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  1. #26
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fionnuala View Post
    The letter said "only Gandalf" so no, not even Saruman could have defeated Sauron face to face.
    Actually it said "of the others, only Gandalf..." and in the setting, Tolkien might have been restricting himself to the forces of good. Sauruman, having fallen, would not be counted among that number.

    As for sheer power...Sauruman was clearly the superior of Gandalf the Grey, but Gandalf the White was the superior of Sauruman. We know this from the two duels they had directly (the first resulting in Gandalf's imprisonment in Orthanc; the second at the mental battle over the mind of Theoden in Rohan.)
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  2. #27
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    This topic just goes to show that everyone who has even peeked in this forum needs to get a copy of Tolkien's letters. I cherish mine and have about every other page dog-eared.
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  3. #28
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    I believe that Tom Bombadil could have gone toe to toe with sauron if he had the ring. I dont remember where, but somewhere its written that Sauron could not bring down Tom until *everything* else in M.E had been destroyed, so he could focus solely on Tom. If Sauron has to focus every ounce of his strength on the guy to beat him, what would happen if Tom had all his power AND the ring? I would bet on Tom winning.
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  4. #29

    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Except Tom wasn't like that. He would not have bothered to challenge Sauron or anyone else. In the book he did not destroy Old Man Willow, with the wights it sounds like he ushered them off to the Halls of Mandos where they should have gone in the first place. Tom was the ultimate "neutral" party. He would have left the Ring on his kitchen table and happily gathered water-lilies until it was too late to save anything including himself. As is stated in the books, eventually the Ring corrupts everyone who wears it. How it corrupts them depends on their internal strengths and weaknesses of character, intellect, etc. Possibly some or all of the Valar could wield the Ring but the book says they would not receive a ship bearing the Ring. After the first age they decided not to interfere in the affairs of Middle-earth as their good intentions brought bad results. They laid down their guardianship totally when Numenor invaded and Valinor was removed from the "mortal realm" for lack of a better word. The exception to the non-interference policy was the sending of the Istari but they were sent to inspire but not take direct control over the free peoples, obviously Saruman failed on that task.
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  5. #30
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    Actually it said "of the others, only Gandalf..." and in the setting, Tolkien might have been restricting himself to the forces of good. Sauruman, having fallen, would not be counted among that number.

    As for sheer power...Sauruman was clearly the superior of Gandalf the Grey, but Gandalf the White was the superior of Sauruman. We know this from the two duels they had directly (the first resulting in Gandalf's imprisonment in Orthanc; the second at the mental battle over the mind of Theoden in Rohan.)
    It's also worth noting that Olorin (Gandalf) was originally considered to be "the White" among the Istari, because of his great wisdom and power. He was humble (and virtuous) and did not desire pre-eminence. While Gandalf and Sauruman may have been close to one another in knowledge, skill, and power, I believe that Gandalf was always more virtuous and pure of heart, which in the end is the greatest power there is. (Another Sam fan here!)

    When I initially answered this thread, btw... I didn't take the question of "able to wield" to mean able to put the thing on and go solo Sauron, lol. I took it to mean able to wield it for it's actual purpose: Commanding and dominating the wills of others. Frodo did "use" the ring in this manner with Gollum, but this was obviously on a tiny scale, only involving one weak halfling. The others I listed already commanded respect and obedience of others, being lords among elves or men. They would indeed be able to "wield" the Ring to expand and enhance their ability to command and dominate others. (Yeah, it wouldn't last long for most, because Sauron would show up and pwn them anyway, and take his Ring back.)

  6. #31
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    I would be lead to believe, and have no doubt, still that noone can wield the Ring. Obviously wielding it would be as using it as a "tool" for good or evil. One thing you have to understand is that the second anyone besides Sauron wields the ring, if they chose to keep it on, would be easily drawn to him. It is inevitable to be that way. Also, like I said before carrying on a chain or in your pocket, without wearing it, is not to Wield it. Just making that clear

    Thus, Gandalf, Galadriel, and Saruman, though they may seem more powerful than others, They're not equal or higher to the immortal power of Sauron. Its a good thing, then that there still was a chance to destroy him by destroying the ring. Because that the only way, sorry to be a broken record, thats the truth.
    If Galadriel took the ring, she would likely become the queen and/or puppet of Sauron, or so she thought. Her increased power would most likely flow from her connection to Sauron, she would be turned into a dark, evil, and powerful witch. But, Sauron would still be the most powerful of them both. I would be lead to think Galadriel would become somewhat of a puppet to Sauron.
    Last edited by MarkusLoTR81; Mar 01 2009 at 01:17 PM.
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  7. #32

    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    man, i need to get a copy of Tolkien's letters because this conversation is probably the most interesting i have ever read on these forums.

    I just want to make a point about the earlier statement that Galadriel was the most powerful elf and that Elrond wasn't able to match her power. Elrond was given the most powerful of the 3 elven rings, so therefore i would be lead to believe that he was the most powerful to begin with. in that case, if you believe that Galadriel would be able to give Sauron a run for his money while wielding the ring, then Elrond would do even better against him.
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  8. Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Galadriel was born and raised in Valinor during the Days of the Trees. My money is on her, for reasons not the least of which is that she SAW the Two Trees; and that tends to give the viewer an almost supernatural edge over those that haven't.
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  9. #34
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkusLoTR81 View Post
    Thus, Gandalf, Galadriel, and Saruman, though they may seem more powerful than others, They're not equal or higher to the immortal power of Sauron. Its a good thing, then that there still was a chance to destroy him by destroying the ring. Because that the only way, sorry to be a broken record, thats the truth.
    If Galadriel took the ring, she would likely become the queen and/or puppet of Sauron, or so she thought. Her increased power would most likely flow from her connection to Sauron, she would be turned into a dark, evil, and powerful witch. But, Sauron would still be the most powerful of them both. I would be lead to think Galadriel would become somewhat of a puppet to Sauron.
    I'll have to disagree. As was pointed out by MithrilSoul, Tolkien himself suggested that Gandalf might have been able to best Sauron and become a Dark Lord far worse. As for Galadriel, although she may have been overconfident in her abilities, I really don't think she'd have ever become the queen of Sauron. In fact, she says:
    And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!
    Note, she does not say "alongside the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen", but rather "in place of the Dark Lord". This suggests that she believed herself to be capable of fully supplanting Sauron. Perhaps, her words were not mere overconfidence, but a glimpse of a possible future. It's intriguing to think she may have seen her rise to power playing out in the Mirror. From what we know of the Mirror, this is more than possible; For Galadriel tells the hobbits:
    What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, things that yet may be.

    [. . .]

    Remember that the Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds.
    It is quite likely that Galadriel saw a future that never came to pass. And thus, her willingness to avoid the Ring's temptation was likely even more of a struggle to master her own will than is presented. Knowing what would or could happen if she took the Ring must have been a heavy burden upon her heart. This adds a great deal of weight to her words when she finally masters her will and exclaims: "I pass the test".
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  10. #35
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by IAmExterminator View Post
    man, i need to get a copy of Tolkien's letters because this conversation is probably the most interesting i have ever read on these forums.
    Yep, his letters are fascinating. Well, many of them are. Some are relatively boring (letters to his publisher regarding progress on the book, etc.) Some are interesting only from the standpoint of Tolkien's personal life--letters to his sons and so forth, including a very interesting one where he warns one of his sons sternly about a dangerous new political leader rising to prominence in Germany: Adolf Hitler. For those interested in some of the (highly religious, usually Catholic) symbolism behind a lot of the figures and objects in the trilogy, he talks at length about that. Lots of clarifications and locations, times, distances, stuff like that. At least one really interesting letter where he talks at length about Frodo ultimately "failing" at his task--i.e. being unable of his own free will to actually destroy the ring, and why Tolkien thought it was so necessary for the story for Frodo to fail. All kinds of neat little tidbits, in one handy and reasonably-sized volume. Definitely worth the $14.95 cover price or whatever you can get it for on Amazon.

    I just want to make a point about the earlier statement that Galadriel was the most powerful elf and that Elrond wasn't able to match her power. Elrond was given the most powerful of the 3 elven rings, so therefore i would be lead to believe that he was the most powerful to begin with. in that case, if you believe that Galadriel would be able to give Sauron a run for his money while wielding the ring, then Elrond would do even better against him.
    I would disagree with this assessment for a few reasons:

    1. Elrond was not one of the "original" possessors of the rings. Upon crafting the 3 elven rings of power, Celebrimbor gave two (Vilya and Narya) to Gil-galad (then High King of the Noldor) with Vilya being the most powerful of the three; and he gave one (Nenya) to Galadriel. So Elrond didn't "make the cut" as one of the original ring-bearers. At some point later Gil-galad entrusted the lesser of his two rings, Narya, to Cirdan. So Elrond missed the cut again. It wasn't until right before the great war of the Last Alliance that Gil-galad, perhaps sensing that his own death was imminent, entrusted Vilya to Elrond. (And of course when the wizards, the Istari, arrived at the Gray Havens, Cirdan in turn passed along Narya to Gandalf.) So despite the fact that Elrond indeed possessed the most powerful of the rings by the time we are at the period of LoTR, he was not an original ring-bearer nor even the first choice as a replacement ring-bearer, but the second choice behind Cirdan.

    2. As someone else already mentioned, there is also the fact that Galadriel had once resided in Valinor and thus lived in the presence of the Two Trees. When Frodo is recovering in Rivendell after the flight to the Ford, Gandalf explains it this way:

    "And here in Rivendell there still live some of his [Sauron's] chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power."

    "I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?" [asked Frodo]

    "Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes."


    The point I am making by this is that Elrond never dwelt in Valinor and thus what is said above about Glorfindel would not apply to Elrond. But it most certainly would apply to Galadriel; and when it comes to blood lines, hers would be a far more powerful line than Glorfindel, as Galadriel is the daughter of Finarfin, one of the sons of Finwë of whose house the entire High Kingship of the Noldor is descended.
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Interesting, thanks for your input Reddhawk. I guess maybe Galadriel wouldn't become a dark witch as Sauron is at least, had she gained power of the ring. But I still believe the ring as a corruptive tool for Saurons purpose only. And eventually, had Gandalf or Galadriel or Saruman used it for thier own power, still Sauron would be ever seeking the ring, until its destruction. He exists immortaly with the ring. Even in flesh if he is destroyed, he could in time regain his power in a new form. Although not fully until he has the ring.

    I wonder though, it sounds like Galadriel is saying she would possibly have it for good and bad reasons:

    Morning and Night, Beautiful & Terrible, (Light & Dark ? - Good & Evil ?) I guess it's better than Sauron, but I don't think all Middle Earth would want to deal with that either. Seems like a bit of an unpredictable force to me.
    Last edited by MarkusLoTR81; Mar 02 2009 at 12:27 PM.
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  12. Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    I wonder though, it sounds like Galadriel is saying she would possibly have it for good and bad reasons:
    She's saying that the original purpose would be to set all things right, but she also knows it won't be that way indefinitely. She would fall. Also, "terrible" doesn't always mean 'bad' it can also mean utterly powerful.
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  13. #38
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkusLoTR81 View Post
    Interesting, thanks for your input Reddhawk. I guess maybe Galadriel wouldn't become a dark witch as Sauron is at least, had she gained power of the ring. But I still believe the ring as a corruptive tool for Saurons purpose only. And eventually, had Gandalf or Galadriel or Saruman used it for thier own power, still Sauron would be ever seeking the ring, until its destruction. He exists immortaly with the ring. Even in flesh if he is destroyed, he could in time regain his power in a new form. Although not fully until he has the ring.
    Well, I believe this has already been answered by Tolkien as well. Referring to the quotes used by MithrilSoul:
    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken forever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.
    I'm not so certain it would have been the same with Galadriel (being an elf, rather than a maia), however this statement does show us that Sauron's defeat could come in several ways. Even still, as Tolkien points out, the corruptive force of the Ring would still endure. Sauron might also still exist, though likely as a bodiless spectre and perhaps even cast out into the void, but he would have been weakened and ruined beyond all hope of return to his former power.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkusLoTR81 View Post
    I wonder though, it sounds like Galadriel is saying she would possibly have it for good and bad reasons:

    Morning and Night, Beautiful & Terrible, (Light & Dark ? - Good & Evil ?) I guess it's better than Sauron, but I don't think all Middle Earth would want to deal with that either. Seems like a bit of an unpredictable force to me.
    Again, I'll have to refer to the quotes:
    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    "Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous,' but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good,' and the benefit of subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great)." [. . .] "Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left 'good' clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil."
    It's quite likely that the contrast you have noticed in Galadriel's words are referring to a similar intermingling of good and evil. I think she compares herself to natural phenomenon to great effect. What she is in effect saying is that she would have the beauty of nature, but also the unpredictability--she would be treacherous and, perhaps, even indifferent to the cares of others.
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    The point I am making by this is that Elrond never dwelt in Valinor and thus what is said above about Glorfindel would not apply to Elrond. But it most certainly would apply to Galadriel; and when it comes to blood lines, hers would be a far more powerful line than Glorfindel, as Galadriel is the daughter of Finarfin, one of the sons of Finwë of whose house the entire High Kingship of the Noldor is descended.
    Have to agree with MithrilSoul... Galadriel is truly one of the most powerful elves in the history of ME, not just the 3rd Age. She is from Valinor and ultimately the queen of the Nolder due to her lineage. Her uncle wounded Morgoth seven times... she was truly on the high-end of elvish power. We should also remember that while powerful and choosing an immortal life Elrond was in fact half-elven which would also limit his power (at least in my opinion).

    I would say though that anyone other than a Maia would have a very difficult time facing off against Sauron. There is only one Elf whoever bested him and that was Luthien -- and she was half-Maia.

    I also think the films are very misleading about the history of the elves and Maia -- and only mildly suggest their true power and greatly diminish it (seriously I am pretty confident that Tolkien would never have agreed that the Witch-King could compare to Gandalf the White as the movie suggests). While Sauron is weak due to just taking physical form and not having the ring, he is still the most powerful being on ME even at this time. To face off against him is not wise for any on ME in the late 3rd Age.

    Anyway, awesome discussion. Yes, I am going through Tolkien's letters... I had forgotten about a lot of these.
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  15. #40
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Chuck Norris would give the ring to Sauron, round house kick him, then take it back.
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orrere View Post
    I also think the films are very misleading about the history of the elves and Maia -- and only mildly suggest their true power and greatly diminish it (seriously I am pretty confident that Tolkien would never have agreed that the Witch-King could compare to Gandalf the White as the movie suggests). While Sauron is weak due to just taking physical form and not having the ring, he is still the most powerful being on ME even at this time. To face off against him is not wise for any on ME in the late 3rd Age.
    I totally agree. When i saw the scene in the extended RotK where the witch king shatters Gandalf's staff, I wanted to punch something. The witch king was basically man, just in wraith form and more powerful because of the ring he had. Gandalf was not a Man, or Elf. He was a Maia. Witch King vs Gandalf is like a twig vs a sword. There was no real contest.
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by sir-rinthian View Post
    I totally agree. When i saw the scene in the extended RotK where the witch king shatters Gandalf's staff, I wanted to punch something. The witch king was basically man, just in wraith form and more powerful because of the ring he had. Gandalf was not a Man, or Elf. He was a Maia. Witch King vs Gandalf is like a twig vs a sword. There was no real contest.
    Yup. That one ranks right up there with Faramir the power-hungry jerk.

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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir, Any of the Istari, Galadriel, Celeborn, Cirdan, Thranduil, Imrahil, Dain, The Witch-King, Khamul, that's all I can think of atm.

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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Technically, the witch king couldnt wield the One Ring. He was Saurons servant - If he had tried to take the ring, sauron would have reclaim it by force of arms, then crumpled him into a little ball...
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  20. #45
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    It's hard to imagine a situation at the end of the Third Age where the Witch-King would get the chance to wield the Ring. He and and all of the Nazgul were utterly incapable of defying Sauron, which is why they were the only servants he trusted to hunt the Ringbearer. And if Sauron's not in the picture, the most likely reason is that the Ring itself has been destroyed, which would result in the extinction of all of the Nazgul too. (As shown by actual events in LOTR.)

    But since we're in the realm of What If? anyway, I do imagine that the Captain of the Nazgul might, might have had the power and sufficient free will to wield the Ring, in the (highly implausible) circumstances where he'd have the opportunity. For instance, if Sauron commanded him to wield it. Or if it came into his possession when Sauron was, uh, indisposed. (Like he was for much of the early Third Age.)
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  21. #46
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by BIGeyedBUG View Post
    And if Sauron's not in the picture, the most likely reason is that the Ring itself has been destroyed, which would result in the extinction of all of the Nazgul too. (As shown by actual events in LOTR.)
    I doubt the Witch-king could ever wield the Ring, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he was 'extinct'. Defeated, yes, but maybe not entirely destroyed. In typical Tolkien fashion, this matter, like others, is left ambiguous:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Return of the King, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
    'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.
    This single line seems to leave open the possibility of the Witch-king's return in a later age. I myself imagine that this might have been Tolkien's way of allowing him to return to take part in the Dagor Dagorath.
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  22. #47
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    It is highly doubtful that the Witch-King could wield the Ring. He could not even withstand the power of the lesser 9 rings and fell in thrall to Sauron because of it.

    But wasn't this debate decided when Tolkien's letter was quoted? It stated quite explicitly who could and could not wield it.
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  23. #48
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    A few points i would like to make:

    Galadriel- in some of Tolkien's original transcripts she was said to be the female equivalant of Feanor the most powerful elf who ever lived( Yes I know a bunch of balrog's brought him down when he went after Morgoth and Fingolfen hewed Morgoth's foot, but i really think feanor would of hurt him alot worse. She was one of the Firstborn Noldorin elves in valinor. I think she would have bested Sauron but not utterly destroyed him so he would have remained a shade.

    Elrond, Glorfindel, Cirdan I think all of them as great elf lords, and one having some maia blood as well would have bested Sauron but gain not defeated him utterly.

    Gandalf would have defeated him utterly.

    Saramun unfortunatley was already being used as Sauron's tool and I think in his case Sauron would have pleaded to be his lieutenant or some such thing, like when he surrendered to the numenorians, and would alter overthrow Saramun.

    Now when the forces of good talk about being corrupted by the ring I look at it as taking away mankind's freedom. Think about Gandalf, Elrond or Galadriel having overthrown Sauron dealing with issues like enforcing peace, the haradrim, corsairs etc all would have to bow to them and follow their rules like it or not. War wouldn't be allowed. No one would descerate sacred woods, shire lands etc. They would be constantly imposing more and more rules for the good of mankind and cross the line into becoming despots. Rebellions would spring up and be crushed, in the case of teh elves you would see repeats of dwarf hatred towards them as rulers, men would covet their lifespans etc.

    it would be constant civil war and while trying to do the right thing they would have no choice but to keep fighting
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  24. #49
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by tarkhis View Post

    Galadriel- in some of Tolkien's original transcripts she was said to be the female equivalant of Feanor the most powerful elf who ever lived( Yes I know a bunch of balrog's brought him down when he went after Morgoth and Fingolfen hewed Morgoth's foot, but i really think feanor would of hurt him alot worse. She was one of the Firstborn Noldorin elves in valinor. I think she would have bested Sauron but not utterly destroyed him so he would have remained a shade.
    It's funny you mention this, I was just reading Unfinished Tales today (Part Two, Book IV: "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn") and came across a few relevant passages.

    "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years. Her mother-name was Nerwen ('man-maiden'), and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth. Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was a marvel unmatched. It was golden like the hair of her father and of her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses."

    And then a part that I had never noticed before...but it makes the gift Galadriel gave to Gimli at their parting in Lórien all that more amazing. The paragraph above continues in a bit:

    For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever."


    WOW. I can only imagine what Fëanor would have thought (had he still been alive) if he would have learned that Galadriel gave a dwarf three of her hairs upon request, after rejecting his (Fëanor's) request three times. Ouch! Anyways, besides the interesting tidbit about the hairs, I think the greater thing this shows is how incredibly powerful Galadriel was even by the standards of the Eldar.
    Last edited by MithrilSoul; Mar 04 2009 at 08:39 PM.
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  25. #50

    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Agreed MithrilSoul. I thought that part about Galadriel and Feanor and the contrast to her interaction with Gimli was pretty cool too. I wonder if Galadriel giving Gimli three hairs when he asked for but a single strand had anything to do with Feanor's three requests.

    I am a big Galadriel fan and wonder at her overall motivations in the Third Age. Tolkien seems to have conceived of her as one of the most puissant beings abiding in ME at the time, but for the most part she limits herself to preserving and shielding Lothlorien and does not generally oppose Sauron in a broader, more active way (apart from her participation in the White Council, which really doesn't seem to have done all that much). I wonder if she was just really burned out after everything that happened to her family in the great struggles against Morgoth. Also, she once lived for a time at Doriath as something of a companion to Melian, and I wonder how the fall of Doriath may have affected her. Or maybe Tolkien was simply influenced by the culture of his era and had a very limited scope for women of action in his stories.
    Last edited by Vilnas; Mar 04 2009 at 08:57 PM.
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