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  1. #1

    Wardens should have 6 morale/vit

    But only in blue line. Why? Because warden's have a mitigation cap of 50 %, whereas other tanking classes cap out at 60 %. This means that wardens take 25 % more damage than a guard, if you only look at mitigation. On a spike-damage hit that is a huge amount.

    The "avoidance tank" argument is not valid, as this is a measure to even out the vulnerability to spike damage. Even if you avoid 9 out of 10 spike hits, the last one can be enough to kill you in one hit. And that's enough.

  2. #2
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    Absolutely nothing wrong here, please implement this and let's see what happens to the most OP class in the game.
    Landroval
    Nazmoth: R14 Reaver, Rocketlauncher: R10 BA, Macroing: R10 Defiler
    Hejazia: R14 Warden

  3. #3
    Disagree, though giving them higher max avoidances would be interesting, though guardian was king of avoidances when we didnt even have paperboys in the game. giving them even more morale would even more break them in pvp.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Hejazia View Post
    Absolutely nothing wrong here, please implement this and let's see what happens to the most OP class in the game.
    The only problem would be vit-stacking of essences. With that in mind, perhaps this is not the best solution. Wardens don't really need +25 % morale. But I do feel a ~10 % increase in blue line would be appropriate.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Disagree, though giving them higher max avoidances would be interesting, though guardian was king of avoidances when we didnt even have paperboys in the game. giving them even more morale would even more break them in pvp.
    A warden that doesn't want to die 1v1 can go blue line and never die as it is. I don't see how some more morale would change that.

  6. #6
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    Or just, ya know, give wardens +10% more mits in Blue line? xD
    Did everyone get a bugged signature? My BB code doesn't work anymore
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  7. #7
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    I have a better solution. Delete wardens from game.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    Or just, ya know, give wardens +10% more mits in Blue line? xD
    I actually prefer that. But a suggestion like that doesn't stir the feelings as much.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    Wardens need more buffs.

  10. #10
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    You could just make the bottom half of the blue tree not abject garbage. There's a reason people tank specialized blue but invested in red.
    http://i.imgur.com/dCMvNZN.jpg
    "It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed,
    though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope."

  11. #11
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    What.

    Have you even heard of DC? With just 6 targets you can get to 90% mits. Even a boss gives +8% mits. Just use it at appropriate times.

  12. #12
    Warden is not the only tank class in medium armor.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Everyone View Post
    What.

    Have you even heard of DC? With just 6 targets you can get to 90% mits. Even a boss gives +8% mits. Just use it at appropriate times.
    Only 8% in boss fights
    Guard has way better stat bases its way easyer to cap mits avoidance etc on a guard then on warden.
    Also guards get a buff skill that gives them 130k morale with the hytbold set.
    Guards got a +50% block,parry,Evade skill which puts all avoidances at 70%+ Pretty much makes them immortal..

    Warden really needs more base mits having 10% less mits is why raiders prefer guards as tank making them the 1 and only tank class ingame since cappy's dont really have that good aggro skills..
    And maybe also some more force taunts lol we cant force taunt 1 mob away from a guard or cappy thats just silly

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason12323 View Post
    Also guards get a buff skill that gives them 130k morale with the hytbold set.
    Guards got a +50% block,parry,Evade skill which puts all avoidances at 70%+ Pretty much makes them immortal..
    Most of the (challenging) raids/instances have bosses that do tactical damage, your BPE percentage won't save you there. I don't know of any guards who use the Warrior's Heart set bonus while tanking. You're opting out of using essence gear in order to use a set bonus that requires 4 pieces equipped.
    Landroval
    Nazmoth: R14 Reaver, Rocketlauncher: R10 BA, Macroing: R10 Defiler
    Hejazia: R14 Warden

  15. #15
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    Wardens were originally made to fill in as an off tank. If you want to survive and tank like a big boy make a Guard and stop whining. Sheesh

  16. #16
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    Give hunters back old vitality stat version with mits instead

    I understand you wish for more morale since the current instanced content requires that us DPS classes make a set of all morale+mits snooze-inducing junk gear instead of...dealing DPS. I understand it but I don't feel there is a need for it. A good thing about highlithing the needs for one class is it gets you thinking - how about removing all PM from might for WRD already?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Macroscian View Post
    A good thing about highlithing the needs for one class is it gets you thinking - how about removing all PM from might for WRD already?
    I understand what you're saying, but let's not get off topic here.

    Quote Originally Posted by taishi View Post
    Wardens were originally made to fill in as an off tank. If you want to survive and tank like a big boy make a Guard and stop whining. Sheesh
    Excellent logic right there. Why bother discussing possible ways of fixing an issue with a class when you can rudely tell people to shut up?

  18. #18
    For all tanking classes: I would agree with OP but I think what tanks should only have 6 or even 7 points of morale(to make vit essences useful) per vit in tank builds and have only 3 points like non tanking classes do on dps traits: why that? because all tanking classes got now decent dps numbers (warden is even highest) so there's no point on having that extra morale for non tank traits.
    For wardens specifically: Also wardens should get a trait for +10% both mitigations in blue line (like the capstone or even the last trait bonus). I would say that warden should get DC mits removed (they're meh on single target huge hitting bosses, and too OP in aoe where we already are OP with morale taps and resolution) and the skill turned into a forced attack with 10-15s cd. And make a skill (capstone should be it) like DC used to be: 90% mits for 30s with two minutes(-ish) cooldown regardless of the amount of enemies we're fighting since those mits are particularly helpful for single target bosses, not when adds are around.
    What do you think? I think that pretty much would balance a lot of stuff with both dps and tanking specs.

  19. #19
    Guardians have superior mitigations and critical defence, wardens have better self heals. What about any % bonus to avoidance and resistance to help wardens compete with guardians as main tank.
    New instances are doable with warden as tank, but you must have better equipment than guardian, to perform equaly well. With good equipment, we have problems only in one boss fight - Lumithil. You have to watch your debuffs, use smartly Shield Tactics for stun immunity and use deffiant challenge, when you get +50% incomming damage debuff. High morale, good incomming healing, resistance, good healer and fast dps, this is what you need for this fight.

  20. #20
    As a Warden who often Tanks too i Disagree. We dont need 6 Morale/Vit. Since Trait Trees there are two Kind of Tanks. Warden and Champs where shiftet to Offtanks or Dps tanks. So there are Occasions where Guards/Cappys are better and then again we are in advantage. So all is good here. Only complain i have is that our Ratings (from Gambits and Trees) should be changed to %. So we get Real benefits from them.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by taishi View Post
    Wardens were originally made to fill in as an off tank. If you want to survive and tank like a big boy make a Guard and stop whining. Sheesh
    The project name was Solitar. Someone that makes it of their own.
    Wardens port all they need :-)

    In True the Warden formerly suck the Aggro out of the group, even from the classical Guard.

    Me think the main Reason to take Guardian or Captains to perform as Tank is the rift between the majority of the Wardens.
    There were many treads about it.

    Back to the topic, even if you get 6 points of moral for Vita, it will not solve the problem that vita is nearly useless.
    See seldom people that take vita, and even me, the old vita instead of moral fanboy do not use it anymore.
    In former times me get migrations from vita. now i get (nearly) only moral. so a Moral essence will increase it still more as a vita x6 essence.
    Last edited by Laubgaenger; May 25 2015 at 06:02 AM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by CM-Amenophis View Post
    Only complain i have is that our Ratings (from Gambits and Trees) should be changed to %. So we get Real benefits from them.
    This. X1000.

    Turbine. PLEASE.

  23. #23
    I really love how everytime someone on this forum asks for a buff while having pve in their mind some PvMPs jump in to derail the thread asap.

    First of all there was never an official statement that the warden was supposed to be an offtank only, the class was introduced, advertised and designed to be a fully capable tank.
    What was stated officially though is that classbalancing in lotro would not be based around PvMP.

    Now I don't agree with OPs suggestion because it doesn't solve the problems the warden currently has as a tank in pve which is the fact that our tankiness relies too much on DC (and to a lesser degree Moraleleeches). Take Ruined City T2CM for example the first boss is paradise for a warden: enough adds to fuel DC for 90% mits half of the fight and 8? targets to leech from and as a cherry on top the incoming damage is as steady as it gets. The endboss however is quite the opposite: There's not enough targets for DC to cap, leeches are only semiefficient and on top of that the damage is spiky as ####. Add to that the fact that your healer may end up debuffed or stunned and you have your typical wardens worst nightmare.

    Now if this was a raid you could say great lets take a warden who thrives in fights like that for the first boss and a guard for the second and we are golden. But this is not a raid and both ( or better all) tankclasses should be capable of handling all the fights in an instance equally well. A little disparity is obviously unavoidable but in the Wardens case the difference between fights that heavily favor them and those that heavily disfavor them is extremely severe. This gap in performance between fights is caused by our overreliance on having a lot of enemies around aswell as our inability to cope with spiky damageintake.

    I obviously don't have a perfect solution for this but I think Turbine should ditch the approach on Wardens being "avoidance-tanks" because that basically translates to "unreliable-tank", rather they should explore giving Wardens options to make damageintake smoother: They could implement a mechanic similiar to the stagger of WoWs monks that makes them take a portion of the damage as a DoT rather than directly, or add a shieldcomponent to selfheals or add a mechanic that goes like this: "If a single hit exceeds XX% of max morale the damage gets further reduced by X". Those are just coming from the top of my head I'm sure there are more elegant (and maybe more wardenlike?) solutions. Obviously those kind of buffs would require DC nerfing but lets face it the skill is as unwardenlike as it can get anyways.

    On a side rant: Why the #### do Guards get +20% Crit Defense on their 3 piece BB-Set when Wardens are the ones who could use it the most!!!!!!1111 >.<


    Love,

    Sheilyn

    P.S One more rant: Who the hell decided it would be a good idea to have a boss in an instance reflect firedamage??!!111 Loremaster plays like he had his brain turned to vegetables for the boss and 1/3 of the RK is flatout not usable LOL
    Last edited by Sheilyn; May 26 2015 at 04:16 AM.

  24. #24
    Easy solutions which also balance some OP aspects of DPS wardens:

    Replace Bane of Shadow trait in blue line by one exactly like the hunter yellow survival gear (Self Protection?), allowing increased mitigations (+1, 2, 3, 5 and 8%). This would also make Fi-Sh spammed light DOTs a little less broken.
    Double the critical defence bonuses from Critical Protection.

    AND FIX THE MEDIUM ARMOUR MIT CURVE.

    Another thing to fix wardens - allow Resounding Challenge and Conviction to act as proper aggro leeches again.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheilyn View Post
    I really love how everytime someone on this forum asks for a buff while having pve in their mind some PvMPs jump in to derail the thread asap.

    First of all there was never an official statement that the warden was supposed to be an offtank only, the class was introduced, advertised and designed to be a fully capable tank.
    What was stated officially though is that classbalancing in lotro would not be based around PvMP.

    Now I don't agree with OPs suggestion because it doesn't solve the problems the warden currently has as a tank in pve which is the fact that our tankiness relies too much on DC (and to a lesser degree Moraleleeches). Take Ruined City T2CM for example the first boss is paradise for a warden: enough adds to fuel DC for 90% mits half of the fight and 8? targets to leech from and as a cherry on top the incoming damage is as steady as it gets. The endboss however is quite the opposite: There's not enough targets for DC to cap, leeches are only semiefficient and on top of that the damage is spiky as ####. Add to that the fact that your healer may end up debuffed or stunned and you have your typical wardens worst nightmare.

    Now if this was a raid you could say great lets take a warden who thrives in fights like that for the first boss and a guard for the second and we are golden. But this is not a raid and both ( or better all) tankclasses should be capable of handling all the fights in an instance equally well. A little disparity is obviously unavoidable but in the Wardens case the difference between fights that heavily favor them and those that heavily disfavor them is extremely severe. This gap in performance between fights is caused by our overreliance on having a lot of enemies around aswell as our inability to cope with spiky damageintake.

    I obviously don't have a perfect solution for this but I think Turbine should ditch the approach on Wardens being "avoidance-tanks" because that basically translates to "unreliable-tank", rather they should explore giving Wardens options to make damageintake smoother: They could implement a mechanic similiar to the stagger of WoWs monks that makes them take a portion of the damage as a DoT rather than directly, or add a shieldcomponent to selfheals or add a mechanic that goes like this: "If a single hit exceeds XX% of max morale the damage gets further reduced by X". Those are just coming from the top of my head I'm sure there are more elegant (and maybe more wardenlike?) solutions. Obviously those kind of buffs would require DC nerfing but lets face it the skill is as unwardenlike as it can get anyways.

    On a side rant: Why the #### do Guards get +20% Crit Defense on their 3 piece BB-Set when Wardens are the ones who could use it the most!!!!!!1111 >.<


    Love,

    Sheilyn

    P.S One more rant: Who the hell decided it would be a good idea to have a boss in an instance reflect firedamage??!!111 Loremaster plays like he had his brain turned to vegetables for the boss and 1/3 of the RK is flatout not usable LOL
    Thank you for what I think is a good summary of the issues and a helpful post. As you say, Wardens have always been promoted as a full tank, despite developers not always remembering that and despite the "prejudice" of some players. It is frustrating to be told that the solution to the challenges of the new instances is to take a Guardian! The only other solution seems to be to stack morale essences; I am now working on that by creating an alternative armour set - which is, of course, quite usual anyway. But, as someone posted elsewhere, this "requirement" to stack morale to cope with spike damage does not seem a good direction of travel longer-term, and I am not sure constitutes good instance design.

 

 
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