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  1. #76
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by SiSL View Post
    Berephon;

    One thing in my mind will be more clear with Book 13 tho; Names of places in Forochel map was a bit strange to other places we got used to (which often sindarin or common tongue is used), can we assume they are "local" tongue of Lassoths? Shall we have a little bit more information of their meanings?
    They are somewhat modified Finnish (which is the culture Tolkien based the Lossoth on.) The modifications are mostly making double vowels a single long vowel.

  2. #77

    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Thank you, now all we need will be to find a Finnish player and force him to tell us all

    Another note: Bëo-rn -that is in The Hobbit- also Finnish based I think and it means "Honey", infamous Beowulf means "Honey-wolf" taken into english as "Bear"
    Last edited by SiSL; Mar 28 2008 at 11:04 AM.

  3. #78
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by SiSL View Post
    Thank you, now all we need will be to find a Finnish player and force him to tell us all

    Another note: Bëo-rn -that is in The Hobbit- also Finnish based I think and it means "Honey", infamous Beowulf means "Honey-wolf" taken into english as "Bear"
    Actually, it's a straight up Old English name...his folk are descended from the North-men (Anglo-Saxons) that the Rohirrim are descended from.

    As for Finnish translations, there's no secret there: www.fincd.com (remember that long vowels--basically any vowel with a ^ over it) would actually be that vowel doubled. Also, if a word is hyphenated, it's probably a compound construct of our own.

  4. #79

    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    I made a thread about naming a while back, and included some links to resources I use.
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=105245

    Naming is important to me, but I make allowances for euphonious sounds, so my names likely aren't perfect. Still, most people don't care at all (I have an ignore list full of things like "Deathmidget"), so I appreciate anyone that puts some thought into making a decent name.

    Pets:
    Raven: Corudae "Cunning Shadow"
    Bear: Bronmellas "Enduring Strength"
    Lynx: Mithuial "Misty Twilight"
    Hare: Nibenestel "Small Hope"
    Turtle: Garthgol "Fortress Cloak"
    Sparrow: Annuilind "Song of the West" (Still thinking on a change here, it's a big stretch, but the proper form doesn't sound right to me at all.)
    Last edited by Thanatos; Mar 28 2008 at 11:59 AM.
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  5. #80

    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Thank you so much again (I wonder how more I will thank you for that)

    Great dictionary already...

    So Basic translations for Forochel:

    Talvi-Mûri: Winter Wall
    Länsi-Mâ: West lands
    Itä-Mâ : East Lands
    Ja-Kuru: Canyon well ?
    Ja-Rannit: - Rainpipes well?
    Last edited by SiSL; Mar 28 2008 at 11:47 AM.

  6. #81
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Serin36 View Post
    I wanted to give one of my alts (an Elf) a light-hearted name. I came up with 'The Laughing Wanderer' and tried to put that into Sindarin.
    I did something similar for one of my alts, an Elf Lore-master. Going with "Laughing Man/Male", I got Gladhmir. We all know I screwed up my main name by reversing the word order, so now I'm waiting for Berephon to tell me how badly I screwed up this one too.
    Arda Shrugged - Elendilstone / Landroval / Anor

  7. #82
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos View Post
    I made a thread about naming a while back, and included some links to resources I use.
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=105245

    Naming is important to me, but I make allowances for euphonious sounds, so my names likely aren't perfect. Still, most people don't care at all (I have an ignore list full of things like "Deathmidget"), so I appreciate anyone that puts some thought into making a decent name.

    Pets:
    Raven: Corudae "Cunning Shadow"
    Bear: Bronmellas "Enduring Strength"
    Lynx: Mithuial "Misty Twilight"
    Hare: Nibenestel "Small Hope"
    Turtle: Garthgol "Fortress Cloak"
    Sparrow: Annuilind "Song of the West" (Still thinking on a change here, it's a big stretch, but the proper form doesn't sound tight to me at all.)
    Any of these sound better for the Sparrow?

    Song of the West = Annúllin, Dúllin, Duvellin, Annúnglir, Dúnglir, Duvenglir, Annúllaer, Dúllaer, or Duvellaer.

    Also, Enduring Strength would be scary (Bronaduibellas). Long-endured Strength would be Brúmbellas (Brûn + Bellas). Strength of Endurance would also be scary (Bronwebellas).

  8. #83
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by SiSL View Post
    Thank you so much again (I wonder how more I will thank you for that)

    Great dictionary already...

    So Basic translations for Forochel:

    Talvi-Mûri: Winter Wall
    Länsi-Mâ: West lands
    Itä-Mâ : East Lands
    Ja-Kuru: Canyon well ?
    Ja-Rannit: - Rainpipes well?
    Jä-kuru: Ice-canyon
    Jä-rannit: Ice-shores

  9. #84
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by gildhur View Post
    I did something similar for one of my alts, an Elf Lore-master. Going with "Laughing Man/Male", I got Gladhmir. We all know I screwed up my main name by reversing the word order, so now I'm waiting for Berephon to tell me how badly I screwed up this one too.
    Ok.

    A bit off, but close roots (in these forms it would sort of be Man Laughs, but I'm lousy with verbs): Gladhadir or Gladhabenn or Gladhawe. When using a verb (Gladha-) in a name, you would normally use a mediate suffix, in this case masculine: Gladhadir or Gladhanir.

  10. #85
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Berephon View Post
    A bit off, but close roots (in these forms it would sort of be Man Laughs, but I'm lousy with verbs): Gladhadir or Gladhabenn or Gladhawe. When using a verb (Gladha-) in a name, you would normally use a mediate suffix, in this case masculine: Gladhadir or Gladhanir.
    /boggle
    The dictionary I used (Dragon Flame) listed "Gladh" rather than "Gladha", otherwise I probably would have come closer.
    Arda Shrugged - Elendilstone / Landroval / Anor

  11. #86
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by SiSL View Post
    Thank you so much again (I wonder how more I will thank you for that)

    Great dictionary already...

    So Basic translations for Forochel:

    Talvi-Mûri: Winter Wall
    Länsi-Mâ: West lands
    Itä-Mâ : East Lands
    Ja-Kuru: Canyon well ?
    Ja-Rannit: - Rainpipes well?

    Also remember the correct pronunciations- 'j' is pronounced as 'y' in Finnish (my mum is a full-blooded Finn- I'm going to show her that map and get her pronunciations of all the places ). I'm wondering if I'll find any NPCs named after me or other family members! Now that would be cool!

    RIP ELENDILMIR • Jingle Jangle
    Landroval
    : LAERLIN (Bio + Drawings) • LAERWEN • OLORIEL • AETHELIND (Bio + Drawing) • NETHAEL

  12. #87

    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Berephon View Post
    Any of these sound better for the Sparrow?

    Song of the West = Annúllin, Dúllin, Duvellin, Annúnglir, Dúnglir, Duvenglir, Annúllaer, Dúllaer, or Duvellaer.

    Also, Enduring Strength would be scary (Bronaduibellas). Long-endured Strength would be Brúmbellas (Brûn + Bellas). Strength of Endurance would also be scary (Bronwebellas).
    I like "Duvellin"... I'll have to think on the bear names, though. I figured "Bellas" would become "mellas", but screwing up the first word led to having the wrong ending letter, and thus a consonant shift that I didn't need. Still, I like the sound of the name. What would Bronmellas mean, if anything?

    Were the other ones correct? I thought Mithuial should be Hithuial, but I just didn't like it with an H - that was the example I was mostly thinking of when I mentioned my tendency for taking "euphonic license". Besides that, the quality of my sources and my understanding thereof, does vary.

    Another example would be my hunter, Finnarel. It's supposed to be made of Finn-Naur-El for Hair-(of)-Flame-Elf, as she's a redhead, or as close as you can get, anyway. I'm pretty sure I didn't construct it quite right.

    Thank you for the time and interest, by the way.
    Last edited by Thanatos; Mar 28 2008 at 12:30 PM.
    [RIGHT][COLOR=Orange][U]Literacy: It's not just for Lore-masters anymore![/U][/COLOR]

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  13. #88
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by gildhur View Post
    /boggle
    The dictionary I used (Dragon Flame) listed "Gladh" rather than "Gladha", otherwise I probably would have come closer.
    I'm guessing (guessing!) that the a- is added only when using it in a compound, and probably specifically when compounding it with another word that starts with a consonant. In my oh-so-limited experience, there are lots of little rules that get applied when mashing these words together.
    The smallest mimes of the gods of snow do not wish at all in their life that the great duty of the defences of the wine be diminished.

  14. #89
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    While we're on the subject, can we prohibit "-randir" from being used by players altogether? Every loremaster and their dog (and rabbit, frog, squirrel, et al) thinks they're a sindarin-speaking wanderer.

  15. #90
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    While we are talking about Tolkien's langage's I thought I would post a link to a site for the Elvish alphabet Tengwar
    This might help if you have the same trouble I do with trying to pronouces the letters and words.

    And here is Cirth the dwarven runes. Unfortunately the great Professor left us little tranlasions of Dwarven speak.

    Also are:
    Black Speech
    Sarati
    [color=blue][b][i]Drakkonus[/i][/b][/color] Elf LRM [color=orange][B]Leonnidus[/B][/color] Man CPT [color=red][B]Cappricornus[/B][/color] Dwarf RNK [color=jade][b]Taurrus[/b][/color] Hobbit WRD [color=aqua][B]Aquarrius[/B][/color] Dwarf CHM [color=silver]
    [B]Peggasus[/B][/color] Dwarf MNS [color=yellow][B]Scorppius[/B][/color] Hobbit BUR [color=fuchsia][B]Saggittarius[/B][/color] Elf HNT [color=purple][B]Centaurrus[/B][/color] Man GRD [color=brown][B]Ursaemajjorus[/B][/color] Beornling
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c00000008981d/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  16. #91
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos View Post
    I like "Duvellin"... I'll have to think on the bear names, though. I figured "Bellas" would become "mellas", but screwing up the first word led to having the wrong ending letter, and thus a consonant shift that I didn't need. Still, I like the sound of the name. What would Bronmellas mean, if anything?

    Were the other ones correct? I thought Mithuial should be Hithuial, but I just didn't like it with an H - that was the example I was mostly thinking of when I mentioned my tendency for taking "euphonic license". Besides that, the quality of my sources and my understanding thereof, does vary.

    Another example would be my hunter, Finnarel. It's supposed to be made of Finn-Naur-El for Hair-(of)-Flame-Elf, as she's a redhead, or as close as you can get, anyway. I'm pretty sure I didn't construct it quite right.

    Thank you for the time and interest, by the way.
    The others were correct. I didn't note the definition you had on Mithuial, but it's close. It would either be Pale Grey Twilight or Twilight of the Wet Mist (You are right--Hith would be just plain Mist.)

    Bronmellas wouldn't mean anything, unfortunately.
    Still, I like the sound of the name.
    That's the most important part.

    Fîn (single hair) + Naur + El would come out Norfinel. Find (full hair) + naur + el = Norfindel, similar to glaur + find + el = Glorfindel.

  17. #92

    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Drakkonus writes:

    And here is Cirth the dwarven runes. Unfortunately the great Professor left us little tranlasions of Dwarven speak.
    Actually, the Cirth were originally elven, invented in Beleriand by the Sindar before the return of the Noldor and adopted by the dwarves of the Ered Luin. They were especially suitable for carving writing into stone (or wood).
    Alasse: lore-master 100 on Landroval, plus alts of every other class

  18. #93

    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Berephon View Post
    The others were correct. I didn't note the definition you had on Mithuial, but it's close. It would either be Pale Grey Twilight or Twilight of the Wet Mist (You are right--Hith would be just plain Mist.)

    Bronmellas wouldn't mean anything, unfortunately.

    That's the most important part.

    Fîn (single hair) + Naur + El would come out Norfinel. Find (full hair) + naur + el = Norfindel, similar to glaur + find + el = Glorfindel.
    Hmm... I like the Grey Twilight definition well enough, and dislike the Hith version enough to just change the meaning rather than the name. "Mithuial" was just meant as a fancy way of calling the cat stealthy, anyway... I guess all of my pets are named like that.

    Brúmbellas will work for my bear, I think. It has the same "burly" sound to it as my screwed up version. I'm not sure if I can use the special character ú, though.

    As far as my hunter goes, "Norfindel" sounds too masculine to me, and the character is female. Another factor quite outside of Sindarin that I wanted to work in was to make the name as similar to "Fiona" as I could (not a reference to Shrek, I promise... versions of the character have existed for years before that movie).

    It's not as if I can change a character name as easily as a pet name, anyhow... and I like the sound of it the way it is.
    Maybe my tastes for euphonic sounds aren't quite the same as Tolkien's, but the spirit of loving linguistics is there, I think.

    Thanks for your advice!
    [RIGHT][COLOR=Orange][U]Literacy: It's not just for Lore-masters anymore![/U][/COLOR]

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  19. #94

    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Neat thread and I am glad there are other Linguists / Phonologist / Etymologists like me out there.... but...

    I am curious why someone didn't just provide the link for the site that has been tracking ME languages since the web came alive?

    http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/index.html

    Not that I am knocking. I definately enjoy the replies by the ingame linguist ;p

  20. #95
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    I've been keeping tabs on this thread and trying to resist the urge to display my own ignorance. But I can no longer stand it!

    My real name means something along the lines of a harbor for ships that carried marble. So, I was trying to figure out how to translate that into a Sindarin word. My patchwork resulted in "Cirlonde". Is this anywhere close? Thanks in advance!

    -Adri

    p.s. Berephon, it is awesome that you know so much about this language. I for one really appreciate you helping us out with that knowledge!!
    (¯`'.¸(¯`'.¸(¯`'.¸ Adrianna Silverleaf ¸.'´¯)¸.'´¯)¸.'´¯)
    ~*~Proud Officer of the Safe Havens of Arda ~*~
    (¯`'•.¸Leilanni*Cirlonde*F aile¸.•'´¯)

  21. #96

    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrianna_Silverleaf View Post
    I've been keeping tabs on this thread and trying to resist the urge to display my own ignorance. But I can no longer stand it!

    My real name means something along the lines of a harbor for ships that carried marble. So, I was trying to figure out how to translate that into a Sindarin word. My patchwork resulted in "Cirlonde". Is this anywhere close? Thanks in advance!

    -Adri

    p.s. Berephon, it is awesome that you know so much about this language. I for one really appreciate you helping us out with that knowledge!!
    "C
    ír" is ship, and while I can't find a word for harbor, "bar" is home, I think... a ship-home would work for harbor.
    I don't know of a word for marble exactly either, but "Gon" is one word for stone, and I guess it would have the connotation of being marble, or white stone of some sort, when you think of places in Gondor such as Minas Tirith.

    Gonc
    írbar? Doesn't sound right to me, but "Marble-Ship-Home" is the idea. Maybe "cír" would have a consonant shift.

    Incidentally, what real-world name means that?
    Last edited by Thanatos; Apr 02 2008 at 11:43 PM.
    [RIGHT][COLOR=Orange][U]Literacy: It's not just for Lore-masters anymore![/U][/COLOR]

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  22. #97
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos View Post
    Incidentally, what real-world name means that?
    Chelsey. Well, actually it is most often spelled Chelsea, but my mom liked the spelling with a 'y'. She was afraid people would pronounce it Chel-see-ah.

    The dictionary I used said that "lond" or "londe" for harbor/haven. And I didn't even mess with trying to get the marble part in there! That was just way too difficult, hehe.

    -Adri
    (¯`'.¸(¯`'.¸(¯`'.¸ Adrianna Silverleaf ¸.'´¯)¸.'´¯)¸.'´¯)
    ~*~Proud Officer of the Safe Havens of Arda ~*~
    (¯`'•.¸Leilanni*Cirlonde*F aile¸.•'´¯)

  23. #98

    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Can I apply these pronunciations to other words I find on the map?
    Like places in the Shire for example?

    I've heard many many people pronounce Michel Delving differently.

    This is a fantastic thread by the way!
    [LEFT][B][COLOR=royalblue][COLOR=#ffffff][COLOR=#4169e1]l[/COLOR]'[/COLOR]l[/COLOR][COLOR=white].[COLOR=#4169e1]l[/COLOR]'[COLOR=#4169e1]l[/COLOR][COLOR=white].[COLOR=#4169e1]l[COLOR=#ffffff]'[/COLOR]l[COLOR=white].[COLOR=#4169e1]l[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][B][COLOR=white][B][COLOR=royalblue][COLOR=red]===== [COLOR=black]:::[/COLOR]Brandywine
    [/COLOR][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=white][B][COLOR=white][B][COLOR=white][B][B][COLOR=white][B][COLOR=white][B][COLOR=royalblue][COLOR=white][COLOR=#4169e1]l[/COLOR]'[COLOR=#4169e1]l[/COLOR][COLOR=white].[COLOR=#4169e1]l[/COLOR]'[COLOR=#4169e1]l[/COLOR][COLOR=white].[COLOR=#4169e1]l[COLOR=#ffffff]'[/COLOR]l[COLOR=white].[COLOR=#4169e1]l[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]===== [COLOR=#000000]:::[/COLOR]
    [/COLOR][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/B][/B][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][COLOR=white][B][COLOR=white][B][B][COLOR=#ff0000][B][B][COLOR=white][B][COLOR=#ff0000][B][B]========== [COLOR=#000000]:::[/COLOR]
    [/B][/B][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/B][/B][/COLOR][/B][/B][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][B][COLOR=white][B][COLOR=white]========== [COLOR=#000000]:::[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/B][/LEFT]

  24. #99
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    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Joviex View Post
    Neat thread and I am glad there are other Linguists / Phonologist / Etymologists like me out there.... but...

    I am curious why someone didn't just provide the link for the site that has been tracking ME languages since the web came alive?

    http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/index.html

    Not that I am knocking. I definately enjoy the replies by the ingame linguist ;p
    thats bloody ****in insane. in the most positive way. holy ****. lol
    *Sapience stuff deleted*

  25. #100

    Re: Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrianna_Silverleaf View Post
    Chelsey. Well, actually it is most often spelled Chelsea, but my mom liked the spelling with a 'y'. She was afraid people would pronounce it Chel-see-ah.

    The dictionary I used said that "lond" or "londe" for harbor/haven. And I didn't even mess with trying to get the marble part in there! That was just way too difficult, hehe.

    -Adri
    Ah, well the reference I have just says it is a landing place or port, with no mention of marble anyway.
    http://www.20000-names.com/female_en...04.htm#CHELSEA

    And checking another Sindarin reference, I found:
    cair <small>S.</small> [kˈɑjr] (ceir <small>N.</small>) <small>n.</small> ship ◇ <small>Ety/365, LotR/A(iv), X/EI</small>
    ...
    cîr <small>S.</small> [kˈiːr] (cýr <small>S.</small>) <small>adj.</small> renewed ◇ <small>VT/48:7-8</small>
    <!-- @@@@@@@ cirban --> cirban <small>N.</small> → círbann
    <!-- @@@@@@@ círbann --> †círbann <small>*S.</small> [kˈiːrbɑnn] (cirban <small>N.</small>) <small>n.</small> haven ◇ <small>Ety/380, X/ND4</small> ◇ <small>cair+pand</small>
    <!-- @@@@@@@ cirdan --> cirdan <small>N.</small> → círdan
    <!-- @@@@@@@ círdan --> círdan <small>S.</small> [kˈirdɑn] (cirdan <small>N.</small>, ceirdan <small>N.</small>) <small>n.</small> shipbuilder, shipwright ◇ <small>Ety/365, Ety/390, LotR/VI:IX, RC/28</small> ◇ <small>cair+tân</small>
    *cirion <small>S.</small> [kˈiri.ɔn] <small>n.</small> <small>m.</small> shipman, sailor ← <small>Cirion (name)</small>
    <!-- @@@@@@@ cirith --> cirith <small>S.</small> [kˈiriθ] <small>n.</small> cleft, high climbing pass, narrow passage cut through earth or rock, ravine, defile ◇ <small>S/387, UT/426, TC/181, RC/334-335</small>

    ...
    lond <small>S., N.</small> [lˈɔnd] (lonn <small>S., N.</small>, lhonn <small>N.</small>) <small>n.</small> 1. narrow path or strait ○ 2. <small>by ext.,</small> entrance to harbour, land-locked haven ◇ <small>Ety/348, Ety/370, S/434, UT/450, VT/42:10, X/LH, X/ND1</small> ◈ lonnath <small>S.</small> <small>n.</small> <small>coll.</small>
    <!-- @@@@@@@ long --> ...
    <small></small>
    <!-- @@@@@@@ lonn --> lonn <small>S., N.</small> → lond
    <!-- @@@@@@@ lonnath --> lonnath <small>S.</small> [lˈɔnnɑθ] <small>n.</small> <small>coll.</small> <small>of</small> lond, havens ◇ <small>WR/294, WR/370</small>
    <small>http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sinda...ict-sd-en.html
    </small>

    Interesting how the words relate...
    [RIGHT][COLOR=Orange][U]Literacy: It's not just for Lore-masters anymore![/U][/COLOR]

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