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  1. #76
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darxar View Post
    when the "One Ring" was destroyed, what happend to the other rights..
    Im assuming "rights" is a typo of "rings".

    The power of the other rings dwindled when the One Ring was destroyed. Anything that had been created or preserved by them would no long remain. Lothlorien was an example of the preservation of the rings. Galadriel used her ring to preserve the ancient beauty of those trees, and the land around them - beauty that would have faded years ago were it not for the power of the ring. When the One Ring was destroyed, she lost the ability to preserve that region, so in theory it would kind of die off.
    Last edited by sir-rinthian; Mar 09 2009 at 04:14 PM.
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  2. #77

    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    I doubt the Witch-king could ever wield the Ring, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he was 'extinct'. Defeated, yes, but maybe not entirely destroyed. In typical Tolkien fashion, this matter, like others, is left ambiguous:
    This single line seems to leave open the possibility of the Witch-king's return in a later age. I myself imagine that this might have been Tolkien's way of allowing him to return to take part in the Dagor Dagorath.
    While the book is in a box, didn't "that age of the world" end less than a month afterwards?

  3. #78
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by sir-rinthian View Post

    The power of the other rings dwindled when the One Ring was destroyed.
    What I have never understood is *why* this was the case for the three elven rings. The One was never involved in the crafting of the elven rings. If the One Ring had never existed at all, would the power of the three elven rings dwindled? If so, why? And if not, why would the fact that Sauron (on his own, and completely independently) crafted a ring of his own, have anything at all to do with the elven three? Was it somehow that the three became "drained" as they fought against the One, kinda like a slow leaching of their power? But if that was the case, then the destruction of the One should have been a *good* thing for the three, not a bad thing.

    I mean, I know what Tolkien said, I'm just trying to figure out if there is any logical explanation for why this should be the case. So far, I haven't been able to come up with one, and have never read an explanation from anyone else that connects the dots in a way that is persuasive to me.
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  4. #79
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draegloth View Post
    While the book is in a box, didn't "that age of the world" end less than a month afterwards?
    Actually it lasted for another 2 years, but my point was not in regards to the age. It's likely that Tolkien only intended that passage to be poetic, but the way he words it seems to suggest the possibility of the Witch-king's return in a later age.
    "...a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world."
    It's that last part that has me wondering just what was going through Tolkien's mind. I mean, why not stop at "...was never heard again."? As it is, it seems to be excluding the Third Age from the list of ages in which the Witch-king's voice was heard again. I read it as: the voice "was never heard again in THAT age"; okay, so was it, perhaps, heard again in later ages?

    Regardless, I think it offers just enough leeway to imagine the Witch-king's involvement in the final battle of Earth/Arda.
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  5. #80
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    What I have never understood is *why* this was the case for the three elven rings. The One was never involved in the crafting of the elven rings. If the One Ring had never existed at all, would the power of the three elven rings dwindled?

    [. . .]

    I mean, I know what Tolkien said, I'm just trying to figure out if there is any logical explanation for why this should be the case. So far, I haven't been able to come up with one, and have never read an explanation from anyone else that connects the dots in a way that is persuasive to me.
    I think it is due to the fact that the Three Elven Rings were made with knowledge obtained from Annatar (Sauron). The One Ring was connected to the Three, but held no power of control over them or their bearers. This was, of course, due to the fact that they were forged by Celebrimbor, using Sauron's techniques, but without his direct aid. We know the One was connected to the Three from clues such as Galadriel's discussion with Frodo concerning why he (the bearer of the One) was able to see her ring. So, the Three were still affected by the One, even if they were resistant to its control.
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  6. #81
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddhawk View Post
    I think it is due to the fact that the Three Elven Rings were made with knowledge obtained from Annatar (Sauron). The One Ring was connected to the Three, but held no power of control over them or their bearers. This was, of course, due to the fact that they were forged by Celebrimbor, using Sauron's techniques, but without his direct aid. We know the One was connected to the Three from clues such as Galadriel's discussion with Frodo concerning why he (the bearer of the One) was able to see her ring. So, the Three were still affected by the One, even if they were resistant to its control.
    Okay getting closer but still not convinced. Was it the fact the three were made with "Sauron's techniques" the critical thing? If that's the case, it would imply Sauron would have some sort of control/influence over them even if he had never made the One. It would also call into question why the elves didn't immediately destroy the three rings as soon as it was revealed to them what the actual identity of Annatar was.

    Or, was it something directly related to the actual creation of the One that was critical? That the three would have simply been pristine, "entirely good" elven rings if the One had never been made, but that something about the crafting of the One corrupted them? And if that's the case, *what* could this "something" be?
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  7. #82
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    My...theory, I'll call it, is that the ring-lore that Sauron gave the Elven-smiths which was used to create the Three was from the beginning tainted with the seeds of domination by Sauron.

    An amusing "mechanical" analogy would be a high-tech company (The Gwaith-i-Mirdain) hiring a network security consultant (Sauron) to advise them on how to make their new computer systems (The Rings of Power) secure from the ground up. Unbeknownst to them, there is one critical backdoor he keeps to himself, for the purpose of exploiting it later, once they've become dependent on their new systems, and taking control of their entire network.

    But I like to imagine that Tolkien thought of it in a kind of theological way. The Elven-smiths gave in to temptation: lust for knowledge; and the pride of trying to halt time and prevent the fading of the Elves. Those sins were a kind of Christian Fall, opening the Elves and their works up to the will of evil, as personified at the time by Sauron.


    edited for a lil' more clarity.
    Last edited by BIGeyedBUG; Mar 28 2009 at 08:50 PM.
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  8. #83
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Theirs no one in Middle Earth that could wield the One Ring and take control of it, the only being that could is Morgoth, Saurons Master or one of the most powerful Valar And i don't think there's any of the Valar would wish to weild it cause they wouldn't wish to wear a corrupted item like the One Ring, the only ones what would has already followed Morgoth in the dim beginnings of the first age. I guess there is one in Middle Earth that could wield it,, but that being perished by the Grey Wizard's Hand. Anyone else would be controlled and corrupted by the ring(if they wasn't already corrupted to begin with).
    Last edited by Dawnn; Apr 01 2009 at 10:27 PM. Reason: added a last thought
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  9. #84

    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    Okay getting closer but still not convinced. Was it the fact the three were made with "Sauron's techniques" the critical thing? If that's the case, it would imply Sauron would have some sort of control/influence over them even if he had never made the One. It would also call into question why the elves didn't immediately destroy the three rings as soon as it was revealed to them what the actual identity of Annatar was.

    Or, was it something directly related to the actual creation of the One that was critical? That the three would have simply been pristine, "entirely good" elven rings if the One had never been made, but that something about the crafting of the One corrupted them? And if that's the case, *what* could this "something" be?
    The One ring was made to dominate and control the minds of lesser beings. Stop and think about what it was that the Three rings were used for. To control and in a way, dominate. Galadriel used her ring to preserve Lothlorien, but to do that she must control/dominate Lothlorien in a way that preserves it according to her wishes. The same with Elrond in Rivendell. While the result of that use (the preservation of those areas) is belevolent, the manner of achieving that result is through control and domination over the areas around them. The third ring was with Cirdan at the Grey Havens, then with Gandalf. Presumably Cirdan used that ring for the same purpose, to preserve the area.

    When the one ring is destroyed, Sauron's power is destroyed, and the power of the three rings as well. This implies that there is some inherrent aspect of Sauron's power/will within the three rings. Sauron had no direct contact with the three rings but the knowledge used to create the three rings came from him. Therefore, the answer is that the knowledge used to created the three rings contains some undividable aspect of Sauron's will within it. Using that knowledge will create a link between the ring that is made and Sauron who was the source of that knowledge. Could it be possible to create a ring of equal power to the three rings but without using that same knowledge, and therefore sidestep connecting the ring to Sauron? That's impossible to say, JRRT never mentioned any other rings equal to the Three that were made without Sauron's direct involvement (the seven Dwarf rings and the nine rings of Men were made WITH Sauron's involvement. It's briefly mentioned somewhere that Saruman experimented with making rings but they were of far less power than the rings created by Sauron).

    JRRT never explained exactly what aspect of Sauron's will existed within the knowledge used to create the three rings, only that there was a definate connection and the end of Sauron's power also caused the end of the power of the three rings. If you're asking for an exact explanation of what that exact detail is, JRRT never said so, so there is no exact answer to your question, just speculation.

  10. #85
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnn View Post
    Theirs no one in Middle Earth that could wield the One Ring and take control of it, the only being that could is Morgoth, Saurons Master or one of the most powerful Valar And i don't think there's any of the Valar would wish to weild it cause they wouldn't wish to wear a corrupted item like the One Ring, the only ones what would has already followed Morgoth in the dim beginnings of the first age. I guess there is one in Middle Earth that could wield it,, but that being perished by the Grey Wizard's Hand. Anyone else would be controlled and corrupted by the ring(if they wasn't already corrupted to begin with).
    The valar dont really count here, whether they would want to or not. The question was "Who in Middle Earth" - The Valar aren't on Middle Earth, they are on Valinore But yeah, any of them could have come over and taken the ring and broken its power, but they didn't want to. The last time they involved themselves in the affairs of middle earth, it sent the place through thousands of years of earthquakes and volcanoes in, like, 100 years time. It literally broke the place apart. Beleriand was drowned in the ocean because of the termoil caused by the valar fighting with melkor/morgoth. They kept themselves apart from the troubles of middle earth, for middle earths own good.

    But as has been before stated, Gandalf the White could have taken the ring and destroyed sauron with it. But he would have become worse then sauron by doing so, so he chose not to. There were plenty of others that would have had the power to weild the ring, and give sauron a run for his money. But in the end, he would gain control over them through the ring. Gandalf was the only one that sauron couldn't defeat (with the ring)
    Last edited by sir-rinthian; Apr 15 2009 at 05:36 PM.
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  11. #86
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    why cant gandalf use the ring to kill sauron the immediately destroy it in the mount doom ?

    or maybe give the ring to the king of ents (fangorn) ?

    Gollum had the rings for hundred of years yet he is not ambitious enough to conquer middle earth.. so power of the ring is limited..

    even if galadriel have the ring, she dont have an army to conquer middle earth..

    so the real power of the ring is suggestion ? sauron without the ring still can take on armies of middle earth..

  12. #87

    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    The power of the ring is actually dependant on the inner power of the user, not that the ring itself is not powerful, but the user must be able to weild it. It would seem the ring is itself in some way(at least slightly)sentient, it knows what it wants and will work its way to that goal. It was kept on a chain for a reason, it was constantly trying to slip off or away from the ringbearer. As for why those you listed can't use it, well most of them tell you why in the books. Galadriel knows that she will take the ring and use it, and she will use it for good(at least in her mind at first), the same is true for Gandalf, both would be tempted to use the ring to 'fix' what they see as wrong, but in this the ring will have overcome them, by turning good, evil as it were.

    In Gandalfs case this would lead to a world with no free will, not because he is evil,but because he would not want people to stumble down paths that would cause harm. This itself would lead to him being a despot, for with out free will, you have no freedom, I also believe this is what would happen with Galadriel,except as she says, she will be a queen, and all shall love her through the power of the ring, but still evil will come of it. Also she would not need to have an established army, neither would Gandalf, the ring would allow them to control an army, and once they threw down Sauron, they would be able to take over his armies, probably with no problems.
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  13. #88
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspellgrey View Post
    Also she would not need to have an established army, neither would Gandalf, the ring would allow them to control an army, and once they threw down Sauron, they would be able to take over his armies, probably with no problems.
    Very true. Remember when Frodo decided to keep the ring when he was in Mount Doom? Sauron forgot all about his army at the gate - the orcs lost a lot of their will to fight without Sauron's will bent upon them. Once Sauron was destroyed, whoever had the ring would have been able to take control of them as easily as picking up a pebble. Provided, of course, that the wielder of the ring had the power to use the ring.
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  14. #89
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnarr View Post

    Adding a historical reference, remember that Sauron was once of the Valar...

    ...Melkor (later called Sauron) ...

    So even Gandolf (Olórin, when of the Valar in that age) would be at odds with the power of Sauron (Melkor).

    .

    No, no, and no. This is all completely incorrect.

    Sauron was Morgoth's servant. Morgoth was originally called Melkor, not Sauron.

    Sauron was a Maia, not a Vala. The Maiar are much less powerful than the Valar.

    Also, Gandalf was also a Maia (of a specific 'order' of Maiar known as the Istari) not a Vala.

    Tolkien explicitly stated in one of his letters that Gandalf could have taken the ring and made it his own, utterly defeating Sauron (and then Gandalf would become an even worse Dark Lord). The relevant excerpts from that letter are posted in this thread.
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  15. #90
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    Re: who in M.E. could actually wield the One Ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    why cant gandalf use the ring to kill sauron the immediately destroy it in the mount doom ?
    Theres the problem. How long would that take? And how long would it take for the ring to gain a hold over Gandalf? If he were to use its full power, I would guess that within a day or so he would no longer have the strength of will to destroy it. Sauron wasn't the only problem. After he is dead, you have all the evil men and orcs and trolls and ring wraiths left to deal with. That could take months or years without the ring. It might even be impossible. With the ring, Gandalf could just take over leadership of them. But then he is stuck using the ring to keep them from destroying the free peoples.

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    or maybe give the ring to the king of ents (fangorn) ?
    That would probably backfire. A tiny little ring would be pretty easy for an ent to lose. Also, what if Fanghorn was overcome by the ring? We saw how easily he wiped out Isenguard and its armies with the Ents and the Huorns. If he became evil, there wouldn't be much left of middle earth when he was done with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    Gollum had the rings for hundred of years yet he is not ambitious enough to conquer middle earth.. so power of the ring is limited..
    The power of the ring is somewhat dependant on the inner strength of the wielder. A wimpy little thing like gollum didnt have the inner strength to use any of the rings power.

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    even if galadriel have the ring, she dont have an army to conquer middle earth..
    The power of the ring would have let her take control of Sauron's army fairly easily, or any other army for that matter. And also, she did have an army. Although the movies and books dont talk about it much, she was fighting a war all on her own around Lorien. Same with the dwarves - armies far bigger then those used against Gondor were thrown against the dwarf fortresses.

    Quote Originally Posted by rindaleo View Post
    so the real power of the ring is suggestion ? sauron without the ring still can take on armies of middle earth..
    Not alone... The power of the ring originally came from him, so even without it he still held a lesser amount of the power that was within the ring. Therefore even without the ring, he was still quite able to command vast armies.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greythorne View Post
    No, no, and no. This is all completely incorrect.

    Sauron was Morgoth's servant. Morgoth was originally called Melkor, not Sauron.
    Yeah... I really wish people could get that right
    Last edited by sir-rinthian; Apr 21 2009 at 02:09 PM.
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