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  1. #51
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilnas View Post
    Or maybe Tolkien was simply influenced by the culture of his era and had a very limited scope for women of action in his stories.
    I'd say that notion is pretty well overturned by Dernhelm's role in the story. I think Tolkien was actually pretty progressive for his time. He has a unique way of exploring differing viewpoints, even when it seems as though he is backing one in particular. The clearest example of this in my mind is when Sam sees a fallen warrior of Harad during the ambush in Ithilien. Although the Haradrim are pretty clearly depicted as evil, Sam has that moment of sympathy for the soldier and questions whether he was truly evil or just decieved by Sauron. I think this is a direct reflection of Tolkien's war experiences. It seems clear to me that Tolkien wasn't someone to just accept the prevailing views of his day. The lesser role that women play in his stories is probably just a reflection of the older time period that is being depicted, but the few shining examples of heroines in the legendarium are his way of showing that he knows full well what women are capable of.
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  2. #52
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilnas View Post
    Agreed MithrilSoul. I thought that part about Galadriel and Feanor and the contrast to her interaction with Gimli was pretty cool too. I wonder if Galadriel giving Gimli three hairs when he asked for but a single strand had anything to do with Feanor's three requests.
    An interesting thought. Sadly...I suppose we'll never know!

    I am a big Galadriel fan and wonder at her overall motivations in the Third Age. Tolkien seems to have conceived of her as one of the most puissant beings abiding in ME at the time, but for the most part she limits herself to preserving and shielding Lothlorien and does not generally oppose Sauron in a broader, more active way (apart from her participation in the White Council, which really doesn't seem to have done all that much). I wonder if she was just really burned out after everything that happened to her family in the great struggles against Morgoth. Also, she once lived for a time at Doriath as something of a companion to Melian, and I wonder how the fall of Doriath may have affected her. Or maybe Tolkien was simply influenced by the culture of his era and had a very limited scope for women of action in his stories.
    Well, from the same source I cited above, it is clear the the whole purpose of Galadriel moving to Lorien (the first time, not the second) was so that she would be in a position to confront and halt the influence of Sauron. She did this alone, as Celeborn did not travel to Lorien with her; because of the role the dwarves played in the slaying of his kinsman Elu Thingol (Elwë), he always bore a dislike (even hatred) for dwarves, and so refused to pass through Moria in order to go east to Lothlorien. (This also explains why Gimli received a less-than-warm welcome when the fellowship entered Lorien, despite the fact he was chosen for the fellowship by Elrond himself, a fact Legolas points out to Haldir seemingly without effect. Though obviously since Celeborn *was* in Lorien by the time of LoTR, he obviously got over his misgivings about traveling through Moria, or perhaps ended up going over the mountains instead.) But the point is, the very reason Galadriel went east was to fortify Lorien and so to halt the advance of Sauron's influence. It was a very active move, in which she intentionally put herself furthest east of any of the major settlements of the elves and therefore nearest to harm's way. As it turns out, when Sauron did eventually launch his assault on Eregion in the attempt to capture the rings of power, he chose to attack the region from the south (thus avoiding Galadriel and the elves of Lorien); and it was only the attack on his rear by a combined force of the Galadhrim and the dwarves of Moria that prevented Sauron's attack from becoming a total route that likely would have killed Elrond and wiped out all of the elves attempting to retreat from Eregion into (what would become) Rivendell. When Sauron's armies halted their advance on Elrond & co. in order to repel the Galadhrim and the dwarves on his flank/rear, the latter were forced to retreat back into Moria (and close the gates behind them.) But the diversion served its purpose; it kept Sauron fixed on them for a while (rather than Elrond's forces), which allowed Elrond to escape and establish himself in an easily-defended valley that Sauron either couldn't find, or felt was foolish to attempt to assault immediately.

    In other words...without that assault from Galadriel & the dwarves, there probably would have been no Rivendell at all. Which means Sauron could have then pressed his attack westward with 100% of his army rather than with only a portion of his army (since he needed to keep a significant portion of his reserves in central Eriador in order to prevent a surprise attack on his rear by Elrond). And moving west with only a portion of his forces, he *still* was very nearly was able to overwhelm Gil-galad and Cirdan (who were saved at the last minute by the arriving forces of Numenor); indeed I seem to remember the book saying that Sauron's forces were able to get to within sight of the city (the Grey Havens). Had Sauron been able to attack with his full army rather than only a portion of it, certainly Gil-galad and Cirdan and their forces would have fallen; even if Numenor had arrived, it would have been far too late. Thus three of the central players in the later history (Gil-galad, Elrond, Cirdan) would have been dead, two of the three elven rings of power would have almost certainly been captured by Sauron, and essentially all of the elves west of the Misty Mountains would have been utterly and totally annihilated. There would have been no "Last Alliance of Elves and Men," no cutting of the ring off Sauron's finger. The race of men was strong but at that point almost certainly not strong enough to hold off Sauron alone. Basically, all the world would have fallen to darkness.

    So I'd say Galadriel was a pretty important and active figure. If she seemed more "passive" in later times, that was probably due to re-focusing her energies on protecting Lothlorien via the power of the ring. The appendices to LoTR talk about how after the destruction of the One Ring, Celeborn led the armies of Lothlorien in an assault on Dol Guldur, and though Celeborn was the military leader of the attack, it was Galadriel who exerted the most "supernatural" power (so to speak):

    "Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."

    - LoTR, Appendix B
    Last edited by MithrilSoul; Mar 05 2009 at 01:55 AM.
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  3. Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    I never understood when people said Tolkien had a low view of woman. I always saw Tolkien put woman on pedestals in his stories: Varda, Morwen, Luthien, Melian, Haleth, Eowyn, et al. All these woman kicked butt. Not to mention the Numenorians had ruling Queens.
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  4. #54
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    I never understood when people said Tolkien had a low view of woman. I always saw Tolkien put woman on pedestals in his stories: Varda, Morwen, Luthien, Melian, Haleth, Eowyn, et al. All these woman kicked butt. Not to mention the Numenorians had ruling Queens.
    I agree beren and company got captured by Suaron and Luthien was the one who freed them. Galadriel not celeborn was the one who destroyed Dol Guldor. Melian shielded Doriath for years. Eowyn banished the witch king.

    I re-read some other stuff mithril soul and had totlaly forgotten that at one point Tolkein was planning on having LOTR continue into the 4th age with a re-emergent witch king as the main protaganist hence the line about his voice not being heard in that age of the world.
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  5. #55
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    I'd say that notion is pretty well overturned by Dernhelm's role in the story. I think Tolkien was actually pretty progressive for his time. He has a unique way of exploring differing viewpoints, even when it seems as though he is backing one in particular. The clearest example of this in my mind is when Sam sees a fallen warrior of Harad during the ambush in Ithilien. Although the Haradrim are pretty clearly depicted as evil, Sam has that moment of sympathy for the soldier and questions whether he was truly evil or just decieved by Sauron. I think this is a direct reflection of Tolkien's war experiences. It seems clear to me that Tolkien wasn't someone to just accept the prevailing views of his day. The lesser role that women play in his stories is probably just a reflection of the older time period that is being depicted, but the few shining examples of heroines in the legendarium are his way of showing that he knows full well what women are capable of.
    At risk of being flamed... I think the rarity of female warriors in his books reflects reality as well. I don't know any women that I couldn't beat up if I was that kind of jerk that would hit a woman. I'm sure there are some Amazon-types out there or some that are trained in the martial arts that could kick my butt. They exist, but they are RARE. I've never met one, as far as I know. ADD to that a medievalesque cultural setting, and it wouldn't make much sense to have female warriors all over the place.

  6. #56

    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Thanks for the follow up responses. I would like to clarify a few things from my prior post. I in no way think that Tolkien had a low view of women. I agree that the key roles of Eowyn, Galadriel and Luthien in the stories make it abundently clear that Tolkien both wanted to and was willing to create space in his stories for powerful and heroic females. However, I do think that it is also quite clear that in relative terms there are very few important female characters in the Middle-earth stories. Further, to my knowledge, Eowyn and Luthien are the only "women of action" in the Middle-earth canon. In contrast it is now commonplace in our own contemporary fantasy literature to have heroines in key active roles. There has been a clear shift in public desire for and acceptance of this as a result of changing societal norms. So while I think that Tolkien didn't have a problem with female heroes per se, I think that his writings must have been affected on some level by the values of his times. This could have been part of his subconscious makeup, it could have been a conscious decision to make sure that his stories weren't too out of whack from what his audience would accept, or it could have been a desire to make the stories generally consistent with the medieval "period" feel of the work (or all of them).

    I was simply musing as to whether the more passive role I saw Galadriel taking in the Third Age was the result of her intrinsic personality and history, or whether at some level Tolkien was consciously or unconsciously limiting the number of female action heroes in his stories. Query whether, if Turgon, Finrod or one of the sons of Feanor had survived, what would have been their strategy in the Third Age while Sauron was dormant? Both Finrod and Turgon built secret strongholds and stayed hidden during the struggle against Morgoth. However, they both did this as the secret bidding of Ulmo, and Finrod did ultimately go forth with Beren and a handful of his household to take direct action. The sons of Feanor were key participants in the long siege of Angband and participated directly in the battles. On the other hand Thingol essentially did the same thing that Galadriel would later do - he created wards around his realm (actually he had Melian do that) and sat tight within them. Or take the case of Elrond, who was Gil-Galad's herald during the Last Alliance but then later settled down in Rivendell and didn't thereafter take a particularly active role in countering the growing shadow in Mordor.

    That was where I was coming from with my musings. Of course, I made the error of doing this at work without consulting the texts, and as you have kindly reminded me I was simply wrong in saying that Galadriel had taken a passive role. I had forgotten those passages about her motivations in moving to Lothlorien and her actions in directing her people at the time of the sack of Eregion.

    For what it's worth, here is my personal list of the most amazing deeds performed by non-divinities in the history Middle-earth:

    1. Fingolfin's challenge of Morgoth.
    2. Luthien and Beren at the court of Morgoth.
    3. Frodo bearing the One Ring to the brink of the fire with the intention of destroying it.
    4. Luthien defeating Sauron.
    5. Echthelion slaying Gothmog.
    6. Eowyn and Merry defeating the Witch King.

    Half the list is made up of women and hobbits.
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  7. #57

    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    I'd say that notion is pretty well overturned by Dernhelm's role in the story. I think Tolkien was actually pretty progressive for his time. He has a unique way of exploring differing viewpoints, even when it seems as though he is backing one in particular. The clearest example of this in my mind is when Sam sees a fallen warrior of Harad during the ambush in Ithilien. Although the Haradrim are pretty clearly depicted as evil, Sam has that moment of sympathy for the soldier and questions whether he was truly evil or just decieved by Sauron. I think this is a direct reflection of Tolkien's war experiences. It seems clear to me that Tolkien wasn't someone to just accept the prevailing views of his day. The lesser role that women play in his stories is probably just a reflection of the older time period that is being depicted, but the few shining examples of heroines in the legendarium are his way of showing that he knows full well what women are capable of.
    I am inclined to agree with you on all of this.
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  8. #58
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    I remember Tom Bombadil being very powerful, older than many other creatures and had complete control of the Old Forest so that nothing there could affect him. He was also believed to have maybe being a Maia.
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  9. #59
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Well Galadriel was very active prior to the third age. She helped lead the Noldor who were left behind across the ice bridge. She set up her relam to guard Sauron's borders. She was a meber of the white council, who did finally drive the necromancer from Dol Guldur even though they waited too long due to Saramun's treachery.

    My feeling is that after seeing all the horrors, she had seen in her life she no longer saw the glory and passion in battle tha she did when she left valinor. Remember back then the Noldor followed feanor partly because they wanted to set up and rule their own lands.

    She achieved this goal in Lothlorien. My feeling is that both her and Elrond being among the greatest elves at the time of the Wotr had the wisdom to realize it wasn't their responsibility to keep fighting battles to protect all of ME and lead great campaigns, but rather it was their responsibility to secure their own realms and protect their own people.

    Keep in mind the distrust among most of the free peoples with many men in league with Sauron, the old elf dwarf hatreds, etc. in a time like that it would seem to me that Knowing for awhile your realm is totally secure, you would seal your borders and prepare internally for defending your lands.

    As far as tom bombadil goes there has been a lot of debates on what he was and even the professor simply called him an enigma. he was certainly much more powerful then a maia though. he stated he was the first and rememebred seeing melkor descend from above.

    my personal belief in regards to him is that he was on the level of the most powerful valr and the incarnation of nature itself. When gandalf said he would be the last to fall to Sauron i pictured it as Sauron having overun all the world and turning it into a barren wasteland, Tom would be overcome with grief for loss of all the great and beautiful creatues of the world and he succomb to grief, not that Sauron would march in and physcially best him.
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  10. #60

    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by tarkhis View Post
    As far as tom bombadil goes there has been a lot of debates on what he was and even the professor simply called him an enigma. he was certainly much more powerful then a maia though. he stated he was the first and rememebred seeing melkor descend from above.

    my personal belief in regards to him is that he was on the level of the most powerful valr and the incarnation of nature itself. When gandalf said he would be the last to fall to Sauron i pictured it as Sauron having overun all the world and turning it into a barren wasteland, Tom would be overcome with grief for loss of all the great and beautiful creatues of the world and he succomb to grief, not that Sauron would march in and physcially best him.
    My view is that Bombadil is a manifestation of the spirit of the Old Forest. His power is that of Arda itself (or a portion of it anyway). To me that explains why he was there to witness the coming of Melkor, why his power was more passive rather than active (e.g., the Ring had no power over him, instead of Tom having power over the Ring), and why he would fall only when the world had been overrun and turned into a wasteland. I'm not so sure it would be an issue of grief, but rather that the essence of his power would have been laid waste.
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  11. #61
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    I doubt the Witch-king could ever wield the Ring, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he was 'extinct'. Defeated, yes, but maybe not entirely destroyed. In typical Tolkien fashion, this matter, like others, is left ambiguous:This single line seems to leave open the possibility of the Witch-king's return in a later age. I myself imagine that this might have been Tolkien's way of allowing him to return to take part in the Dagor Dagorath.
    Good point. Though to be honest I was trying to come up with a better word extinct. Something with less finality, but more than "dispersed".

    Since we're on the subject though, personally I've always suspected Tolkien of merely being...let's call it poetic in that sentence. Particularly given that taken literally "never heard again in that age of the world" really only proscribed about a two-and-a-half years. :P
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  12. #62
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fionnuala View Post
    It is highly doubtful that the Witch-King could wield the Ring. He could not even withstand the power of the lesser 9 rings and fell in thrall to Sauron because of it.

    But wasn't this debate decided when Tolkien's letter was quoted? It stated quite explicitly who could and could not wield it.
    Well what fun would that be?

    But seriously, I don't think the letter settles the question exactly, depending on your personal definition of "wielding the ring". Keep in mind that in large part the excerpts from the letter are concerned with who could defeat Sauron with the aid of the Ring; and who could do so uncorrupted.
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  13. #63
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    I never understood when people said Tolkien had a low view of woman. I always saw Tolkien put woman on pedestals in his stories...
    I'm not sure what a "low view of women" implies exactly (Though Tolkien did make at least one unfortunate remark about the intelligence of women that I recall offhand.) but I will say that sexism and putting women on pedestals are not mutually exclusive, and leave it at that.
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  14. #64

    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    After reading through all the posts, my interpretation of the hypothetical event would be that no other could wield the One Ring other than Sauron. Since Sauron and the ring were joined, his power would ultimately make it's way through.

    Adding a historical reference, remember that Sauron was once of the Valar and was immediately next to impossible to deal with, as he marred all of the initial works the Valar had created at the beginning of the First Age while Arda was being prepared for the coming of elves and men. Everything the Valar created, Melkor (later called Sauron) destroyed. Even the Valar had to retreat from Middle-Earth to Aman in order to avoid the destruction Melkor had caused from Utunmo, after bringing down the pillars of light of Illuin and Ormal.

    So even Gandolf (Olórin, when of the Valar in that age) would be at odds with the power of Sauron (Melkor).

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  15. #65

    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Well, Sauron is not Morgoth. He was his lieutenant, a servant, and was not one of the Valar. He was one of the Maia of Aule before he was seduced by Morgoth.

    One thing to keep in mind while discussing Feanor or Galadriel was that their history shows they made some unbelievably bad choices, despite their wisdom, power, and breeding. Feanor and Galadriel, after Morgoth stole the Silmarils, chose to pridefully take their own path rather than listen to the advice of the Valar, leading to an unbelievable amount of tragedy for them and everyone they touched. Looking at the actions of the Noldor, of whom Galadriel was high in their councils, you can see why she had become what she was in LoTR. While certainly powerful, her attempts to reclaim the Silmarils resulted in death and destruction for most of her family, and for misery for other elves and men. As a result, she, along with some of the other Noldor, had been banned from Valinor. She likely would have left had she been able to, but in her increased wisdom (and having nowhere to go) her desire to battle and dominate had been replaced by a desire to preserve and protect, something that would have prevented much of the tragedy in the Silmarillion.

    As far as saying Elrond's bloodline wasn't a match for Galadriel's, I have to disagree. Elwe, equal to Finwe in every regard, marrying a Maiar, even greater in power, producing Luthien, who married the greatest hero mankind had ever seen, who resulted in Elwing, who married Earendil, grandson of Fingolfin, son of Finwe, who was also born from the other great house of the Edain, all combined to make Elrond and Elros, whose blood was that of the kings of Numenor. Some have claimed that Fingolfin achieved some of the greatest deeds of the Children of Iluvatar, but don't forget that Earendil slew Ancalagon the Black, among many other things. So Galadriel has the advantage of seeing the Two Trees and being a bit closer in generations to Finwe, Elrond has Finwe, Elwe, a Maiar, and pretty much every badass elf in his close family tree. Look at his actions, however; he never sought to dominate or rule, but preserve with the knowledge that the time of the elves was dwindling.

    Anyway, the ring itself contained the better portion of Sauron's power. While Sauron was a formidable foe without it, with it he contained all his original power, plus the ability to control that which he had corrupted by deception. Gandalf certainly had the power to take it (but would not use it, as he had been sent to assist and not interfere) but it was antithetical to his nature. Galadriel, if you look at her past, would have, like she said, desired the power, but she had learned from her past and chose not to, likely earning her passage back to the West. Elrond, it seems, was similar to Gandalf in that he did not desire power over preservation. With the exception of maybe Cirdan and Glorfindel, no one else had the wisdom and power to wrest the wring away from his master, and no one had the ability to completely subvert it to their good intentions. It was a thing evil in and of itself, and like the desire to take the Silmarils back from Morgoth, could not bear good fruit because it was, by nature, evil.
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  16. #66
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    when the "One Ring" was destroyed, what happend to the other rights..
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  17. #67
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdnorris View Post
    One thing to keep in mind while discussing Feanor or Galadriel was that their history shows they made some unbelievably bad choices, despite their wisdom, power, and breeding. Feanor and Galadriel, after Morgoth stole the Silmarils, chose to pridefully take their own path rather than listen to the advice of the Valar, leading to an unbelievable amount of tragedy for them and everyone they touched. Looking at the actions of the Noldor, of whom Galadriel was high in their councils, you can see why she had become what she was in LoTR. While certainly powerful, her attempts to reclaim the Silmarils resulted in death and destruction for most of her family, and for misery for other elves and men. As a result, she, along with some of the other Noldor, had been banned from Valinor.
    Yes...and no. Or rather, maybe. If you haven't yet, you really should get your hands on a copy of Unfinished Tales and read the section called "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn." Christopher Tolkien does a pretty good job of discussing several manuscripts JRR wrote late in life (later than the Silmarillion) where JRR seemingly completely changed his mind about Galadriel. In the later versions of this story, Galadriel was never a supporter of the rebellion, had a great loathing for what Fëanor did; indeed she and Celeborn "fought heroically in defence of Alqualondë against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them" (UT, 232). She did indeed leave Valinor at roughly the same time as Fëanor's folks did, but not as part of their party; instead, "despairing now of Valinor and horrified by the violence and cruelty of Fëanor, set sail into the darkness without waiting for Manwë's leave."

    Now, what are we to make of all of that? It's hard to say. As Christopher points out, "This story, withdrawing Galadriel from all association with the rebellion of Fëanor, even to the extent of giving her a separate departure (with Celeborn) from Aman, is profoundly at variance with all that is said elsewhere." Yet this is clearly JRR's most mature thought on the matter; this account was penned in the last month of his life, and in fact was (as far as anyone can tell) the last bit of writing on anything Middle Earth related that JRR ever wrote. JRR, unfortunately, tended to come up with new (or alternative) descriptions of certain events or people quite often, and then would go back to his major histories (i.e. those we find in the Silmarillion) and re-write them. Or, sometimes, he would go back and decide there was no good way to incorporate the new material, and just end up rejecting/throwing out the new version in favor of keeping the old. Unfortunately, JRR never got a chance to make a definitive decision with the Silmarillion texts with this "new" info about Galadriel and Celeborn before his (JRR's) death. So we are left in a bind. Do we adopt the "latest"-written view of Galadriel as the definitive one, and presume that--had he lived, he would have re-written the Silmarillion in order to reflect this new view on Galadriel? Or rather, do we stick with the Silmarillion view as the only published (and thus definitive) view, and presume that, while an interesting fancy, JRR would have eventually tossed out this "new" account in favor of preserving the older one?

    I personally can't really say. It seems like either option puts us in a bind. But it certainly is interesting to read, if nothing else.
    Last edited by MithrilSoul; Mar 06 2009 at 10:23 AM. Reason: typos
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  18. #68

    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    It is too bad that J.R.R. Tolkien is gone He was a great writer and I would like to see what he would have to say on this topic after seeing this discussion.
    .
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  19. #69
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by BIGeyedBUG View Post
    Since we're on the subject though, personally I've always suspected Tolkien of merely being...let's call it poetic in that sentence. Particularly given that taken literally "never heard again in that age of the world" really only proscribed about a two-and-a-half years. :P
    Good point, though there does seem to be enough wiggle-room in that statement that I like to imagine the Witch-king could have eventually resurfaced. It's purely my own flight of fancy, but I could definitely imagine the combined forces of Morgoth, Sauron, and the Witch-king (and maybe Saruman) laying waste to Arda/Earth in its final days during the Dagor Dagorath. That is, of course, before the fateful blow dealt to Morgoth by Túrin Turambar.

    I've been wanting to write a Dagor Dagorath fanfic-novel, but I don't know if I'll ever actually get around to it.
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  20. #70
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post

    I've been wanting to write a Dagor Dagorath fanfic-novel, but I don't know if I'll ever actually get around to it.
    Well you could write it, but you couldn't legally publish it until...hmm...2023? 2043? One or the other--whenever the copywrite runs out. If you tried it before then, it would be lawsuit city.
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  21. #71
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    Well you could write it, but you couldn't legally publish it until...hmm...2023? 2043? One or the other--whenever the copywrite runs out. If you tried it before then, it would be lawsuit city.
    No, no, I just mean something along the lines of Isildur or other fanfic works that exist out on the web. It wouldn't be for any form of benefit, but just for the sake of writing something. Here's the Tolkien Estate's formal stance on the matter:

    Can I / someone else write / complete / develop my / their own version of one of these unfinished tales ? (or any others)

    The simple answer is NO.

    You are of course free to do whatever you like for your own private enjoyment, but there is no question of any commercial exploitation of this form of "fan-fiction".

    Also, in these days of the Internet, and privately produced collectors’ items for sale on eBay, we must make it as clear as possible that the Tolkien Estate never has, and never will authorize the commercialisation or distribution of any works of this type.

    The Estate exists to defend the integrity of J.R.R. Tolkien’s writings. Christopher Tolkien's work as his father’s literary executor has always been to publish as faithfully and honestly as possible his father's completed and uncompleted works, without adaptation or embellishment.
    The part that I've highlighted is what is relevant here. As long as I don't try to profit from it in any way, there's nothing to prohibit me from creating a work of fan-fiction. At any rate, it would require a lot of research and time that I'm not sure I'm willing to devote just now. I may eventually do it, but I'm not making any promises.
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  22. #72
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    No, no, I just mean something along the lines of Isildur or other fanfic works that exist out on the web. It wouldn't be for any form of benefit, but just for the sake of writing something.
    That's what I figured, just wanted to double-check.

    Also, what's the quote in your sig? I recognize the first line as Quenya, but the rest doesn't seem to be...or at least, doesn't have a very Quenya "sound" to it. You have me curious.
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  23. #73
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    Also, what's the quote in your sig? I recognize the first line as Quenya, but the rest doesn't seem to be...or at least, doesn't have a very Quenya "sound" to it. You have me curious.
    You are correct. The first line is Quenya and is part of the famous words uttered by Elendil:

    Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien
    Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta

    Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come.
    In this place I will abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.


    These words were also repeated by Aragorn during his coronation. As for the remainder of my signature, the reason it doesn't sound like Quenya is because it is actually Old English. These lines are from the poem Crist, which was said to have been a major influence upon Tolkien, as well as his inspiration for the character Eärendil. Unfortunately, I had to combine lines to fit the entire passage into my signature, but here is how it normally appears:

    Éala, Éarendel, engla beorhtast,
    ofer middangeard monnum sended,

    Ond soðfæsta sunnan léoma,

    Torht ofer tunglas, þu tída gehwane

    of sylfum þé symle inlihtes!



    Here are a few translations:


    Hail Earendel, brightest of angels,
    over Midgard to men sent,
    and true radiance of the Sun
    bright above the stars, every season
    thou of thyself ever illuminest.



    Hail Earendel brightest of angels
    over middle earth sent to man,
    and steadfast splendor of the sun,
    brilliant above stars, thou the times of the year
    by thyself ever illuminate.



    You can read more about this influence on Tolkien here:
    http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.c...ogy/%C9arendel
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  24. #74
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    A few other points I would like to raise in terms of Galadriel's "activity".

    1) Power in ME is not wielded openly. This is especially true in the books and in the movies. The scope of time that Elves and Maia are accustomed to have a much wider breadth and significantly longer than mortals. Action is shown for particular determining moments in time or hidden otherwise so as not call attention to the broader plan and scope. Action to elves is not nearly the same as humans.

    2) Elves have a very distinct view of death and death in the world is of great issue and import to them. As Tolkien said in his letters, elvish magic is primarily about preservation and sustainment, the postponement of change. Time is lengthened in Elvish realms for this express purpose. Things are hidden from danger there so that they might flourish and succeed outside of death's reach. Many of her actions definitely take place in this context. Virtually, all elvish realms have this same quality and a clear boundary (Melian's girdle for example) between time and the elves themselves.

    3) Lorien is uniquely placed on the map as other have noted. It is clearly perched to view Dol Guldur -- long before Dol Guldur even existed I might add -- and keeps Moria separated from the rest of Sauron's minions. The books also tell us that there were many raids from Lorien into Mirkwood around Dol Guldur, so she was clearly trying to keep that spot isolated and under watch. Sauron resided there for many, many years before returning to Barad-dur and only did so if I remember right after Gandalf himself led a raid with the elves of the fortress long suspecting that Sauron's spirit might be hiding there.

    4) Galadriel was clearly impacted by history and the previous actions of herself and her race. Not only does she mention it many times in her own speech or come across as wounded in some deep and abiding way, but many of her actions are in response to those monumental events. She learned from them, but also had many regrets for her own actions and what had gone on the past. Her seeming "inaction" is somewhat a reflection of that. She certainly would not be a fan of hasty action and probably more likely to have a mistake happen by not acting, than by doing something that wasn't well-conceived.

    Lastly, certainly didn't mean to offend anyone in terms of Elrond. My only point was that Elrond was indeed partially a man, a point that is oft forgotten due to the films. As such, the immortality of the Maia and Elves would be slightly "diminished". Certainly, people like Beren, Hurin and Earendil -- even Aragorn -- show that "men" have a role to play and can be extremely powerful. Elrond certainly was on a scale that is consistent with all of them. My main point was that Galadreil was indeed a rival with Feanor and people of the 1st age and even the Maia to some degree in Valinor. She was indeed a breed apart for the 3rd Age. Elrond was as well... I just don't get the sense that he could truly rival her. I think Galadriel is often slighted, because she appears to be on the sidelines when she isn't. We just don't see the impact of her actions directly.

    Anyway, just food for thought.
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  25. #75
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Thanks Reddhawk...fascinating stuff!

    And Orrore, I agree with basically everything you wrote. Well-said.
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