never have any adventures or do anything unexpected
    Posts
    4,646

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigram View Post
    Did not Ecthelion kill other Balrogs before he did combat with Gothmog? I thought this was the case - but I don't recall for certain.
    You are correct. My mistake. Regardless, Ecthelion was still killed in single combat against a Balrog, so it is true that all such combatants fell. It would just appear that Ecthelion was able to last a bit longer than the rest.
    [COLOR=yellowgreen][B]"Pure creation is like a vacation."[/B][/COLOR]
    [INDENT]- Welby of Landroval[/INDENT]

  11. #11

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    You are correct. My mistake. Regardless, Ecthelion was still killed in single combat against a Balrog, so it is true that all such combatants fell. It would just appear that Ecthelion was able to last a bit longer than the rest.

    It is my opinion that Ecthelion was one BAMF, for an elf anyway.
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    http://cruciblegaming.com

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    89

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    how different is the balrog in simaliron and the balrog in FOTR ?

    i read the book and it seem the balrog in the book is smaller than the movie balrog and it can use spell (to counter spell gandalf's spell).. in the movie , balrog is depicted as flaming mindless giant brute..

    btw what happen when they both fell down ? the book only give hint about the terrible place in the deep of the world.. even the balrog got scared and fled the place with gandalf following him..

    anyone in LOTRO:MORIA can confirm , is that place also in the MORIA expansion ?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    89

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MataTahu View Post
    The Balrog would still have been alive, as well. As you remember, he only finally died when Gandalf threw him off the mountainside.

    So there's a good chance that Sauron would have a new, very powerful ally.
    unless sauron's messenger contact the balrog, i never read anyone from mordor contacting the balrog and inviting it to join sauron's army.

    what the lore said about this ? did the balrog submit to sauron rule ? or is it a wild balrog who only recoghnize melkor as its master ?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ohio, where we never have any adventures or do anything unexpected
    Posts
    4,646

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    anyone in LOTRO:MORIA can confirm , is that place also in the MORIA expansion ?
    Yes indeed, it's called The Foundations of Stone.


    As for your other questions, you may want to read this thread: tiny, wimpier Balrogs in earlier times?
    [COLOR=yellowgreen][B]"Pure creation is like a vacation."[/B][/COLOR]
    [INDENT]- Welby of Landroval[/INDENT]

  15. #15

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    how different is the balrog in simaliron and the balrog in FOTR ?

    i read the book and it seem the balrog in the book is smaller than the movie balrog and it can use spell (to counter spell gandalf's spell).. in the movie , balrog is depicted as flaming mindless giant brute..

    btw what happen when they both fell down ? the book only give hint about the terrible place in the deep of the world.. even the balrog got scared and fled the place with gandalf following him..

    anyone in LOTRO:MORIA can confirm , is that place also in the MORIA expansion ?
    I am not sure the differences between the Balrog's from the day of Ecthelion and the one encountered in Moria. My guess would be if any different the one in Moria was weaker as it had been pretty dormant in the mines for a very long time.

    The places Gandalf and the Balrog were, are in fact in the expansion.

    In the story, they both fell into a subterrainian lake (in the Foundations of Stone zone in the game). At which point the Balrog's flame was extinguished. Weakened, the balrog ran up the Endless stair with Gandalf in persuit. The Endless Stair starts in the foundations and goes to the top of Zirakzigal. Somewhere between the lake, and the location of the final battle, the Balrog reignited.

    On top of the mountain, the Balrog and Gandalf fought, and they killed each other.

    Somewhere in all this mayhem part of the Endless Stair was collapsed and because of this -in game you can not climb the stair to the top. You can however get out to the top of Zirakzigal from another location.
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    http://cruciblegaming.com

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    89

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigram View Post
    Somewhere in all this mayhem part of the Endless Stair was collapsed and because of this -in game you can not climb the stair to the top. You can however get out to the top of Zirakzigal from another location.
    will LOTRO player get to see the scene of the fight between gandalf and balrog at the top of zirakzigil ? and will we see the corpse of balrog ?

    i was hoping that TURBINE add a special 'eagle' ride from zirakzigil to lorien , the chance of seeing middle earth from the sky is soooo tempting although i understand there is no flying mount here in this game.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ohio, where we never have any adventures or do anything unexpected
    Posts
    4,646

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    will LOTRO player get to see the scene of the fight between gandalf and balrog at the top of zirakzigil ?
    No. At least not yet, if ever, that I know of.

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    and will we see the corpse of balrog ?
    Yes, his remains can be found on Zirakzigil.
    [COLOR=yellowgreen][B]"Pure creation is like a vacation."[/B][/COLOR]
    [INDENT]- Welby of Landroval[/INDENT]

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    2,884

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    unless sauron's messenger contact the balrog, i never read anyone from mordor contacting the balrog and inviting it to join sauron's army.

    what the lore said about this ? did the balrog submit to sauron rule ? or is it a wild balrog who only recoghnize melkor as its master ?
    I'm not sure. I do think it quite likely that Sauron knew of Durin's Bane, and vice-versa, at the least. It is also quite possible that, as there were many orcs in Moria, who most likely recognized Sauron as the overlord, Durin's Bane was the local "boss". But we don't know, and never will.

    There would possibly be a bit of a power struggle, perhaps? Sauron was practically Melkor's right hand, but Gothmog and the other balrogs were his greatest soldiers. I wouldn't be surprised if Sauron and Durin's Bane ended up fighting over power, as usually happens with their sorts.
    [B][COLOR=red]Turn[/COLOR] - Guardian
    [COLOR=red]Balandolen[/COLOR] - Lore-master
    [COLOR=red]Turnholm[/COLOR] - Minstrel

    [/B]

  19. Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Here is another question? Is Gandalf "The White" that much more powerful then Gandalf "The Grey"? Did any of the books state that by becoming "The White" that you gained more power? After all, Gandalf "The Grey" struck down the Balrog....at the cost of his own life, yes, but slay it he did, that is an awful lot of power.
    Yes, being "White" is superior than being "Gray".
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620500000009263b/01003/signature.png]Arasilion[/charsig]

  20. Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    so its possible that if gandalf survived, their mission can still be accomplished (destroying the ring) but the whole world is burning.. thus a phyric victory ?
    Anything is possible, but that would be highly improbable. One could even argue that Iluvatar ("God") would never allow Sauron a final victory, but barring any divine intervention, it's HIGHLY unlikely the Ring would have been destroyed.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620500000009263b/01003/signature.png]Arasilion[/charsig]

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,881

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    I don't think Durin's Bane would have willingly submitted to Sauron. At one point, both Sauron and the balrogs were part of Morgoth's army. Durin's Bane and Sauron are basically on the same level as each other (in the "order of being"). I have my doubts whether the balrog would willingly follow Sauron as a servant, and even greater doubts about Sauron having the power to command (or force) the balrog to do so...at least, without the One Ring.

    Had Sauron regained the One Ring, things might be different. But in his weakened state, without the ring, Sauron does not have sufficient power in himself to command a balrog--and as the books make clear, there is no way an army of orcs and trolls sent by Sauron (no matter how large) would be able to "force" a balrog to do anything either.

    Indeed, one of the questions that has always intrigued me would be...what if the balrog had somehow been able to "cut off" the fellowship from escape, defeated Gandalf and slew everyone else? Would the balrog "know" (or perceive) what the One Ring was? If so, would he take it and wield it himself, and attempt to overthrow Sauron? (I think the answers are "yes" and "yes," and that he might very likely succeed.)

    If we think balrogs are bad, what about a balrog wielding the One Ring? Ouch!
    [color=teal]Officer and Co-Founding Member,[/color] [url=http://www.kismetbp.com]Ring of Destiny[/url]
    [color=silver]Gladden server[/color]
    [i][color=yellow]Á auta mornië! i cala tula lennar! ("Flee, darkness! The light comes upon you!")[/color][/i]

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    89

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    Indeed, one of the questions that has always intrigued me would be...what if the balrog had somehow been able to "cut off" the fellowship from escape, defeated Gandalf and slew everyone else? Would the balrog "know" (or perceive) what the One Ring was? If so, would he take it and wield it himself, and attempt to overthrow Sauron? (I think the answers are "yes" and "yes," and that he might very likely succeed.)

    If we think balrogs are bad, what about a balrog wielding the One Ring? Ouch!
    i think the ring is too small for balrog's stubby fingers

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ohio, where we never have any adventures or do anything unexpected
    Posts
    4,646

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    i think the ring is too small for balrog's stubby fingers
    Oh, not always...
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fellowship of the Ring, The Shadow of the Past
    'Bilbo knew no more than he told you, I am sure,' said Gandalf. 'He would certainly never have passed on to you anything that he thought would be a danger, even though I promised to look after you. He thought the ring was very beautiful, and very useful at need; and if anything was wrong or queer, it was himself. He said that it was "growing on his mind", and he was always worrying about it; but he did not suspect that the ring itself was to blame. Though he had found out that the thing needed looking after; it did not seem always of the same size or weight; it shrank or expanded in an odd way, and might suddenly slip off a finger where it had been tight.'
    [COLOR=yellowgreen][B]"Pure creation is like a vacation."[/B][/COLOR]
    [INDENT]- Welby of Landroval[/INDENT]

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    464

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    I don't think Durin's Bane would have willingly submitted to Sauron. At one point, both Sauron and the balrogs were part of Morgoth's army. Durin's Bane and Sauron are basically on the same level as each other (in the "order of being"). I have my doubts whether the balrog would willingly follow Sauron as a servant, and even greater doubts about Sauron having the power to command (or force) the balrog to do so...at least, without the One Ring.

    Had Sauron regained the One Ring, things might be different. But in his weakened state, without the ring, Sauron does not have sufficient power in himself to command a balrog--and as the books make clear, there is no way an army of orcs and trolls sent by Sauron (no matter how large) would be able to "force" a balrog to do anything either.

    Indeed, one of the questions that has always intrigued me would be...what if the balrog had somehow been able to "cut off" the fellowship from escape, defeated Gandalf and slew everyone else? Would the balrog "know" (or perceive) what the One Ring was? If so, would he take it and wield it himself, and attempt to overthrow Sauron? (I think the answers are "yes" and "yes," and that he might very likely succeed.)

    If we think balrogs are bad, what about a balrog wielding the One Ring? Ouch!
    I should think so. Durin's Bane was a Maia, and thus had intelligence enough to recognize what it had found. Would it recognize it as Saurons or not? Meh, I dunno. Being dormant for so long, no one really knows what the Balrog was aware of. However, the question that arises from this is whether Druin's Bane could use it, without the constant calling to Sauron. Would the Ring recognize that a new power of similar level had acquired it, or would the Ring yearn for Sauron regardless of who held it?
    [COLOR="Red"][I][CENTER]Dwoir - 65 - Guardian
    Halfric - 65 - Warden
    Swifty and Hammo - Arkenstone
    [/CENTER][/I][/COLOR]

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    89

    Re: What if Gandalf didnt fall in Moria ?

    Quote Originally Posted by O03 View Post
    I should think so. Durin's Bane was a Maia, and thus had intelligence enough to recognize what it had found. Would it recognize it as Saurons or not? Meh, I dunno. Being dormant for so long, no one really knows what the Balrog was aware of. However, the question that arises from this is whether Druin's Bane could use it, without the constant calling to Sauron. Would the Ring recognize that a new power of similar level had acquired it, or would the Ring yearn for Sauron regardless of who held it?
    one of the niggling stuff in my mind is this : it take just 1 person, gandalf to beat the balrog.. how come the WHOLE dwarf army inside moria cannot kill it ? with their engineering skill the dwarves can make heavy weapons to kill the beast easily or trapped it below the mines

 

 
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload