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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    3,813

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by Magi View Post
    the tide of the ever-zerging, easy-mode freeps.
    Huh? Freeps haven't been easy-mode on E for a long time.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    473

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by Patience View Post
    I'm sorry that communications were so borked.
    <snip>
    I'm also sorry about your group being split. We'll try to get this all finished so you can roll the 'moors again sooner rather than later!
    IMO, you should give the option to those who transfered to transfer back for free and be reimbursed for the cost of the original transfer, given your admission that it was a mix-up on Turbine's end.
    Last edited by crazyaddict; Jul 05 2008 at 12:50 AM.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    473

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by Frelorn View Post
    This is a very real concern of ours. We were just discussing this matter the other day. As of right now things are still in the discussion stage, but it is something that is on our collective radars.
    This concern of potential imbalance makes no sense since a group of pvmp freeps can already transfer to another server and cause "imbalance" there. So if this were a real concern, then only freeps with 0 reknown should be allowed to transfer, and once transfered should be denied access to the moors.
    Last edited by crazyaddict; Jul 05 2008 at 01:07 AM.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    My dog is walking me or I'm stress testing my favorite chair :)
    Posts
    858

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by sharky1511 View Post
    This is crazy. If you are talking about a half to full raid sized force of ANYBODY moving servers it will disrupt the balance. If you aruge that because it is high ranked creeps they have better survivability etc and freeps don't gain anything by ranking, then consider this. If 18 players (freeps) that are ranks 8,9,10 go anywhere, you can see by their ranks that they have extensive experience with raiding in the 'Moors. A force like that would absolutely tip the scales.
    In addition there are more concerns in regards to PvE impact that the creeps have no impact what so ever.

    For example how many threads do you find in these forums concerning a server's economy?

    How many of those threads mention the creep economy?

    If you take the average R9 creep and the average R9 freep and lets say an influx of 30x that amount moving to a server. I guarantee you creepside no one would care (not even the creeps) about the influx of possible salable items or the supply gold (i.e., inflation). Why, because there is no economy to speak of.

    Heck we don't even have mail creep side!!!!!


    20 g is the highest amount I have ever heard a creep having in coin. Freep side I have seen SS of over 380 and have heard of 1000+.

    But hey, we need to worry about the impact of creep transfers!!!!

    Whatever....
    Last edited by DejaBoo; Jul 05 2008 at 01:36 AM.
    [CENTER][I][FONT=Palatino Linotype][COLOR=White][SIZE=1]The Road goes ever on and on
    Down from the door where it began.
    Now far ahead the Road has gone,
    And I must follow, if I can...[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]
    [/I] [/CENTER]

  5. #30
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    818

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    I'm not sure where this "huge influx of creeps" will be coming from once this gets approved.

    The only problems I'm hearing about are coming from freeps that are scared of a fair fight, and "alfa male" creeps scared of healthy competition.

  6. #31

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Simple .... Pre-'you all', we averaged 55-65 creeps a night. Something that the 1.5-2 raids of freeps could deal with. Then comes massive xfers from 4 different servers (Nimrodel, Vilya, Arkenstone, Silverlode I believe) and we hit a sickening 93 creeps on when I checked.

    I'm sorry.. but our freep population CANNOT withstand that many creeps. Were we welcoming? Sure, we can deal with people coming in ones.. twos.. fives... but then with everything going on (and all xfers combined), we were going to have the potential of gaining FOURTY+ hardcore creep players.

    That would throw the PvMP of Elendilmir into the ****can. We were already slightly on the creep-winning side of the balance coin before the xfers. Letting the xfers go through would mean that it would be so completely one sided that it's ridiculous. It would be Bk12 on E again.. reversed. I don't even wish that on my worst enemy.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Maine, the middle of nowhere
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    1,842

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    How about taking away the 6 months no ban rule? We can call it even.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,564

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Looks like Turbine is setting up a system that will encourage a ruination of good PvMP communities by letting troublemakers go from place to place because they've heard "good things" about a community.

    Bad. Very bad.

    Better to let people stay on their characters on the server where they're created and have them make that server's PvMP better rather than having everyone concentrate on one or two servers, causing server lag and general unplayability in the 'moors. I'd hate to see some servers have PvMP ghost-towns and others be too populated to play it well.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    QLD, Australia
    Posts
    967

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    I would like to point out that Freep transfers generally do not have as big of an impact as Creep transfers, as Freeps are not limited to the Moors map. While *some* Freeps might play in the Moors 100% of their game time, many do normal PvE stuff as well. Transferred Creeps however LIVE in the Moors. If they are online, they are in the Moors. Therefore a Creep transfer is generally going to have a larger impact on the Moors population than a Freep transfer. You would hear the same concerns being discussed if a sizable kinship of dedicated PvMP Freeps decided to transfer to another server (unless that server was already severely lacking in Freeps).

    On Elendilmir we have a reasonably good balance of Freeps/Creeps for the most part. Sure it shifts and changes with each book, but usually both sides can get some decent battles on a fairly regular basis. I have no issues with people transferring over, my only concern is that if the balance tips too far to one side or the other, then the fantastic PvMP environment we currently enjoy is going to disappear.
    Last edited by Lilliandra; Jul 05 2008 at 02:21 AM.

  10. #35

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    And the imbalance going to get worse when book 14 hits, with new lands to explore, new instances and more incentive to go back to old instances, freeps will be kept occupied and have less incentive to come to moors when the odds are 3-4 creep to 1 freep. I got a feeling creeps on those servers with mass influx will be staring at the GV 1 shotters for some time as time goes by.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Quebec, sti
    Posts
    170

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by DejaBoo View Post
    Heck we don't even have mail creep side!!!!!
    Creeps dont have gear, mail, mounts, auction houses, housing or a vault storage, why would they have access to such thing that is a transfer?

    Thinking about it, the people playing creeps only (or 95% of the time) should play for free considering the few services they have access to. They are stuck in that small area, wich noone cares about apparently, but when it comes to a handful of people who just try to find a new nice place to play and have fun, OOPS! It matters and every one go get their torches and forks and go out for a hunt! DOWN WITH TEM STRANGERZ!

    I wont waste my time quoting people... Some said creep transfer would unbalance servers.... Some others claimed creep transers were only allowed through _certain_ GM's or what not... So little they know, but good for them if they think they were right.

    But one thing i know for sure, my subscription ends in 10 days. Only one less may you say! One, plus one other... plus one other... I guess my money is not good enough for Turbine heh.
    Last edited by Yarjc; Jul 05 2008 at 02:32 AM.
    *Random stuff*

  12. #37

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by aklouie View Post
    Simple .... Pre-'you all', we averaged 55-65 creeps a night. Something that the 1.5-2 raids of freeps could deal with. Then comes massive xfers from 4 different servers (Nimrodel, Vilya, Arkenstone, Silverlode I believe) and we hit a sickening 93 creeps on when I checked.

    I'm sorry.. but our freep population CANNOT withstand that many creeps.

    Ok let's look at that. When you try to transfer it tells you it will go through as long as that server is accepting transfers. How hard would it be to list available servers which were ok to transfer to? Somebody must be keeping tabs on the pvp in this game and would know which servers are balanced, creep heavy, or freep heavy. If the map is dominantly blue, allow creep transfers to that server and if red allow freep transfers. (or something to that effect) I don't think the solution is this difficult. What is difficult is the bias towards a certain group of players. I'm not talking about game mechanics and being op'd. It's little things such as.....a creep can't even change his toon's name. If he/she is being griefed and wanted a "fresh start", it's not allowed because they play MP. It's $10 to change a name or $25 to transfer servers.....one sided of course

    Fleshrender
    Lendilrandir
    Last edited by sharky1511; Jul 05 2008 at 02:42 AM.

  13. #38

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    So don't allow the transfers. Keep the PvMP as broken as it is right now and lets all just PvE like the game was ment to be. PvMP was a big after thought that someone should have said "No it's to late" and then the game would be great. As it stands we all play in a broken down hole in the croner of the world. Combine all the PvMP into one and instance it for the love of god that way there would always be someone to play. I mean you can't walt to the mores as it stands now anyway. who would even notice? other than you would have a balanced population on both sides(except for the last district) It would reduce server load and make the game more fun for all!
    [b]Melnordan[/b]-Warden,[b]Melainel[/b]-Hunter,[b]Mellarain[/b]-Loremaster,[b]Zoltrix[/b]-Guardian,[b]Xabbu[/b]-Minstrel,[b]Melraindor[/b]-Runekeeper
    Pie anyone?

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,564

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by jbarr123 View Post
    So don't allow the transfers. Keep the PvMP as broken as it is right now and lets all just PvE like the game was ment to be. PvMP was a big after thought that someone should have said "No it's to late" and then the game would be great. As it stands we all play in a broken down hole in the croner of the world. Combine all the PvMP into one and instance it for the love of god that way there would always be someone to play. I mean you can't walt to the mores as it stands now anyway. who would even notice? other than you would have a balanced population on both sides(except for the last district) It would reduce server load and make the game more fun for all!
    And destroy any semblance of a community that grows together, knows each other and enjoys long-term rivalries. Instanced PVP is garbage, if you want garbage PVP, go play WoW's instanced garbage PVP.

    Which is more important than having balanced numbers.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    2,865

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Sorry Patience but that OP has spin written all over it. Not your fault I know, and not trying to shoot the messenger, but I don't believe it.

    I'm on the side of creep transfers being a overall bad idea. If someone wants to move servers fine...they have the option to re-roll anywhere they like. If you allow ranked creeps to move then whole tribes WILL move. And as has been said, creeps live in one place and one place only; the Moors. A creep transfer causes more balance issues than a freep one.

  16. #41
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    My dog is walking me or I'm stress testing my favorite chair :)
    Posts
    858

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by XavierVE1 View Post
    Looks like Turbine is setting up a system that will encourage a ruination of good PvMP communities by letting troublemakers go from place to place because they've heard "good things" about a community.

    Bad. Very bad.

    Better to let people stay on their characters on the server where they're created and have them make that server's PvMP better rather than having everyone concentrate on one or two servers, causing server lag and general unplayability in the 'moors. I'd hate to see some servers have PvMP ghost-towns and others be too populated to play it well.
    I would like to correct a possible assumption being made in this post. That the tribe that is talked about in this thread is a bunch of misfits trying to ruin another server -- absolutely not. IMHO it is a tribe of good people who have FINALLY given up on our server to grow up. it is the oldest and largest tribe on vilya for a reason -- good people.

    Vilya is one of the least populated servers for reason, imho -- poor culture. So poor we even had an incident of a kin abusing the new clothing system with white hoodies that stood in the formation of a Swastika in the middle of Bree O.o So maybe the pattern of fault doesn't lie with us, maybe its way bigger than us and we were left with little to no choice but try to find a new home and we picked E! To bad it didn't work cause I bet you there would been some ton of fun to be had with some new blood But now we will never know

    Peace,

    Boo

    PS. and btw the logic can be used for freeps as well. so the moving of bad blood chance is all the same creep or freep side... but anyway....
    Last edited by DejaBoo; Jul 05 2008 at 06:03 AM.
    [CENTER][I][FONT=Palatino Linotype][COLOR=White][SIZE=1]The Road goes ever on and on
    Down from the door where it began.
    Now far ahead the Road has gone,
    And I must follow, if I can...[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]
    [/I] [/CENTER]

  17. #42

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by RhinoRage View Post
    First of all click on that Arkenstone thread and start reading who caused the drama first. Yeah that is right YOU guys are causing drama because you feel threatened by our presence because you feel it will tip the balance. When we were on Arkenstone for 1 hour we did not cause any problems whatsoever and you guys asked us to leave we did. So tell me why is it you keep coming here saying we are the ones to blame and cause problems on your server when we respected your wish and moved on to a different server explain that to me?

    You don't even know what happened on Elendilmir again you are generalizing everything and pointing fingers. First of all there were other people from different servers and tribes who went onto that server and started causing problems. It was a coincidence that we arrived at around the same time, so they saw new people and assumed our tribe was the people causing problems in OOC and their vent because of all the new names. There was no special treatment given to us. In that Elendilmir highlight you posted they were talking about Vapor who wasn't even in our tribe. Also read the post above where Turbine hung up on us and ignored our letters of complaint. We were never given special treatment if you think that is special treatment I don't know what to say. You guys saw green creeps on your server and saw that we knew our stuff and were good at it and that is the problem in your eyes it nothing to do with griefing . We were there for 1 hour and you make it seem we caused so much trouble.

    As for Vilya that is a completely different story, let’s just say when you are always wining people take things personally and go way past the game to cause problems for us which it seems you yourself enjoy doing. This thread is about monster player transfer and not about our tribe. No one bashed you guys on your server click on those posts you quoted and read them first before you spew falsehoods.
    I'd just like to say I think your tribe name is very witty.. and perhaps you should consider moving to Brandywine.. it's the real PVP server anyways *ducks from the drama darts about to fly*
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000019c913/01008/signature.png]Marrak[/charsig]

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    682

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Are the balancing issues going to be taken into consideration before transers are allowed? For example one server is totally dominated by creeps so more high ranked creeps want to go there, will they be denied or will that server just become a creep only server? This is actually already happening on a few servers where creeps leave their home server to come to another server to creep causing one side to be over populated with no chance of one side putting up a decent fight.

    I'm sure there are other servers that are the opposite way but also if you allow creeps to transfer servers then a server that is hard to creep on will remain so, as high ranks transfer out. Leaving you with freep only servers.

    Just curious.

    Bleh, its already happening, who cares.
    Last edited by seabass2003; Jul 05 2008 at 06:21 AM.

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    New Brunswick, Canada
    Posts
    425

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by sharky1511 View Post
    Ok let's look at that. When you try to transfer it tells you it will go through as long as that server is accepting transfers. How hard would it be to list available servers which were ok to transfer to? Somebody must be keeping tabs on the pvp in this game and would know which servers are balanced, creep heavy, or freep heavy. If the map is dominantly blue, allow creep transfers to that server and if red allow freep transfers. (or something to that effect) I don't think the solution is this difficult. What is difficult is the bias towards a certain group of players. I'm not talking about game mechanics and being op'd. It's little things such as.....a creep can't even change his toon's name. If he/she is being griefed and wanted a "fresh start", it's not allowed because they play MP. It's $10 to change a name or $25 to transfer servers.....one sided of course

    Fleshrender
    Lendilrandir
    I think players should be able to transfer their creeps but there should be restrictions. If the server is creep dominated then there should be severe restrictions on the number that can be transferred. If it is freep dominated then restrictions should be lifted. If it is fairly evenly matched then less severe restrictions.

    A whole tribe transferring from one server to another could have a major impact on both. A single player transferring would have little impact.

    Ranlock BA8

  20. #45

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by jbarr123 View Post
    So don't allow the transfers. Keep the PvMP as broken as it is right now and lets all just PvE like the game was ment to be. PvMP was a big after thought that someone should have said "No it's to late" and then the game would be great. As it stands we all play in a broken down hole in the croner of the world. Combine all the PvMP into one and instance it for the love of god that way there would always be someone to play. I mean you can't walt to the mores as it stands now anyway. who would even notice? other than you would have a balanced population on both sides(except for the last district) It would reduce server load and make the game more fun for all!

    You are obviously not going to win the promotion to Chief Financial Officer since an attitude like that will lower your earnings potential by a good 20% or so. PvMP is a big industry and there are more player data than you have access to to prove that. PvMP is not an "afterthought" it is an undeniable sector of gaming that MUST be incorporated or stand to segregate a vast playerbase from the subscription pool.

    My opinion on the matter is this: whether or not is was allowed or impossible - there should have been a clear, well thought out approach on how to deal with these issues before they arose so there could have been an enforceable, predictable procedure on how to deal with any creep transfers, accidental or otherwise.

    It would be seen as fair in all ways to allow creep transfers the same as their freep counterparts. I also think that, as in the Vilya case, there should also be a "harassment clause" to allow more mature players to migrate to a more accomodating community at NO charge.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,444

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by seabass2003 View Post
    Are the balancing issues going to be taken into consideration before transers are allowed? For example one server is totally dominated by creeps so more high ranked creeps want to go there, will they be denied or will that server just become a creep only server? This is actually already happening on a few servers where creeps leave their home server to come to another server to creep causing one side to be over populated with no chance of one side putting up a decent fight.

    I'm sure there are other servers that are the opposite way but also if you allow creeps to transfer servers then a server that is hard to creep on will remain so, as high ranks transfer out. Leaving you with freep only servers.

    Just curious.

    Bleh, its already happening, who cares.
    And why would they? they don't do that when Freep wants to move. What if freep wants to move, you go check what rank they are? Or their play time in moors?

    I think turbine screwed this whole freep/creep thing when they didn't force a person to MOVE all chars (freep/creep) on Server A to Server B. And/Or option to put Freep/Creep on a new account/server (paying extra of course for new game)

    Should be move it all or nothing, either on same account or a new one.

  22. #47
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Paradise
    Posts
    955

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilliandra View Post
    I would like to point out that Freep transfers generally do not have as big of an impact as Creep transfers, as Freeps are not limited to the Moors map. While *some* Freeps might play in the Moors 100% of their game time, many do normal PvE stuff as well. Transferred Creeps however LIVE in the Moors. If they are online, they are in the Moors. Therefore a Creep transfer is generally going to have a larger impact on the Moors population than a Freep transfer. You would hear the same concerns being discussed if a sizable kinship of dedicated PvMP Freeps decided to transfer to another server (unless that server was already severely lacking in Freeps).

    On Elendilmir we have a reasonably good balance of Freeps/Creeps for the most part. Sure it shifts and changes with each book, but usually both sides can get some decent battles on a fairly regular basis. I have no issues with people transferring over, my only concern is that if the balance tips too far to one side or the other, then the fantastic PvMP environment we currently enjoy is going to disappear.
    Good post and well put. I don't see how you can compare a Freep transfer to a creep transfer. Most Freep's transfer to play PvE with other Friends or for different time zone. Yes they MAY play in the Moors but its not there only playing experience. Creeps can ONLY play in the Moors. To allow a transfer of 20 experienced creeps that also play together would most certainly cause any balance of play on that server to change greatly. On my server if that happened the Freeps would simply stop going to the Moors and it would dry up. Who would it affect most? - the existing creeps on that server who put so much time and work into playing on that server.

  23. #48
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    818

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by Barliman View Post
    Good post and well put. I don't see how you can compare a Freep transfer to a creep transfer. Most Freep's transfer to play PvE with other Friends or for different time zone. Yes they MAY play in the Moors but its not there only playing experience. Creeps can ONLY play in the Moors. To allow a transfer of 20 experienced creeps that also play together would most certainly cause any balance of play on that server to change greatly. On my server if that happened the Freeps would simply stop going to the Moors and it would dry up. Who would it affect most? - the existing creeps on that server who put so much time and work into playing on that server.
    there were 5 of us who planned on transferring, not 20, not a whole tribe. I am sure ppl would be transferring out of the server as well as into it.

    You can compare freep and creep transfers. If a freep transfers more than likely it will be with other friends/kin members (we had a pvp kin transfer to Nimrodel). So far I've only heared of single or small grp creep transfers, wouldnt call that a dooms day scenario. Grow up, accept change.

  24. #49

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    I personally had no problems with the creeps that transferred over to Elendilmir. I actually enjoyed getting their perspectives of our moors compared to thiers. Comparing notes was fun and informative. I am sorry that some of these transfers got stuck and caused the others to leave. That said, I do have to agree with Vyxe, a full extra raid plus in our moors is a problem our freeps are not prepared to deal with. Especially vet creeps, this is not a put down at all to those who transfered over. I found they were knowledgable and dammn efficient.

    The idea was thrown out there before about having E creeps vs. Villya freeps, Villya creeps against Ark freeps, ect. In other words rotate the moors groups. This way it stays fresh. You can keep the cores of both sides, but the drama is lessened because every month you encounter someone new. I don't know how hard this would be to pull off, but it may be time to consider it. The OP suggested keeping scores throughout the LOTRO community. Earn points for keep takes, Kills/death ratios, ect. That would appeal to those who want some more competition.

    I think, for the most part, Elendilmir creeps were very open and welcoming to the people who transfered, and that the transfers were respectful and genuinely wanted to fit in with as little friction as possible. Both side succeeded in this part, but the numbers were too high to adjust to this quickly.

    Rancor
    Last edited by Tinluen; Jul 05 2008 at 12:52 PM.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Chicago
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    1,287

    Re: Regarding Creep Transfers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinluen View Post
    I personally had no problems with the creeps that transferred over to Elendilmir. I actually enjoyed getting their perspectives of our moors compared to thiers. Comparing notes was fun and informative. I am sorry that some of these transfers got stuck and caused the others to leave. That said, I do have to agree with Vyxe, a full extra raid plus in our moors is a problem our freeps are not prepared to deal with. Especially vet creeps, this is not a put down at all to those who transfered over. I found they were knowledgable and dammn efficient.

    The idea was thrown out there before about having E creeps vs. Villya freeps, Villya creeps against Ark freeps, ect. In other words rotate the moors groups. This way it stays fresh. You can keep the cores of both sides, but the drama is lessened because every month you encounter someone new. I don't know how hard this would be to pull off, but it may be time to consider it. The OP suggested keeping scores throughout the LOTRO community. Earn points for keep takes, Kills/death ratios, ect. That would appeal to those who want some more competition.

    I think, for the most part, Elendilmir creeps were very open and welcoming to the people who transfered, and that the transfers were respectful and genuinely wanted to fit in with as little friction as possible. Both side succeeded in this part, but the numbers were too high to adjust to this quickly.

    Rancor
    I'll agree with a good portion of this post Rancor. I did go back to my freep right before the transfers happened because I felt the balance in the moors was already beginning to shift back in the creeps favor. With that said, the sudden influx of creeps really through the moors out of whack. We went from 50 creeps to 85-90 overnight which was an eye opener. Were we prepared? Hell no, but did we deal with it? Yes, with the help of Cincinnatus and Button we really gave you guys a push for your money if you ask me. The freeps, though outnumbered, were the agressers nearly the whole night as we pushed Lug over and over, yea we wiped but its not the point. We got kills, took the keep, then ultimately died. Everything just takes a bit of time in getting used to. Give it a month, and it'll be normal.

    In reguards to the idea of rotating servers for creeps, Idk I feel there are ways that freeps can get the numbers to fight fairly. One option is for us to organize Kinship alliances that take turns in the nights they go to the moors to assist. Getting 12-18 well oiled freeps out there do make an enormous difference.

    - Eomin
    [CENTER][COLOR=#008000]Eomin [B]75 [/B]Hunter[/COLOR]
    Leader of [URL="http://www.PreyingMantis.GuildLaunch.com"]Preying Mantis[/URL]
    [COLOR=#ff8c00][B][Jeweled Bell][/B][/COLOR] goes *Jingle Jangle*[/CENTER]

 

 
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