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  1. #1
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    Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    I was reading a post on another forum asking "what is the most powerful creature in middle Earth". Well the most powerful creature in the LOTR universe would be Illuvatar, since he is God...but the most powerful creature to ever set foot on Middle Earth? Most would say Morgoth...but I am going with Ungoliant. It seems that Ungoliant had a unique power amongst the other celestial creatures and demons of Arda, she could feed on other power-sources and grow stronger. She was, it can be assumed, weaker than Morgoth when she was first drafted by him to feed upon the trees, and we have to assume this ability to feed on power is a power unique to Ungoliant or Morgoth would have just done it himself. After feeding upon the trees, and perhaps several other power-sources, ungoliant grew in power far beyond Morgoth, so much so that she was able to defeat him in battle in order to consume his silmaril (I think that is why she attacked him) and maybe even consume Morgoth himself. It took the combined might of Morgoth and every Balrog hiding in Middle Earth to drive Ungoliant away, where the only the only thing to finaly defeat her was herself (she ate herself). It also seems that Shelob inherited this ability from Ungoliant since it mentions that Shelob was content to slowly feast over the centuries and grow stronger and stronger.

    Since all of the good Gods put together could barley defeat Morgoth, but Ungoliant single-handedly defeated him and fought a Troup or Balrogs.....I think Ungoliant must be the strongest creature in Middle-Earth.

  2. Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Actually, you're wrong; but your reasons for believing so are strong.

    First, definitive proof that Tolkien believed Morgoth was more powerful than Ungoliant:

    "But [Morgoth's] cunning overreached his aim; his words touched too deep, and awoke a fire more fierce than he designed; and Feanor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils. Then hate overcame Feanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying "Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!" And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in [Arda]" --- "Of the Silmarils", The Silmarillion

    So then, why did Ungoliant defeat Morgoth in battle? Well, ask yourself why did Samwise Gamgee defeat Shelob? It wasn't because Ungoliant or Sam were stronger. In Sam's case, he used Shelob's own strength to pierce her hide with Sting; and in Ungoliant's case, she bound Melkor with her webs so that he couldn't move. The strongest opponent doesn't always win battles. With cunning and a good amount of luck, the underdog can win.
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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Three words:

    Any Given Sunday.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    So, if it's Ungoliant versus the '08 Steelers, who wins?
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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    Actually, you're wrong; but your reasons for believing so are strong.

    First, definitive proof that Tolkien believed Morgoth was more powerful than Ungoliant:

    "But [Morgoth's] cunning overreached his aim; his words touched too deep, and awoke a fire more fierce than he designed; and Feanor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils. Then hate overcame Feanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying "Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!" And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in [Arda]" --- "Of the Silmarils", The Silmarillion

    So then, why did Ungoliant defeat Morgoth in battle? Well, ask yourself why did Samwise Gamgee defeat Shelob? It wasn't because Ungoliant or Sam were stronger. In Sam's case, he used Shelob's own strength to pierce her hide with Sting; and in Ungoliant's case, she bound Melkor with her webs so that he couldn't move. The strongest opponent doesn't always win battles. With cunning and a good amount of luck, the underdog can win.



    That is a very good point, but I would ask a few questions...
    1: Did Ungoliant dwell in Arda at that time? I would need a time line and some specualtion to find out, but it is possible that Ungoliant had either not entered, or had already left Arda when that statment was made. Also, since Ungoliant's power waxes and wanes greatly, from humble demon to mighty god-eater, and back to starving slinker again shows that, depending on when the statment was made, Ungoliant may, or may not, have been at her xeinth.

    2: In this case did "mightiest" refer to most powerful individual combatant, or mightest ruler. Certainly Andre the Giant is more powerful than Hitler...but most people would admit Hitler was a mightier foe.

    3: Did Feanor know about Ungoliant....weather that statment is referring to omniscant narration or Feanor's perception of Morgoth is up to speculation, but if it refers to Feanor's perception then it is possible that Feanor had no knowledge of Ungoliant.

    4: Could this just be a phrase in which Tolkien never considered this particualr implication. While his works are amazing no doubt, since half of them are peiced together and incomplete this statment could be a simple over-sight...or not.

    The only reason I say that Ungoliant would be the most powerful is because she did subdue....perhaps through trickery (not how I envisioned it, but a perfectly reasonable interpretation), perhaps through force Morgoth, and It did take a slew of Balrogs to run her off.....and I could have sworn that the passage in the Silmarillion mentions that ungiloliant grew more powerful than Morgoth, but I will have to look it up to be sure.

  6. Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmie_smithers View Post
    That is a very good point, but I would ask a few questions...
    1: Did Ungoliant dwell in Arda at that time? I would need a time line and some specualtion to find out, but it is possible that Ungoliant had either not entered, or had already left Arda when that statment was made. Also, since Ungoliant's power waxes and wanes greatly, from humble demon to mighty god-eater, and back to starving slinker again shows that, depending on when the statment was made, Ungoliant may, or may not, have been at her xeinth.
    Yes, she had made a lair in the south of Valinor and evidently lived there for quite a long time.

    2: In this case did "mightiest" refer to most powerful individual combatant, or mightest ruler. Certainly Andre the Giant is more powerful than Hitler...but most people would admit Hitler was a mightier foe.
    It seems to me that, given the context, Tolkien used "mighty" to refer to innate power. To use "mighty" in the sense of leadership would have been odd at that point in time.

    3: Did Feanor know about Ungoliant....weather that statment is referring to omniscant narration or Feanor's perception of Morgoth is up to speculation, but if it refers to Feanor's perception then it is possible that Feanor had no knowledge of Ungoliant.
    I don't know if Feanor knew of her, but that statement was given by the narrator, not Feanor.

    4: Could this just be a phrase in which Tolkien never considered this particualr implication. While his works are amazing no doubt, since half of them are peiced together and incomplete this statment could be a simple over-sight...or not.
    It is possible.

    The only reason I say that Ungoliant would be the most powerful is because she did subdue....perhaps through trickery (not how I envisioned it, but a perfectly reasonable interpretation), perhaps through force Morgoth, and It did take a slew of Balrogs to run her off.....and I could have sworn that the passage in the Silmarillion mentions that ungiloliant grew more powerful than Morgoth, but I will have to look it up to be sure.
    I think this is the passage you're referring to:

    "But Ungoliant had grown great, and he less by the power that had gone out of him..."

    It may seem that Tolkien meant she was greater than Morgoth; but it's not definitive. It could just mean that Morgoth was weakened and feeling "under the weather", in a manner of speaking. It's inconclusive.
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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    The point made in the writings that provide the title to the volume of the histories titled "Morgoth's Ring" is that Morgoth, and later Sauron, weakened themselves by putting a great portion of their innate power into domination of others and corruption--Sauron, into the Ruling Ring, and Morgoth, into the fabric of Arda itself. So, even though Morgoth was technically the mightiest, that doesn't mean he has all that power available to him.
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  8. #8

    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    In addition, Morgoth was holding the Silmarils inside a crystal casket in his right hand and his hand was beginning to burn from the pain of holding them. Later in the Silmarillion it says his hand was burned black from this. This may have dimished his power to withstand Ungoliant in single combat. Also Morgoth never really fought at the lead of his armies but commanded from behind the lines (except for the challenge of Fingolfin, which he really couldn't ignore unless he wanted his subjects to think he was a coward). Morgoth was more of a corrupter and seducer through his lies and twisted versions of the truth than a mighty force to be reckoned with one on one.
    "You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81



  9. #9
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    Post Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    While it is made fairly clear by a number of passages that Melkor/Morgoth is the mightiest being in Middle-Earth, it is equally clear that this might is not measured simply in terms of arm wrestling.

    It is quite clear from a number of passages that when it comes to single combat, Morgoth is quite frankly no match for Tulkas. He flees several such encounters, and when he is finally cornered in Utumno, this is the result:

    But at the last the gates of Utumno were broken and the halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Then Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him, and cast him upon his face; and he was bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and led captive; and the world had peace for a long age.
    Likewise, Fingolfin aquits himself so well in single combat against Morgoth that we may well credit him with a moral victory in the match, given that his opponent was technically immortal and unkillable - indeed, it may not even lie in the power of the Valar to truly destroy Morgoth!

    So is Ungoliant physically more powerful than Morgoth? Having just drank the light of the Trees, at that point almost certainly yes, she may well have been the most physically/magically deadly thing in Middle-earth for a short time.

    But Morgoth's main power extends to include the power to create and/or control beings such as the Balrogs that drove her off, and the enormous hosts of orcs, trolls, dragons and the like who follow him, he even has sufficent force of personality and will that he is able to frequently cloud the minds of his fellow Valar!

    So in that regards I think it is safe to say that he holds his title of 'most powerful' by a fair margin over any other in Middle-earth.

  10. #10

    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    So, if it's Ungoliant versus the '08 Steelers, who wins?
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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Benucio View Post
    Mini Ditka
    I was actually going to say, Ungoliant versus Da' Bears...but wasn't sure anyone would get the reference.
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  12. #12

    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    She certainly was the most powerful. She was about to get the KB on Morgoth in a legitimate 1v1 duel, but he called in his greenie balrogs over vent and she had to run like hell to escape. I've been in situations much like this, so I can sympathise.

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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    So Ungoliant was the most powerful in a 1vs1 (at least at that time), but Morgoth overall was more powerful because of the vast armies and powers that he could command. On his own Morgoth couldn't beat her, but his power caused the Balrogs to come and attack her, thus defeating her.

    Then again, if he had been ready for a fight, and armed with Grond, who knows? Giant Hell-Hammers make great bug squishers...
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  14. #14
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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    <clipped>
    And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in [Arda]" --- "Of the Silmarils", The Silmarillion

    So then, why did Ungoliant defeat Morgoth in battle? Well, ask yourself why did Samwise Gamgee defeat Shelob? It wasn't because Ungoliant or Sam were stronger. In Sam's case, he used Shelob's own strength to pierce her hide with Sting; and in Ungoliant's case, she bound Melkor with her webs so that he couldn't move. The strongest opponent doesn't always win battles. With cunning and a good amount of luck, the underdog can win.
    Your quote states that Melkor was the mightiest of all the dwellers of Arda, and that is easily true, but Ungoliant was NOT in Arda at that time.

    And the question was not who was 'strongest' but who was 'most powerful'. And ungoliant's 'most powerful'ness was relative to when and upon what/whom she had fed.

    So, all things considered...

    My vote for most powerful thing ever in Middle Earth would have to be Goldberry.

    "???" you say! Well only Goldberry had the ability to keep Tom Bombadil concentrated on anything for more than a short while.
    Last edited by Merciful_Death; Apr 12 2009 at 07:42 PM.
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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Merciful_Death View Post
    Your quote states that Melkor was the mightiest of all the dwellers of Arda, and that is easily true, but Ungoliant was NOT in Arda at that time.
    I thought Arda was Earth... If she wasnt on earth, where else could she be? Its not like she could have been on mars or something...
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  16. Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Merciful_Death View Post
    Your quote states that Melkor was the mightiest of all the dwellers of Arda, and that is easily true, but Ungoliant was NOT in Arda at that time.
    You're confusing yourself. Arda is Earth, and she was on Earth. How are you defining Arda?

    And the question was not who was 'strongest' but who was 'most powerful'.
    Also settled in that quote...
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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Quote Originally Posted by sir-rinthian View Post
    I thought Arda was Earth... If she wasnt on earth, where else could she be? Its not like she could have been on mars or something...
    Ah, I made a mistake, and was caught on it. I read Arda and thought Valinor.

    Thanks for catching that.
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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    You know... Technically you were right. She wasn't "in" Arda, she was "on" Arda
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  19. #19

    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Quote Originally Posted by sir-rinthian View Post
    You know... Technically you were right. She wasn't "in" Arda, she was "on" Arda
    Unless she was burrowed in the ground!
    ...

  20. #20
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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Depends on how you want to slice up the word "powerful"

    In terms of physical wrestling ability, Tulkas was more powerful.

    In terms of melee combat, Fingolfin, an elf-lord, demonstrated far more skill than Melkor - giving him 7 nasty wounds and applying a permanent -% movement speed debuff on Melkor.

    In terms of god powers, Melkor was either equal to or slightly more powerful than Manwe.

    In terms of magical ability, Luthien successfully put a sleep spell on him, and to make it more challenging, she performed a sultry dance at the same time.

    And in a no holds/spells/traps barred contest, Ungoliath was more powerful at the time she attacked Melkor. But that is due entirely because she picked the time and place of battle. So let's give Ungoliath the upper-hand in strategy, and not so much pure power.

    Now...in terms of the ability to destroy and corrupt the world at large - Melkor is the most powerful. His power was not so much measured by what he possessed internally to himself, but rather the end result of his actions. One must add up all the evil that the seeds he planted caused (including Sauron's actions, which can be viewed as results of Melkor's poisoning).

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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Quote Originally Posted by NoWayOut View Post
    Unless she was burrowed in the ground!
    Lol, that would be a BIG hole!
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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Quote Originally Posted by sir-rinthian View Post
    Lol, that would be a BIG hole!

    So, the giant sink-hole in Quatamala....





    was caused by Ungoliant? OMG, ruuuuuun!!
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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    LOL

    /10char
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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    melkor vs tulkas , who wins ?

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    Re: Ungoliant= Most powerful thing ever in Middle-earth

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    melkor vs tulkas , who wins ?
    Isn't it evident?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Silmarillion
    Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, who is surnamed Astaldo, the Valiant. He came last to Arda, to aid the Valar in the first battles with Melkor. He delights in wrestling and in contests of strength; and he rides no steed, for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Silmarillion
    But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little Kingdom; and Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter. So came Tulkas the Strong, whose anger passes like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter, and forsook Arda, and there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the Kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after.
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