On the logic of the cold kinship invite: Manners, salesmanship, and gender bias

@ bongart:

I see that what I have legitimately tried to explain in my previous post is not sinking in. You're welcome to continue judging others (and me) by your own personal measure.

When someone issues a complaint that their presence is not being publicly acknowledged in response to a deliberate and conspicuous public solicitation for attention, and proceeds to accuse others of this and that, it is revealing in itself.

I will quote myself from my earlier post, maybe the second time around it will be more successful in getting the point across:

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Originally Posted by Herwegur

IMO the best thing is simply not to let these differences be a source of bother or annoyance, but to take things easy and just roll with it...

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Originally Posted by bongart

I'm not sure about that though... since if you reword what you are saying, it doesn't come across as well. For example...



Now, I'm not talking about intent here... as in I'm not saying that someone is intentionally being rude by not replying. And yes, I understand that etiquette in game chat may have evolved to not necessarily apply to conversation out in the real world... doesn't that speak poorly about the community in the game in general, and the manners of those who are playing? I mean, if you were in a room with someone, in real life, and they spoke to you... would you ignore them? Would you consider it to be rude if you didn't speak to them? Flip it. If you spoke to someone in the same room as you, and they ignored you... wouldn't you feel they were being rude? What's the difference between that and a /tell in the game? And more importantly... WHY is there a difference, and why SHOULD there be a difference?

It shouldn't matter if it is in game or real life... there should be a minimum standard for politeness.

I find it extremely rude when I ride into Bree, or Thorin's Hall, or Michel Delving, and I greet the area in Regional, and I get crickets back in return... when I know there are players there getting my greeting in the chat channel. I'm not recruiting, I'm not asking a question, I'm not looking for anything... I'm a lvl 85 guilded metalsmith Champo maxed all the way who is just saying Hello. Yet the other players in the area getting my greeting can't find the time to give the chat equivalent of a nod or wave back.

When did abandoning basic social graces become acceptable?

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There are already minimum standards for politeness. In LOTRO they are called rules. In real life they are called laws.

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Originally Posted by bongart

Now, I'm not talking about intent here... as in I'm not saying that someone is intentionally being rude by not replying. And yes, I understand that etiquette in game chat may have evolved to not necessarily apply to conversation out in the real world... doesn't that speak poorly about the community in the game in general, and the manners of those who are playing? I mean, if you were in a room with someone, in real life, and they spoke to you... would you ignore them? Would you consider it to be rude if you didn't speak to them? Flip it. If you spoke to someone in the same room as you, and they ignored you... wouldn't you feel they were being rude? What's the difference between that and a /tell in the game? And more importantly... WHY is there a difference, and why SHOULD there be a difference?

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A /tell out of the blue is an interruption. It may interupt something one is doing (the middle of a fight is not the time or place to start chatting), it may be that the person on the receiving end is afk (without being marked as such) and doing, say, a crafting run (which will quickly scroll the /tell off the chat window), or even just lost in thought, or even--potentially--have the "no tells from other than friends and kin" flag set. Since the /tell sender has no way to know if one or more of these conditions apply (or any of several other possibilities), *expecting* a reply and getting all bent out of shape if there isn't one is the bigger issue than a lack of a reply.

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It shouldn't matter if it is in game or real life... there should be a minimum standard for politeness.

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There is. Don't pin someones ears back as a reply to a reasonably polite cold /tell.

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I find it extremely rude when I ride into Bree, or Thorin's Hall, or Michel Delving, and I greet the area in Regional, and I get crickets back in return... when I know there are players there getting my greeting in the chat channel. I'm not recruiting, I'm not asking a question, I'm not looking for anything... I'm a lvl 85 guilded metalsmith Champo maxed all the way who is just saying Hello. Yet the other players in the area getting my greeting can't find the time to give the chat equivalent of a nod or wave back.

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That's a case of walking into a room full of people you don't know, busy doing various things, and shoulting "HELLO!" at them and expecting back a chorus of greetings. Do that to me in real life, and if you're really lucky, what you'll get is a hostile glare. It's not "friendly" and it's not "polite". Being ignored is the *best* you should hope for.

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When did abandoning basic social graces become acceptable?

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Indeed. But are you sure you know what the basic social graces *are*?

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I find it extremely rude when I ride into Bree, or Thorin's Hall, or Michel Delving, and I greet the area in Regional, and I get crickets back in return... when I know there are players there getting my greeting in the chat channel.

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They could have /regional turned off.

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Originally Posted by whheydt

A /tell out of the blue is an interruption. It may interupt something one is doing (the middle of a fight is not the time or place to start chatting), it may be that the person on the receiving end is afk (without being marked as such) and doing, say, a crafting run (which will quickly scroll the /tell off the chat window), or even just lost in thought, or even--potentially--have the "no tells from other than friends and kin" flag set. Since the /tell sender has no way to know if one or more of these conditions apply (or any of several other possibilities), *expecting* a reply and getting all bent out of shape if there isn't one is the bigger issue than a lack of a reply.

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Any tell from anyone, be they a friend, a fellowship member, kinship member, or stranger is an interruption. Doesn't matter if it is from someone recruiting from a kinship or not. It has never been said that a reply must be immediate. Oh wait, old, worn out programmer... a tell doesn't interrupt any more than a notification that you just killed a mob, or picked up a specific piece of loot. It is just another line in the chat. I guess that whole argument about it being an interruption goes out the window. A Pop-up notification of a blind invitation into a kinship... that would be an interruption. A Tell just sits there quietly until you acknowledge it. That is all I am saying. That at some point, the tell should be acknowledged. You want to argue that it is some kind of massive interruption? You are a moron. I want to argue that there should be a little more politeness, and I'm getting attacked. Why am I surprised?

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Originally Posted by whheydt

That's a case of walking into a room full of people you don't know, busy doing various things, and shoulting "HELLO!" at them and expecting back a chorus of greetings. Do that to me in real life, and if you're really lucky, what you'll get is a hostile glare. It's not "friendly" and it's not "polite". Being ignored is the *best* you should hope for.

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Quote me where I said I wanted a chorus. Oh wait, you can't. So, you exaggerate and blow what I said out of proportion, just so you can shoot it down. All I expected was some measure of polite response... but you are correct. There is no reason why anyone in this game should be polite to strangers. Ever.

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Originally Posted by whheydt

Indeed. But are you sure you know what the basic social graces *are*?

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I used to. But you are correct. This game has no need of them.

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Originally Posted by masumane

I think this gender bias is all in your head, to be honest

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The comments made along this thread seem to indicate that males, females, and Dwarves-whose-gender-is-none-of-your-business
seem to get propositioned about the same amount.

But returning to the OP's original complaint, it is just possible that female *players* may respond less often to
random chat than male ones. In the real world, a woman may find it undesirable to respond to random chat
from random strangers, who may be trying to pick her up.

(Of course, if she *wants* to get picked up, that's a different matter. :) )

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Originally Posted by Cambruin

You're playing an MMO. It has other people playing it, which has pros and cons. Whenever receiving a 'cold invite' simply refuse and carry on. Why so easily annoyed or offended? Does the single invite turn into a spamfest; report.

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I can think of two factors that may be driving some of the comments in this thread that have not be otherwise addressed...

The first is that social norms and expectations are cultural variables. There is are no absolute rules here. Not only will the social expectations vary, but they will vary by country, region within country, and (probably most importantly here) by age. What is expected by one person may be completely unacceptable to another and there is no way to know that in advance.

The second is, I think, rather more subtle. An unannounced invite (be it for a kinship or a fellowship) is being referred to as a "cold invite". The comparison is to an old financial industry sales technique of "cold calling". That is, having people call a list of people not associated with the company trying to sell them financial services or products (stocks, bonds, etc.). This practice is now subject to regulation, up to and including the US "do not call" list, which gives an idea of just how unpopular it is with the general public.

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Originally Posted by Uvle

I can certainly understand that, and maybe it's a bit much to straight up consider it rude, but I do feel like this thread was in need of some perspective from the other side. I'm not some evil guy, or an idiot with bad social skills. I'm just a kin leader trying his best to provide his kin members with a great kinship, and recruiting is a hard thing to do sometimes, especially since any method other than the "cold invite" is almost 100% guaranteed to be met with silence, so it's disappointing when the more personal approach is met with the same, though I don't exactly expect a prompt reply, but I don't think it's too much to ask for a simple "no" so long as the other player isn't currently all that busy, even if I get a response 10 or even 20 minutes after the question it's still better than nothing at all from my POV.

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Although you sent a personal tell, the intended receiver may never have seen it. A number of my characters have the "Only present personal tells from kin members or friends" since you are NOT a friend, your personal goes quietly into the trash can. For my other characters the personal tell will get sent to the private message tab and I may not hear the ding because I have sound off or there is so much non game noise I can't hear.

As far as responding. I have been badgered with unwanted people at my door, unwanted people calling me at dinner or other times, bothering me while I am out and about trying to accomplish something and sending me junk snail and email. They will not let you break their script when they are talking away on a call to allow me to say "NO I am not interested Good Bye". I hang up on them or ignore them. Used to be only the occasional person wanting a hand out that was in my face - Often they get really angry when I do not what they want. Generally I ignore all these people - nobody that wants my time has any manners - When I was younger - it used to be - May have a few minutes of your time? wait patiently for a Go Ahead response.

At some point - politeness got reduced from - do you have some time to talk to me --> Join my kin versus blind invite.

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Originally Posted by bongart

That at some point, the tell should be acknowledged.

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So it is your position that, if you send me a tell, I am *obligated* to respond? Just how does that work?

Sorry...my time and effort are not at your disposal (however minimal). I will answer or not as I see fit. If I don't answer, I don't care a bit if you get steamed about it, so long as you do so without sending more tells.

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Originally Posted by bongart

You are a moron.

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Calling someone a moron while crusading for general courtesy and politeness isn't gonna do you any good I'm afraid.

Regardless, I do agree with what you say. Which is exactly why I'm not part of a kinship, why I skip servers every so often. Why I'm really not interested in meeting up with anything or anyone. It's mindboggling how often people ignore eachother, but it's appaling how tolerated and mainstream it has become. I could post dozens of examples to prove my point, but it'll simply lead to others posting dozens of examples to prove me wrong, adding to the frustration of both parties.

Best way to deal with it is to simply make up your mind and log in not expecting anything. I'll still dance to anyone making music, making sure to show my appreciation. I'll still toss an invite when someone is obviously grinding the same zone as me and whenever I do I'll still say "hello". I'm fairly certain I won't get a reply back but so be it, at least I tried.

But contrary to the topic poster I do not feel annoyed or offended whenever some player interaction does show up, whether it's for good or for worse. After all, when all is said and done, the only thing that matters is finding a balance for yourself, preventing any form of frustration. After all, this is my safe haven, my home away from home. I'll not let others dictate how I choose to experience it and I suggest neither should you.

The idea that someone's Ctrl+C / Ctrl+V recruiting ad demands a reply is silly IMO. As a player, I am in no way obligated engage others in conversation if I do not wish to, and an easy way to annoy me is to blindly presume I am interested in the tell-senders cause/kinship/etc.

My stock reply is that there's likely no way they can afford the signing bonus they'd be offering me for retention of my services, and that goes up if they want exclusive rights to my time and toons. If the person wishes to engage in some casual banter, I may oblige, but the end-answer is still a no. I consider it a community service, because the time spent on me is less time soliciting (read: mildly harassing) others. :) Now if they act belligerent, they definitely made a mistake ...

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Originally Posted by bongart

There is no reason why anyone in this game should be polite to strangers. Ever.

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There should not generally be a response to a mass greeting. If everyone entering a region greeted everyone else, and all were expected to reply, LOTRO would be nothing but a big chat. Now, if you had asked a polite question and got nothing but crickets, you'd have a legitimate complaint.

But what I always wonder is, what do the recruiters get out of the cold-asks? How do they benefit from new recruits?

Why are people getting so worked over over such a simple issue?

Learn to work out simple solutions to simple problems. Don't like blind invites, turn them off. Don't like being disturbed by the 'ding'? Turn it off too.

Its just a game.

Social etiquette definitely goes out the window the moment you log on. Of course for some there is a modicum of decorum and will follow social standards and norms and be polite.

Sometimes its just better to send a blind invite and be rejected than spend 1 min to ask and still get rejected anyways. If the blind invite gets rejected, people should get the message that the other party is just not interested.

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Originally Posted by Kira_kun

Why are people getting so worked over over such a simple issue?

Learn to work out simple solutions to simple problems. Don't like blind invites, turn them off. Don't like being disturbed by the 'ding'? Turn it off too.

Its just a game.

Social etiquette definitely goes out the window the moment you log on. Of course for some there is a modicum of decorum and will follow social standards and norms and be polite.

Sometimes its just better to send a blind invite and be rejected than spend 1 min to ask and still get rejected anyways. If the blind invite gets rejected, people should get the message that the other party is just not interested.

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I wouldn't be a member of a kinship that would blind invite me. /Groucho Marx

Back when I had characters that were not in a kinship, I just dismissed the blind invite window and ignored the inviter. (Not ignored by command, but simply paid no attention to them.) I did have 2-3 out of scores who repeated the invite and persisted. Those got a character ignore.

About 1/3 were tells asking me if I were interested in talking about their kinship and/ro joining. They got polite responses to their polite tells.

Blind invites are not really a scourge on the game, but they can be annoying when, by chance, you get 5-10 of them during a visit to Bree.

Blind invites I ignore, and, if the person persists, I do not waste my time putting them on my ignore list, chances are very good I won't run into them again so what's the point. Sparring invites are turned off on all my characters. If someone I don't know sends me a /t, I will politely respond with "hello, may I help you?" If the person genuinely needs help and I am not busy, I'll gladly help or will say "I'm sorry, I'm busy right now." I can only recall ever having received a couple of blind Kinship invites and the answer is always "no thank you" with a smiley at the end.

One thing I do have a gripe about is when someone is standing in the middle of the 21st Hall spamming for Moria Instance members, you respond that you are interested and are promptly ignored. The very least that could be expected is a "sorry, we are full" message. It's just common courtesy really.

It costs absolutely nothing to be polite you know. :)

I don't accept blind kinship invites.

I just reply 'thank you for the invite but I'm not interested'.

It's my way of saying I prefer more verbal communication without actually demanding it from the other person: by example. If they catch up on it, great, if they don't, fair enough as well.

Also, the person sending the blind invite could actually still be someone you'd really like. I don't see the need to burn bridges based on one action.

As I am in the Kinship - I always explain that my mains are in Kinship. Usually get answer like "ok, good luck" and that's it.
I mainly used to get invites like "hello", then some advertising. Cold invites - either do not respond or explain I'm already in Kinship.

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Originally Posted by Nosdracir

I wouldn't be a member of a kinship that would blind invite me.

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Nor would I.

The first thing I do when I make a new character is disable spar and kinship invites. Not because I'm an antisocial person, but because I hate invite pop-ups while I'm doing stuff.

Tells, I don't really mind too much. If it's a kin invite I just politely decline, same with spar. If it's a fellowship invite out of the blue then I'll ask what they need help with if they didn't say so in the first tell and if I'm not too busy or about ready to log off then I will help.

Back to the OP though, a cold kin invite is just bad manners and poor salesmanship. I have a hard time believing that a quality kin would just spam cold invites for the simple fact that if anyone actually does answer and join then what kind of player do you really think you're going to get? Same reason (besides it being rude IMHO) that I wouldn't join a kin that spams cold invites: what kind of quality would you expect from one that is too lazy to at least post something in chat? Or that is willing to accept anyone bright enough to click the 'accept' button? As far as gender bias goes, I haven't noticed any. Before I started my own kin of my alts so I could have a giant house, I would get kin invites on both male and female characters pretty evenly. What I did notice is that they usually occurred in the starter areas, particularly in the Bree crafting hall. I would get one or two invites almost every time I was there.

Bottom line, I don't get the logic of it. If you want something from someone, the least you can do is send a polite tell stating what it is you want. Otherwise, to me anyway, you just seem lazy or rude or like you're fifteen; perhaps all the above. Even when I give stuff away I send a tell. Awhile back I gave away a pretty good teal staff; I looked around for a LM of that level, found one, saw that they could use it and sent them a tell offering it to them for free with the item linked in so they could see it. I didn't just walk up to them and start a secure trade. It's always good to have a little manners and to be polite and one of the best things about this game is more people (in my experience anyway) are than are not.

I think it's mostly about looks.

My main (female hunter) got invites now and then.

My second character is a female elven champion. I gave her the most dented and rusty looking armour I could find; in addition she rides that skeleton-painted horse. She looks badass, which gives people the (very wrong) impression of an experienced player (lol :p). Kinship-invitation spam wherever she goes, it's insane.

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Originally Posted by BoilingPie

I think it's mostly about looks.

My main (female hunter) got invites now and then.

My second character is a female elven champion. I gave her the most dented and rusty looking armour I could find; in addition she rides that skeleton-painted horse. She looks badass, which gives people the (very wrong) impression of an experienced player (lol :p). Kinship-invitation spam wherever she goes, it's insane.

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I have never been blind-invited by anyone who was in my immediate vicinity, so I know for me, it has nothing to do with looks. :)

It happens to me all the time when I am leveling a low level toon. I just politely tell them that I am an officer of another kin and will be joining them shortly and thank the person for the invite.

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Originally Posted by Brandon_Blackbird

I have never been blind-invited by anyone who was in my immediate vicinity, so I know for me, it has nothing to do with looks. :)

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Or maybe champions are more in demand then hunters? All I can say is that the increase in kin-requests is striking, and it's often from people around her.

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Originally Posted by Moskvich

Ever been sent a 'tell,' out of the blue, inviting you to join a kinship? ...

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I've received a few 'cold' kinship invites which were join invitations with no talk beforehand and a few 'lukewarm' invites which involved talk before an invite, but most of the invites I've seen have been glff ads only. None of the invites bothered me. What does bother me is sending 'cold' fellowship invites and getting declined. That happens too often. Come on people, I'm trying to finish a quest or a slayer deed! I don't wanna have to compete with you. I've had accepts maybe one time in ten. And don't say "Let's talk first" cuz I just wanna finish the chore and move on.

(Sorry, no sympathy from me. I even accept blind fellowship invites, most were dead ends, but some I enjoyed.)

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Originally Posted by Moskvich

Ever been sent a 'tell,' out of the blue, inviting you to join a kinship? This morning, I was out in the Lone Lands with my level 27 minstrel, an elf maid. Suddenly, the tell-tale 'ding', announcing the arrival of a chat message. "Would you like to join our kinship?" My first impulse was to respond, 'er, what? why would I?' There had not been so much as a hello-how-do-you-do, no boilerplate description announcing the name and rank etc etc of the kinship. Just, "would you like to join our kinship?" I assumed on the spot that such rough-around-the-edges social skills must have belonged to a very young player, chronologically speaking, so I politely replied, "no thank you," and continued killing creatures in search of their sturdy hides. But the incident got me thinking. And it's by no means the first time I have been a recipient of the cold kinship invite. In fact, it's been something of a sociological experiment. This character happens to be my newest. I have a lvl 85 human LM who belongs to a kinship, and has belonged to the same kinship since, oh, level 15. I have a lvl 28 human burglar who belongs to no kinship and never has; ditto, for my lvl 43 elven hunter. Interestingly, all the latter three characters are male. None of them, ever, received a cold kinship invite. (My LM himself responded to an announcement in Bree about such-and-such a kin, was interested in the description, and contacted the kinship's leader.) So, what's up with inviting only female characters to join a kinship? and what, in the name of wonder, is up with the cold kinship invite?? It's a small sample - a sample of me - but I'm wondering whether others have had a similar experience, or a different experience. What are your thoughts?

EDIT: this is at least the fourth time that my female elf minstrel has received a cold kinship invite. Makes me think that elves, or minstrels, or females must be very popular members of kinships.

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I suspect you just got a random /tell from a kinship that wants more members
and observed that your female elf minstrel isn't in a kinship yet.

I've never gotten a random kinship invite, but then all my characters have been
IN a kinship since a few minutes past character creation. Starting with open beta.

Edit: I have received the occasional cold fellowship invite, but I /tell them "No,
thank you," and they've always taken that for an answer.

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Originally Posted by BoilingPie

Or maybe champions are more in demand then hunters? All I can say is that the increase in kin-requests is striking, and it's often from people around her.

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Not sure what class has to do with this. I've been blind-invited on every class, usually immediately when I come out of the intro, by someone who is in Bree or Moria.