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  1. #1

    PvP - The Problem is Rating

    My contention is that much of the dissatisfaction/frustration with the Ettenmoors originates from the ratings system. When PvP is slow, it's because one side (or both) is too hesitant to die. Players turtle and only attack when someone (or a small few) overextends and is an easy target for a gank. The opposing side rushes, kills, and then retreats because people are trying to protect or increase their current rating. They go for easy kills. You make a kill with your group, get some renown, and then get out of danger. The mere existence of a rating system has created an insidious influence on gameplay - comparing our rating versus other players is a way to validate the fact (or desire to believe) that we are good players, better than many or most others. It is easy for people to search the leaderboard not only for their own rating, but other players' as well. Do you know yours? Do you know anyone else's, and/or have you heard someone else mention another player's rating? This is what drives current PvP. It is only natural for folks to be concerned with rating, since (presumably) Turbine created it as a barometer of competitive skill. The problem is that it is NOT a measure of skill. It's a measure of someone's ability to get a few pals and quickly crush someone who has no chance due to overwhelming odds and opportunism. There are rare exceptions, but 90% of the time, PvP is a game of ganging up and killing some poor separated player. All too often it is not a battle, but an assasination. This may be a radical idea, but I think that ratings should be eliminated, or changed so that they are not calculated based on how often you kill other players compared to how many times you were killed. Eliminating ratings will make it so that we play for renown, for the competition of battle, and to have fun; not to turtle and protect standing or bragging rights within the PvP leaderboard. If we must have a rating system, perhaps it could be tied it to outposts taken, keeps taken and/or time defended, but not based on how many times a player can gank another. What do you think?

  2. #2

    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Quote Originally Posted by Thularil View Post
    My contention is that much of the dissatisfaction/frustration with the Ettenmoors originates from the ratings system. When PvP is slow, it's because one side (or both) is too hesitant to die. Players turtle and only attack when someone (or a small few) overextends and is an easy target for a gank. The opposing side rushes, kills, and then retreats because people are trying to protect or increase their current rating. They go for easy kills. You make a kill with your group, get some renown, and then get out of danger. The mere existence of a rating system has created an insidious influence on gameplay - comparing our rating versus other players is a way to validate the fact (or desire to believe) that we are good players, better than many or most others. It is easy for people to search the leaderboard not only for their own rating, but other players' as well. Do you know yours? Do you know anyone else's, and/or have you heard someone else mention another player's rating? This is what drives current PvP. It is only natural for folks to be concerned with rating, since (presumably) Turbine created it as a barometer of competitive skill. The problem is that it is NOT a measure of skill. It's a measure of someone's ability to get a few pals and quickly crush someone who has no chance due to overwhelming odds and opportunism. There are rare exceptions, but 90% of the time, PvP is a game of ganging up and killing some poor separated player. All too often it is not a battle, but an assasination. This may be a radical idea, but I think that ratings should be eliminated, or changed so that they are not calculated based on how often you kill other players compared to how many times you were killed. Eliminating ratings will make it so that we play for renown, for the competition of battle, and to have fun; not to turtle and protect standing or bragging rights within the PvP leaderboard. If we must have a rating system, perhaps it could be tied it to outposts taken, keeps taken and/or time defended, but not based on how many times a player can gank another. What do you think?
    There's a reason for ratings in all things

    For example




    They are the #1, The Best at what they do, recognized by all peers, Not the most talented but used their skills in conjunction with teamwork

    Just one reason why there are Ratings,

    These guys earned 5 Stars

    Oh, Hey Dav!!!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b000000080db4/signature.png]Gealachlan[/charsig]

  3. #3
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Quote Originally Posted by Thularil View Post
    It is only natural for folks to be concerned with rating, since (presumably) Turbine created it as a barometer of competitive skill. The problem is that it is NOT a measure of skill. It's a measure of someone's ability to get a few pals and quickly crush someone who has no chance due to overwhelming odds and opportunism.
    actually, i believe its both.

    ratings are there to measure one's success rate in battle. its intended to scale urself, but at the same time, used to show off ur accomplishments.

    its sad to see people turtle up and create stale battles most times in the moors; but without ratings, im pretty sure there will be no one at the moors.

    why do u want to work on something that doesn't even have a "scoreboard"?



    ps: here's something to check people's ratings:
    http://dailystats.theblackappendage....today/Nimrodel
    *Sapience stuff deleted*

  4. #4
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    I think rating should be based on ones ability to create paragraphs.

    Whats with that big B, Geal, Baltimore win something again?
    Last edited by Gladgilrian; Jun 18 2011 at 08:13 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftextWalloftext WalloftextWalloftext...
    Sorry, were you saying something? o.o
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  6. #6
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Rating is an irrelevant number, remove it...people won't play any differently.
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Too long, did not listen.
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  8. #8
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceifwien View Post
    Sorry, were you saying something? o.o
    This and

    Rating is an irrelevant number, remove it...people won't play any differently.
    This.
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  9. #9
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    Rating is an irrelevant number, remove it...people won't play any differently.
    I understand what you're saying and I agree, but what if it had never been part of the game? and even more importantly than rating, no record of deaths or KB's? No wartabs at all.

    I can only compare 2 games in my limited PvP experience, Rift and LOTRO. Only thing you gain in Rift is favor, at the end of a war front you do see dmg done, dmg taken, KB's etc., but no wartab of any sort to stroke epeens with and I don't see the fear of dying in Rift. People are people and I doubt the PvPers in Rift are fundementally different from PvPers in LOTRO.
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  10. #10

    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    To clarify, I think the concept of rating is great. The current system just doesn't measure skill, it rewards ganks. I am pretty sure that the way things are working is not what turbine intends, nor what we as players would prefer. It's simply that players have figured out that ganging up on someone is the best way to improve rating. And because of human nature and that fact that ratings are public, people want to generate a number that makes them look good. It sounds like most of the comments are in line with this. I am not a programmer or game designer, so perhaps there is no way to improve the system and we just have to deal with it. But something tells me it is possible to make it closer to what people want and not an assasination zone. Maybe base rating on OPs or keeps taken and/or defended, quests completed, etc. Or maybe adjust the system so that every player who hits an opposing player after the first does progressively less damage. So, the second player would do 50% less, the third 75% less, etc. Groups could still gank, but it would be a lot harder and players being ganged up on would have a better chance to fight back. In a big battle, there would still be incentive to coordinate and focus fire, but it would encourage folks to maybe hit the same target once and then move on to another or find a target that they could go after themselves.
    I'm not saying that these ideas are the only ones, but I have to think that there is some way to minimize the gank effect. Complaining about turtling or EC/STAB/TA fights goes on all the time because people do it all the time. We can complain, but based on the current system, things will NEVER change because people are going to do what they are incented to do.

  11. #11

    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Quote Originally Posted by Thularil View Post
    To clarify, I think the concept of rating is great. The current system just doesn't measure skill, it rewards ganks. I am pretty sure that the way things are working is not what turbine intends, nor what we as players would prefer. It's simply that players have figured out that ganging up on someone is the best way to improve rating. And because of human nature and that fact that ratings are public, people want to generate a number that makes them look good. It sounds like most of the comments are in line with this.

    I am not a programmer or game designer, so perhaps there is no way to improve the system and we just have to deal with it. But something tells me it is possible to make it closer to what people want and not an assasination zone. Maybe base rating on OPs or keeps taken and/or defended, quests completed, etc.

    Or maybe adjust the system so that every player who hits an opposing player after the first does progressively less damage. So, the second player would do 50% less, the third 75% less, etc. Groups could still gank, but it would be a lot harder and players being ganged up on would have a better chance to fight back. In a big battle, there would still be incentive to coordinate and focus fire, but it would encourage folks to maybe hit the same target once and then move on to another or find a target that they could go after themselves.

    I'm not saying that these ideas are the only ones, but I have to think that there is some way to minimize the gank effect. Complaining about turtling or EC/STAB/TA fights goes on all the time because people do it all the time. We can complain, but based on the current system, things will NEVER change because people are going to do what they are incented to do.
    Richard Nordquist writes, "Just as there's no limit to the number of paragraphs that may appear in an essay, no rule exists regarding the number of sentences that make up a paragraph. If you check out the works by professional writers in our Essay Samplers, you'll find paragraphs as short as a single word and as long as two or three pages." (source)

    However, the convention in forums writing is to be succinct.
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  12. #12

    Red face Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    It would certainly be easier to be succinct and simply complain. In this case, I was hoping to not only name a problem, but also a possible cause, and more important, suggest a potential solution(s). Perhaps a bit complex, but that was my goal.
    Thanks for reading!

  13. #13
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    The problem isn't rating. The problem is and always has been ego. This server's history is completely dominated by numerous digital egos. First there was a massive ego-driven group on one side, then a massive ego driven person with lemmings in tow on the other, each of which, in turn, created even more egos where there likely would have been no ego driven play at all.

    At this point, way too many people have way too many grudges and people they would never give an inch to. It's not going to change. The only thing that would change it is if another server invaded Nimrodel and we all band together in the face of a common enemy. Failing that, I think a few people (on both sides) need to flip for a while to get some perspective.

  14. #14
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Quote Originally Posted by 22Acacia View Post
    I think a few people (on both sides) need to flip for a while to get some perspective.
    I've tried. Freeps frustrate me.

    On a side note, the thing to blame is 1 spider, and 1 spider alone.
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  15. #15
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    I can't lie, I like a somewhat decent rating, but its also never stopped me from running through a raid to WtE and to cause confusion. Ratings come, ratings go, just kill ????
    Last edited by Gladgilrian; Jun 19 2011 at 07:51 PM.
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  16. #16

    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    5 stars or get out.
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  17. #17
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Sometimes I dont really know who Im quoting here but... Your wrong :P Players dont really play games to have fun anymore. Heck, I dont even know why I play, but we lost most of the fun back at... 65? whenever we finished PvE, I think.

    My theory is that the competition went from against computers to against real people. Am I right?

    Ediot: nvm, im wrong. Was thinking of another game /facepalm
    Last edited by myforumacc; Jun 20 2011 at 10:30 PM.

  18. #18
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Quote Originally Posted by 22Acacia View Post
    At this point, way too many people have way too many grudges and people they would never give an inch to. It's not going to change.
    Agreed, and because of this grudge many on either side won't flip.

    Quote Originally Posted by myforumacc View Post
    Sometimes I dont really know who Im quoting here but... Your wrong :P Players dont really play games to have fun anymore. Heck, I dont even know why I play, but we lost most of the fun back at... 65? whenever we finished PvE, I think.

    My theory is that the competition went from against computers to against real people. Am I right?
    Wut?
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  19. #19
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Quote Originally Posted by Emerus View Post
    Wut?
    Oh oops, was thinking of runescape... dont know how i confused the 2 places... I was REALLY tired... at 8pm... Long day, I think. Moving on

    The ego/grudge problems would be solved if we all supported Oaffah lol.

    Too late now lol.

  20. #20

    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    @OP: The issue is perspective. You have none. It sounds like you've never had a high rating, or played at a high skill level. Most (not all) people that have high ratings, ultimately don't care what their rating is -- they simply do not want to let their opponent kill them, for reasons that may/may not include personal grudges, a sense of accomplishment, ratings, to deny their opponent a satisfaction, game mechanics (creeps become more powerful when they get infamy), strategy, etc. All of these come into play in some form or fashion, but a player like you doesn't seem to understand this. You try to simplify the issue, and inaccurately believe that the lack of action in the 'moors revolves solely around rating.

    Ultimately, renown means absolutely nothing for Freeps, so they truly have no reason to 'push' into Creeps unless they become bored or careless. Creeps, however, control their own progression. They gain infamy, they gain rank, they gain skills/strength. They have every incentive to be the 'pushers' of the 'moors. If you're expecting Freeps to start the action, you're looking at the game mechanics of PvMP wrong.

    My advice -- try some different perspective. Play the game as skillfully as you can, rather than as carelessly as you can. Ignore the 'farm' mentality that most people come to the 'moors with, and view the objective of PvMP differently - in a strategic manner. Play to win, don't play to farm. To some people it's boring. To other people it's exhilarating. Once you gain an appreciation for other peoples playstyles, and their objectives for playing that playstyle, you'll have a better understanding as to why certain players do the things they do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gladgilrian View Post
    I understand what you're saying and I agree, but what if it had never been part of the game? and even more importantly than rating, no record of deaths or KB's? No wartabs at all.

    I can only compare 2 games in my limited PvP experience, Rift and LOTRO. Only thing you gain in Rift is favor, at the end of a war front you do see dmg done, dmg taken, KB's etc., but no wartab of any sort to stroke epeens with and I don't see the fear of dying in Rift. People are people and I doubt the PvPers in Rift are fundementally different from PvPers in LOTRO.
    From a personal standpoint, I take pride in killing without being killed -- in any PvP environment. Stats or no stats, it's the playstyle I enjoy, and I'm sure i'm not the only one. Stats are just a bonus, in LOTRO.
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  21. #21
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    @OP: The issue is perspective. You have none. It sounds like you've never had a high rating, or played at a high skill level. Most (not all) people that have high ratings, ultimately don't care what their rating is -- they simply do not want to let their opponent kill them, for reasons that may/may not include personal grudges, a sense of accomplishment, ratings, to deny their opponent a satisfaction, game mechanics (creeps become more powerful when they get infamy), strategy, etc. All of these come into play in some form or fashion, but a player like you doesn't seem to understand this. You try to simplify the issue, and inaccurately believe that the lack of action in the 'moors revolves solely around rating.

    Ultimately, renown means absolutely nothing for Freeps, so they truly have no reason to 'push' into Creeps unless they become bored or careless. Creeps, however, control their own progression. They gain infamy, they gain rank, they gain skills/strength. They have every incentive to be the 'pushers' of the 'moors. If you're expecting Freeps to start the action, you're looking at the game mechanics of PvMP wrong.

    My advice -- try some different perspective. Play the game as skillfully as you can, rather than as carelessly as you can. Ignore the 'farm' mentality that most people come to the 'moors with, and view the objective of PvMP differently - in a strategic manner. Play to win, don't play to farm. To some people it's boring. To other people it's exhilarating. Once you gain an appreciation for other peoples playstyles, and their objectives for playing that playstyle, you'll have a better understanding as to why certain players do the things they do.



    From a personal standpoint, I take pride in killing without being killed -- in any PvP environment. Stats or no stats, it's the playstyle I enjoy, and I'm sure i'm not the only one. Stats are just a bonus, in LOTRO.
    OK, I'm calling this thoughtful and well written. That said, I disagree with one thing and always have: unless they have numbers, creeps can't be expected to push. In most situations, freeps have to be the initiator due to the advantage in CC, stealth classes and most importantly, "oh shiz" skills.

  22. #22
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Failing that, leech it off of raids. I know literally 2 people on this server out of all the 5 stars there've been that haven't, since...oldboy in book 12, not sure if there were ones before him.
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  23. #23
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Quote Originally Posted by olagaton3434 View Post
    @OP: The issue is perspective. You have none. It sounds like you've never had a high rating, or played at a high skill level. Most (not all) people that have high ratings, ultimately don't care what their rating is -- they simply do not want to let their opponent kill them, for reasons that may/may not include personal grudges, a sense of accomplishment, ratings, to deny their opponent a satisfaction, game mechanics (creeps become more powerful when they get infamy), strategy, etc. All of these come into play in some form or fashion, but a player like you doesn't seem to understand this. You try to simplify the issue, and inaccurately believe that the lack of action in the 'moors revolves solely around rating.

    Ultimately, renown means absolutely nothing for Freeps, so they truly have no reason to 'push' into Creeps unless they become bored or careless. Creeps, however, control their own progression. They gain infamy, they gain rank, they gain skills/strength. They have every incentive to be the 'pushers' of the 'moors. If you're expecting Freeps to start the action, you're looking at the game mechanics of PvMP wrong.

    My advice -- try some different perspective. Play the game as skillfully as you can, rather than as carelessly as you can. Ignore the 'farm' mentality that most people come to the 'moors with, and view the objective of PvMP differently - in a strategic manner. Play to win, don't play to farm. To some people it's boring. To other people it's exhilarating. Once you gain an appreciation for other peoples playstyles, and their objectives for playing that playstyle, you'll have a better understanding as to why certain players do the things they do.

    oh wow, thats actually some good points, dude.
    *Sapience stuff deleted*

  24. #24
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    AW: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    Quote Originally Posted by Thularil View Post
    What do you think?
    you are right. problem is, it will not change. the devs wont do (they had 4 years to do so, and even when they took away those silly stars, rating and stars on e-peen-boards remained), and most of the peopl who play the bad game are too accustomed to it to adopt to a change.

  25. #25
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    Re: PvP - The Problem is Rating

    The problem isnt rating. Lack of confidence and skill is a problem. Lack of new players is a problem. No one wants to die to the same ###-hat over n over for nothing in return, and that has nothing to do with rating.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    Failing that, leech it off of raids. I know literally 2 people on this server out of all the 5 stars there've been that haven't, since...oldboy in book 12, not sure if there were ones before him.
    I can think of a few more than two... and surviving is an easier thing to do off in "nowhere nowhere land" farming greenies that happen to stroll by.

    Surviving around a raid of people who's only goal is to kill you and track you to no end is another thing entirely. Warg packs and VT spam are quite a bit tougher to deal with than a greenie coming back from the rez. Playing in the midst of focus fire thats searching for you is more difficult. 1v1 is predictable and easy. 1v24 is less so.

    Originally Posted by 22Acacia
    At this point, way too many people have way too many grudges and people they would never give an inch to. It's not going to change.
    Yup.
    Last edited by ellestone; Jun 23 2011 at 05:52 PM.
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