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  1. #1
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    Unfinished Tales?

    It was a big blow to me when i found out that Tolkien family will not give turbine the wrights to unfinished tales. In 5 years or so from now when the war of the ring is over what will happen to lotro. We would have nohing to do except dance in poppy feilds where Baradur once stood.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Unfinished Tales?

    Since UT all deals with stuff before LOTR, I don't think it matters much. The Fourth Age is pretty much an open book for Turbine if they ever get around to it.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Unfinished Tales?

    Let's get through the War of the Ring first.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Unfinished Tales?

    There are no limits to what Turbine can do. There are huge...and I mean, HUGE...swaths of lands that lie to the south and east of Mordor. Umbar, near & far Harad...plenty of space. Indeed, the total land mass taken up by these lands is likely larger than all of Eriador, Rhovanion, Rohan, Gondor, and Mordor put together. However many years it takes the game to move from the Shire to destruction of the ring, I think you could easily get an equal number of years out of the game just dealing with the lands immediately beyond Gondor & Mordor. Towards the end of LoTR Sauron began making some significant use of the evil men (mostly) who dwell in those areas, the Haradrim and so forth...but only a bit. As was recently pointed out in another thread on these forums, "man for man" those were significantly more robust opponents than orcs or goblins are going to be. Far more organized, far more intelligent, far more lethal. There were still some remnants of the Black Númenoreans hanging around (the "Mouth of Sauron" was a Black Númenorean), so these would be men of a similar type of lineage as Boromir and Aragorn, but wholly given over to evil. There are almost unlimited possibilities for developing a storyline around them. Indeed if you created the idea of some sort of evil King black Númenorean, you could plausibly argue that many of the orcs, trolls, and other vile creatures who escaped the destruction of the ring and scattered may have eventually re-gathered under the direction of just this sort of figure. (It seems as if these creatures tended to rather quickly gravitate in their allegiance to the most powerful evil figure they could find.)

    Even with the downfall of the One Ring the fate of Shelob is still up in the air (injured, yes, but killed? Nothing from Tolkien tells us she was, AFAIK.) Not to mention Ungoliant has been "missing" for several ages. We also can presume that during the thousands of years those two were on the loose, that they produced broods of lesser spiderlings that nonetheless would be more powerful than any of the spider "bosses" we have seen to date. We also don't know the full extent of evil Maia in the world; Sauron was one such, but the balrogs are as well--and not all of the balrogs are accounted for. Nor are we positive that all of the ancient dragons are accounted for, nor that there might not have been additional dragons whose existence is as yet unknown to the free peoples.

    Almost all of this is based on speculation found at least in "seed" form in LoTR and/or its appendices.
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  5. #5

    Re: Unfinished Tales?

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    Not to mention Ungoliant has been "missing" for several ages.
    Is she mentioned in the trilogy? I know Turbine doesn't have the rights to use content that's only mentioned in the Silmarillion...

  6. #6
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    Re: Unfinished Tales?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormwaltz View Post
    Is she mentioned in the trilogy? I know Turbine doesn't have the rights to use content that's only mentioned in the Silmarillion...
    Ya I wasn't sure about her...thus the last line of my previous post containing the phrase "almost all of this..." as I wasn't sure if quite all of it is there or not.

    EDIT: Yep, she is there!

    "How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself... Far and wide her lesser broods, ######## of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Dúath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastness of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world."

    -- The Two Towers, Book IV, Chapter 9 ("Shelob's Lair")
    Last edited by MithrilSoul; Feb 24 2009 at 06:22 PM.
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  7. Re: Unfinished Tales?

    Not to mention Ungoliant has been "missing" for several ages.
    Even if Turbine put her in the game, there is no way on Iluvatar's green Earth that we would be able to fight her and stay true to the lore. She was strong enough to nearly defeat Morgoth, and even a full raid wouldn't rival his strength.

    As much as the nerd in me WANTS to see her, I wouldn't be happy to, lore-wise.
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  8. #8
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    Re: Unfinished Tales?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    Even if Turbine put her in the game, there is no way on Iluvatar's green Earth that we would be able to fight her and stay true to the lore. She was strong enough to nearly defeat Morgoth, and even a full raid wouldn't rival his strength.

    As much as the nerd in me WANTS to see her, I wouldn't be happy to, lore-wise.
    Fingolfin nearly defeated Morgoth in solo combat. Or maybe more accurately, was battling him to a draw until eventually he began to tire and tripped on the edge of one of the craters in the ground created by Grond, leading to his demise. Now granted, there are none left in middle earth by the end of the Third Age (not even Galadriel, though she we be the closest) who possessed the kind of "power" that Fingolfin had. And certainly our player characters are not even close to that. Nonetheless, the point I am making is that if Fingolfin could effectively battle Morgoth to a draw, and Ungoliant also effectively fought Morgoth to a draw... who knows.

    We wouldn't have to defeat her; judging from the behavior of the spiders we encounter in the books (at least the two we've mentioned), they don't take kindly to injury of any kind, and tend to not stick around if they are wounded to any serious degree at all. So while having a raid "kill" Ungoliant might be completely out of the question, from a lore perspective, having a raid of heroes (this is post-destruction of the One Ring, remember) be able to injure Ungoliant enough to drive her off... that might, perhaps, be within the bounds of believability.
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  9. Re: Unfinished Tales?

    It wasn't a draw of any kind. Fingolfin just mastered the skill of the hop-outta-the-way-of-danger, until he ran out of energy. While he is my favorite Elf and I absolutely love how he gave Morgoth a limp, even that injury was inconsequential. Fingolfin literally got the snot beaten out of him.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Unfinished Tales?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    It wasn't a draw of any kind. Fingolfin just mastered the skill of the hop-outta-the-way-of-danger, until he ran out of energy. While he is my favorite Elf and I absolutely love how he gave Morgoth a limp, even that injury was inconsequential. Fingolfin literally got the snot beaten out of him.
    I beg greatly to differ. Let's pick up the discussion as the battle commences:

    "Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground. And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.

    Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted. Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away, as a lightning shoots from under a dark cloud; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands.

    But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.

    Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old. The Orcs made no boast of that duel at the gate; neither do the Elves sing of it, for their sorrow is too deep... Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed..."

    - The Silmarillion, Chap. 18 ("Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin")

    That doesn't sound like getting the snot beaten out of him to me. It sounds like someone fighting an enemy probably....what...five times his height? Ten times? Obviously he is not going to go toe-to-toe in that situation. So he takes advantage of his superior agility to avoid (in LOTRO language, "evade") Morgoth's attacks and in turn counter-attacking. We can't know the exact extent of the injuries he dealt Morgoth but I would interpret them as significant, as it says Morgoth wailed in "anguish" at each one (not just the final wound in the foot!), with wails so loud that it caused all of his entire gathered host to fall on their faces in dismay (!!!). I don't see how the initial part of the battle can be interpreted in any other way than Fingolfin having the upper hand; there is no evidence presented that he was in the slightest way wounded or even dismayed by the attempts at Morgoth to hit him.

    It is only after Fingolfin begins to tire (a disadvantage any "creature" would have when fighting a Vala) that the tone of the battle turns. Even then, three times he rises even after being "crushed to his knees" to continue fighting. It is only an unlucky turn of events--him stumbling backwards in the pitted earth--that finally allows Morgoth to pin him to the ground with his foot. At which point, before he was slain, Fingolfin deals such a massive wound to Morgoth that his blood "filled" all of these huge pits in the ground! That's no small flesh wound...we are talking here about huge pits (probably each one larger than a man and likely several feet deep) being "filled" with Morgoth's blood. And then of course the note at the end that not only did he limp for the rest of his (physical) existence, but he forever felt the pain of ALL of those wounds Fingolfin dealt him--not just that final wound.

    Why, pray tell, did the orcs never make a boast of the duel at the gate? Probably because even they were smart enough to realize that Morgoth really didn't "defeat" Fingolfin as much as he won by accident. Kind of like the finals of, oh, an olympic speedskating competition where there are 2 people fighting it out for the gold medal and on the last lap the one who is in the lead suddenly just wipes out and goes flying into the boards, giving the one who had been running in second (up until that time) the victory. Sure the guy who wins the race gets the gold medal and is happy to have it...but at the same time the joy is a bit muted since he knows deep down inside the only reason he got the gold was because the guy who was beating him screwed up at the end. That's the way I see this fight between Fingolfin and Morgoth. When they were both at full strength, Fingolfin clearly had the upper hand. But eventually his "mortality" (at least in comparison to a Vala) caught up with him, and as he tired the battle shifted and began to favor Morgoth.

    That's how I read it at least. It says a bit before the battle starts that Morgoth was unwilling to accept the challenge of Fingolfin, for he [Morgoth] "knew fear." Reading the account of the battle, it seems as if Morgoth was quite wise to fear Fingolfin, who gave him all he could handle and more.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Unfinished Tales?

    I agree with Arasilion. It's a dramatic scene, and none of the children of Iluvatar, nor an army of them could have done better, but Fingolfin's defeat was a foregone conclusion.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Unfinished Tales?

    Fingolfin ftw!


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  13. Re: Unfinished Tales?

    He hacked his leg, but (as the Black Knight would say) it was only a flesh wound. Fingolfin posed no real threat to Morgoth's life or power.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Unfinished Tales?

    Much of the material in UT is summarized in the Appendices (which are within the license) or referred to within the story itself. UT mainly contains the detailed stories that Tolkien summarized into the Appendices.
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  15. #15
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    Re: Unfinished Tales?

    Quote Originally Posted by pictish1210 View Post
    We would have nohing to do except dance in poppy feilds where Baradur once stood.
    Not a big deal really, but its Barad-Dur, not Baradur. And there wouldnt be flowers there. Its like after a nuke goes off. It takes a while before anything lives in the blast radius.

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    Not to mention Ungoliant has been "missing" for several ages.
    She devoured herself, remember? After the Balrogs broke Morgoth out of her hold she fled to the darkest place she could find, and spent so much time there that she devoured herself in despair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    Even if Turbine put her in the game, there is no way on Iluvatar's green Earth that we would be able to fight her and stay true to the lore. She was strong enough to nearly defeat Morgoth, and even a full raid wouldn't rival his strength.

    As much as the nerd in me WANTS to see her, I wouldn't be happy to, lore-wise.
    Exactly. Again, it took an army of Balrogs to break Morgoth out of her hold. It takes 12 of us to kill 1 Balrog, and I sure dont wanna see a 400 man raid.

    And I'm not sure about you, but... beating on a corpse isnt much fun for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    and Ungoliant also effectively fought Morgoth to a draw... who knows.

    She didnt bring him to a draw, she beat him, and was holding him hostage. You dont get to hold someone hostage after beating them if you havent beaten them yet

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    We wouldn't have to defeat her; judging from the behavior of the spiders we encounter in the books (at least the two we've mentioned), they don't take kindly to injury of any kind, and tend to not stick around if they are wounded to any serious degree at all. So while having a raid "kill" Ungoliant might be completely out of the question, from a lore perspective, having a raid of heroes (this is post-destruction of the One Ring, remember) be able to injure Ungoliant enough to drive her off... that might, perhaps, be within the bounds of believability.
    True, but again. SHES DEAD. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Arasilion View Post
    He hacked his leg, but (as the Black Knight would say) it was only a flesh wound. Fingolfin posed no real threat to Morgoth's life or power.
    True, because technically he was immortal, and while elves are immortal in the sense that they live forever, they can still be killed. Morgoth, I doupt it. The Valar would have taken care of that if they could. Nevertheless, Morgoth was severely injured and felt the pain of his wounds forever after.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Unfinished Tales?

    Thanks for the clarifications regarding Ungoliant & Morgoth, it had been too long since I had read that and my memory failed me!
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  17. Re: Unfinished Tales?

    She devoured herself, remember? After the Balrogs broke Morgoth out of her hold she fled to the darkest place she could find, and spent so much time there that she devoured herself in despair.
    Well, to be fair, this it the generally held consensus among the Wise. Its not absolutely certain what happened to her.

    In fact, in early drafts, Earendil killed her. Who knows?
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  18. #18
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    Re: Unfinished Tales?

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrilSoul View Post
    That doesn't sound like getting the snot beaten out of him to me. It sounds like someone fighting an enemy probably....what...five times his height? Ten times? Obviously he is not going to go toe-to-toe in that situation. So he takes advantage of his superior agility to avoid (in LOTRO language, "evade") Morgoth's attacks and in turn counter-attacking. We can't know the exact extent of the injuries he dealt Morgoth but I would interpret them as significant, as it says Morgoth wailed in "anguish" at each one (not just the final wound in the foot!), with wails so loud that it caused all of his entire gathered host to fall on their faces in dismay (!!!). I don't see how the initial part of the battle can be interpreted in any other way than Fingolfin having the upper hand; there is no evidence presented that he was in the slightest way wounded or even dismayed by the attempts at Morgoth to hit him.
    I always read this as Fingolfin inflicting what would have been seven -mortal- wounds, had morgoth, not been, you know, a vala, and immortal.

    I mean considering that the battle drew on long enough for Fingolfins fatigue to slow him enough for morgoth to "Crush him to his knees", i'd imagine he got quite a few minor blows on, but only 7 deep enough to "cause him to wail in anguish"

    That being said, Fingolfin is by far the most badass elf I can think of, legolas has nothing on him.

    His kingdom had fallen, a man would have despaired, what does he do? say oh HELL no, fly onto his horse, and ride to the gates with such fury the orcs fled from him, believing him to be Orome himself.. then challenged Sauron's-grand-pimp-daddy to a bout of single combat, and inflicted seven MORTAL wounds on him.
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